Do you see a strong economic recovery for the U.S. . . .ever?

[Barry Goldwater]

Seriously? Touting Andrew Jackson? The man who *against the order of the Supreme Court* threw people out of their homes due to their race, moved them to a desolate prairie with little hope of survival and raffled off their homes and farms just in time for the harvest? I guess that's one way to help one group toward economic recovery.

 

Just as one can extol FDR for the New Deal or his courage in the face of the Nazis while not endorsing Japanese internment camps, I can recognize Jackson's justified suspicions of centralized banking without heralding his abuse of the Choctaws and Seminoles. Maybe if Jackson had Kelo v. New London for precedent he wouldn't be so vilified...

[Slartibartfast]

Just as one can extol FDR for the New Deal or his courage in the face of the Nazis while not endorsing Japanese internment camps, I can recognize Jackson's justified suspicions of centralized banking without heralding his abuse of the Choctaws and Seminoles. Maybe if Jackson had Kelo v. New London for precedent he wouldn't be so vilified...

 

 

Kelo v. New London doesn't have anything to do with relocation of a people across thousands of miles and killing 1/3 of them in the process.

[TravelingChris]

I am quite conservative but Andrew Jackson is probably by least favorite president. His decision not to follow the rule of law and in the process kill lots of people is only part of the reason I don't like him. (Just in case anyone thinks that only moderates or liberals dislike him).

[usetoschool]

I will have to reply to this later (I'm off for now), but I disagree with Jackson on a *lot* of things.

 

That's fair - it just sounded like a blanket reaction based on one very vile policy. Your historical knowledge is much deeper than mine so I will be looking for a more in depth answer about economic policies.

[bbkaren]

My goodness, is this thread about the economic recovery (or lack thereof), or historical atrocities?

 

...as BG mentioned, can't we separate good policies from bad, and let them stand on their own merits?

 

What we face in the fairly-near future is pretty serious - in spite of what the media will have us think, printing more money is NOT going to help us.

[KristinaBreece]

That's fair - it just sounded like a blanket reaction based on one very vile policy. Your historical knowledge is much deeper than mine so I will be looking for a more in depth answer about economic policies.

 

I always look forward to what Mrs. Mungo has to say in threads like this.

I'm staying out of this thread except to lurk. ;)

 

:lurk5:

[Mrs Mungo]

I am still out, and cannot make a long post from my phone. :tongue_smilie: I knew I didn't have time for a long post, but couldn't just let it go. I am sorry, but quoting Andrew Jackson is akin to quoting Sadaam Hussein or Mussolini at me. There are plenty of fiscal conservatives out there to quote. Not that I would describe Jackson as a conservative, he wanted to undo things planned and set up by the founding fathers. He was more of an extreme libertarian to the point of disobeying the constitution (as evidenced by his actions in Indian Removal). If our country isn't founded on the constitution, the upon what is it founded?

Edited September 28, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[bbkaren]

I always look forward to what Mrs. Mungo has to say in threads like this.

I'm staying out of this thread except to lurk. ;)

 

:lurk5:

 

Unnecessary drama in what would be a very interesting and insightful thread.

[justamouse]

Unnecessary drama in what would be a very interesting and insightful thread.

 

You are very, very new. And in an incredibly conservative part of the country.

 

Mrs. Mungo is an incredibly respected member of the board, whose knowledge of history is pretty amazing. She's earned our respect.

 

Just say'n.

[bbkaren]

No problem, thanks.

[Bootsie]

Yeah, but they're also working far longer hours than more prosperous countries like Canada. And in the past, Americans have been able to enjoy more leisure time, and still enjoy prosperity. So I don't buy the "American workers are driving our economy into a slump" argument. As far as I can tell, it was irresponsible banking regulations, combined with greed, that did us in.

 

 

How do you determine one country is more prosperous than another?

 

Canada has a lower per capita GDP than the US. Canada has also had a higher inflation rate and a higher national debt relative to GDP than the US in the past year.

[Rosie_0801]

This.

 

Me, I wonder what will replace materialism. Culture needs a philosophy, a reason for existence. The new reality will be extremely traumatic for so many people. Are we coming upon a great cultural/philosophical shift?

 

Environmentalism has gained a bit of ground amongst certain sectors of the population here.

 

Rosie

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

OK! My question is this. . .is it because people here WON'T take lower pay so jobs can stay here? I guess I just don't understand how it's cheaper to send a whole Unit to India. I'm in MI, high unemployment rate and yet see companies advertising for workers. Are workers unwilling to take 'less' or have they left the state?

 

IMHO it is sheer greed that is causing our jobs to be sent overseas:(. How can we compete with people who make slave wages?

[Tabrett]

IMHO it is sheer greed that is causing our jobs to be sent overseas:(. How can we compete with people who make slave wages?

:iagree:

I don't care how educated the populace in the US becomes. HOW are we to compete with the low wages of other countries. I just looked up how much IT jobs pay in India. It is equivalent to 12-20k:confused:.

We can't compete with that. If our salaries are lowered that much, educated people will be living in government projects and the rest of the populace in card board boxes!

 

This is how I interpret the phrase, "We need to compete globally with math and science."="We need to lower our wages to be equal with other countries."

 

To win jobs "globally" you have to pay slave wages. If that is not true, name one country where our jobs have been sent because they are better equipped and also equally payed? Jobs are lost to cheap labor. Period.

We ALL can't be engineers and scientists. We need middle income work for the masses.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Tabrett

[creekland]

I am sorry, but quoting Andrew Jackson is akin to quoting Sadaam Hussein or Mussolini at me.

 

Many, many moons ago when I was in the AF getting training (as an officer) we studied Hitler and Mussolini (not Sadaam as it was too long ago) and many others with our instructor pointing out the "good" things about their leadership for us to learn from. He was not saying they were good "people" or had good "policies" toward others they didn't care for, but whether one likes it or not, both were rather good "leaders" and there were things worth learning from them.

 

I doubt anyone in today's age would argue that Jackson did right with the Indians and many may not care for his trumping his Presidential powers in general, but there are plenty who would agree with some of his economic desires (and others who disagree).

 

It's helpful to separate different aspects about different people when considering history IMO.

[KristinaBreece]

Unnecessary drama in what would be a very interesting and insightful thread.

 

It wasn't meant to be. I don't have anything to add to the conversation, but I wanted to let Mrs. Mungo & the poster I quoted know that I, too, am looking very forward to seeing what Mrs. M has to say on the subject. I find that, whether I agree with her on a given topic or not, I can always learn from what she posts. It was meant with the utmost respect, I promise.

[MSNative]

Did y'all see this WSJ editorial by Charles Schwab? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204422404576596681526254692.html

 

Short and sweet and I think it sort of begins to answer OPs question.

[Mergath]

I think our civilization (at least, as we know it) is in the process of collapsing. That's not to say that nothing will ever rise from the ashes, but the way we've been living could only go on for so long.

 

I read a really interesting book that summed it up well. I'm not an economist by any stretch of the imagination, but the overall point of the book was that capitalism can't exist without continuing expansion, and our country has basically expanded as much as it can. No idea what the book was called. I'll come back and post it if I remember.

 

I spent a lot of time over the last couple of years feeling really inadequate because we don't own a home to raise our dd in, but recently, I'm thankful every day that we're in a good, affordable rental.

[FairProspects]

:iagree:

I don't care how educated the populace in the US becomes. HOW are we to compete with the low wages of other countries. I just looked up how much IT jobs pay in India. It is equivalent to 12-20k:confused:.

We can't compete with that. If our salaries are lowered that much, educated people will be living in government projects and the rest of the populace in card board boxes!

 

This is how I interpret the phrase, "We need to compete globally with math and science."="We need to lower our wages to be equal with other countries."

 

To win jobs "globally" you have to pay slave wages. If that is not true, name one country where our jobs have been sent because they are better equipped and also equally payed? Jobs are lost to cheap labor. Period.

We ALL can't be engineers and scientists. We need middle income work for the masses.

 

Well, speaking extremely long term, I suspect the race to the bottom will stop with a worldwide minimum wage. Eventually workers will revolt and demand higher wages (as you are already seeing in silk mills in China), the companies will move to an even lower paying country and so on and so on, until there is no where cheaper to go that is politically stable enough with enough infrastructure and it will all equalize.

 

We are seeing the growing pains of the new world paradigm of globalization. Its a bit like the beginning of the industrial revolution. The world and it's economies will adapt even if that adaptation leads to becoming one economy. We just don't know what this evolution will look like yet.

[Serenade]

Did y'all see this WSJ editorial by Charles Schwab? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204422404576596681526254692.html

 

Short and sweet and I think it sort of begins to answer OPs question.

 

Makes sense to me.

[Deb in NZ]

Watching the economic downturn from outside the States for the past 20 years has given me a different perspective. The lifestyle that we all grew up with in America is not one that could last long term. In many way I am grateful that my path in life led me to live in 3rd world countries for many years. This taught me what we really need to survive. I am blessed that we now live in my dh's hometown & are able to offer our dc more opportunities than we were when in the Pacific Islands, but we know we can happily live with less. Over that past 20 years, each time I return to VT to visit family I am amazed at how materialistic the American culture is. What you have is highly valued, thus this fear of losing the ability to have the latest & greatest new thing. iPads, Kindles, iMacbooks, smart phones, etc.---these things & more are seen as necessities of life. Until Americans have a change of attitiude towards needs & wants the American economy is treading water at best. Build an economy on what the world needs to survive & it will have a more solid chance of survival.

 

Economies, such as India, are able to prosper even with many paid low wages (by American standards) is that the needs of the people are met & their wants are simple. Would they love to have iPads, etc.? most likely, but they are not left feeling deprived by not having one.

 

JMHO,

Edited September 29, 2011 by Deb in NZ

[justamouse]

IMHO it is sheer greed that is causing our jobs to be sent overseas:(. How can we compete with people who make slave wages?

 

Not only slave wages, but we PAY for all of that regulation, and people SAY they don't want it, and then on the same hand say that they don't want Melamine in their baby food (China). Or, you could have a libertarian say, "hey, let the market decide, that company will go out of business if it's bad," yes, true, but after how many people die? And do you really want that to be YOUR kid.

 

 

I think our civilization (at least, as we know it) is in the process of collapsing. That's not to say that nothing will ever rise from the ashes, but the way we've been living could only go on for so long.

 

I read a really interesting book that summed it up well. I'm not an economist by any stretch of the imagination, but the overall point of the book was that capitalism can't exist without continuing expansion, and our country has basically expanded as much as it can. No idea what the book was called. I'll come back and post it if I remember.

 

I spent a lot of time over the last couple of years feeling really inadequate because we don't own a home to raise our dd in, but recently, I'm thankful every day that we're in a good, affordable rental.

 

I can see how you think that. And, some days I think it too. But I also think we can tend to lack the imagination to forsee HOW it could get better because we're slogging through the thick of it. I can forsee some really huge emerging markets. Will they make it? I don't know. I hope they do.

 

The Schwab article is great.

 

What we can do—and absolutely must—is knock down all hurdles that create disincentives for investment in business.

 

A freakin men.

Edited September 29, 2011 by justamouse

[Rosie_0801]

We have some pretty weird tariffs. We're importing apples from NZ because plane fuel has lower tariffs than land fuel. The apple orchards two hours away are in decline, and for once it has nothing to do with drought. A few years back we were ploughing our oranges into the ground because it was cheaper to import from Brazil. No offense to Brazil or NZ, but I can't see how that is a sensible situation.

 

Rosie

[Tabrett]

We have some pretty weird tariffs. We're importing apples from NZ because plane fuel has lower tariffs than land fuel. The apple orchards two hours away are in decline, and for once it has nothing to do with drought. A few years back we were ploughing our oranges into the ground because it was cheaper to import from Brazil. No offense to Brazil or NZ, but I can't see how that is a sensible situation.

 

Rosie

 

Great point Rosie! That is why I HATE globalization. I don't want to compete on a global market. I wish countries would contract and become more independent-local and less dependent on imports. I think this would help more than people know. But, you can't make gobs of money in big business that way.:glare:

[Free]

Watching the economic downturn from outside the States for the past 20 years has given me a different perspective. The lifestyle that we all grew up with in America is not one that could last long term. In many way I am grateful that my path in life led me to live in 3rd world countries for many years. This taught me what we really need to survive. I am blessed that we now live in my dh's hometown & are able to offer our dc more opportunities than we were when in the Pacific Islands, but we know we can happily live with less. Over that past 20 years, each time I return to VT to visit family I am amazed at how materialistic the American culture is. What you have is highly valued, thus this fear of losing the ability to have the latest & greatest new thing. iPads, Kindles, iMacbooks, smart phones, etc.---these things & more are seen as necessities of life. Until Americans have a change of attitiude towards needs & wants the American economy is treading water at best. Build an economy on what the world needs to survive & it will have a more solid chance of survival.

 

Economies, such as India, are able to prosper even with many paid low wages (by American standards) is that the needs of the people are met & their wants are simple. Would they love to have iPads, etc.? most likely, but they are not left feeling deprived by not having one.

 

JMHO,

 

Thank You Deb! This is an incredibly gracious post.

 

Here is one link to illustrate just how much it takes to fuel the "American way of life". It had to give at some point! This way of life was never meant to be permanent.

[Free]

Great point Rosie! That is why I HATE globalization. I don't want to compete on a global market. I wish countries would contract and become more independent-local and less dependent on imports. I think this would help more than people know. But, you can't make gobs of money in big business that way.:glare:

 

What Rosie is describing has nothing to do with globalization. It has to do with artificially reduced pricing of certain goods and services. Jet fuel can never be cheaper than land fuel. Rosie mentioned Environmentalism as a philosophy that can replace materialism. I agree, I believe that is the only way to create sustainable growth.

 

“Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed†- Mahatma Gandhi

[Vida Winter]

I lived through recovering from the Jimmy Carter years (gas lines, hostage crisis, general being down on everything American), so yes I am hopeful. But the situation is much worse today than it was then, so it will be more difficult. In some ways, it is more serious now (sheer amount of debt, instability of other nations, size of government and unions). In other ways, not as serious (Cold War/Russia). Time will tell. So yes, I think we can recover, but I don't have any illusions about it being easy.

[Rosie_0801]

I wish countries would contract and become more independent-local and less dependent on imports. I think this would help more than people know. But, you can't make gobs of money in big business that way.:glare:

 

I don't know much about economics, but I don't think our importing oranges and apples has anything to do with making large amounts of money so much as consumers wanting cheaper prices. I remember my father being delighted at getting chicken for $1.99 a kilo. There is no way the chicken cost so little to raise. People see that and think regular chicken must be over-priced and who wants to pay over-inflated prices? Of course no one does. I think this problem is not caused by governments but by people not being globally minded enough. But not everyone can afford to be either, so I'm not going to slam the poor for being poor.

 

But those who can afford it should consider how they spend. Dh and I were talking about tithing the other day and we considered that choosing to spend the bit extra on green electricity (which we couldn't comfortably afford atm) is a form of tithing. Anyway, as Deb was saying, downsizing (or upsizing, I guess? -what should I call that :confused:- if we are talking about spending extra on green electricity or sustainably grown food or something) is something you get used to and it no longer feels so radical. Then you start thinking you're some kind of anti-environmental bum and you ought to actually do something instead of just blabbering on about it. :lol:

 

Rosie- the fridge and dryer free bum who will never give up online book shopping. :tongue_smilie:

[kubiac]

Some parts of the economy will collapse and disappear and die.

 

Other parts of the economy, that we cannot yet imagine or see, will blossom and grow and flourish.

 

The U.S. economy will be fine, and the American people will be fine, so long as nobody has a conniption fit about the end of the flashingly brief 10-year-period from 1992-~2000 when we were in a single superpower world.

 

I really believe everything's gonna be OK, just mind your business and don't expend too much energy worrying about capital-E Everything.

 

Also, plant trees.

[FairyMom]

This is what I hope for as well.

 

What I'm afraid of, is the middle class pretty much completely disappearing, to be replaced by a serfdom of low-wage, working poor people. Interspersed in these depressed communities, are the occasional enclave of small very wealthy corporate owners and other rich individuals, whose walled off town maintains its own guards with AK-47s to keep out the riff raff of the surrounding ghettos.

 

Basically, reversion to a modern day feudalism.

 

It may seem fantastic, but I don't see how continuing wage depression, and the fact that now 41% of new jobs are "low wage" can continue without serious social repercussions.

 

It has happened more recently than most people realize. Here in our country.

.

[KristinaBreece]

Some parts of the economy will collapse and disappear and die.

 

Other parts of the economy, that we cannot yet imagine or see, will blossom and grow and flourish.

 

The U.S. economy will be fine, and the American people will be fine, so long as nobody has a conniption fit about the end of the flashingly brief 10-year-period from 1992-~2000 when we were in a single superpower world.

 

I really believe everything's gonna be OK, just mind your business and don't expend too much energy worrying about capital-E Everything.

 

Also, plant trees.

 

I know I said I was staying out of this one, but I have to jump in with an :iagree:.

 

I think everything will be fine. Different, yes. But we're not going to wake up next week and find ourselves in a society that resemble "The Book of Eli" or anything, KWIM?

[Mrs Mungo]

Many, many moons ago when I was in the AF getting training (as an officer) we studied Hitler and Mussolini (not Sadaam as it was too long ago) and many others with our instructor pointing out the "good" things about their leadership for us to learn from. He was not saying they were good "people" or had good "policies" toward others they didn't care for, but whether one likes it or not, both were rather good "leaders" and there were things worth learning from them.

 

I'm just going to quote John Lennon, who was speaking to the opposite end of the spectrum at the time, "but if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, You ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow."

 

IMHO it is sheer greed that is causing our jobs to be sent overseas:(. How can we compete with people who make slave wages?

 

I don't care how educated the populace in the US becomes. HOW are we to compete with the low wages of other countries. I just looked up how much IT jobs pay in India. It is equivalent to 12-20k:confused:.

We can't compete with that. If our salaries are lowered that much, educated people will be living in government projects and the rest of the populace in card board boxes!

 

I partly agree with this, and it's already happening. More and more of the jobs in the US pay minimum wage and/or offer only part-time hours. A minimum wage job puts you at the poverty level. Even at $10.65/hour (well above the federal minimum wage) and receiving 40 hours a week, a family of four will still be below the poverty line.

 

Did y'all see this WSJ editorial by Charles Schwab? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204422404576596681526254692.html

 

Short and sweet and I think it sort of begins to answer OPs question.

 

I can agree that we need more entrepreneurs. Where I disagree is the implication that a small business is the same as a big business. That is extremely misleading. Small businesses pay much more in taxes and receive fewer tax credits than big businesses. How can you make small businesses more competitive? Better able to pay wages and insurance? Take the tax credits AWAY from the companies that are firing workers in order to give millions and millions of dollars to their shareholders and CEOs.

 

Well, speaking extremely long term, I suspect the race to the bottom will stop with a worldwide minimum wage. Eventually workers will revolt and demand higher wages (as you are already seeing in silk mills in China), the companies will move to an even lower paying country and so on and so on, until there is no where cheaper to go that is politically stable enough with enough infrastructure and it will all equalize.

 

We are seeing the growing pains of the new world paradigm of globalization. Its a bit like the beginning of the industrial revolution. The world and it's economies will adapt even if that adaptation leads to becoming one economy. We just don't know what this evolution will look like yet.

 

I agree that this will happen at some point in the future. I do not see it happening in our lifetimes. But, these things are speeding up all the time.

 

Some parts of the economy will collapse and disappear and die.

 

Other parts of the economy, that we cannot yet imagine or see, will blossom and grow and flourish.

 

This has always been true, it will always be true.

 

The U.S. economy will be fine, and the American people will be fine, so long as nobody has a conniption fit about the end of the flashingly brief 10-year-period from 1992-~2000 when we were in a single superpower world.

 

I really believe everything's gonna be OK, just mind your business and don't expend too much energy worrying about capital-E Everything.

 

I tend to agree. I think this is a blip and I think certain people are trying to capitalize on it in the true sense of the word.

 

The truth is there have been phases in US history: those where the worker and middle class flourish and business makes money, but not insane amounts of cash; then there are phases where business makes insane amounts of cash while workers and labor suffer. The American economy does best when the workers are doing best. When workers aren't doing well, then they are subsidized by the government. This is CORPORATE welfare, allowing companies to pay less because the government is making up the difference.

 

If not for the government making up the difference, those people would clean houses or farm their own food until labor reached a breaking point and business had to pay more. That would be happening now except for two things: businesses are moving to cheaper locations on the globe (and there is always someplace cheaper, make no mistake about that India and China) and because of the cost of health care. Wal-Mart and McDonald's offer health care insurance *because* that is a way of luring in and keeping decent workers.

 

Half of our economy being partially supported by the government and tax breaks isn't a good answer. But, you cannot just cut those people off when they ARE working and paying taxes and continue to give corporations tax breaks for not hiring and paying below-poverty-level-wages. That is what some people want to do right now, and it is something that I think could cause a real break in our economy. *It has happened before* in the age of the robber barons.

[Mrs Mungo]

That's what the bubbles are about. A false expansion to inflate the economy, then when that fails, there will be another bubble in the works. Just look to the recent past, dotcom, housing & construction....the next bubble? Gold? Green? China? The Dollar?

 

Entertainment. The industry is already crying that pirating and music sharing is costing them money. But, the truth is the industry is pricing themselves out of a job.

 

Thomas Friedman talks about this in relation to the sports industry, but I think his reasoning is wrong. He talks about empty sports stadiums and says that televised games mean that people don't go to the ballpark anymore. But, the truth is, people aren't taking their kids to the ballpark anymore because it is *too expensive* for the average family. You want to sit in the second level at a Red Sox game? The seats *alone* are $99 each. We have a local summer league, the tickets are $5 for general admission. On Tuesdays all concessions are $1. The stands are *packed* for nearly every game.

 

Netflix and Redbox are flourishing because families don't go to the movies every weekend any more and nobody wants to buy a movie that they haven't seen.

[4everHis]

Entertainment. The industry is already crying that pirating and music sharing is costing them money. But, the truth is the industry is pricing themselves out of a job.

 

Thomas Friedman talks about this in relation to the sports industry, but I think his reasoning is wrong. He talks about empty sports stadiums and says that televised games mean that people don't go to the ballpark anymore. But, the truth is, people aren't taking their kids to the ballpark anymore because it is *too expensive* for the average family. You want to sit in the second level at a Red Sox game? The seats *alone* are $99 each. We have a local summer league, the tickets are $5 for general admission. On Tuesdays all concessions are $1. The stands are *packed* for nearly every game.

 

Netflix and Redbox are flourishing because families don't go to the movies every weekend any more and nobody wants to buy a movie that they haven't seen.

 

:iagree:

[Free]

Entertainment. The industry is already crying that pirating and music sharing is costing them money. But, the truth is the industry is pricing themselves out of a job.

 

Thomas Friedman talks about this in relation to the sports industry, but I think his reasoning is wrong. He talks about empty sports stadiums and says that televised games mean that people don't go to the ballpark anymore. But, the truth is, people aren't taking their kids to the ballpark anymore because it is *too expensive* for the average family. You want to sit in the second level at a Red Sox game? The seats *alone* are $99 each. We have a local summer league, the tickets are $5 for general admission. On Tuesdays all concessions are $1. The stands are *packed* for nearly every game.

 

Netflix and Redbox are flourishing because families don't go to the movies every weekend any more and nobody wants to buy a movie that they haven't seen.

 

I agree with this completely. Especially movie and music pricing - it is so inflated that it is not even close to being reasonable.

[Bootsie]

Entertainment. The industry is already crying that pirating and music sharing is costing them money. But, the truth is the industry is pricing themselves out of a job.

 

Thomas Friedman talks about this in relation to the sports industry, but I think his reasoning is wrong. He talks about empty sports stadiums and says that televised games mean that people don't go to the ballpark anymore. But, the truth is, people aren't taking their kids to the ballpark anymore because it is *too expensive* for the average family. You want to sit in the second level at a Red Sox game? The seats *alone* are $99 each. We have a local summer league, the tickets are $5 for general admission. On Tuesdays all concessions are $1. The stands are *packed* for nearly every game.

 

Netflix and Redbox are flourishing because families don't go to the movies every weekend any more and nobody wants to buy a movie that they haven't seen.

 

Yes, but those $99 Red Sox tickets are sold out, also. Thus, basic economics would say that these tickets are not overpriced.

[Mrs Mungo]

Yes, but those $99 Red Sox tickets are sold out, also. Thus, basic economics would say that these tickets are not overpriced.

 

Maybe the Red Sox were a bad example since they have such a tiny stadium in a big *tourist* city with a lot of baseball history? :D My point it that from a practical standpoint? You are seeing fewer *families* at major league sporting events. That will cause problems down the road because the kids missing those events now will not have a history or family culture of attending the games.

[justamouse]

Yes, but those $99 Red Sox tickets are sold out, also. Thus, basic economics would say that these tickets are not overpriced.

 

that's because they're bought as business perks, though I have no stats to back that up. I just know that most times that we go, they're boxes held yearly by companies.

[LizzyBee]

I think we are seeing a re-set that will not be temporary.

[Tammyla]

:iagree:

 

I think we are seeing a re-set that will not be temporary.

[Mrs Mungo]

The historical data show that it's not as bad as previous downturns in the economy, even downturns in the recent past.

 

I think there is a whole lot of political rhetoric/info-tainment coloring people's opinions versus real information.

[Tabrett]

What Rosie is describing has nothing to do with globalization. It has to do with artificially reduced pricing of certain goods and services. Jet fuel can never be cheaper than land fuel. Rosie mentioned Environmentalism as a philosophy that can replace materialism. I agree, I believe that is the only way to create sustainable growth.

 

“Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed†- Mahatma Gandhi

 

It does have to do with globiliztion. If countries would used their own resources when available instead of importing the products, what would the cost of fuel matter? It is wrong to import oranges and plow orange groves down in your own country because it is cheaper to import oranges.

[Amy in NH]

I think our previous economy was falsely inflated by the paper-shuffling/imaginary money mortgage bubble, so it cannot return to that. The actual economy cannot support the same level of economy & lifestyle. I think it will stabilize, but at a different level--less jobs, higher prices.

 

:iagree: It was this, along with the credit-card lifestyle that inflated our economy beyond a sustainable level.

[Jane in NC]

The historical data show that it's not as bad as previous downturns in the economy, even downturns in the recent past.

 

I think there is a whole lot of political rhetoric/info-tainment coloring people's opinions versus real information.

 

Exactly. But do you think that there are also increased expectations on the part of the average middle class American? I am thinking back to Recessions I Have Known (being older than many other board members). Interest rates during the '80's recession were horrible. People who assumed mortgages bought houses that were tiny or old. I do think that many were hoodwinked in the real estate roller coaster ride prior to '08. In my neck of the woods a lot of people bought far more house than they could afford under the assumption that property values would continue to rise (and availability of mortgage products that did not exist in previous recessions).

 

Do some define prosperity as a return to those delusional days?

[justamouse]

Exactly. But do you think that there are also increased expectations on the part of the average middle class American? I am thinking back to Recessions I Have Known (being older than many other board members). Interest rates during the '80's recession were horrible. People who assumed mortgages bought houses that were tiny or old. I do think that many were hoodwinked in the real estate roller coaster ride prior to '08. In my neck of the woods a lot of people bought far more house than they could afford under the assumption that property values would continue to rise (and availability of mortgage products that did not exist in previous recessions).

 

Do some define prosperity as a return to those delusional days?

 

I LOLed at that. :D Still chuckling.

[Mrs Mungo]

Exactly. But do you think that there are also increased expectations on the part of the average middle class American? I am thinking back to Recessions I Have Known (being older than many other board members). Interest rates during the '80's recession were horrible. People who assumed mortgages bought houses that were tiny or old. I do think that many were hoodwinked in the real estate roller coaster ride prior to '08. In my neck of the woods a lot of people bought far more house than they could afford under the assumption that property values would continue to rise (and availability of mortgage products that did not exist in previous recessions).

 

Do some define prosperity as a return to those delusional days?

 

I do think there was (is) a problem in the real estate world. I think it is sort of equalizing right now. Do I think properties in expensive areas will return to their over-inflated prices? Yes, I do. Do I think that it will *again* be a problem and that they will *again* be over-inflated? Yes. Thinking that it's a problem and thinking those days will return are not exclusive thoughts.

[usetoschool]

Just sitting in the car at soccer practice last night and this comes on the radio (NPR) - thought it was interesting in light of this thread. This part caught my attention because of what some previous posters have said.

 

THOMAS HOENIG: In a world of instant gratification, we have had two decades in this country of consuming more than we produce by a considerable margin.

 

MORRIS: No country can do that forever, he says. Even though the Fed keeps trying to goose the economy with cheap money, the economy can no longer jump.

 

HOENIG: So that's why I have systematically opposed the use of money as a mechanism to solve all of our problems.

[Mrs Mungo]

THOMAS HOENIG: In a world of instant gratification, we have had two decades in this country of consuming more than we produce by a considerable margin.

 

I agree that this is a problem. Lack of manufacturing is a problem.

[Jryanbass]

..

Edited April 23 by Jryanbass

[elegantlion]

Exactly. But do you think that there are also increased expectations on the part of the average middle class American? I am thinking back to Recessions I Have Known (being older than many other board members). Interest rates during the '80's recession were horrible. People who assumed mortgages bought houses that were tiny or old. I do think that many were hoodwinked in the real estate roller coaster ride prior to '08. In my neck of the woods a lot of people bought far more house than they could afford under the assumption that property values would continue to rise (and availability of mortgage products that did not exist in previous recessions).

 

Do some define prosperity as a return to those delusional days?

 

I know we(dh and I) were brought up to believe in the building investment in real estate. Thankfully we got out from under the unaffordable house before it became an issue, but we've watched the sprawl overtake once affordable areas.

 

I feel like we've moved back in time, not in a bad way. We are in a small town, not far outside a large metropolitan area. Our expenses have been cut drastically, at least 50% in the last year. We are definitely experiencing a simpler lifestyle.

 

I was just discussing this issue with my Dad. He sees people in city being stuck with higher, almost ghastly, utility bills as cost of maintaining infrastructure rises.