Uh oh. Bb gun and neighbor dogs.

[Liz CA]

I don't view this from a "do bb's hurt" stance but I have been very adamant teaching that ds can never point his bb gun at a living thing. The fact that the dogs bark is a different issue imho. Dogs can be trained not to yelp every time a neighbor steps outside.

[Lizzie in Ma]

I honestly think you attempted to deflect the blame a bit with the barking issue. That probably just got your neighbour more frustrated and upset.

 

It should have been, "I'm so sorry. My son will (face these consequences and make it up to you in these ways). Thank you for telling me." Full stop.

 

No more BB gun for at least a good month as punishment. Volunteer a bit with a local shelter as a character builder and apologize to the neighbour and make it up in some way to her. Maybe walking the dogs or mowing her lawn.

 

And, if I were you, I'd go over and apologize for not seeming to take it seriously enough and to let her know your son's world was about to tip upside down for a bit. :001_smile:

 

I'm sorry but I've got to agree. Shooting animals for fun not food is just wrong and someone's pet? Very wrong. :grouphug:

[Teachin'Mine]

Scarlett if you don't want the dog to bark at you, take the suggestion your neighbor made and get to know the dog. Now isn't the right time - obviously, but in the future, go over and talk with her and arrange for a time for each of you to go over and spend time with the dogs. Learn their name, give them some treats, etc.. You may have to do this a few times for them to get to know you well enough. After that, if they start barking, all you have to do is say "hi" to them using their names and they'll probably stop barking. IOW they'll know you and have no reason to bark.

 

I would suggest that part of your son's punishment should involve doing work for your neighbor - of her choosing. If he's working in the yard, the dogs will get to know him and he them. They might actually become friends - you never know. Use this to create a positive instead of allowing him to continue with a hatred towards these dogs and an attitude that it's no big deal to shoot at a pet. My advice would be completely different if they're actually vicious, but it doesn't sound at all like they are.

[Danestress]

I'm sorry but I don't think "making nice" is going to "cut it"...I don't even know how you start that conversation.

 

"I'm sorry my son shot at your dog, but the dog wouldn't shut up. Here's a gift basket. Have a nice day." :confused:

 

I get this feeling you really want to find fault with me. I think if you read through my posts on this thread, you will find that I was pretty clear in my disapproval of the child's behavior. I don't know what you want to call it. I call it "making nice." But yes, I would probably take over some gifts for the dogs, apologize for minimizing my son's behavior, apologize for being defensive, recognize that he did a very wrong thing, and do my best to make things better. I would also make my son really really wish he hadn't done that.

 

I've had my share of dog related neighborhood conflict. Being on good terms with neighbors is important to me. I don't like conflict. So I would make nice. Sorry if that's not good enough for you.

[boscopup]

Yeah, I don't need a piano and I don't think he was 'acting out.' He wanted a barking dog to stop barking. That is all.

 

That's not a good excuse.

 

The cows nextdoor sometimes moo really loudly all night after their calves have been removed. I don't go out and shoot them with a BB gun to shut them up. That's cruelty to animals. It's just not right. My neighbors would call the police if I did shoot their cows, despite them not being attached to their cows like we usually are to our dogs. It's not about comparing animals with humans, but just treating living beings with some decency. Your son was not in danger, and no one else was either. He was trying to hurt a dog.

 

I just don't see how it could ever be ok to purposely shoot a dog that is not harming you or your animals? :confused:

 

In the scenario you described in your OP, I would have been shocked beyond belief at the actions of my son. I would have called my son immediately, gave him the biggest chewing out of his life, and made him go apologize profusely to the neighbor. I don't care how annoying the dog is or how much I hate the dog. My son would know the Wrath of Mom for such blatant misuse of a gun and trying to hurt an innocent animal. It would be a VERY LONG time before he'd see a gun again.

[Karen in CO]

Now, see, THIS sounds reasonable.

 

That sounds reasonable. Also drums or trumpet lessons for your son sounds reasonable. You might also get him a didgeridoo, but only as an outside toy.

:grouphug:

[ChrissySC]

Need a drink. I'm offering Bailey's! ;)

 

 

After the last few weeks of where this board has gone .... you had better share!:lol:

[UnsinkableKristen]

That sounds reasonable. Also drums or trumpet lessons for your son sounds reasonable.

:grouphug:

 

:lol:

[Alison in KY]

:D For the record, I don't think you or your son are doomed or horrible folk. I just think your past issues with the dogs have drained you of empathy for your neighbour on this one. It happens. I once had a neighbour with a beagle that was never leashed and came over to our house to tip over our compost and bay at our dog when she was on her chain. When it was finally hit and killed by car I had not a bit of remorse.

 

So you've just got to take my word for this and fake it. :D Apologize to the neighbours for not taking it seriously and assure her that your son will be punished. Not that he won't do it again, but that he will be punished. She just needs to feel you take her feelings seriously and will do something about it. That's generally what people are looking for in this situation.

 

ETA: I get that your son won't do it again, it's just that the neighbour needs to be assured that you're taking steps to make sure that doesn't happen, that's all.

:grouphug:

 

:iagree:

 

Here's a :grouphug: for you Scarlett.

 

Alison

[curlylocks]

I get this feeling you really want to find fault with me. I think if you read through my posts on this thread, you will find that I was pretty clear in my disapproval of the child's behavior. I don't know what you want to call it. I call it "making nice." But yes, I would probably take over some gifts for the dogs, apologize for minimizing my son's behavior, apologize for being defensive, recognize that he did a very wrong thing, and do my best to make things better. I would also make my son really really wish he hadn't done that.

 

I've had my share of dog related neighborhood conflict. Being on good terms with neighbors is important to me. I don't like conflict. So I would make nice. Sorry if that's not good enough for you.

 

I'm sorry if that's the way it came across...I'm not attempting to find fault with you...I just don't understand the logic.

 

I, too, have had my share of dog-related neighbor conflict. (I don't live in a neighborhood, but I do have horses and chickens.) When the neighbor's dog is here, chasing the animals and my kids, a gift basket isn't going to cut it. (and it certainly wouldn't cut it if the neighbor's son had shot at my animals)

 

That's all I'm saying... :grouphug:

[I talk to the trees]

That sounds reasonable. Also drums or trumpet lessons for your son sounds reasonable. You might also get him a didgeridoo, but only as an outside toy.

:grouphug:

 

Of course, the neighbor should have the right to come over and shoot the drum set if she wants some peace and quiet!

[Natalieclare]

That sounds reasonable. Also drums or trumpet lessons for your son sounds reasonable. You might also get him a didgeridoo, but only as an outside toy.

:grouphug:

 

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[Denisemomof4]

Hmmm.....proper way.....:001_huh: Ok, point taken. He shouldn't have used the bb gun on dog. He won't again. I clearly didn't emphasize (because I didn't know!) how much it was likely to upset her.

 

I guess I could go say, 'Regardless of the reason I'm sorry my ds shot your dog with bb gun. He won't again.'

 

I'd leave the "regardless of the reason" out. I really would.

 

I'm not done reading this thread yet but a big part of your son's problem is that you're not seeing the seriousness of this here. I feel bad because I think you're likely shocked at all our responses, but still, I just don't think you get it yet.

 

I can understand being totally annoyed at a barking dog. I'm a HUGE animal lover, have 40, but I especially love dogs. Their barking/yapping drives even ME crazy. But ....................... I hope you truly understand how WRONG your ds has handled this, and I think you probably have contributed to that.

 

You mention paintballs. Have YOU been shot by one of them? I bought dh and both ds paintball guns a couple of years back. They have a BLAST with them. They tell me I'd love to do it with them. I've seen the HUGE bruises they leave. No thanks. That's from a large PLASTIC, paint filled pellet. NOT METAL.

 

I'm still reading and I hope that by the end of this thread you begin to understand.

[WishboneDawn]

After the last few weeks of where this board has gone .... you had better share!:lol:

 

I am forced to. Alas, with a bun in the oven I can not partake of it myself. *sob*

 

I'll pour one for you and one for Scarlett (love the new avatar Scarlett :D).

[Julie in CA]

Yeah, I'm thinking this is over the top.

I'm sorry, it's tough to be on the end of criticism. :grouphug:

 

BUT....

 

No, it's not over the top, and I think you should be prepared just in case you are contacted by law enforcement/CPS/animal control, etc. You probably won't be, but I can totally see it happening. Your "I'm sorry" sounds an awfully lot like you're not sorry *at all*, and that is one of the reasons that your neighbor might decide to pursue this through legal channels.

[swellmomma]

Can I just say how funny it is that your avatar is full auto kitty?

 

See that kitty does not use the gun responsibly :lol:

 

I like the idea of pooper scooper duty for the OP's son. Back at our old house, ds had tossed an egg out of the upstairs window. It landed on the neighbor's side of the fence and one of their dog's ate it and got sick. (we lived in a duplex, so the fence was practically under my bedroom window) Along with apologizing, and me paying the vet bill, he scooped poop for a full month and the first time was the first scooping of spring, with a whole winter worth of poop in the yard. He never intended to make the dog sick, he wasn't even trying to harm the dogs, he just made a stupid mistake and had to face the consequences. He is very careful when he wants to do an "experiment" that no animals will get hurt by mistake ever since.

 

Kids do very stupid things, I don't think your son is destined to be a sociopath but I do think he needs to see his world come to a screeching halt for this. If I was your neighbor it would have been your response more than his actions that put me over the limit kwim

[higginszoo]

Fake it if you have to, but go apologize again.

 

Then make sure that the gun is put away, returned to dad's house is best. If not, it needs to ONLY be taken out when you or dh have the time to closely supervise him. In various places, children even as young as your child have been arrested and charged, and their parents charged with negligence, which is a whole area that you just don't want to get into, I'm sure.

 

Now that there's bad blood, you'll have to be careful not to give her opportunity to report.

Edited September 2, 2011 by higginszoo

[roxanne23]

I have to say, when I saw the thread title I thought it would be someone looking for an appropriate (read: SERIOUS) punishment for their son. I would be livid if someone shot a bb gun at my dog. Livid. If my child shot at a neighbor's pet, the consequences would be severe and start with a heartfelt apology.

[Tree House Academy]

I haven't read the other responses, but I see there are 18+ pages of them.

 

When I was a kid, the neighbor shot our dog. I hated him for it. To this day, the thought of him shooting my dog with a bb gun makes me so mad I could scream. Deep down, I may still hate him for it.

 

If one of my kids shot a bb at a dog, he would no longer be allowed to have a bb gun and I would be LIVID with him.

 

Bringing up that her dogs bark too much was NOT a good idea when your son had just shot an innocent animal. That dog could not defend itself from your son and truly, a kid that can shoot a dog and feel no remorse needs some STERN discipline. I would be VERY upset if I were your neighbor. I would be VERY upset with your son if I were you.

[ChrissySC]

I am forced to. Alas, with a bun in the oven I can not partake of it myself. *sob*

 

I'll pour one for you and one for Scarlett (love the new avatar Scarlett :D).

 

 

I think Scarlett needs one for sure.

 

I think she has cloudy brain today. :) We all have at one time or another.

 

You should poor a double expresso double shot of Bailey's for her.:lol:

[Denisemomof4]

Self defense to our ears. :tongue_smilie: Ok, I clearly am not taking this serious enough. Will try to muster up some remorse so I can model proper behavior to ds.

 

:svengo:

 

I seriously need to stop responding, but REALLY?

 

Do a google search. PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED BY BB GUNS.

 

http://ezinearticles.com/?BB-Guns-and-Safety&id=198267

 

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=8243293

 

http://edmonds.komonews.com/content/beloved-cat-dies-after-being-shot-bb-gun

 

:leaving:

[Tree House Academy]

Heck yeah BBs hurt. It's one thing to shoot at trees and stuff, but it's downright cruel to shoot at animals and people. I imagine she has a reasonable case to call the police.

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

[LG Gone Wild]

I will go on the record that the neighbor is a bit at fault. I remember posting about my barking dog and the response that I got was that it was MY responsibility to curb the dog. The neighbor isn't particularly empathetic to Scarlett with her annoying animal and in turn, Scarlett isn't that sympathetic with regard to the dog.

 

Anyway, to Scarlett, the bb thing could land you and your boy in a lot of trouble. Make nice the next time you see her and get your own annoying dog. :tongue_smilie:

[Denisemomof4]

No, I am not missing the point. Point is you all think it is horrible to shoot a dog with a bb (sort of) gun.

 

:svengo:

[Ria]

Scarlett,

 

I want you to know that I understand the dog barking thing. Try 17 years...a pack of little yippers. Augh. I almost went crazy a long time ago and actually started considering poisoning them. Really. Not in their yard, mind you...I had somehow justified it (put rat poison in a container in my yard...they would be trespassing if they ate it, right?) It was BAD thinking.

 

I realized this. It freaked me out.

 

At the time, our neighbor had a few dogs; one barked nonstop. Our township had no ordinance about barking dogs, and the neighbor is a piece of work, to put it mildly. :tongue_smilie: So, I was afraid of my own anger and had nowhere to go. It was a scary thing. I am a praying type of person, so I prayed. I prayed that God would make. me. stop. before I did something insane.

 

God smote the dog.

 

Honest. I kid you not. The very next day the neighbor's child came over and told my kids that her dog had fallen over dead. I attribute it all to God. He wanted to save me from prison.

 

If you are a praying woman, pray. If you aren't, think positive thoughts. Have a beer. Go for a walk. Do something. Then later, when you feel a little better, consider how to approach your neighbor, because approach her you must. Make it better somehow. And between the two of you, work out some way to get the dogs to stop barking as much.

 

I understand your hatred of the dogs. I really do.

:grouphug:

 

(And, for the record, I still consider the dog-smiting to be one of God's best acts on my behalf)

[Danestress]

but the thing is, you have to TEACH this to your dog. Your dog may well think he is supposed to bark at every leaf that falls from a tree. You teach a dog what the rules are in your world, and you teach the dog that the whole world belongs to you. I am working hard on this with my dog, and not with perfect results, but this is at least the frame of mind.

 

Here you have a kid deciding to HURT a dog that maybe doesn't even know the rules. Ok, it's not the worse hurt that ever happened, but never the less, the child is using really questionable methods to "train" a dog that doesn't belong to him. And the way the kid did this may well not teach the dog that rule. We tend to think, "Dog is barking, I shot dog, now dog knows that barking is annoying," but that may not be at all the message the dog got. It's just ridiculous to think that a 10 year old boy with a bb gun who has no real relationship with the dog is going to train that dog how the rules work.

 

But yes, this woman can and should teach her dogs not hang out at the fence line barking.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Danestress

[Denisemomof4]

Yeah, but.......not sure how to say sorry any more than I already did. When I said, 'I'm sorry, I will tell him not to do it again,' She just stood there.

 

You said in a post that you "said you were sorry. You thought." So you're not really sure that you apologized.

[WishboneDawn]

 

God smote the dog.

 

:lol::lol::lol: Oh my...:lol::lol::lol:

[Denisemomof4]

You are right that this thread does not sound like you. So much so that numerous times since reading the OP I thought,"Who is writing this? Where is Scarlett?" :001_smile:

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Wendi]

Ds will not do it again.

 

How do you know that? If I were the neighbor, I wouldn't walk away with any confidence about my dogs' safety if you just said, he won't do it again. I'd want to hear, "We'll take away the gun immediately," or "We'll lock up the gun so he can only use it with adult supervision," or something. Something that lets me know you agree with how bad the act was, and that you will be making sure it CAN'T happen again, as far as you can help it. You gave her the impression that you don't think it was really bad, the dogs deserved it, and all you're going to do is tell your son not to do it again, no make any changes in his access to weapons or supervision. KWIM?

 

Wendi

[UnsinkableKristen]

 

God smote the dog.

 

 

(And, for the record, I still consider the dog-smiting to be one of God's best acts on my behalf)

 

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[pdalley]

I live with a yapping dog that I can't stand. My husband brought him home. I like the dog except when he yaps. So I sympathize with the annoyance.

 

However I'm fairly certain there is a statue in VA that is called Cruelty to Animals. Shooting one with a BB gun qualifies. It is a crime. Period.

 

I was an animal control officer. BB guns DO hurt dogs. It is not acceptable to shoot animals with BB guns in this house. Of course we don't have BB guns. Never will. I just don't like them.

 

Call the police about the noise - isn't there a noise ordinance? Barking dogs qualify. There must be a better way to deal with this that shooting a dog with a BB gun.

[WishboneDawn]

Scarlett -When you're done with this thread I found a link to a game you might like:

 

Shoot the Dog

 

:D

[Jen in PA]

A neighbor child shot one of my cats with a bb gun when I was growing up. The cat required expensive surgery and multiple rounds of antibiotics to recover. When my mother worked as a veterinary tech she saw animals blinded by bb guns regularly. I would take it very seriously.

[LG Gone Wild]

but the thing is, you have to TEACH this to your dog. Your dog may well think he is supposed to bark at every leaf that falls from a tree. You teach a dog what the rules are in your world, and you teach the dog that the whole world belongs to you. I am working hard on this with my dog, and not with perfect results, but this is at least the frame of mind.

 

Here you have a kid deciding to HURT a dog that maybe doesn't even know the rules. Ok, it's not the worse hurt that ever happened, but never the less, the child is using really questionable methods to "train" a dog that doesn't belong to him. And the way the kid did this may well not teach the dog that rule. We tend to think, "Dog is barking, I shot dog, now dog knows that barking is annoying," but that may not be at all the message the dog got. It's just ridiculous to think that a 10 year old boy with a bb gun who has no real relationship with the dog is going to train that dog how the rules work.

 

But yes, this woman can and should teach her dogs not hang out at the fence line barking.

 

 

If you are addressing me .... we aren't really in disagreement. The owner didn't do her part. My post was that my dog was barking at my neighbor because it (he) hates the neighbor boy for teasing it. Despite the neighbor being a turd, the dog was/is my responsibility.

 

 

The 10yo boy acted like a 10yo boy not familiar with dogs.

[nowimscrappin]

He won't do it again would never be an appropriate-enough response for me. I thnk she is looking for some realization of the seriousness of what he did and it is clear you or he don't have that. I'd be calling the police too!

[Denisemomof4]

I don't understand the logic...CPS *could* be called whether or not any of these things are true. :confused:

 

I don't know about CPS, but the cops COULD be called and then your son likely would be charged. I don't know if YOU could as well.

[Liz CA]

I have a question here. I have already responded to the issue at hand, however, several people say the boy (10 years old) could be charged? I am just curious how this could happen. I can see that his parents may be held responsible in some way but what would the police do after they charge him? Are we talking juvenile detention center and loss of custody? This does not seem warranted in this particular case.

 

Scarlett, I am just wanting to clarify this, however, as I said earlier I too would have been livid if my son shot at anything alive unless it was to defend his life or to hunt for food. I think the woman wanted to hear something stronger than "I will tell him not to do it again." because this suggests all you will do is tell him and there are not other consequences. I think if I had been the dog owner, I would have said: "I hope you will do more than just tell him." It may be a case of misunderstood semantics and maybe what you meant was that it will never happen again, period. I bet she didn't hear it that way.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Liz CA

[Denisemomof4]

Shooting your glass had not purpose. As misguided as it appears to have been, there was very clear purpose by shooting at the dog. From a long distance btw.

 

And no I do not think it was that bad of a thing to do. But he won't be doing it again since it is clearly seen as a horror.

 

I truly wish you'd GET IT. I'm just absolutely SHOCKED, and horrified, that you don't.

[Daisy]

Do you live in the country or the city? Because honestly, my mom down in the sticks of Alabama would have smacked my brother upside the head and said, "Don't be shooting bbs at people's pets." He would have been made to apologize (grovel) and that would have been the end of it. He would have gone back to shooting squirrels which EVERYONE is glad to be rid of.

 

I think the kid did wrong and needs to apologize.

 

I think the neighbor needs to shut her dogs up.

 

I don't think it is the end of the world.

[nowimscrappin]

I truly wish you'd GET IT. I'm just absolutely SHOCKED, and horrified, that you don't.

:iagree:

[swellmomma]

I have a question here. I have already responded to the issue at hand, however, several people say the boy (10 years old) could be charged? I am just curious how this could happen. I can see that his parents may be held responsible in some way but what would the police do after they charge him? Are we talking juvenile detention center and loss of custody? This does not seem warranted in this particular case.

 

Scarlett, I am just wanting to clarify this, however, as I said earlier I too would have been livid if my son shot at anything alive unless it was to defend his life or to hunt for food.

 

In this area what it would mean is standing before the judge and usually some sort of community service and probation for a determined amount of time with restrictions (such as no bb guns). Unless it is an ongoing issue and the child does not comply with the terms the judge hands out then there would not be juvenile detention. The only way I could see CPS getting involved in a situation like this one, is if the police are called and the responding officer feels there was either a lack of supervision, or if the Op responded to the officer the same way she did to the neighbor in which case they may call in CPS to make sure everything is on the up and up.

 

In the case of a 10 yr old, if police were involved, I am sure the parents do end up being brought up on whatever the child is, since ultimately it is up to them to ensure the child complies with any terms set out.

[jujsky]

In your neighbor's defense, they will bark more now, and it isn't her fault. Sounds to me like ds has a lot of explaining to do too.

 

And yes, bb's hurt - so do the air soft.

 

:iagree: In this case, I think you're in the wrong. I know you weren't saying that he shot them because they bark as some sort of justification, but I'm sure that's the way it came across. I would have taken it that way and quite honestly, I would have called the police after a response like that instead of trying to deal with it in any neighborly sort of way.

[unsinkable]

I don't think he was angry or frustrated.....he thought a sting would make them shut up.

 

I am on post #134 so sorry if this has been answered.

 

DId he shoot more than once? How many dogs were there? Did he shoot at each of them?

[gardenmom5]

Ds11 just got caught by the neighbor shooting their dog with his bb gun. She came over and confronted me. It wasn't pretty. I told her I would tell ds to not do that again.

 

She wanted more I think. So am I the worst neighbor in the world? How serious do you think a barking dog gets shot with bbs?

 

as someone whose dog was shot by a BB gun, yes it's a very big deal. your telling him "not to do it again", is a floppy handslap at best. how do you plan on guaranteeing that? what will you do if he shoots the dog again? bb guns are an introduction to firearms and he should get the firearms saftey lecture to go with it.

 

Take. the. gun. away. at least for a period of time. He shouldn't be shooting it at anything living, or anyone's houses. (we also had many bb's holes through windows. same kid.)

 

The bbs don't even hurt.

 

that is absolutely false, and I knew my dog had been shot with bb's becuase it. was. still. in. her.)

the barking dogs should be addressed seperately, and not as a defense for him shooting her dog. You should be grateful she came to you before calling the police.

Edited September 2, 2011 by gardenmom5

[Denisemomof4]

Scarlett -When you're done with this thread I found a link to a game you might like:

 

Shoot the Dog

 

:D

 

ok, I think this is probably the funniest post I've EVER seen here, and I haven't even opened the link!!!

 

You're SO BAD!!!!!! I *LOVE* IT!!!!!

[MelanieM]

If I were your neighbour, I would be more concerned with your response than with the original act.

 

I'm also feeling sorry for your son. I don't know that it's fair that he alone pay the consequences for what appears to be behavior his parents have modeled as acceptable. Perhaps you should both spend some time volunteering at an animal shelter.

[kiana]

:iagree: In this case, I think you're in the wrong. I know you weren't saying that he shot them because they bark as some sort of justification, but I'm sure that's the way it came across. I would have taken it that way and quite honestly, I would have called the police after a response like that instead of trying to deal with it in any neighborly sort of way.

 

Yep.

 

As soon as I walked away I'd have been on the phone to the police department.

 

If she does call the police, I'd advise against telling the police 'but her dogs bark', as that's going to just make it seem like you think it's okay to damage someone else's property if it's annoying you.

[WishboneDawn]

ok, I think this is probably the funniest post I've EVER seen here, and I haven't even opened the link!!!

 

You're SO BAD!!!!!! I *LOVE* IT!!!!!

 

:lol:

 

It's a fun game. :D

[Denisemomof4]

Scarlett, I hope you truly understand how wrong your attitude is and how it affects your son's thought process on all of this. You contributed to your son's irrational behavior. I know you didn't mean to intentionally, but you did. I do hope you can come to realize how wrong his actions were, and how your condoning them, as his mother and the responsible adult, were even more wrong. I hope you also realize that your son CAN have charges brought against him from this incident. His actions were illegal, your neighbors were not. Annoying, yes, illegal - NO.

 

Because of your history here, I don't think you're a bad person At All.

 

I know how it is to come here and get SLAMMED. I was absolutely gobsmacked by your attitude, but I do hope you gain enlightenment from this thread and not walk away with your "tail between your legs."

:grouphug: