Transgender question related to the ABC Primetime show "(Extra)Ordinary Family"

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I was quoting an article. Post modern thought on psychosexuality and gender. The idea is that gender is not connected with physical attributes, but rather something that is fluid and can be changed at will. Thus, we're all capable of being transgender if we choose to be so, eschewing the idea of gender being the result of what is assigned and accepted by society due to our physical form.

 

I think we're all made in God's image ;) I just found the article very interesting for what is the newer approach to viewing gender and sexuality as something that the individual can change as the individual sees fit. "I might have been straight yesterday, but I can be homosexual today, and maybe bisexual tomorrow. One's psychosexual identity is said to be in constant flux." That is the result of gender also being in flux.

 

Why would we not teach our children that they are boys or girls/males or females, unless it's because we do nto believe that the social construct of gender is wrong and gender can be chosen by the individual? Perhaps some do choose to identify with the gender they are born with, but (according to the post-modern thought) they should not be bound to do so.

 

So, if naming your child a gender specific name is going to screw them up for life by forcing them to accept a gender that was assigned to them by their physical anatomy, then their gender is up in the air until they pick what they want to be and if they decide differently later they should be able to do so.

 

I still do not think gender is that fluid based on several shows/articles that I saw on gender which looked at multiple individuals born with both male and female attributes who were assigned a gender at birth or very shortly afterwards. Many of these individuals were unhappy with their assigned genders and felt the wrong gender had been assigned which leads me to think that this is something our brains are wired for so to speak. IMHO I certainly did not choose to be a girl or straight.

 

OTOH I do think that ideas on what is feminine and masculine are more fluid and varies from culture to culture. I also think of male and female as a continuum as well as sexuality as a continuum so to speak. But generally speaking I think most people do not have a choice as to their genders or sexuality.

[unsinkable]

And there it is. We know he's gay, he just won't admit it. At least, he claims not to be.

 

:lol:

 

Not convoluted at all. :D

[Ria]

But I do know people for whom molestation was very traumatic and it affected their sex life. And I too know a large number of molestation survivors who joined a religious order and vowed chastity or who became repulsed by heterosexual sex. If sexuality can be said to be fluid, couldn't trauma push you in one direction or the other?

 

I think trauma of many types can push one into a multitude of directions. Not just sexual direction.

[Halcyon]

I like the term gender-fluid.

 

I think many people hold stereotypical ideas of what "male" and "female" behavior is or should be, and when someone (a child or an adult) does not conform to those "standards", they are considered "effeminate" or "overly masculine". I think such labeling is a shame. Personally, we tell our children that there is "no such thing as boys things and girl things". We explain that society, for one reason and another, has led many Americans (pointing to our experience only) to gender-stereotype, but it's a cultural thing. People are unique, and the dogma that says we must divide behavior, attitudes, dress and sexuality into rigidly defined roles makes those who don't fit into those rather narrowly-circumscribed parameters feel like outcasts, regardless of whether they identify as male or female.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I like the term gender-fluid.

 

I think many people hold stereotypical ideas of what "male" and "female" behavior is or should be, and when someone (a child or an adult) does not conform to those "standards", they are considered "effeminate" or "overly masculine". I think such labeling is a shame. Personally, we tell our children that there is "no such thing as boys things and girl things". We explain that society, for one reason and another, has led many Americans (pointing to our experience only) to gender-stereotype, but it's a cultural thing. People are unique, and the dogma that says we must divide behavior, attitudes, dress and sexuality into rigidly defined roles makes those who don't fit into those rather narrowly-circumscribed parameters feel like outcasts, regardless of whether they identify as male or female.

:iagree: I do agree with this and have never liked rigidly defined gender roles at all. I wanted to play baseball and to be a ballerina:D I think men should have choices in dress and be able to show their caring sides too. OTOH I do think men and women are definitely different in some ways even though they are very much alike too;)

 

OTOH I worry about the term fluidity in terms of gender or sexuality since IMHO I think most people are born feeling on way or the other or sometimes in-between. I worry that such thinking leads to "pray away" the gay and what not as if it was a mere choice:(.

[Rosie_0801]

Well my brother has two older sisters and is asexual.

 

So there we go. :)

 

Rosie

[lionfamily1999]

:iagree: I do agree with this and have never liked rigidly defined gender roles at all. I wanted to play baseball and to be a ballerina:D I think men should have choices in dress and be able to show their caring sides too. OTOH I do think men and women are definitely different in some ways even though they are very much alike too;)

 

OTOH I worry about the term fluidity in terms of gender or sexuality since IMHO I think most people are born feeling on way or the other or sometimes in-between. I worry that such thinking leads to "pray away" the gay and what not as if it was a mere choice:(.

Except that this is not a religious stand point. It's a secular stand point. Either we get to choose or we don't :shrug: Either gender is just a socially made construct, or it's not. If gender does not depend upon chromosomes or anatomy, then it depends upon the feelings of the individual, then it's fluid and based upon choice.

 

From a Christian stand point, gender is not an option. It's whatever you're given by God. Homosexual sex is immoral. There is no real fluidity, but there is choice. You can choose your behavior. That's what I find so ironic about this is that as a Christian I sort of agree with what they're saying. Not so much the idea that gender has no definites, but that people have a choice.

 

Now, if gender is fluid, then I guess there isn't really any homosexual sex, because everyone could just be said to be experiencing the other gender that day or during that encounter. Transgender would just be forcing a person to pick a different gender, rather than allowing them to choose whatever feels right to them at the time. Homosexuality would be hindering a person's choice to do whatever feels good at the time. IOW, homosexuals that believe they have no choice would be the fundies of tomorrow. They would be denying what psychology is saying which is, you have a choice, if you don't see that choice then you are allowing society to force you into a box that you don't have to sit in.

 

Like the quote said, "I could be homosexual yesterday, straight today, and bisexual tomorrow." IOW, I could be a boy today, a girl yesterday, and neutral tomorrow.

[lionfamily1999]

:lol:

 

Not convoluted at all. :D

:lol: I know they were throwing 'troll' around, but hey... her point was proven for her, wasn't it? :lol:

[lionfamily1999]

I still do not think gender is that fluid based on several shows/articles that I saw on gender which looked at multiple individuals born with both male and female attributes who were assigned a gender at birth or very shortly afterwards. Many of these individuals were unhappy with their assigned genders and felt the wrong gender had been assigned which leads me to think that this is something our brains are wired for so to speak. IMHO I certainly did not choose to be a girl or straight.

 

OTOH I do think that ideas on what is feminine and masculine are more fluid and varies from culture to culture. I also think of male and female as a continuum as well as sexuality as a continuum so to speak. But generally speaking I think most people do not have a choice as to their genders or sexuality.

You're not talking about transgender though, you're talking about morphodites or hermaphradites (sorry for butchering the spelling there). There is a BIG difference. When I said "assigned at birth" what was meant (and this is how it was meant in the article) was that if you were born with a v* then they assigned you the gender of "girl" and if you were born with a p* they assigned you the gender of "boy." The article's point is that gender is something completely separate from anatomy/chromosomes/&tc and that any permanence we attach to it is based upon social conditioning.

 

You say that feminity and masculinity are fluid, that is the gender of which they speak. If you are feminine, but deny yourself that femininity because you're carrying around a p* then you're allowing society to assign you a gender. Their point is that gender should be according to how the person feels that day. Perhaps tomorrow I will be a man, because I feel pms coming on and that makes me feel like being a man. Look at that! I'm a man.

 

The choice is made day by day, moment by moment. Gender is not fixed, it is fluid. If gender is not fixed then sexuality cannot be fixed either. If I am a man tomorrow and I decide to have relations with my husband, I will be a gay man having homosexual sex with my husband. Contrary wise, if he decides to be a woman tomorrow, I suppose it will still be heterosexual sex.

 

By respecting the gender someone self-identifies with (or claims), we must then respect their sexual choices may change or not and so their sexuality would change. A gay man who decides tomorrow he wants to be a woman for the day, will then be a heterosexual woman. He is no longer simply gay, he is now whatever he wishes to be moment by moment. Perhaps she will choose to be bisexual :shrug: it's up to her.

[unsinkable]

:lol: I know they were throwing 'troll' around, but hey... her point was proven for her, wasn't it? :lol:

 

Control the language, you control the conversation.

Control the conversation, you control the policy.

Control the policy, you control the country.

All for the want of a horseshoe nail. :lol:

[amey311]

Except that this is not a religious stand point. It's a secular stand point. Either we get to choose or we don't :shrug: Either gender is just a socially made construct, or it's not. If gender does not depend upon chromosomes or anatomy, then it depends upon the feelings of the individual, then it's fluid and based upon choice.

 

From a Christian stand point, gender is not an option. It's whatever you're given by God. Homosexual sex is immoral. There is no real fluidity, but there is choice. You can choose your behavior. That's what I find so ironic about this is that as a Christian I sort of agree with what they're saying. Not so much the idea that gender has no definites, but that people have a choice.

 

Now, if gender is fluid, then I guess there isn't really any homosexual sex, because everyone could just be said to be experiencing the other gender that day or during that encounter. Transgender would just be forcing a person to pick a different gender, rather than allowing them to choose whatever feels right to them at the time. Homosexuality would be hindering a person's choice to do whatever feels good at the time. IOW, homosexuals that believe they have no choice would be the fundies of tomorrow. They would be denying what psychology is saying which is, you have a choice, if you don't see that choice then you are allowing society to force you into a box that you don't have to sit in.

 

Like the quote said, "I could be homosexual yesterday, straight today, and bisexual tomorrow." IOW, I could be a boy today, a girl yesterday, and neutral tomorrow.

 

Eish. I am nervous about where this is heading because it implies that for ALL people gender and orientation are a choice, and I don't think that's true. It seems to also imply that the default is hetero (and gender based on biology). I'm not going to be able to explain myself well right now.

[Lady Florida.]

My male cousin who is gay is second born. He has an older brother, and 4 younger siblings. Dh's gay nephew is first born and has a sister. I've had gay colleagues when I worked, but I have no idea of their birth order.

 

The only transgender person I know is an identical twin. He was born male and is now female, and not gay. Her brother is straight with no gender identity issues. I have no idea which twin is older.

 

And I'm also :confused: over "claims to be gay".

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I'm a bit tired of hearing the schtick, "So, I could be a man today then decide I'm a woman tomorrow" and "I could be straight today, gay tomorrow and bisexual on Tuesday". It is VERY dismissive and flip and not a completely accurate representation of the study that is being discussed.

 

(Quite similar in my mind to how some describe the xian god as "praying to the sky daddy" and xians get offended, no?)

 

It is very dismissive and rude to describe the deep, deep turmoil and pain that LGBTQ individuals to through to state it like, "I'll just decide to be gay today!"

 

Also, molestation does not cause gayness.

 

Also, please watch the short movie Fish Out of Water. It's on Netflix instant download. She covers quite a few misconceptions that Christians have about the Bible's view on gay issues.

[Elizabeth in MN]

I read a study once that the only familial/ birth order commonality between gay men was the number of older brothers-- the more older brothers a man had, the more likely he was to be gay.

 

Well, I guess that means the Duggars are going to have to deal with some of their kids coming out...

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Well, I guess that means the Duggars are going to have to deal with some of their kids coming out...

 

We have discussed this in our home. Can you IMAGINE how awful your experience would be....coming out to a Fundie family? I was reared in Fundie-land and it would be tantamount to disowning oneself from the family. Most would likely try to 'pray the gay away' and pass as 'not-gay'. :001_huh:

[Ipsey]

But I do know people for whom molestation was very traumatic and it affected their sex life. And I too know a large number of molestation survivors who joined a religious order and vowed chastity or who became repulsed by heterosexual sex. If sexuality can be said to be fluid, couldn't trauma push you in one direction or the other?

 

Oh, sure, I think trauma can do all sorts of things to one's sexuality.

It's just that I see too often people claim that homosexuality is deviant and a sickness and it's easy to say, "see, they had the trauma of molestation and now s/he's gay" and use that to indicate that only emotional/psychological damage makes you gay.

 

My brother-in-law was molested by his priest. In his case, it didn't make him gay, it made him suicidal. He hanged himself at 13.

 

Perhaps the cases that the woman mentioned, that every gay person she knew was molested. . .well, maybe they were gay and that the people who molested them were attracted to that! Maybe young gay people with no support or help are more in danger of being molested. Now, I'm NOT saying that is the case in any of these that the woman mentioned, but I'm making the point that correlation doesn't equal causation in either direction.

 

Molestation doesn't make a straight person gay any more than it makes a gay person straight.

 

Trauma, however, can totally wreck just about any part of your life.

[Ipsey]

We have discussed this in our home. Can you IMAGINE how awful your experience would be....coming out to a Fundie family? I was reared in Fundie-land and it would be tantamount to disowning oneself from the family. Most would likely try to 'pray the gay away' and pass as 'not-gay'. :001_huh:

 

I know two homeschooling young men, who are very clearly gay. Very Christian families. I hear some of the women talk about it from time to time, always insisting, "Oh, I don't think they're gay. They're just. . . a little different."

 

They're gay. People recognize it, but can't acknowledge it. It can't be! Not these Christian boys with the good families who love Jesus!

 

One's father keeps going around to all of the big anti-gay events and writing anti-gay letters to the editor in the paper. I just wonder how those boys are going to deal.

 

I hope they can find their way out to happy relationships some day.

[mom31257]

Does anyone know if there are genetic studies on transgender or homosexuality?

[Ipsey]

Does anyone know if there are genetic studies on transgender or homosexuality?

Hundreds.

What exactly do you want to know?

 

Here are a couple of links, and you can follow the links to the scientific journals if you like.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2008/10/27/2401941.htm (transsexuality)

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1941-01350-001 (an interesting abstract you can follow up on)

 

I think the most dominant theory running now is that sexuality is not solely based on genetics, but by hormonal influences in the womb and environment as well.

 

This is just a fascinating, accessible, but long read, about homosexuality in non-human animals http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/04/magazine/04animals-t.html

shorter one, but just as interesting. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2026133/Gay-zebra-finches-attached-faithful-heterosexual-pairs.html

 

If you go to Google Scholar (scholar.google.com), you can find just as many articles as you could possibly want on the issue. I'd stick to the well-respected, peer-approved journals, however.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Ipsey

[Elizabeth in MN]

Okay, about Catholic Charities - every GLBT person that I personally that has been adopted was through CC. That's 100%. Now, not every person that I know who was adopted through CC is GLBT. Not even half of these people, GLBT or not, were raised Catholic.

 

Oh, and add me to the list of people you know that were NOT molested and figured out that she was Bi.

 

As for the whole "I choose to be Gay" think - it's bull. No one chooses a hard path of hatred, fear, repression, denial of basic civil rights, and other fun things.

[mom31257]

Hundreds.

What exactly do you want to know?

 

Do homosexuals have certain dna differences than heterosexuals, and the same for transgender? Could it get to the point that people could be tested and see the probability of having a gay child?

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Do homosexuals have certain dna differences than heterosexuals, and the same for transgender? Could it get to the point that people could be tested and see the probability of having a gay child?

 

 

:blink:

 

Hmmm, on pinterest recently there was OUTRAGE when someone posted, "What if the unborn person that you are trying to save is gay?"

[Audrey]

In the future a simple "I am only asking about people who call themselves gay/transgender/etc., NOT people whom you suspect are gay, etc." would explain your intent.

 

When some people (myself included) read "claim to be gay" it can be code for "isn't REALLY gay, they just THINK that they are because they havn't figured out the truth yet". (think 'pray the gay away')

 

As to your original hypothesis, the last research that I read was that the more older brothers a boy has the more likely he is to be gay. I remember my husband saying, "So, statistically speaking, at least one of the Duggar kids is gay and just doesn't know it yet". :001_huh:

 

I think trying to estimate who is and isn't likely to be gay is futile at best and egregiously harmful at worst. It is pre-labelling people who haven't even had a chance to discover their sexuality or gender yet. Statistics can be a very damaging way to classify people.

[mom31257]

:blink:

 

Hmmm, on pinterest recently there was OUTRAGE when someone posted, "What if the unborn person that you are trying to save is gay?"

 

 

Well...that's just ridiculous. If your pro-life, you should be prolife all the way. I am, and that's why I'm opposed to capital punishment. I was just thinking if people really could not handle the thought of having a gay child, maybe they shouldn't have children if they have a high percentage of a chance. I wasn't meaning abortion!

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Well...that's just ridiculous. If your pro-life, you should be prolife all the way. I am, and that's why I'm opposed to capital punishment. I was just thinking if people really could not handle the thought of having a gay child, maybe they shouldn't have children if they have a high percentage of a chance. I wasn't meaning abortion!

 

 

While I believe that YOU didn't mean abortion, I wonder if the abortion rates would rise even HIGHER than they are now among evangelicals (about equal to other groups, if memory serves) if people could know in advance.

[*********]

The child I know who is sexu@lly attracted to members of the same sex is the firstborn of four.

[*********]

We have discussed this in our home. Can you IMAGINE how awful your experience would be....coming out to a Fundie family? I was reared in Fundie-land and it would be tantamount to disowning oneself from the family. Most would likely try to 'pray the gay away' and pass as 'not-gay'. :001_huh:

 

:001_huh:

 

Speaking from personal experience, this is not true. At all.

[LisaKinVA]

I was "promised" to a young man who *no one* suspected of being gay. Instead of formally getting engaged, he came out to me. Threw me through a HUGE loop (not to mention all of our friends and family). People actually blamed *me.* (he was the son of a preacher man...)

 

Another good friend (MK from Brazil) also came out after law school. I have no idea how his family took it, but he had a "no holds barred" attitude about it when he came out. Again, no one suspected.

 

I also know people (effeminate men) who people assumed to be gay, who are not. These are people who would have *incredible* support, very open families, very open friends, absolutely *nothing* to lose.

 

IME, you can't always *know,* nor should you assume you can. Homosexuals don't fit stereotypes any more than I do.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

:001_huh:

 

Speaking from personal experience, this is not true. At all.

 

 

You know "most closeted Evangelical gay people"?

 

I was speaking of the majority who may not be able to endure that pain, not the people you know personally.

[*********]

You know "most closeted Evangelical gay people"?

 

:confused: What? I didn't say that. At all. What I said was:

 

 

Speaking from personal experience, this is not true. At all.

 

Which was in response to:

 

Most would likely try to 'pray the gay away' and pass as 'not-gay'. :001_huh:

 

I'm sorry if I was somehow unclear in my statement, but I have NO idea how you took that I "know most closeted Evangelical gay people", or that I was speaking on their behalf. I thought I was pretty clear that I was speaking of my personal experience. You know, just like you were speaking of yours. I don't pretend to know what the majority of "closeted Evangelical gay people" think or feel; do you?

[Caterpiller]

I knew a girl who did CHOSE to be gay... then Chose to be bi... and then went back to gay... then grew up to be straight and last I heard, she still was?? In some people it is a matter of confusion. She is the oldest of four.

 

(by transgender, I assume you mean someone who came out as being gay and had a surgical sex change. If so...)

The only transgender I've met is male. An only child of an abuse father who died when he was a teenager. His mother never remarried and they have lived together all this time. He came out in his late 30s and is now living as a female. He/she is marrying a man who is also now living as a female after under going a surgical sex change.

 

I have an uncle who realized in his early 20s he was gay... but he hasn't come out to the family. I only know from speculation (not even my own unfortunatly, I was clueless) and then later admission from my dad who told me because I guess he thought I was old enough to know. :confused: I love my uncle unconditionally. There is nothing he could do to make me not love him. I haven't got to spend as much time with him as I wish I could but the time I have spent is very precious to me. He is an amazing person. He has chosen not to act on his feelings because he doesn't think that is what God wants, but he also doesn't attend church. I imagine life is very confusing for him but it isn't my place to approach him on the matter and I wouldn't be able to offer anything to him except the confrimation that he is loved reguardless. He is the 2nd born and the youngest in the family.

[mom31257]

I knew a girl who did CHOSE to be gay... then Chose to be bi... and then went back to gay... then grew up to be straight and last I heard, she still was?? In some people it is a matter of confusion. She is the oldest of four.

 

I could see how choosing the lifestyle could be a result of confusion for some. Isn't that why some sexual education programs promote experimenting as really a means to understand what you are?

[amey311]

 

(by transgender, I assume you mean someone who came out as being gay and had a surgical sex change. If so...)

No. Gender identity is separate from sexual preference. Transgendered means I was born a girl but really and truly feel like a boy. That part of me is separate from the gender of the people I love.

 

So there will be people born female, and take steps to physically become their true gender (male). Those men may be interested in men or women. Or both. Or neither. Just like regular old born female and sticking with it women may be interested in men, women, both or neither.

 

Also, not all transgendered people chose to have sexual reassignment surgery. The surgery to go from being male to female is far more successful than going from being female to male in terms of gen!ta1 reassignment. That's something you can google if you want. I know some female to male transsexuals who have had their breasts reduced, and take testosterone (so their voices lower, and their body hair increases), but opt to not have the "bottom" surgery because, well, it's hard to make something out of nothing, to be a bit flippant.

 

FYI: the "me" above isn't speaking about me, but it was easier with all the pronouns.

[LucyStoner]

 

My personal experience, most of the gay people I've known, male or female, were molested as children. I can only think of one who wasn't, and he has a brother who is also gay. I'm pretty sure there have been studies showing this is not a proven causal issue, but in my little circle of life, it's definitely a common factor.

 

 

 

This has been totally disproven and is IMO totally a ridiculous claim.

 

Anecdotally, I was sexually assaulted as a child. I am heterosexual and happily married to a man for nearly 10 years. My brother was not molested, abused or assaulted. He is transexual (female to male) and gay, partnered with a man for years and raising 2 daughters.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

:confused: What? I didn't say that. At all. What I said was:

 

 

 

Which was in response to:

 

 

 

I'm sorry if I was somehow unclear in my statement, but I have NO idea how you took that I "know most closeted Evangelical gay people", or that I was speaking on their behalf. I thought I was pretty clear that I was speaking of my personal experience. You know, just like you were speaking of yours. I don't pretend to know what the majority of "closeted Evangelical gay people" think or feel; do you?

 

There's been a misunderstanding. You stated that "In my experience this is not true. At all." I took that to mean that you found what I said untrue because of your anecdotal evidence, ie 'people you know'.

 

I don't know every evangelical closetted gay person, either. I was basing my speculation on personal accounts from people who tried to stay in the closet, tried to live a hetero life, tried to 'pray the gay away' and ended up scarred and damaged because of it. They desperately wanted to try to fit in. If you or anyone else is interested in more on that topic check out Wayne Besen's site http://www.truthwinsout.org/

[LucyStoner]

But I do know people for whom molestation was very traumatic and it affected their sex life. And I too know a large number of molestation survivors who joined a religious order and vowed chastity or who became repulsed by heterosexual sex. If sexuality can be said to be fluid, couldn't trauma push you in one direction or the other?

 

 

Of course molestation is very traumatic and impacts peoples' sex lives. For me, I needed a lot of time and therapy to even be able to physically have sex. But before I was assaulted (age 11), I knew I was attracted to males. After, I still was, once I got to a place where I could be attracted to anyone. :glare:

 

I am sure that some gay people were molested, but no one will ever convince me that they are gay because they were molested.

Edited September 3, 2011 by kijipt

[Joanne]

I knew a girl who did CHOSE to be gay... then Chose to be bi... and then went back to gay... then grew up to be straight and last I heard, she still was?? In some people it is a matter of confusion. She is the oldest of four.

 

(by transgender, I assume you mean someone who came out as being gay and had a surgical sex change. If so...)

.

 

:confused:

 

This thread is full of some really bad theories, ideas, and information.

 

The confusion between transgender and orientation alone is frightening.

 

Experimenting sexually does not mean "being gay", or, for that matter, "being straight". A person can be straight/gay/bi but willing to have sexual encounters that are more broad than scripted.

 

At the place where I work (and those like it), there are restrictions on physical interactions. Residents (at risk teens) often choose to be "gay for the stay." Girls do this more than guys, probably for culturally scripted reasons. Contrary to the saying, most of these girls are not actually gay but are willing to play sexually.

 

(BTW, the rules are also against same sex intimacies, it is just more difficult to stop it)

 

I do not believe this true. There was a case a baby born male who had a tragic circumcision accident. Consequently the doctors advised to assign this child a female status and the family raised him as female. This child grew up and was very unhappy in his assigned gender and eventually reverted back to his male status. I also recall that this child was unaware that he was born male and they even used hormones from what I recollect to help in his assigned female gender. Therefore to me it is not so fluid at all. I think our brains due to possibly hormonal influences in utero end up feeling male or female in most cases.

 

David Reimer. He committed suicide and his whole family was/is a mess as a result. I think the duplicity and secrets were also formative, in addition to the coerced gender reassignment.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

 

But I do know people for whom molestation was very traumatic and it affected their sex life. And I too know a large number of molestation survivors who joined a religious order and vowed chastity or who became repulsed by heterosexual sex. If sexuality can be said to be fluid, couldn't trauma push you in one direction or the other?

 

You can't be pushed into orientation. The "molestation" cause of gay is inaccurate, and terribly flawed math.

 

I'm considering, as part of my eventual private practice, finding a way to offer safe counseling to spiritual, and Christian minded sexual minorities.

[Caterpiller]

:confused:

 

This thread is full of some really bad theories, ideas, and information.

 

The confusion between transgender and orientation alone is frightening.

 

Experimenting sexually does not mean "being gay", or, for that matter, "being straight". A person can be straight/gay/bi but willing to have sexual encounters that are more broad than scripted.

 

At the place where I work (and those like it), there are restrictions on physical interactions. Residents (at risk teens) often choose to be "gay for the stay." Girls do this more than guys, probably for culturally scripted reasons. Contrary to the saying, most of these girls are not actually gay but are willing to play sexually.

 

(BTW, the rules are also against same sex intimacies, it is just more difficult to stop it)

 

 

She was my best friend through highschool when she was going through this. She literally bounced back and forth between these titles herself. She talked to me about her feelings... A LOT. Some of it was extremly uncomfortable for me... like when she said she use to stare at my lips when I slept over at her house. :001_huh: She was choosing to define herself in those ways. I don't claim to understand what everyone else goes through, but this individual was certainly confused and looking for a lable. To be honest, after how close I was to her, I believe she was just looking to be loved. (she was sexually abused as a young girl by her fathers friend... in her fathers presence for the record.)

[LucyStoner]

:confused:

 

This thread is full of some really bad theories, ideas, and information.

 

The confusion between transgender and orientation alone is frightening.

 

:iagree: It is really unreal for me to read some of these theories and beliefs. My brother did not "choose" to be trans or be gay anymore than a straight person chooses to be straight.

[jujsky]

One gay friend (male) is 2nd born/youngest. A guy I went to high school with is the oldest and he's gay. One female gay friend is youngest of several children and a late-in-life baby, so I don't know if she is considered an only child or a youngest child. I know of 4 female friends who are bi, and all of them are oldest children. I'm not entirely sure if 2 of them consider themselves bi or consider themselves gay. They both had relationships with men, both were teen moms, and are both in committed relationships with women right now.

 

My grandparents have friends and both their adult children are gay. One is male, one is female so in that case it has nothing to do with birth-order.

[HeidiKC]

When looking for our ancestor tree, we have a great-great-uncle with a definite female name - Emily. His birth certificate states he was female. Yet later on, he fathered quite a few chidlren. That was in the late 1800. No sex changes then!

 

Talk about arbitrary gender!

 

 

What??? I don't get this at all. He was born a girl with a girl name? Or he always had a girl name and fathered children? How was he a girl and then fathered children? I am probably sounding very stupid, but I am mightily confused...and interested as well!

[twoforjoy]

I'm a bit tired of hearing the schtick, "So, I could be a man today then decide I'm a woman tomorrow" and "I could be straight today, gay tomorrow and bisexual on Tuesday". It is VERY dismissive and flip and not a completely accurate representation of the study that is being discussed.

 

I think there needs to be space to recognize that sexual identity can be fluid throughout one's life without being dismissive in that way. Women in particular, from things I've read, seem to have a more fluid sexual identity than men, and can more easily move, over the course of a lifetime, from one sexual identity to another.

 

I've known men who were once in straight relationship and then began a same-sex one. In all instances, they describe themselves as having been living a lie. They were always gay, but they denied it.

 

For women, it's more varied. Some seem to have that same trajectory, but I've known women who moved between same- and opposite-sex relationships and didn't feel like one was "a lie." They also don't identify as bisexual. (Some women do, obviously, but not all who have had both straight and gay relationships and don't deny the validity of their feelings within either.)

 

Also, molestation does not cause gayness.

 

Given how prevalent sexual abuse is, 1) it's not at all surprising that people would know a number of gay people who were sexually abused, just like they'd know a number of straight people who were sexually abused and 2) if it caused gayness, we'd have way more gay people. Also, IIRC from data I've seen, a larger percentage of men are gay than women are lesbians, and if sexual abuse caused gayness, we'd expect to see the opposite.

 

I knew a girl who did CHOSE to be gay... then Chose to be bi... and then went back to gay... then grew up to be straight and last I heard, she still was?? In some people it is a matter of confusion. She is the oldest of four.

 

I think there is (or maybe was is a better verb) an extremely small number of women who choose to be in same-sex relationships for political reasons. Most of them came to that decision in the 1970s or 1980s when a certain brand of separatist feminism was in vogue. Many who weren't naturally inclined to be gay seem to have ended up in straight relationships after enough time. You can't find your nature forever, most of the time, whether you are a gay person trying to "be" straight for religious reasons or a straight woman trying to "be" gay for political/ideological reasons.

 

Again, though, that was never more than a very small number of people, and at this point, separatist feminism is a relic and nobody is making decisions about their life partners based upon it.

 

I could see how choosing the lifestyle could be a result of confusion for some. Isn't that why some sexual education programs promote experimenting as really a means to understand what you are?

 

Promote or normalize? I can see a sex ed program normalizing experimentation for young people, in order to let them know that it's something many young people do and not something that they need to feel scared or ashamed of. I can't imagine it being anything approaching the norm for programs to encourage experimentation (or encourage sexual activity of any type) in the sense of saying "Go out and do this."

[snipsnsnailsx5]

I didn't read all the replies yet, so I may be reiterating here...but in my psych class I just took last semester, it said in my book that there are studies out there suggesting that boys with older brothers have a higher likelihood of being gay. It didn't really say if just having one older brother made a difference, or having many older brothers meant more of a chance.

This is interesting to me, as I have five boys. My 2nd oldest is only 9 now, but my husband and I have discussed in private that it seems he's already showing tendencies.

 

I'm interested to read this thread.

 

I do know that I have a personal friend who has a transgendered child. Her son starting having severe depression issues at a very young age - around 4 or 5 yrs old I want to say? He would say he hated being a boy-that he wasn't a boy. Once he tried to cut off his penis. She took him to specialists and child psychologists. The final diagnosis was her son has Gender Identity Disorder. The best thing she could do for him was to let him be a girl. So she did. Everything about her son is girly now...and she's very girly. :) She is also very happy. The mom has a blog about it if anyone is interested. She made the blog with the intent to educate.

Edited September 3, 2011 by snipsnsnailsx5

[Audrey]

What??? I don't get this at all. He was born a girl with a girl name? Or he always had a girl name and fathered children? How was he a girl and then fathered children? I am probably sounding very stupid, but I am mightily confused...and interested as well!

 

 

It is very likely his name was Emile, a French male name. Quite frequently, birth certificates contain numerous errors in spelling, and even in dates and places and genders. Toss in a language misunderstanding between a French family and an Anglo nurse or hospital staff et voilà! Errors galore. This was even more common before the advent of electronic record-keeping, although it is still relatively common even today. If you ever do genealogy research, it is best to take any records you find with a grain of salt until you have at least a few pieces of corroborating evidence.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Audrey

[JudyJudyJudy]

Originally Posted by stripe

But I do know people for whom molestation was very traumatic and it affected their sex life. And I too know a large number of molestation survivors who joined a religious order and vowed chastity or who became repulsed by heterosexual sex. If sexuality can be said to be fluid, couldn't trauma push you in one direction or the other?

You can't be pushed into orientation. The "molestation" cause of gay is inaccurate, and terribly flawed math.

I don't think at this point in time we can say this with 100% certainty. Science still doesn't know everything by a long shot. At one time scientists didn't believe that the brain could change after a certain point, but now we know that trauma can change the brain, chemicals in the body, and more. As such, it's not totally impossible that trauma could influence some people's sexual orientation. (We still don't truly know at what point in development orientation comes about—at conception? in utero? after birth?)

 

I have a cousin who is gay. She was a small child when she saw her father kill her mother. She tried to wipe the blood off her mother's head before her father told her to get the baby (her baby sister) and go to her grandmother's (through a field). Her father shot himself as soon as they got outside. She thinks that seeing what she did may have in some way affected her sexual orientation. I'm certainly not going to argue with her.

Edited September 3, 2011 by JudyJudyJudy

[Jumping In Puddles]

 

Molestation doesn't make you gay.

 

But it can make a preadolescent , molested by the same sex, very confused about their sexuality.

 

I know a transgendered child, age 9. She is a first born, and born a female but has identified as being a male since age 4. Her parents are a a mess (and in the middle of a divorce), her mother is constantly on edge and think people are judging her dd. "Just a phase". :confused:

 

I just heard last week, that Katie is now being called Jake by all her friends and her mother. (So I start saying "he" now?) The public school won't let him use the boys room, the parents at the bus stop call him "it" and won't let their children play with him. Oh, and Jake was talking with his guy friends about the girl he was in love with over the summer and his mother had a nervous breakdown. Like that's doing her kid any favors. :mad:

[Ipsey]

Do homosexuals have certain dna differences than heterosexuals, and the same for transgender? Could it get to the point that people could be tested and see the probability of having a gay child?

 

I edited my previous response with some links and information on how to find more scientific studies on the issue.

[Ipsey]

:001_huh:

 

Speaking from personal experience, this is not true. At all.

 

I'm very glad for this child, then!

Will she be supported in one day finding a same-sex mate and be told that she is just as much an important, loved, pure human being as straight people and that there's nothing wrong with her in terms of her sexuality?

 

If so, it would be the first time I've ever heard of it happening in the conservative Christian community.

[TheReader]

the people I know who are gay are of all different birth orders and genders and with all different gender siblings.

 

a 3rd born of 4 siblings, 2 older brothers, then him, then a younger sister. This was a family of "two sets" of kids -- ie, the 1st 2 are w/in 2 yrs of each other, then a 5 year gap, then the younger 2 (of which he was the older) were within 2 yrs of each other.

 

a 1st born female with a younger sister and younger brother

 

a 2nd born female with an older sister, younger brother

 

another 1st born female, with younger sisters

 

those are the ones I know well enough to know birth order. I don't really think birth order plays a role....

[amey311]

For further reading: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90273278 = treatment to postpone puberty in children with Gender Identity Disorder.