somehow this trend in education doesn't make sense to me!

[ktgrok]

My sister (who is not supportive of homeschooling) is a vice principal in the public school system. Last year she was in a middle school, this year a highschool. She is filling me in on how now kids take high school math starting in 7th grade, take AP science courses starting their freshman year, etc. That most have finished 2 years of college before graduation, including two years of AP calculus, AP physics, AP Biology, AP Chemistry, and possibly AP Environmental Science. That they teach Freshman Comp 1 and 2 at the highschool, because so many kids were dual enrolled, etc. Sounds fabulous....except with all this acceleration we do NOT seem to be turning out a bunch of math and science scholars. I mean, has there been a huge influx of scientists that I don't know about? Or kids that have great reading and writing skills, for that matter?

 

It seems that kids are taking more and more advanced classes, and yet still showing up in college less and less prepared, and less and less educated.

 

She can't comprehend that I care more about the actual math knowledge my son is receiving than about saving a years worth of tuition by accelerating him.

 

So...what are your thoughts? Particularly those actually out there, in the universities and colleges. What are you seeing? Is this trend working out?

[justamouse]

I was reading in my paper today that colleges are having too many problems with remedial work from kids coming out of HS, and then dropping out. The article said the colleges are collaborating with the HSs with AP courses, so that there is more control over the quality of students and they are less inclined to drop out.

[abbeyej]

Ask her what percentage of the kids in the AP classes are receiving 4s ad 5s on the exams? That's something I've seen lately with some schools. They boast that all of their kids are in AP classes, but the number of kids doing well on the exams hasn't increased. ... On the other hand, there *are* a *few* schools out there with strict entrance requirements that are legitimately getting many kids through the courses.

 

That said, dh is a professor at a "good" university and he's pretty convinced that the kids coming to him "don't know anything". ;) He says this is true regardless of where they went to high school. They may be able to do higher math (not his area), but they can't think and are pretty clueless about the world. ;)

[Mary in VA]

I would question what "most" means. I would want to see stats. I'm sure that might be true in some schools, but as a general rule over the whole US, I'd be surprised.

 

Mary

[ma23peas]

It seems that kids are taking more and more advanced classes, and yet still showing up in college less and less prepared, and less and less educated.

 

What are you seeing? Is this trend working out?

 

I think the trend started around 5 years ago..the strong push for many AP classes...my niece took about 7-8 of them, it allowed her to graduate Boston University in 2 years magna cum laude... starting graduate school at age 20. So, yes, I think it's working based on that example.

Not all students are as driven like my niece, she was mostly driven by financial...she had 75% tuition/expenses covered by scholarships but at 50k+ a year, spending 4 years there would have hurt her financially.

 

That is really the primary drive I see for all these AP classes, financial and to up your chances of getting financial aid. Most people are not as set on what school they get into as to which school gives them the most money. They have to be more and more competitive, AP classes helps in this regard.

 

I do not buy the link they are showing up less and less prepared, those are the ones that most likely made C's/D's in AP classes..if they took a load of AP classes, the workload alone would make college seem a breeze! My niece did not make a single grade below an A at BU. Her last two years of high school were spent doing so many assignments/projects for all those AP classes.

 

Generally, those kids who take the loads of AP classes do very well in college...they're driven...but many do not do well in college, I attribute that to lack of self-discipline and poor goals...not whether they had AP or not.

[FairProspects]

Doesn't a lot of this have to do with high school rankings? High schools get rated more highly for having large numbers of kids in their AP classes, they don't have to take the test or even do well in the class. There has been a big push for awhile now in the districts near me to get loads of kids into these classes in part because of the rankings. AP doesn't always mean much these days in terms of classes (not the tests themselves).

[Dmmetler]

From what I see (and admittedly, I'm in music, which isn't known for particularly mathy kids). kids have higher levels of high school credit on their transcripts, but are still testing into about the same math classes as always-for music majors, that's usually college algebra, even if they had calculus in high school, and sometimes "intermediate algebra" (which is the equivalent of about high school algebra II and doesn't give college credit). My university only gives advanced placement for a 4 or 5, and greatly limits the number and type of credits that a student can come in with, so even if the student has two years of theoretical credit on a high school transcript, unless they were actually a degree seeking student (in which case they'd be considered a transfer), they'll mostly get the opportunity to take higher level classes to fulfill that required English class, not that they'll get out of taking English.

 

Dual enrollment, no matter how many credits a student has, isn't considered transfer credit. The student actually has to have been a degree seeking student, with the credit counted only at the college level. In that case, you don't lose those credits-but again, they may or may not actually count towards a degree.

 

And my experience is that in most cases, advanced placement isn't a good thing. There are exceptions-but usually those are the kids who were actually full-grade accelerated and truly WERE college Sophomores at age 17-18 (and yes, many of these kids were homeschooled). The average 18 yr old with AP classes or the occasional dual enrollment class who was on a high school schedule the rest of the time usually isn't ready to handle a junior level workload, even if they theoretically have completed two years of college work. The difference between being a true college student and being a high school student using a college textbook is huge.

[Jyniffrec]

I was reading in my paper today that colleges are having too many problems with remedial work from kids coming out of HS, and then dropping out. The article said the colleges are collaborating with the HSs with AP courses, so that there is more control over the quality of students and they are less inclined to drop out.

 

So is this remedial work to prepare them for college or is it just going back to normal college prep high school?

 

There is a reason why most students used to take Algebra in 9th grade. I certainly wasn't ready for it until then, or even after 9th grade. I was no genius but I went to college and didn't drop out.

[Bang!Zoom!]

There is a whole bunch of stuff mixed in here to think about.

 

Teasing the large concepts into smaller divisions might help reach some fairly valid conclusions.

 

That's a huge mix of things to consider.

 

I'm sure there are studies both pro and con on the idea though.

[ktgrok]

I just found this article, from our state...saying kids that get 3s don't do that well in college after all. http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/florida-lawmakers-mull-changes-to-advanced-placement-college-1384494.html

[Bootsie]

This is a trend for the public schools in my area. The school districts are pushing the AP classes and the parents enjoy bragging about how many AP classes their kids are taking.

 

However, as a college professor I see these kids a couple of years after high school and am alarmed at how little they know. Math skills have been problematic for some time, but English skills are quickly becoming more problematic. Last year only about 5% of college students could correctly identify the subject and verb of a sentence they wrote. I had a student underline "of" as the subject of his sentence, one underline "very" as the verb of her sentence, etc.

 

Students are leaving high school with "college credits", but fewer colleges are excepting these "credits."

[Bang!Zoom!]

This is a 2 year old article but does lead to some nifty resource pathways.

 

The article with opinions:

 

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/20/the-advanced-placement-juggernaut/

 

The published work of one of the guests in the article:

 

http://www.amazon.com/AP-Critical-Examination-Advanced-Placement/dp/1934742554

 

There are lots o' mice to chase around there. :)

[Cera]

I think financial concerns are driving a lot of kids to try to graduate from college early. You can save tens of thousands of dollars by graduating in three years rather than four and it isn't all that hard to do with CLEPs, APs and dual enrollment.

 

It also seems like more and more careers are requiring a masters degree so it makes sense for kids to try to do their undergrad in three years to reduce the time spent in college right out of high school.

[Tap]

Ds16 is dual enrolled so I come from the positive side of this argument.

 

When I went to college, the first year was pretty much a repeat of my jr/sr year of highschool. Eng 101, 102 and history covered the same things. It was a waste of time and effort. Until I got to the more specialized classes, first year classes pretty much repeated highschool but at a faster pace.

 

Ds16 started college at 15 as a dual enrolled student. He took on year of traditional high school and was in all accelerate or pre-AP classes in his sophomore year. His highschool was a magnet within a large highschool. All of his classes were with kids who were in the Math, Science, Technology magnet. In theory these classes were supposed to be at a higher pace/intensity that other classes. He felt they were severely lacking and way too simplistic.

 

Kids here have the option to take some or all of their classes on the college campus starting their jr year, provided they test in to the college using compass tests. A small percentage take advantage of the program, but that still equates to 2,000 students this year, from all the highschools in our area (we live in a medium sized city).

 

I was very happy to see that he could miss the repeated year, and to move right on to the level of work he was capable of. The professors here are not allowed to know what a students age is (I am sure they can guess fairly accurately though), to discourage bending of expectations either way. One caveat that we have found, is that while ds is not repeating the year, many professors assume (rightfully so) that they students have already learned much of this material and that the college class is a refresher, not the sole instruction in that area. Ds16 does not ask for help, so I have seen his grades suffer a bit, when he gets a bit overwhelmed learning so much information at the college pace, instead of the high school pace.

 

We have learned to keep his credit load lower (no more than 2 hard academic classes at once, tempered with one easier class). This is a good pace for his mental fortitude at 16yo.

 

 

Ds sees no disadvantages for him. He is happy to be surrounded by students who are more focused on education and to be out of the horrid social situation of high school.

 

The teens that I know who are dual enrolled are much more mature and focused that their counter parts who stayed in the high schools.

 

I do agree that kids who are coming out of high school are not prepared for college. In ds16s English class they read 3 books for the entire year. 3, in pre-AP Enlgish! We used to read that many in a month at home! His science teacher (the dept head) was also a coach. She missed a class or left early almost one day a week and the substitute, may or may not have known anything about chemistry. This was for a pre-AP Chemitstry within the magnet. :confused: How these kids were supposed to pass AP exams, I have no idea.

 

The math program the school adopted was an integrated math program that combined and spread Alg 1, Alg 2, Geometry and trig over 4 years. The theory is that it combines the relative parts of each into one whole program. Great in theory, but where does that leave a kid who only takes 2 years? They have a bit of all, but not enough of one, to pass the compass test in to college algebra! And since there is no back tracking, any student who comes in mid sequence (ie a transferring jr) either has to start at the beginning or accept that fact that they will have huge holes in their math education. No traditionally sequenced classes were offered, so you had to choose.

 

Oh, man I could go on forever on this subject......I will let it go there....

 

 

ETA: ds was in the magent for 10 grade. After 10th grade was done, he enrolled in college as a dual enrolled student at 15yo, for his jr/sr years. He is young for his grade and will graduate at 17.

Edited August 21, 2011 by Tap, tap, tap

[Rosy]

We have had a dual enrollment program in WA state (called Running Start) for about 20 years. Students can opt to do their last two years of high school at their local community college, resulting in an AA and a diploma being earned simultaneously. It is a very popular program, you have to test into it, but it allows serious students to accelerate their educations. I am hoping the program still exists when my kids are high schoolers.

 

A full year high school class is roughly equal to a 1 quarter college class in breadth and depth. So while a dual enrolled student is getting less education to get the same degree, it isn't much less. It also makes it possible for students to attend college who might not be able to otherwise.

 

I personally believe most high school classes are a waste of time--if a student can take a 100-level English course at the college, he or she will be learning what would have been learned in high school jr. and sr. English in one or two quarters, and will then be able to move on to further English studies.

 

Pushing kids through who aren't ready for higher learning is unwise. But holding kids back who are ready is also unwise. I believe the public high school system has far less to offer than community and 4-year colleges, and kids are better off getting in sooner if they are ready to learn on that level.

[In The Great White North]

Ds16 started college at 15 as a dual enrolled student. He took on year of traditional high school and was in all accelerate or pre-AP classes in his sophomore year. His highschool was a magnet within a large highschool. All of his classes were with kids who were in the Math, Science, Technology magnet.

 

Am I missing something? Is he getting college credit for pre-AP courses?

[catz]

I would question what "most" means. I would want to see stats. I'm sure that might be true in some schools, but as a general rule over the whole US, I'd be surprised.

 

Mary

 

:iagree: I'd be shocked if more than a small percentage was actually doing that. And regardless, I'd like to see test scores and AP scores to go along with that.

 

I am wildly in favor of acceleration and dual enrollment. And I know a number of kids locally that do this. But "most"? Not even close. And I live in a high achieving area in general compared to most parts of the country.

[Bang!Zoom!]

This is a shortie, but is good background:

 

http://www.doe.in.gov/opd/advpla/docs/IDOE_Summary_of_Research.pdf

 

Small excerpt:

 

 

How well do Advanced Placement students perform on the TIMSS Advanced Mathematics and Physics

tests? Gonzalez, E. J., O’Connor, K. M., & Miles, J. (2001). The International Study Center: Boston College.

 

The researches administered the TIMSS Advanced Mathematics and Physics tests to students enrolled in

AP Calculus and AP Physics courses.

 

The performance of these AP students was then compared to the

performance of students in 16 countries who took the same assessments.

 

They found that:

 

1) Students enrolled in AP Calculus had the highest average performance on the TIMSS Advanced

Mathematics test, significantly outperforming students in all other countries except France.

 

AP

students that took the AP exam and earned a grade of 3 or better outperformed students in all other

countries on the TIMSS, including France.

 

2) Students enrolled in AP Physics courses scored significantly better than students in all other countries except Norway and Sweden.

 

AP students that took the AP exam and earned a grade of 3 or

better scored higher than students in all other countries on the TIMSS

 

And if you are really a stat monster, you can find them here:

 

http://professionals.collegeboard.com/data-reports-research/ap/data

 

Have fun. :)

Edited August 21, 2011 by one*mom

[ktgrok]

We have had a dual enrollment program in WA state (called Running Start) for about 20 years. Students can opt to do their last two years of high school at their local community college, resulting in an AA and a diploma being earned simultaneously. It is a very popular program, you have to test into it, but it allows serious students to accelerate their educations. I am hoping the program still exists when my kids are high schoolers.

 

A full year high school class is roughly equal to a 1 quarter college class in breadth and depth. So while a dual enrolled student is getting less education to get the same degree, it isn't much less. It also makes it possible for students to attend college who might not be able to otherwise.

 

I personally believe most high school classes are a waste of time--if a student can take a 100-level English course at the college, he or she will be learning what would have been learned in high school jr. and sr. English in one or two quarters, and will then be able to move on to further English studies.

 

Pushing kids through who aren't ready for higher learning is unwise. But holding kids back who are ready is also unwise. I believe the public high school system has far less to offer than community and 4-year colleges, and kids are better off getting in sooner if they are ready to learn on that level.

That in its own is an issue though, isn't it? I mean, why are the high school classes so crappy? I learned more in two of my highschool english classes than I did in any of my college english classes, and I was an English major for 3 years! I had wonderful teachers that really taught the basics of literary analysis and composition. None of my college teachers did that. They assumed those things were learned. They didn't teach you HOW to write a paper, they told you to write a paper. They didn't tell you HOW to analyze literature, they just wanted you to write a paper analyzing it. I mean yes, in my advanced fiction courses we learned more about analysis, but the basics were learned in highschool. I was obviously very blessed. But that is what highschool SHOULD be. It should lay the framework, just like TWTM talks about. It seems that skipping onto college without that framework is a disaster waiting to happen.

 

And kids taking AP courses their freshman year seems crazy to me!

0

[In The Great White North]

The performance of these AP students was then compared to the

performance of students in 16 countries who took the same assessments.

 

The article doesn't say what level the students in other countries were. Kind of like comparing apples to unknowns.

[Tap]

e more about the actual math knowledge my son is receiving than about saving a years worth of tuition by accelerating him.

 

Well, as far as math goes....Then benefit is that your son can test in higher and avoid having to take the lower level classes if he is going into a math/science career which requires higher level math classes.

 

Ds16 took the compass test and tested very firmly into College Calculus. He is a chem major and the lowest level math class for his degree is College Calculus. Do to his home schooled math, he was able to skip College Algebra and Trig. This saved us the time and tuition for 2 classes! I would say that it was a huge benefit! There would be no benefit for him to take an AP class/credit, it would only be an elective credit that it saved him (since it was below the lowest class toward his degree). I prefer to see him take electives that broaden his education and round him off a bit!

[Bang!Zoom!]

The article doesn't say what level the students in other countries were. Kind of like comparing apples to unknowns.

 

I'm pretty sure digging up the full version of the report would account for all significant comparison variables such as age/country etc., for it to be in a peer-reviewed work.

 

It's probably just a matter of digging it up.

[dakarimom5]

My local high school, the one my DSD goes too does not offer anything but honors or AP classes. You can not get a tech diploma or just a general education diploma. IMO this is causing a rise in children taking summer school at $200 a class.:glare: I have not been able to get my hands on any reliable reports about drop out rates. But if you drop out here, you lose your driver's license.

[In The Great White North]

I believe the public high school system has far less to offer than community and 4-year colleges, and kids are better off getting in sooner if they are ready to learn on that level.

 

This really depends on your community colleges. Around here, the high school has more to offer.

 

The four year college has more, but you can't take a course there til you've exhausted the high school options for that subject (if you're enrolled in the high school.)

[Tap]

Am I missing something? Is he getting college credit for pre-AP courses?

 

No, his sophomore year was at the highschool magnet in pre-AP classes. After his 10 grade year was finished, he enrolled in college as a dual enrolled student for his jr and sr years of high school. He is a bit young for his grade, he will graduate highschool at 17.

[Rosy]

That in its own is an issue though, isn't it? I mean, why are the high school classes so crappy? I learned more in two of my highschool english classes than I did in any of my college english classes, and I was an English major for 3 years! I had wonderful teachers that really taught the basics of literary analysis and composition. None of my college teachers did that. They assumed those things were learned. They didn't teach you HOW to write a paper, they told you to write a paper. They didn't tell you HOW to analyze literature, they just wanted you to write a paper analyzing it. I mean yes, in my advanced fiction courses we learned more about analysis, but the basics were learned in highschool. I was obviously very blessed. But that is what highschool SHOULD be. It should lay the framework, just like TWTM talks about. It seems that skipping onto college without that framework is a disaster waiting to happen.

 

And kids taking AP courses their freshman year seems crazy to me!

0

 

Yes, it should...but for the most part, I don't think it is that way. When I was in high school, the only classes that were worth taking were the challenge (honors) classes. I don't think dual enrollment is for everyone, I think testing should be done to make sure that students are ready for the pace and the higher level of academic work.

 

For the record, I did one year in community college and it was a joke. Maybe the problem isn't so much at the high school level, but at the college level? I guess it all kind of flows together--students leave high school ill-prepared for college, so the colleges dumb down their classes. Either way, the community college classes I took weren't worthy of someone who graduated high school with a quality education.

 

So if college classes were adequately challenging and high school classes adequately prepared students for college, I might rethink my position.

[happyhomemaker25]

My middle and senior high school was structured just like this, but I went to a public college prep school. Colleges actively recruited from our school so I guess we had a good track record.

I don't know that other schools in our area work this way. I know the high school right up the street from my house has a horrible rating and I think they said something like 50% of the kids are not even reading at grade level. I can't imagine that they would be taking AP classes there.

[Caroline]

 

That said, dh is a professor at a "good" university and he's pretty convinced that the kids coming to him "don't know anything". ;) He says this is true regardless of where they went to high school. They may be able to do higher math (not his area), but they can't think and are pretty clueless about the world. ;)

 

I graduated from said "good" university 13 years ago. Professors were saying the same thing then, except that the kids from in state couldn't do higher level math. My parents both graduated from different good universities in the 1950's. Professors said the same thing then.

[Renee in NC]

That in its own is an issue though, isn't it? I mean, why are the high school classes so crappy? I learned more in two of my highschool english classes than I did in any of my college english classes, and I was an English major for 3 years! I had wonderful teachers that really taught the basics of literary analysis and composition. None of my college teachers did that. They assumed those things were learned. They didn't teach you HOW to write a paper, they told you to write a paper. They didn't tell you HOW to analyze literature, they just wanted you to write a paper analyzing it. I mean yes, in my advanced fiction courses we learned more about analysis, but the basics were learned in highschool. I was obviously very blessed. But that is what highschool SHOULD be. It should lay the framework, just like TWTM talks about. It seems that skipping onto college without that framework is a disaster waiting to happen.

 

And kids taking AP courses their freshman year seems crazy to me!

0

 

It happens because of the push to have everyone be college prep (here in NC it's called Future-Ready Core and EVERYONE is required to meet the requirements.) This means that the courses have to be dumbed-down or few will graduate. A science teacher at the local high school told my cousin (who had been in his class 30+ years ago) that today's "honors" was the general class of his time.

 

I believe it.

[Renee in NC]

Yes, it should...but for the most part, I don't think it is that way. When I was in high school, the only classes that were worth taking were the challenge (honors) classes. I don't think dual enrollment is for everyone, I think testing should be done to make sure that students are ready for the pace and the higher level of academic work.

 

For the record, I did one year in community college and it was a joke. Maybe the problem isn't so much at the high school level, but at the college level? I guess it all kind of flows together--students leave high school ill-prepared for college, so the colleges dumb down their classes. Either way, the community college classes I took weren't worthy of someone who graduated high school with a quality education.

So if college classes were adequately challenging and high school classes adequately prepared students for college, I might rethink my position.

 

:iagree: And I didn't graduate with a quality education because I dropped out after the 10th grade.

[creekland]

It all depends on the high school.

 

Locally, we have many kids in advanced classes (not AP as our school doesn't offer those - except AP European History), but those same kids usually do not learn much and many test into remedial classes once they reach college. (There are exceptions.) Our school dropped AP in favor of dual enrollment when very few kids took AP tests and even fewer could score better than a 2. The AP test is essentially a "final" in the course, so if the test scores are dismal, it accurately indicates the learning level that I see now that the classes have changed focus. However, when the kids are in dual enrollment and still get "credit" (that they wouldn't have received with a 2 or 3 on an AP test), then they go to college unprepared as was reported in a previous thread.

 

However, where I went to school (many moons ago) we had AP classes that prepared us well. Most kids scored 4 or 5 on the tests and then went on to top level colleges and did well. If we couldn't keep up with the AP class level, we got moved to a different level instead of having the class dumbed down for us. We did start high school levels early, but did well.

 

As we've been in the college hunt, I've found that the majority of the colleges like seeing AP TESTS (and scores) for assessing students (along with their ACT/SAT scores). Just having AP classes isn't saying anything useful for most of them (as they've told us). Mid to higher level private colleges have also told us they prefer AP to community college courses as they know what is covered with AP. CC classes vary. Some are good and some are not. I fully regret not having had my middle son do more AP tests as we went the cc route similar to our local high school. Outside of our state colleges, cc is risky. We'll need to send the syllabus of his course to future colleges for them to determine if they will allow credit or not. (Actually, the cc will send the info after we request it.)

 

My youngest will be self studying and taking AP tests even though he's in our local public high school. There's that big of a difference in what colleges prefer esp when wanting to be competitive for merit aid. He's heard the same spiels we've heard and is ok with it. (If we just wanted in-state 4 year schools, this would not be an issue. Mine want out of state and/or private.)

[Bang!Zoom!]

You are probably already familiar with this, but throwing it out there in case it is helpful to someone else:

 

http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/subjects.html

 

There are EDG's there you can subscribe to, as well as text discussion areas. :)

 

For the 6th grade level and the Pre Ap, there is info here:

 

http://springboardprogram.collegeboard.org/?affiliateId=rdr&bannerId=springboard

Edited August 21, 2011 by one*mom

[MBM]

My son's high school does not allow students to take AP courses until their junior year with a few exceptions for some sophomores. The school wants freshman to move into high school without having the pressures of AP classes on them too early. (The non-AP classes are plenty challenging, IMO.) Because of this, the school is often downgraded a bit despite it being a public high school with students having received an average composite score of 27.5 on the ACT last year. The AP stats for 2009 -- 2010 were as follows:

 

850 students took 1,939 Advanced Placement Exams in spring 2010.

48% of the scores were 5

32% of the scores were 4

14% of the scores were 3

 

Not all universities and colleges accept AP classes anyway.

[snowbeltmom]

Mid to higher level private colleges have also told us they prefer AP to community college courses as they know what is covered with AP.

 

An admissions officers at our local community college also said that it is better to go the AP route vs. the cc route if applying to mid to high level privates.

[creekland]

 

850 students took 1,939 Advanced Placement Exams in spring 2010.

48% of the scores were 5

32% of the scores were 4

14% of the scores were 3

 

Not all universities and colleges accept AP classes anyway.

 

This, alone, shows me they are a really good school and one my sons would probably be attending if we lived in that area. (We homeschool for academic reasons.)

 

Universities and colleges that don't accept AP credits generally expect to see them for admissions. When my guys take a cc course or do an AP test, it's solely for admissions (well, that and I want them to have the actual education! ;)). If they get credit later, that's a bonus.

[happyhomemaker25]

It happens because of the push to have everyone be college prep (here in NC it's called Future-Ready Core and EVERYONE is required to meet the requirements.) This means that the courses have to be dumbed-down or few will graduate. A science teacher at the local high school told my cousin (who had been in his class 30+ years ago) that today's "honors" was the general class of his time.

 

I believe it.

 

I don't really understand this. I might be in the minority on this thought, but I don't think college is for everyone. I really think this is where we make the mistake of forcing a square peg into a round hole. Some kids are just not cut out for the rigors of college life. We should be offering more life prep for some of these kids, I think.

[Aubrey]

I would question what "most" means. I would want to see stats. I'm sure that might be true in some schools, but as a general rule over the whole US, I'd be surprised.

 

Mary

 

:iagree:

 

Unless they're putting kids in AP classes just for the #s--as pp said, "XX are enrolled in AP!!" but still the same # passing the exams--then your sil's information contains a logical fallacy. It's either in the word "most" or in the implication that # enrolled = # who succeed.

There is a whole bunch of stuff mixed in here to think about.

 

Teasing the large concepts into smaller divisions might help reach some fairly valid conclusions.

 

I think the above is very true. In talking to a few current college kids I know, they all say that they worked much harder their last two years of (public) high school than the first two years of college, and the first two years of college are essentially a repeat of their AP-heavy high school years. This correlates with a recent study (sorry, no link) that shows that college kids don't learn much in their first two years.

 

This seems to jive with the statistics that the number of AP classes has skyrocketed in the last ten years. I'd love to know how many AP tests MBM's school took in, say, 2005, or 2000 -- I bet the number would be less than half the current number. My guess is that college curricula haven't changed to match this sea change in their incoming student body.

 

At the same time, we hear complaints from college faculty that students can't think or are sub-par in fundamental fields. How can this be true, given the above?

 

I believe they are both true -- that there is a large cohort of high school grads who have worked very hard in high school and taken many college-equivalent classes, and are much better prepared for college work than the good students, say, ten years ago. At the same time, the lesser prepared students have passed by focusing on test-taking skills instead of really learning, and they are much less ready for college than their peers of ten years ago.

[learningmama]

I've seen this trend too. Where my dad worked as an AP History teacher, students HAD to take a few AP courses to earn an Honors Diploma. Fifteen years ago, I received an Honors Diploma without ever having to take an AP course. My dh is in law school. These are the "best and brightest" coming out of the universities. Let's just say these students have not demonstrated that to him quite yet.

 

I think the AP courses, dual admission, etc. is all about the ramped-up competition. It's rough out there in high school, college, and grad school. Everyone wants more, more, and MORE out of these students. Students complete the requirements, but no, "intelligence" is not increasing.

[EmilyGF]

\.my niece took about 7-8 of them, it allowed her to graduate Boston University in 2 years magna cum laude... starting graduate school at age 20.

 

What did your niece graduate in? I don't think it would work in math or sciences because AP math and science classes are so inferior to (good) college classes.

 

Caltech won't accept any AP credit.

 

Emily

[MBM]

This seems to jive with the statistics that the number of AP classes has skyrocketed in the last ten years. I'd love to know how many AP tests MBM's school took in, say, 2005, or 2000 -- I bet the number would be less than half the current number. My guess is that college curricula haven't changed to match this sea change in their incoming student body.

 

I can only find info for 2006 at the moment. I can't find info for earlier years.

 

2006 AP STATISTICS

 

• 840 students took 1,986 AP exams in spring 2006

• 39% received scores of 5

• 33% received scores of 4

• 21% received scores of 3

 

• 93% received scores of 3 or better (the score typically necessary to receive college credit)

 

• 4.0 average score

 

At the same time, we hear complaints from college faculty that students can't think or are sub-par in fundamental fields. How can this be true, given the above?

 

I believe they are both true -- that there is a large cohort of high school grads who have worked very hard in high school and taken many college-equivalent classes, and are much better prepared for college work than the good students, say, ten years ago. At the same time, the lesser prepared students have passed by focusing on test-taking skills instead of really learning, and they are much less ready for college than their peers of ten years ago.

 

Yes, that's how I see it, too.

Edited August 22, 2011 by MBM
distracted by my mystery show

I can only find info for 2006 at the moment. I can't find info for earlier years.

 

2006 AP STATISTICS

 

• 840 students took 1,986 AP exams in spring 2006

 

 

MBM: Thanks for the data!

 

So I was complete wrong about the number of AP tests jumping in the last four years. :-(

 

But I still think that this 850 kids taking 2,000 tests is significantly higher, than, say, ten years ago, and that the high achievers are working much, much harder than ten years ago.

[MBM]

MBM: Thanks for the data!

 

So I was complete wrong about the number of AP tests jumping in the last four years. :-(

 

But I still think that this 850 kids taking 2,000 tests is significantly higher, than, say, ten years ago, and that the high achievers are working much, much harder than ten years ago.

 

I'm curious now and am going to try to find out which way the trend is going. Several years ago the school stopped allowing students from taking a course during lunch hour because some wouldn't eat much of a lunch or take a break. That's probably affected the numbers, too.

[ondreeuh]

Her school's website may have the course catalog available. I think is she is likely exaggerating how many kids take those courses. My dd's school offered many AP courses and is an IB school, but they still had plenty of kids who were on an average or below-average academic path.

[Bang!Zoom!]

The data reports for AP are here:

 

http://professionals.collegeboard.com/data-reports-research/ap/data

 

The state by state report breakdowns are here:

 

http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/exgrd_sum/2010.html

 

From the AP fast facts:

 

Fast facts about AP Exams

 

In 2011, 3.4 million exams were taken by nearly 2 million students at over 18,000 high schools.

 

The AP Program offers 34 courses in a wide variety of subject areas.

 

The majority of U.S. high schools currently participate in the AP Program.

 

Except for the three Studio Art exams, which are portfolio assessments, AP Exams contain multiple-choice questions and a free-response section.

 

Because the College Board is committed to providing access to AP Exams to all students—including homeschooled students and students whose schools do not offer AP—students do not have to take an AP course before taking an AP Exam.

 

The AP Exam fee is $87 per exam. The fee for exams administered outside of the United States and Canada is $117 per exam. The College Board provides a $22 fee reduction for qualifying low-income students. Most states use federal and/or state funds to cover part or all of the remaining exam fee for low-income students.

 

More than 3,800 colleges and universities annually receive AP Exam scores. Most four-year colleges in the United States provide credit and/or advanced placement for qualifying scores.

Edited August 22, 2011 by one*mom

[lovemyboys]

So is this remedial work to prepare them for college or is it just going back to normal college prep high school?

 

There is a reason why most students used to take Algebra in 9th grade. I certainly wasn't ready for it until then, or even after 9th grade. I was no genius but I went to college and didn't drop out.

 

I think you have a point here. These programs (AP & IB) that have such a strong push in high school may not be allowing kids who are just 13, 14, 15 to mature into the understanding that some subjects like advanced maths, literature and competent writing require.

 

Sure, it looks good on the transcripts and they "up" the GPAs, but is the student really mastering the material or simply moving through the course? Some kids will always be very strong academically, but with all the kids needing remediation in college, it looks like mastery isn't occurring in high school.

 

(Btw, if you're looking for a conversational counterpoint for your sil, that's what I would mention -- the mastery aspect.)

 

:001_smile:

[ktgrok]

I think you have a point here. These programs (AP & IB) that have such a strong push in high school may not be allowing kids who are just 13, 14, 15 to mature into the understanding that some subjects like advanced maths, literature and competent writing require.

 

Sure, it looks good on the transcripts and they "up" the GPAs, but is the student really mastering the material or simply moving through the course? Some kids will always be very strong academically, but with all the kids needing remediation in college, it looks like mastery isn't occurring in high school.

 

(Btw, if you're looking for a conversational counterpoint for your sil, that's what I would mention -- the mastery aspect.)

 

:001_smile:

 

I did bring that up. Twice. She kept going back to the cost savings of having extra college courses paid for. I don't think she cares about mastery as much as what goes on paper.

[lovemyboys]

I don't really understand this. I might be in the minority on this thought, but I don't think college is for everyone. I really think this is where we make the mistake of forcing a square peg into a round hole. Some kids are just not cut out for the rigors of college life. We should be offering more life prep for some of these kids, I think.

 

 

 

Bravo, I sooo agree with this. It's such a mistake to assume that every person wants or needs a liberal arts or similar college degree, especially at the current costs! There are people who want an apprenticeship, a trade, the military, to start a small business, to go to a technical school or just go straight to work out of high school. General classes should be reasonably available for them, including civics and personal finance.

 

For those who want college degrees, more power to them. Many careers need at least one degree. But it's time to stop dumbing down high school and then throwing most of the grads at college where the colleges have to back-pedal to catch the kids up to entry-level academics. It's a colossal waste of time and money.

 

But even worse, since I'm on a roll ( ;) ), I think it's very demoralizing for some kids to be told they have to go to college and then not be able to keep up with the "rigors of college life" as you put it. Starting out your adult life dropping out and having bills to deal with on top of that, well, just a bum deal.

[justamouse]

We just got a letter from Dd16's school with information that they were connecting to a virtual school and a list of over 100 extra classes and AP courses that were offered (as it is the school offers a large amount of AP courses). The only stipulations is that they maintain a B or higher in all regular classes.

 

For the self motivated, I can imagine it's a golden opportunity.

[justamouse]

I did bring that up. Twice. She kept going back to the cost savings of having extra college courses paid for. I don't think she cares about mastery as much as what goes on paper.

 

She's on the hamster wheel. All she sees is test scores and stats of her school.