Warning, vent ahead: I. Hate. IEW.

[Beth in SW WA]

You misrepresent my objection, one which I made quite clearly.

 

My problem is not with Andrew Pudewa's lack of a degree (although his lack of higher education does raise concerns) it is with the claim that he is the "Director" of an "Institute." It clearly is not the case.

 

When people make these sorts of misrepresentations about themselves, and they also promote people like Oliver DeMille who has misrepresented his credentials (and who runs a diploma mill) it raises doubts in my mind as to issues of character.

 

Add all the worldview components that some may find refreshing (but I don't) and an education model that I find unappealing, and I'm left with little to like.

 

I'm more than a little surprised that people don't have a problem with the man's claim to be the Director of an Institute, when there is no such Institute. Does this inflation (understatement) of his job description sit well with you?

 

Bill

 

Bill, my dd adores Andrew Pudewa.

 

Drat! She never asked me for his résumé. :)

[LizzyBee]

You misrepresent my objection, one which I made quite clearly.

 

My problem is not with Andrew Pudewa's lack of a degree (although his lack of higher education does raise concerns) it is with the claim that he is the "Director" of an "Institute." It clearly is not the case.

 

When people make these sorts of misrepresentations about themselves, and they also promote people like Oliver DeMille who has misrepresented his credentials (and who runs a diploma mill) it raises doubts in my mind as to issues of character.

 

Add all the worldview components that some may find refreshing (but I don't) and an education model that I find unappealing, and I'm left with little to like.

 

I'm more than a little surprised that people don't have a problem with the man's claim to be the Director of an Institute, when there is no such Institute. Does this inflation (understatement) of his job description sit well with you?

 

Bill

 

I have always just thought that Institute for Excellence in Writing is the name of his company and as director of the institute, Andrew is the president of his company. It honestly has never occurred to me that there might be or should be a brick and mortar institute or that Andrew has attempted to imply that there is one.

[Spy Car]

I have always just thought that Institute for Excellence in Writing is the name of his company and as director of the institute, Andrew is the president of his company. It honestly has never occurred to me that there might be or should be a brick and mortar institute or that Andrew has attempted to imply that there is one.

 

If language means anything (and it would be ironic if he thought it didn't) one can't just call ones private small-business an "Institute" because one thinks it sounds prestigious (or something).

 

Bill

[Mommyof4ks]

There, I said it.

 

Everyone I know loves it and thinks it's the greatest invention since the graphite pencil or the word processor, but I hate it.

 

For starters, HOW is this not just a great way to teach kids a method of glorified plagiarism?

 

It's like stealing blank paper, sketch pencils, charcoal, pastels, and watercolor from an artist, and giving them cheap magic markers and color by number pages.

 

Our first week of Classical Conversations Challenge A is not going well. Had I known that IEW was pervasive across the curriculum and not just in the writing class, I doubt I would have enrolled my child. I figured, one writing class, one semester -- suck it up and get through the 15 weeks. But it's in the

science, too. Her lovely little three paragraph essay on algae -- not acceptable

because it is not in IEW format. Her paragraph on Noah is all stilted and weird

because she HAD to include that who clause and that 'ly word. :glare:

 

 

You're kidding me. 30 weeks of this? I'm gonna die.

 

I would talk to the tutor and let them know that your dd already knows how to outline, use the dress ups, and so on, and ask that she be allowed freedom to explore a different way of writing. My dd took essentials last year, and this year we will do that again with more freedom, but in challenge we will move on. CC tutors are not supposed to trump parent choice, but rather work with parents to make the experience what the child needs. Does the tutor know that you are not happy with the IEW style?

[Veritaserum]

I have always just thought that Institute for Excellence in Writing is the name of his company and as director of the institute, Andrew is the president of his company. It honestly has never occurred to me that there might be or should be a brick and mortar institute or that Andrew has attempted to imply that there is one.

 

:iagree: Yes, and he's also open about his lack of degree and that the program is based on Professor Webster's checklists. I despise DeMille's dishonesty regarding his educational background and his "university" is a joke, so Pudewa is a step above him. I felt ill when Pudewa started endorsing DeMille. :thumbdown: I feel like I left a cult when I abandoned TJEd. *shudder*

 

I do feel something of a moral dilemma about using IEW after becoming more familiar with the worldview espoused by Pudewa and others at his company. It does work for dd9, though, so I'm hesitant to switch....

[Plaid Dad]

Back when we were in a classical cottage school, the middle-school kids used IEW with another parent-teacher. I made a point of watching the videos along with the class and was asked to review some of their writing assignments. I was singularly unimpressed with what I saw. The students' writing was formulaic and so loaded down with "add-ons" that it was nearly unreadable. Even those who were natural writers ended up ignoring their good instincts and producing awful prose. WWE is a far better - and more affordable - program for parents who want a highly scripted program.

[Jim]

If language means anything (and it would be ironic if he thought it didn't) one can't just call ones private small-business an "Institute" because one thinks it sounds prestigious (or something).

 

Bill

 

You can. They are all around us, from think tanks to educational organizations and beyond.

 

In your original post you did memtion his lack of educational credentials. I simply mentioned that the teachers that I ran into at our local ps that HAVE credentials from institutions of higher education leave a lot to be desired. My experience proves to me that simply having some organization say you know something means little. I'd have to study the organziation that backs the credentials handed out and, if you live in my area, you'd understand that any educational organization, public, private, and higher leaves plenty to be desired. I would label the local State Colleges as nothing more than diploma mills. I base that on what I've experienced locally.

 

He is very open about where the methods he favors come from; they are not his. He has videos showing his small building from which IEW is run. He's not hiding anything.

 

Just because I enjoy the writing methods he touts does not mean I agree with him on everything. He's anti-testing. I, for one, like to know where ds ranks. He will have to compete with his peers one day and I want to ensure that I don't short change him when it comes to his education. To do this I need to see national test scores since state scores are a joke. Perhaps you've read about the little cheating scandel recently in the Atlanta area. Or the grade inflation that teachers readily admit to. So it's national test for me and more often than the state requires.

 

I hear you on the Civil War. Not being a southerner I take every opportunity to point out that the first shots originaltes from southern cannons. But, I've read plenty of books that call it by the same title.

 

Bill, I typical enjoy your posts. I enjoy them because you tend to have a strong opinion. It is the very reason I pay attention. When I see that whale I make sure to read what lies above it. In this case I simply, correctly or not, disagree that good info has to come for someone ordained by another organizations. And that is how I read your original post.

 

The program he promotes has made writing painless for my son. At the same time I see ps kids in tears. Now, if ds was a natural writer it might be different. I wish he was a natural writer but wishing does not make it so.

 

We'll simply have to agree to disagree on this one. Typically, I'm with you when you chime in with opinions. I'll keep looking for them

 

Jim

[Brenda in FL]

Wow, great responses and food for thought.

As to the comment that IEW is used in the upper levels -- I must be missing something major. I have a daughter in Challenge III, and she does not have to use ANY IEW materials OR write any papers in the IEW format. The instructions that she is given in her guide as to how to write her essays, etc, are what I would consider very traditional, MLA format writing (the way I was taught). I am prepping to tutor Challenge II next year, and there is NO mention of IEW anywhere in my materials that I can find. I don't recall seeing anything in Challenge B, either. So, I'm rather hoping that if we can muddle through this year (and perhaps strike a compromise with our tutor for Challenge A) we will be able to move on. If I look more closely and discover that IEW is, in fact, an integral part of the entire Challenge program? We'll be moving on to something else.

 

This is what I'd expect. By the time our children reach the rhetoric stage, they should now be able to use the structures taught in IEW and naturally apply the stylistic techniques to their papers. I think that is why as adults we can get frustrated with all the requirements of an IEW paper. We forget that our logic stage kids still need to learn about style, left to themselves, most would probably do the minimum to get a writing assignment done! In actuality those IEW papers are training grounds with the goal that our children will recognize to use stronger verbs, to utilize adjectives and adverbs to make their papers more interesting, and to add sentence variety. By High School this should be the natural progression, no more training required.

 

I was a little worried to hear that IEW was still used in the high school years. I can understand that the tutors may refer to the structures taught in IEW depending on the type of paper assigned, and they may have to help along some students with style if they haven't been previously trained. I would be disappointed to find out that all the students are still writing papers with checklists though!

 

Incidently, I too was a little surprised to learn that the science paper would be an IEW type paper, but now that I think about it - it makes sense. I'm wondering though if they are supposed to add dress-ups and such. I know they are using the fused outline for structure. I have a suspicion that my son was not too careful to write down the expectations of his assignments!

[christine in al]

To , OP, can you not switch to WWE/WWS ?

Can you tell tutor to use those things instead?

If a program is truly not working,,, DONT waste a year of your child's life on it, sell it and move on. I 'm sorry I can't remember if that's an option for you or not,

 

good luck.

~christine in al.

[Beth in SW WA]

WWE is a far better - and more affordable - program for parents who want a highly scripted program.

 

Drew, surely you know that WWE deals with completely different skills than IEW. Writing narrations and dictations per WWE won't touch the paragraph-writing skills of a program like IEW for early elementary.

 

Fwiw, I use both with my dc (among other methods).

 

Dd8 wrote 5 strong paragraphs (6-8 sentences each) last week using IEW structure and style (original writing -- not from a KWO). Are you claiming that is negative in any way? :confused: Are you claiming that folks should not use IEW? One may nit-pick the credentials of Andrew Pudewa. But please don't claim that IEW produces 'awful, unreadable' writers. That's insulting.

 

ETA: Sorry, Drew. I've been thinking about this today and I want to apologize for accusing you of insulting me -- which, of course, you have not done. (insert peace-offering smiley)

Edited August 22, 2011 by Beth in SW WA
apology

[Penelope]

To each their own as to which program, they will use, but I disagree that one has to use a program themselves to have an opinion on it. Don't we do that with curriculum all the time? As long as the caveat is there that someone hasn't used it, no problem.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Penelope

[Beth in SW WA]

To each their own as to which program, they will use, but I disagree that one has to use a program themselves to have an opinion on it. Don't we do that with curriculum all the time? As long as the caveat is there that someone hasn't used it, no problem.

 

:iagree: Of course you don't need to use a program to express an opinion. The purpose of these boards is for us to share opinions.

 

What I detest is the elitism and negativity that some folks have towards a program in which they have no personal experience with their own dc -- and where they have the audacity to tell others that usage of said program will result in dire consequences (in essence, claiming that those who use said program are idiots). Essentially.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Drew, surely you know that WWE deals with completely different skills than IEW. Writing narrations and dictations per WWE won't touch the paragraph-writing skills of a program like IEW for early elementary.

 

Fwiw, I use both with my dc (among other methods).

 

Dd8 wrote 5 strong paragraphs (6-8 sentences each) last week using IEW structure and style (original writing -- not from a KWO). Are you claiming that is negative in any way? :confused: Are you claiming that folks should not use IEW? One may nit-pick the credentials of Andrew Pudewa. But please don't claim that IEW produces 'awful, unreadable' writers. That's insulting.

 

Perhaps, writing paragraphs per se is not necessary in early elementary and WWE lays a strong foundation for the same which then leads to her new series WWS... IMHO I think Drew gave his experiences of IEW and I do not think that is insulting at all. He watched the videos and evaluated student writings with IEW. I think that gives him the right to his opinion:) You have your opinion:)

[Jim]

:iagree: with Beth

 

What if I looked at someones tag line and pulled out the math program they use and, without much knowledge about it, simply stated the program is bad and they are wrong to use it. If it is working for their child than it is one of the right choices. Most of us are smart enough to monitor progress and make adjustments as necessary. I doubt any of us would see it through it it wasn't working.

 

I can love IEW and how it has helped my child. You can say you don't like it based on your knowledge of the program or your experience actually using it, that's fine. But this thread has gone well beyond it by attacking the person promoting it. I will draw the line there. Personal attacks are not needed and prove nothing.

 

As I stated earlier, I have some disagreements with his opinions but his writing program works for us and so we use it. If we find it no longer works then we will move to something else. For full disclosure we also use WWE. I believe they work on different skills.

 

Beside the program itself, I find his 100% refund policy (with no time limit) refreshing. To me it means he stands behind his product and is willing to give up the profit earned by the sale if you find it doesn't work for you. That compares with a recent thread about a company that doesn't want you to reuse or sell their product. It's a striking difference.

 

IEW takes it a step further by supporting a Buy/Sale forum. They do not profit from it. How many companies do that? It might speak to his desire to help children lear to write. It's not the only way but it's a possible way.

 

Of course, all this is my personal opinion. I have an opinion because I researched the product and have experience with it. I tend not to have an opinion on products I haven't either researched deeply or have used.

 

 

Jim

[LizzyBee]

If language means anything (and it would be ironic if he thought it didn't) one can't just call ones private small-business an "Institute" because one thinks it sounds prestigious (or something).

 

Bill

 

That may be true. However, based on the dictionary definitions of institute, I don't think there's anything misleading at all about the name of the company.

[Beth in SW WA]

Perhaps, writing paragraphs per se is not necessary in early elementary and WWE lays a strong foundation for the same which then leads to her new series WWS...

 

 

???

 

 

IMHO I think Drew gave his experiences of IEW and I do not think that is insulting at all. He watched the videos and evaluated student writings with IEW. I think that gives him the right to his opinion:) You have your opinion:)

 

Priscilla, Please refer to the statement I made to Drew.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Priscilla, Please refer to the statement I made to Drew.

 

I am just making my pitch for SWB's methods;). I totally did not get how useful narration, summary, dictation, and copywork would be for my ds. Well, last year at a private school, he was very much able to write 3 paragraph book reports and other essays just on his experiences with SWB's methods. I was surprised. I am also gathering (but could be wrong:tongue_smilie:) that WWE and WWS go hand in hand and lead to great writers. I guess what I am saying is that perhaps early paragraph writing instruction is not really that necessary when using SWB's methods. Hopefully that makes sense:)

[Beth in SW WA]

I am just making my pitch for SWB's methods;). I totally did not get how useful narration, summary, dictation, and copywork would be for my ds. Well, last year at a private school, he was very much able to write 3 paragraph book reports and other essays just on his experiences with SWB's methods. I was surprised. I am also gathering (but could be wrong:tongue_smilie:) that WWE and WWS go hand in hand and lead to great writers. I guess what I am saying is that perhaps early paragraph writing instruction is not really that necessary when using SWB's methods. Hopefully that makes sense:)

 

Thank you for clarifying. I think SWB's methods work well in tandem with more structured paragraph-writing methods. At least for my offspring. :)

[HiddenJewel]

Thank you for clarifying. I think SWB's methods work well in tandem with more structured paragraph-writing methods. At least for my offspring. :)

 

I think there are two camps - one where structured writing is taught very early on and one where longer is taken teaching the foundational elements for future structured writing. Just like early grammar works for some students and not others, early structured writing may work for some and not others.

[Beth in SW WA]

I think there are two camps - one where structured writing is taught very early on and one where longer is taken teaching the foundational elements for future structured writing. Just like early grammar works for some students and not others, early structured writing may work for some and not others.

 

:iagree:

Dd8 has no shortage for words so we do paragraph-writing along w/ SWB's methods. We do extremely well with variety here -- in all subjects. I use multiple language arts (& math) programs/methods/publishers at one time. For writing with dd8, I am using WWW4 (which is basically IEW 'light'), WWE3 (finishing up), Paragraph Town (gently), journal-writing along with Kilgallon very sporadically. My focus for grade 3 is to get dd8 solid on paragraph writing. She thinks writing is a blast so that makes my job easier. We will not use WWE4 but will use WWS when the time is right. The samples look spectacular.

[DB in NJ]

Our first week of Classical Conversations Challenge A is not going well. Had I known that IEW was pervasive across the curriculum and not just in the writing class, I doubt I would have enrolled my child. I figured, one writing class, one semester -- suck it up and get through the 15 weeks. But it's in the science, too. Her lovely little three paragraph essay on algae -- not acceptable because it is not in IEW format. Her paragraph on Noah is all stilted and weird because she HAD to include that who clause and that 'ly word. :glare:

 

You're kidding me. 30 weeks of this? I'm gonna die.

 

well that's just dumb. Honestly, my problem here wouldn't be with IEW, but with the teacher who's taking a child whose writing is BEYOND the fundamentals of beginning IEW and forcing them to go backwards, so to speak.

 

If your daughter wrote 3 lovely paragraphs on algae, then the teacher needs to acknowledge that and move on. The *purpose* of those little tools in the toolbox (who clauses and -ly words) is to make a child's writing more varied and interesting. Your dd has obviously already accomplished this.

 

Talk to the teacher. She's sticking to the letter of the law while ignoring the spirit of the law.

[Spy Car]

But this thread has gone well beyond it by attacking the person promoting it. I will draw the line there. Personal attacks are not needed and prove nothing.

 

 

With due respect Jim, when home school authors presume to actively mix their "worldview" into their academic programs, as Andrew Pudewa does, it becomes the responsibility of parents to look into the questions of character of these authors.

 

Bill

[LND1218]

Wow, great responses and food for thought.

 

As I was venting a frustration and opinion, I appreciate that the comments and responses did not attempt to change my opinion, but either gave sympathy and agreement (because I really did wonder if I was the ONLY person who didn't like this program, and I thought maybe I was really a HORRIBLE writer, despite my college prof's encouragements!) OR gave some sympathy and suggestions -- that maybe I will like it better in a while, or maybe I could talk to the tutor, etc.

 

Just to clarify (should others desire to chime in with some advice!), this particular level of our program is using Bible Based Writing Lessons. I have NOT looked ahead in the book, and I am going to do so this afternoon. Someone mentioned that it moves beyond simple keyword outlines. Perhaps I will find that it grows on me. We entered Challenge A (roughly 7th grade, for those not familiar with Classical Conversations) without the benefit of ANY previous IEW work, which was a known disadvantage going in to the program (I had good intentions of at least watching the DVDs over the summer, but alas, the road . . . anyway). So, I was aware of the IEW Bible Based Writing for the first semester. I did not realize that the IEW *approach* was utilized in the science curriculum. I am willing to give it a fair shot, especially since I know my older daughter NEVER learned to summarize until her IEW experience. I just think it's a shame, first of all, that it was never mentioned to me (although, really, CC does promote IEW so much, I should have assumed) and that my dd had to discard a perfectly lovely little essay because it wasn't done with a key word outline. (I did send an email to her tutor to ask if she could use it this week, and if we could get a better explanation of what is expected.)

 

As to the comment that IEW is used in the upper levels -- I must be missing something major. I have a daughter in Challenge III, and she does not have to use ANY IEW materials OR write any papers in the IEW format. The instructions that she is given in her guide as to how to write her essays, etc, are what I would consider very traditional, MLA format writing (the way I was taught). I am prepping to tutor Challenge II next year, and there is NO mention of IEW anywhere in my materials that I can find. I don't recall seeing anything in Challenge B, either. So, I'm rather hoping that if we can muddle through this year (and perhaps strike a compromise with our tutor for Challenge A) we will be able to move on. If I look more closely and discover that IEW is, in fact, an integral part of the entire Challenge program? We'll be moving on to something else.

 

Umm, I am not sure I understand the bold part. You are your child's teacher. If you choose to not have her use the IEW format for science, that's up to you... If the paper is okay with you, it is okay with the tutor. You just need to tell her that. That's the way CC is designed. A tutor telling her her paper needs to be redone is overstepping her role as tutor.

 

One issue may be the presentation.... They do prefer the kids present using a key word outline instead of reading the paper. It's a better skill - presenting with just an outline. If that's the case, simply have her key word outline her paper after it's written.

 

As my dd moved away from needing to KWO, I just had her KWO her paper and tack on a few dress ups. You stop following those when they are writing a better paper without them - according to Andrew himself!

 

Just tell the tutor how you feel.

 

With the Bible based writing, it's tough to do without using IEW.... But I really dislike that book. It is my least favorite IEW resource.

 

IEW does go all through Challenge, but Challenge A is the only level it's emphasized like that. You don't notice it's IEW unless you are looking for it.

 

I second the person who said IEW isn't for natural writers. But not all our kids are natural writers. It's a great program. But for someone who writing comes intuitively to this seems so crazy!

[Caitilin]

You can put me in that camp. I've never used IEW, and I won't because of my strong opinions about it. That doesn't mean that I don't know anything about it or how it works. I've listened to him talk several times. I've looked over the materials every year at the homeschool convention. Several families in our homeschool group use and like IEW. I keep looking at it because it is a great program for some families, but every time I actually see and review the materials just reinforces why it's a poor fit for me.

 

:iagree:Precisely, and in every particular. Couldn't pay me enough.:lol:

[Joy at Home]

With due respect Jim, when home school authors presume to actively mix their "worldview" into their academic programs, as Andrew Pudewa does, it becomes the responsibility of parents to look into the questions of character of these authors.

 

Bill

 

Bill, I don't understand this. Every author has a worldview and some (horror!) inject that worldview into their curriculum. Parents will decide if that is compatible with their needs.

 

My guess is not that he includes (very sparsely, I might add) comments on worldview in a fraction of his material, but that it is a worldview in conflict with your own that is the problem. Every author has opinions and they will, to some extent, come through in their writing. Attack Pudewa if you will, but please don't preach about the "responsibility" of parents to "look into questions of character". To use your word, that's chutzpah.

 

Lisa

[Spy Car]

Bill, I don't understand this. Every author has a worldview and some (horror!) inject that worldview into their curriculum. Parents will decide if that is compatible with their needs.

 

My guess is not that he includes (very sparsely, I might add) comments on worldview in a fraction of his material, but that it is a worldview in conflict with your own that is the problem. Every author has opinions and they will, to some extent, come through in their writing. Attack Pudewa if you will, but please don't preach about the "responsibility" of parents to "look into questions of character". To use your word, that's chutzpah.

 

Lisa

 

When a man refers to the Civil War as the "War of Northern Aggression" it raises serious doubts in my mind.

 

When a man promotes (and is cross promoted by) a con-man like Oliver DeMille of the so-called "Thomas Jefferson Education" program it raises serious doubts in my mind.

 

When a man's academic credentials (beyond some boy in Alaska liking him) are a "certificate" from an "Institute" that engages in quack medicine, that raises serious doubts in my mind.

 

When a man calls his homeschool business an "Institute" and claims to be its "Director" it raises serious doubts in my mind.

 

Bill

[Beth in SW WA]

With due respect Jim, when home school authors presume to actively mix their "worldview" into their academic programs, as Andrew Pudewa does, it becomes the responsibility of parents to look into the questions of character of these authors.

 

Bill

 

Have I become judge AND jury now, Bill? That's above my pay-grade. Not to mention, I'm too busy educating my children and co-raising a family of 6 (and potty-training a puppy!) to conduct background character checks of my beloved textbook publishers.

 

Are you collecting donations for your background investigation of MCT? And SWB? You're safe with the Singapore publishers, I assume. Not too much brainwashing in the challenging word problems.

[Jim]

Bill,

 

If you disagree with him, his opinions, or his methods that's fair game. Not every program is for everyone. But if, in you opinion, AP is a unworthy and since you have reached that opinion it's a blanket opinion we should accept then you are not better. I'll have to investigate your background.

 

I'll talk to my boss, Director of Research, and ask him who annointed him as a director. And since I work for a company that is often referred to as an institute, but not by some organization of higher learning I guess that means I have no hope and am doomed.

 

As to the War of Northern Aggression I'll assume you've never spent time in the southern states. Down here in Georgia that's how it's refered to each and every day. Yeap, they still discuss it like it was yesterday. And out my office window there is a statue of a southern soldier facing north to protect us from those "aggressors." You just put down a few million people down here in the south. That's not very nice.

 

I've just knocked down most of your examples. I won't commenbt on the Oliver DeMille part because I'm not overly familiar with his products. I do have a cd of his that I enjoy listening to but I'm not familiar with any "hard" products of his. I'll leave it to others, though their opinions would not sway me. If he sold a product and I read about it, tried it, and it helped my child than I would say this product works for us. That does not mean it will work for someone else. I would not slander him becausse I might disagree with him on some points.

[Jim]

Are you collecting donations for your background investigation of MCT? And SWB? You're safe with the Singapore publishers, I assume. Not too much brainwashing in the challenging word problems.

 

According to some folks at a recent homeschool show I attended SWB is anti-christian. Now, I don't believe it. I hate to repeat these statements (sorry SWB). If it were true but her materials helped my child I would readily use them. I'm in this for his education. I'll take what works. No one else has too. But I don't see the point of slandering anyone because you disagree.

[...................]

I think that my distaste for IEW and utter confusion over the hype surrounding IEW, are caused by the fact that my children and I are all natural writers. We all write stories, poems, and even books For fun.

 

I'm happy that IEW exists, and I'm happy for those who use it and like it. But I've seen moms shrug and give funny looks to those who are not using IEW. And I can't find any writing classes or co-ops that do not revolve around IEW.

 

I'm glad I'm not alone in my lack of enthusiasm to use it with my children. For some reason it's always comforting not to be alone.

[johnandtinagilbert]

You misrepresent my objection, one which I made quite clearly.

 

My problem is not with Andrew Pudewa's lack of a degree (although his lack of higher education does raise concerns) it is with the claim that he is the "Director" of an "Institute." It clearly is not the case.

 

When people make these sorts of misrepresentations about themselves, and they also promote people like Oliver DeMille who has misrepresented his credentials (and who runs a diploma mill) it raises doubts in my mind as to issues of character.

 

Add all the worldview components that some may find refreshing (but I don't) and an education model that I find unappealing, and I'm left with little to like.

 

I'm more than a little surprised that people don't have a problem with the man's claim to be the Director of an Institute, when there is no such Institute. Does this inflation (understatement) of his job description sit well with you?

 

Bill

Hi, Bill. I hope you're well. It's been a long while.

Gotta say, on this one, I'm the Head Mistress of Gilbert Academy. Sounds fancy for a reason...more b/c I like it than for sales; but I get it. He's a home schooler. We like nice, academic sounding names, sometimes.

 

Honestly,

I have always just thought that Institute for Excellence in Writing is the name of his company and as director of the institute, Andrew is the president of his company. It honestly has never occurred to me that there might be or should be a brick and mortar institute or that Andrew has attempted to imply that there is one.

:iagree:

 

I see your objections and I think this is more about your worldview vs. his. Not so much about the writing program itself....which is the reason for the thread (no?).

 

Take care.

 

OP: Who cares what grade a CC tutor gives your dd? Really? Do you have to legally submit or something? Congratulate your daughter on a job well done and explain to her how it is when someone else teaches her: she has to meet their standards, and that might be a little different than what she's used to. Sounds like a great opportunity to s.t.r.e.t.c.h. her. I hope it works out well for you both.

[Joy at Home]

Tina, I wub you:001_wub:

 

 

 

Hi, Bill. I hope you're well. It's been a long while.

Gotta say, on this one, I'm the Head Mistress of Gilbert Academy. Sounds fancy for a reason...more b/c I like it than for sales; but I get it. He's a home schooler. We like nice, academic sounding names, sometimes.

 

Honestly,

:iagree:

 

I see your objections and I think this is more about your worldview vs. his. Not so much about the writing program itself....which is the reason for the thread (no?).

 

Take care.

 

OP: Who cares what grade a CC tutor gives your dd? Really? Do you have to legally submit or something? Congratulate your daughter on a job well done and explain to her how it is when someone else teaches her: she has to meet their standards, and that might be a little different than what she's used to. Sounds like a great opportunity to s.t.r.e.t.c.h. her. I hope it works out well for you both.

[hollyandab]

 

I see your objections and I think this is more about your worldview vs. his. Not so much about the writing program itself....which is the reason for the thread (no?).

 

Take care.

QUOTE]

:iagree:

Tina, every time I see one of your posts, you always manage to be polite while still making your point. You're my hero! I want to learn from you! :001_smile: I usually manage to offend someone while trying to agree with them! Ha!

[sewingmama]

If language means anything (and it would be ironic if he thought it didn't) one can't just call ones private small-business an "Institute" because one thinks it sounds prestigious (or something). [/Quote]

 

This made me smile a little considering the large number of "Something Something Homeschool ACADEMY's" I see on this board ;)

 

I agree with you - that is why we call ourselves Lastname Homeschool - I'm not ashamed that I am just a "homeschool" and not something more prestigious :tongue_smilie:

[newlifemom]

IEW ends with the first semester of Challenge A. After that, while the hope is that students will have expanded their style to include more interesting and complex sentences, and of course have a working knowledge of basic structures of writing, it is not used again.

 

To be sure, some parents and even tutors may utilize portions when explaining an assignment, but it is nowhere in the guides and not expected of the parents or students.

 

As for the KWO for science, [i am a Challenge A Director] yes, it is used for the paragraphs as is the fused outline. The reason being that most students are not confident on their own. I used it, expected it, and had some parents tell me they were not going to use it. That's cool. It's a tool. At no time are the kids expected to write IEW paragraphs for science. The opposite is actually the case.

 

OP, I hope this helps a little.

 

As for IEW, I do like it, a lot. However, I had students, who really had no need for the style portion and it was tough for them, but it did not kill them. ;) I am so-so with TJ Ed. Haven't been able to get into it. Won't throw him or Pudewa under the bus though, I am yet another person with only a history degree [who doesn't even know that much history] teaching 5 students. Technically, I don't have any credentials either. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

I do try though. :D

 

 

And Bill, I love your passion! :D

[johnandtinagilbert]

 

I see your objections and I think this is more about your worldview vs. his. Not so much about the writing program itself....which is the reason for the thread (no?).

 

Take care.

QUOTE]

 

Tina, every time I see one of your posts, you always manage to be polite while still making your point. You're my hero! I want to learn from you! :001_smile: I usually manage to offend someone while trying to agree with them! Ha!

You're too kind. I offend often enough, for sure :) I suppose I do make a little effort since we're online. IRL, I'm a little more brash but people know it's my committed/seriousness that pushes kinda hard sometimes :)

 

This made me smile a little considering the large number of "Something Something Homeschool ACADEMY's" I see on this board

 

I agree with you - that is why we call ourselves Lastname Homeschool - I'm not ashamed that I am just a "homeschool" and not something more prestigious :tongue_smilie:

Head Mistress Gilbert here...:tongue_smilie: :lol::lol::lol: ashamed? Never. Proud to offer a prestigious classical education -- daily. It's not like any college will actually believe we were an academy anymore than Bill believes AP. (totally smiling and laughing out loud)

[BearWallowSchool]

OP: Who cares what grade a CC tutor gives your dd? Really? Do you have to legally submit or something? Congratulate your daughter on a job well done and explain to her how it is when someone else teaches her: she has to meet their standards, and that might be a little different than what she's used to. Sounds like a great opportunity to s.t.r.e.t.c.h. her. I hope it works out well for you both.

 

:iagree: Excellent advice!

[...................]

When I found out that there was no Institute involved with IEW, I was disappointed, then confused, and finally, a bit annoyed.

 

 

When you look up "institute" in the dictionary, it usually connotates an organization, a group of individuals promoting education, or an association of individuals...NOT a private company.

 

That wouldn't keep me from using it if I liked it though. I'm not a nitpicker.

 

Just sharing that, because it struck me as odd and (just a little) annoying too.

[FairProspects]

When I found out that there was no Institute involved with IEW, I was disappointed, then confused, and finally, a bit annoyed.

 

 

When you look up "institute" in the dictionary, it usually connotates an organization, a group of individuals promoting education, or an association of individuals...NOT a private company.

 

Just sharing that, because it struck me as odd and (just a little) annoying too.

 

:iagree:I thought it was a non-profit think tank, involved with peer-reviewed, published academic research, funded by grants to pursue their research. Now that I know it is just a name, I am annoyed and I do feel it is a misrepresentation of credentials.

[mystika1]

When I found out that there was no Institute involved with IEW, I was disappointed, then confused, and finally, a bit annoyed.

 

 

When you look up "institute" in the dictionary, it usually connotates an organization, a group of individuals promoting education, or an association of individuals...NOT a private company.

 

That wouldn't keep me from using it if I liked it though. I'm not a nitpicker.

 

Just sharing that, because it struck me as odd and (just a little) annoying too.

 

:iagree:I do like nice names for my homeschool but find IMO that to call my school an Institute or University a bit over the top and misleading. If I called my school the Institute of Advanced Academics I would feel the need to have some form of certification.(especially if I were selling curriculum) It says to me..."Let me call my school an institute so that I may charge more for my product." This product is too expensive for me so I would not buy it anyway....just saying....

 

The above may not bother anyone else and that is fine because we all have opinions. We just all use what works for our family and that is great.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

Penny

[edelweiss]

I am surprised that several people are bothered by the use of the word "institute". :confused: I always thought that it was a catchy name for the company and nothing else. I don't feel like it is a misrepresentation in any way. :confused:

 

We just started IEW so it is too soon to know if it will work well for us, but I like what I see so far. :001_smile: I honestly don't care what they call the company as long as the program works for us. ;)

[Penelope]

I think the "institute" name is a little odd, but whatever. I don't feel it's misrepresentation.

 

The firs homeschool institute I learned of when I began hsing was Writing Strands, which is published by some institute or other. The institute being an English teacher who is also a homeschool dad.

[Carol in Cal.]

It's hard to teach writing to a mixed group of homeschoolers at best. Using IEW makes it pretty easy because it is so formulaic. It also makes it somewhat less effective, for the same reason.

 

If I taught a writing coop, I would start with creativity exercises, descriptive exercises, dictated stories, progressive stories, outlining, analysis of newspaper articles, including outlining of their arguments or points, argumentation, study of essays via modern oratory (Winston Churchill, JFK, President Roosevelt, etc.), and THEN teach the writing of expository and persuasive essays. There would be concurrent work with vocabulary enrichment, and discussion of literary writing incorporating major literary elements. The students' work would be studied with a fine toothed comb, by the author, the teacher, and the peers. It would be revised repeatedly to a high level of polish. It would reflect and develop each student's unique writing voice.

 

Now, this would be a messy class to teach, it would be difficult to evaluate the students' work, and probably parents would be questioning my methods constantly. Probably some significant proportion of them would take their children out of the class halfway through, because they wouldn't be sure that their students were learning writing. But the students who stayed with it would be very good writers, or at least very capable ones, in about a year's time.

 

It is SO much easier to say that you're going to teach IEW, or Junior Great Books, or something like that, than to approach it the way I would want to do. And I would contend that that is the difference between teaching children, and teaching a curriculum.

 

Which leads me to my homeschooling mantra. Teach the children, not the curriculum--all the time, in many ways, at their own levels, to excellence. That is teaching true excellence in writing.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Carol in Cal.

[scrapbookbuzz]

I love IEW for those who struggle with writing or whose parents/teachers need a way to teach a student how to write.

 

I don't at all recommend it for those who are natural writers.

 

I am a natural writer, have written a mystery short story, several poems, including two that have been published, and am currently writing a novel, but that doesn't mean I know how to teach writing. IEW gave us a place to start.

 

Now, in the beginning, especially if you have not previewed the program in its entirety, I can see why you'd think it is glorified plagiarism. HOWEVER, that is just the beginning, to get them to think about how things are written. Later on in the program, students are weaned from tweaking something already written to writing their own essays, etc.

 

As for the teacher who refused to take a child's essay because it was not in IEW format well, unless the essay was for an IEW writing class, I think that was a little over the top! HTH!

 

(And, for what it's worth, I did a lot of searching to find something that would work with my Aspie kiddo. The number of recommendations and stories of success involving IEW was what made me finally buy it. i'm glad I did!)

[hollyandab]

It's hard to teach writing to a mixed group of homeschoolers at best. Using IEW makes it pretty easy because it is so formulaic. It also makes it somewhat less effective, for the same reason.

 

If I taught a writing coop, I would start with creativity exercises, descriptive exercises, dictated stories, progressive stories, outlining, analysis of newspaper articles, including outlining of their arguments or points, argumentation, study of essays via modern oratory (Winston Churchill, JFK, President Roosevelt, etc.), and THEN teach the writing of expository and persuasive essays. There would be concurrent work with vocabulary enrichment, and discussion of literary writing incorporating major literary elements. The students' work would be studied with a fine toothed comb, by the author, the teacher, and the peers. It would be revised repeatedly to a high level of polish. It would reflect and develop each student's unique writing voice.

 

Now, this would be a messy class to teach, it would be difficult to evaluate the students' work, and probably parents would be questioning my methods constantly. Probably some significant proportion of them would take their children out of the class halfway through, because they wouldn't be sure that their students were learning writing. But the students who stayed with it would be very good writers, or at least very capable ones, in about a year's time.

 

It is SO much easier to say that you're going to teach IEW, or Junior Great Books, or something like that, than to approach it the way I would want to do. And I would contend that that is the difference between teaching children, and teaching a curriculum.

 

Which leads me to my homeschooling mantra. Teach the children, not the curriculum--all the time, in many ways, at their own levels, to excellence. That is teaching true excellence in writing.

Sooooo, can you come teach my dc? Oh, and me too?! :001_smile: Sounds good!

[Chez J]

Interesting. I am starting IEW with my DD7 this year and I love it so far. However, we are only working on rewriting using key words and I feel this is such a necessary skill that does not come natural to most kids. I actually feel that it AVOIDS plagiarism since kids would tend to copy word for word from a source if they had never been taught outlining or summarizing. Someone above said that for a natural writer IEW may be frustrating and I see how that could be true. However, my daughter has no experience with writing and I have found IEW an excellent place for her to start. As always, though, different things work for different people and not everyone will love the same writing program.:)

 

I agree about the keyword outline. I think it teaches note taking from a text. And, it teaches how to paraphrase to eliminate outright copying of a text. It is okay to paraphrase a reference and give it footnotes in a bibliography.

 

I love the verbal retelling of the piece from the outline to help a student learn to give a speech from an outline.

 

I also love the dress-ups for getting students to vary their sentence types.

[shanvan]

I agree about the keyword outline. I think it teaches note taking from a text. And, it teaches how to paraphrase to eliminate outright copying of a text. It is okay to paraphrase a reference and give it footnotes in a bibliography.

 

I love the verbal retelling of the piece from the outline to help a student learn to give a speech from an outline.

 

I also love the dress-ups for getting students to vary their sentence types.

 

Yes, :iagree:this process can also help with reading comprehension, which is one of the reasons I use it with Dd.

[Christy B]

Wow, lots more great comments!

 

I just want to clarify: at no point did our Classical Conversations director demand or insist that we use the IEW methodology for the science writing. I am of the opinion that if you sign up for a program, you follow the directions of the program -- or you at least give it your very best effort for a reasonable period of time before you politely ask to deviate from the plan. My child's director has actually said to me twice in the last two weeks, "Relax. Don't make this harder than it is." :)

[Hedgehogs4]

nm

[NCMom]

But it's in the science, too. Her lovely little three paragraph essay on algae -- not acceptable because it is not in IEW format. .

 

 

I just want to clarify: at no point did our Classical Conversations director demand or insist that we use the IEW methodology for the science writing. I am of the opinion that if you sign up for a program, you follow the directions of the program -- or you at least give it your very best effort for a reasonable period of time before you politely ask to deviate from the plan.

 

This seems to contradict what you previously said??

 

I must be missing something in all the IEW hoopla, but I will reiterate what others have said; the science report is not required to be in an IEW format.

 

This is not in the Guide and to my knowledge, as a former CCer and very good friend of a Ch A tutor, has never been required. The science book that they make is NOT even typically "graded", much less sent back for revision?? The tutor may make some changes to the Guide for their individual class, but I would never allow my child's good writing to be changed especially if the expectations were not made clear upfront, with a rubric of some sort provided.

 

Plus the science part this term is the BEST part of Ch A. Seriously, I would not worry about IEW formatting for this part.

 

As for the Bible Based lessons - worst IEW product ever, imho, even if you like IEW. I'm ambivalent, myself. Good news, it's over quickly, lol.

 

hth,

Georgia