Jump to content

Menu

Warning, vent ahead: I. Hate. IEW.


Recommended Posts

There, I said it.

 

Everyone I know loves it and thinks it's the greatest invention since the graphite pencil or the word processor, but I hate it.

 

For starters, HOW is this not just a great way to teach kids a method of glorified plagiarism?

 

It's like stealing blank paper, sketch pencils, charcoal, pastels, and watercolor from an artist, and giving them cheap magic markers and color by number pages.

 

Our first week of Classical Conversations Challenge A is not going well. Had I known that IEW was pervasive across the curriculum and not just in the writing class, I doubt I would have enrolled my child. I figured, one writing class, one semester -- suck it up and get through the 15 weeks. But it's in the science, too. Her lovely little three paragraph essay on algae -- not acceptable because it is not in IEW format. Her paragraph on Noah is all stilted and weird because she HAD to include that who clause and that 'ly word. :glare:

 

You're kidding me. 30 weeks of this? I'm gonna die.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 111
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

I am a natural writer, have written a mystery short story, several poems, including two that have been published, and am currently writing a novel, but that doesn't mean I know how to teach writing. I

I know a bit about Classical Conversations but what is IEW? I'm sure most people who have been doing this a bit longer are in the know...

I'd love to hear your thoughts... I have a friend who just enrolled her 5 year old in CC and starts next week.

Link to post
Share on other sites

DS11 starts an IEW class next week. Everyone who takes it (moms, not kids) raves about it. I like the idea of introducing various tools to strengthen and vary one's writing, and I don't consider rewrites "plagiarism," but I also believe that each person has a "voice" for their writing, and some programs can be too...formulaic. DS is rather creative - we'll see how this goes.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have looked at IEW before and not understood the popularity.

 

We tried Writing Tales a couple of years ago, and ds hated it for the same reasons... it is a form of plagiarism in that all you do is rewrite something that's already written. No real room for creativity, expansion, and so forth. I think I would dislike Imitations in Writing, Classical Writing, etc.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Give it some time. My understanding of IEW is that, yes, it is systematic but by the end the idea is that he student will have a number of tools available to them and, with experience, can pick and chose which tools that would best complete the work at hand.

 

We started with SWI-A last year and, yes, we spent considerable time re-writing the work of others. Starting with a source paragraph we outlined it, tested the outline, and than rewrote the piece is his own words. Of course, the result mimiced the original piece. We did change charachters or other details at times but the idea was that we could forgo the need to decide on the topic and could, instead, focus on writing tools.

 

Ds did well with it while his ps friends, who wer send home with no topic and told to write a paragraph didn't know where to start but did start crying about writing. The IEW method made it easy for ds.

 

We're starting CC Essentials next week and will be using their U.S. History \themed book. We'll see how it goes.

 

Hoping for the best and hoping your experience improves.

 

Jim

Link to post
Share on other sites
I love IEW for those who struggle with writing or whose parents/teachers need a way to teach a student how to write.

 

I don't at all recommend it for those who are natural writers.

 

Ah, that makes sense, then. My older dd, a struggling writer, enjoyed IEW. My younger, however, is definitely what I would consider a natural writer.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting. I am starting IEW with my DD7 this year and I love it so far. However, we are only working on rewriting using key words and I feel this is such a necessary skill that does not come natural to most kids. I actually feel that it AVOIDS plagiarism since kids would tend to copy word for word from a source if they had never been taught outlining or summarizing. Someone above said that for a natural writer IEW may be frustrating and I see how that could be true. However, my daughter has no experience with writing and I have found IEW an excellent place for her to start. As always, though, different things work for different people and not everyone will love the same writing program.:)

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think IEW is a great way to get started,

but,

it WAY overdoes all the add-ons.

 

When we do an IEW assignment, I teach or review the concept and require that one concept be in the paper several times. I'll require most concepts be somewhere in the assignment.

 

I, too, HATE to follow it so precisely that it kills creativity and the natural flow of the voice of the student.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

We tried Writing Tales a couple of years ago, and ds hated it for the same reasons... it is a form of plagiarism in that all you do is rewrite something that's already written. No real room for creativity, expansion, and so forth. I think I would dislike Imitations in Writing, Classical Writing, etc.

 

I can understand not wanting an imitative program.

 

But I want to defend CW and Writing Tales a little, at least as compared to IEW. CW Aesop and WT are more like narrations, with further writing skills taught through the revisions. IEW is much more formulaic and the first couple of units involve rewriting a sentence around the exact words with exactly the same number of sentences as the original. The classically-based programs tend not to do that.

 

I didn't care for what I saw of IEW, either. But some people love it and tweak it to make it their own. I can see how it would be great for the kid that is absolutely paralyzed by the idea of writing. It gives them a scaffold. And I think some moms like it because it means that writing actually gets DONE.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The classical school my boys used to attend uses IEW. I HATED it with a passion. I was so happy to dump it for WWE when we started to homeschool. I'll be happy to never see another 3 point paragraph in my life. I do know some kids who've used it there from 1st - 12th, and they're excellent (pun intended) writers of original compositions. I think if you see the program through to the end, it delivers the goods....making it out of the grammar stage is the hard part.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I have looked at IEW before and not understood the popularity.

 

We tried Writing Tales a couple of years ago, and ds hated it for the same reasons... it is a form of plagiarism in that all you do is rewrite something that's already written. No real room for creativity, expansion, and so forth. I think I would dislike Imitations in Writing, Classical Writing, etc.

 

I think calling it plagiarism is way over the top.

 

It's like showing someone how to fry an egg and then asking them to do as you did so they can practice the steps and see how it comes together. Yes, it may not be as open ended as more modern creative writing assignments but then it's focus is different, on the technical skills rather then the creative.

 

I think it's generally what kids do naturally anyway. Most of the "creative" play and writing of children is extremely derivative. I know when my siblings and I didn't play "space opera" with completely original character. We stole wholesale from Star Wars. My kids have done the same. They do that and learn about plot, story arcs, moments of tension, etc. All the technical bits of play and storytelling. The "creative" stuff generally comes later.

 

I know that when I tried a creative writing approach with my daughter she floundered. It was too open ended and she didn't have a good sense of how to structure a bit of writing to begin with. No foundation to build her house on. Writing Tales was what started to give her that.

 

None of this is to say imitation writing programs work for all kids but rather that they have a place and a good, solid reason for approaching writing in the way that they do. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work. If you hate it, no big deal but it is not a form of plagiarism.

 

ETA: Never used IEW. My objection is money. I'm far too cheap for it when there are other excellent and much cheaper classical writing programs out there.

Link to post
Share on other sites
However, we are only working on rewriting using key words and I feel this is such a necessary skill that does not come natural to most kids.

 

:iagree:

 

My DH teaches year 10,11,12 English. Keep in mind that he teaches in a higly acclaimed private school as well.

 

I read his students work from time to time to suss out what the standard is - sadly there doesn't seem to be one. :confused:

 

He gives quite a few assignements where the students basically just have to summarise the key points of a written piece or a movie - barely any of them can do it correctly. It is so hard to read paper after paper where the kids have just copied everything word for word. They have no idea what a key point is or a topic sentance or even how to form a proper paragraph - most of them struggle to complete 3 paragraphs of anything.

 

I agree if you have a naturally creative writer who wants to make it a career then formulaic writing is probably not for them - but for a regular kid who will only be using writing as a tool to get through school and University assignments - it is a great help.

Link to post
Share on other sites

With regard to plagerism and formulaic writing--these are actually addressed in the FAQ on the IEW site, you might read about them there. I resisted using IEW for years because it's the opposite of how I write and how I would think to teach writing. Now I have a son who needs the opposite of how I teach, LOL! We've only just started using IEW. The Key Word Outlines immediately made sense to him--and in fact, I felt he improved on the original writing by adding in a connecting thought that wasn't there in the original. I was so concerned that this method would teach him formulaic writing (but as one post in the FAQ section said--for some kids formulaic writing is preferable to what they previously did--that post set me free because yes, I decided it was preferable here!). But...I think for my son this might actually set him free and produce the type of writing I was hoping for but couldn't get him to produce before. It's too early yet to know, but I am pleasantly surprised in these first few weeks.

 

Not sure IEW would ever work for my dd though! She resists structure like I do! But...we'll see, I may be sold even for our "type" yet, LOL!

 

As for plagerism/immitative writing--that's how Ben. Franklin learned. That's how all of the great artists used to learn to paint through apprenticeships for years, before going off on their own. It's interesting to think about.

 

Merry :-)

Link to post
Share on other sites
Try reading Andrew's article on plagiarism:

http://www.excellenceinwriting.com/article-list

 

It might help you grit your teeth for the next 30 weeks. :)

 

I love (don't) the way this guy drops in an "example" of a thesis that Lincoln fought the Civil War for economic purposes and not to free the slaves.

 

I can't stand his methods, and he gives me the creeps.

 

Bill

Link to post
Share on other sites
Try reading Andrew's article on plagiarism:

http://www.excellenceinwriting.com/article-list

 

It might help you grit your teeth for the next 30 weeks. :)

 

Thank you for trying. :tongue_smilie:

 

I was actually excited when I saw your link . . . and disappointed when I read the article. But really, I was sincere in asking "how is this not plagiarism" and I appreciate your sincerity in posting the link.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I love (don't) the way this guy drops in an "example" of a thesis that Lincoln fought the Civil War for economic purposes and not to free the slaves.

 

I can't stand his methods, and he gives me the creeps.

 

Bill

 

Yeah, and using the possibility of explosives detonated in the World Trade Center as an example of something that goes against commonly held belief or general knowledge . . . just a weird choice, IMO.

 

Sigh.

 

I might as well face it, I just don't like coloring in someone else's lines. I'm a hopeless non-conformist who should have KNOWN better than to sign up for a curriculum program.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I started using IEW for my son who struggles with writing. It has been a fantastic fit for him. My DD is a natural writer, so I was concerned what IEW would do to her "voice". However, I've found that even after several years of IEW, her voice still comes through, loud and strong.

 

I understand that IEW is not for everyone, but it's been a great fit for us.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I did not fully read all the comments so I apologize if this has already been said.

 

First, to your question about plagiarism. Only Units I and II are rewriting from a source. After lesson 5 there is no more of that. Unit I and II are for beginning writers, to teach them the stylistic techniques without them having to think up what to write about. Fortunately for you the Bible-based writing is only for the first semester.

 

Second, You are still your child's teacher. I'd have a talk with your tutor and let her know that you are not requiring your child to follow IEW format for her science paper.

 

I have a child just starting in Challenge A as well. I have no idea what will be expected for the lit papers in the second semester. But again - just let the tutor know what you are requiring. If she knows that your daughter is not using IEW for them then she won't correct her when her papers deviate from it. Just remember - you are the teacher.

 

Have you watched any of the writing DVD's? If not, that might help to understand the philosophy and where the tutor is coming from.

 

(3 paragraphs? Now I am worried about what my son is going to come up with . . .)

Link to post
Share on other sites
I do see where the structure side of IEW could be very helpful. I would use something else for style.

 

Yes, the nice thing is they can be used exclusive of each other. I've used parts of IEW over the years (never was really able to stick to it completely as written), but I do think it does a good job coming up with a framework for more advanced writing. I never did require my kids to use all those stylistic techniques together, though.

 

Lisa

Link to post
Share on other sites
But both programs move beyond imitation to original writing.

 

Lisa

 

:iagree: Imitation has been used for hundreds of years as a method of learning the structure and mechanics of writing. Benjamin Franklin used it and it's present in many vintage textbooks. That said, I don't like IEW either! We are in CC, but doing Foundations only. I don't know what I'll do when my dd gets to Challenge since I detest both IEW and Saxon! I have owned both, and they just don't work for us.

Edited by LizzyBee
Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not familiar with this curriculum personally but...

 

I don't see anything wrong with imitating writing as practice. Similar to art where it is very common to reproduce existing art as a form of practice in order to study style, content, and other art fundamentals.

 

It is not plagiarism until you present it to someone else as your own original work.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have never liked IEW. Reasons upon reasons upon reasons.

 

Cost, format, dullness, suggested content, everything posted here, both positives and negatives. It just seems like such a huge apparatus. I get leery of giant programs that cost $$$$$$, require too much of my time to understand the program's process, and have too much text.

 

I like succinct, visually stimulating stuff.

 

Due to all of that, I can't even delve into content.

 

I always look at it, and then I say "GAH!" and run away.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there are many programs that use original works to imitate just to demonstrate good writing. I mean isn't a report kind of the rewriting of what the sources had to say in your own words? I think it teaches kids to NOT say things exactly like the author by rephrasing. For my kids I think it will work well with DD (11) to help her get some kind of structure since she has no clue where to start. For younger DD (7) I doubt it will be needed since she loves to write already. She just needs to organize and polish.

I think like many things some like and some don't. Sadly CC cost a substantial amount to learn that you HAVE to use IEW. :grouphug:

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm so-so on IEW. I strongly dislike the association with TJEd in particular. And the politics. I find the theme courses to be unusable because of the ideas expressed (like "false" being an appropriate adjective for the gods of an ancient religion). I am also a big fan of early and explicit grammar instruction while IEW recommends late and/or inferred grammar (editing mistakes).

 

However, I do find the structured way of teaching writing to be helpful. It was too structured for my creative, natural writer, but it is a good fit for my math-and-science dd9. Because the program can be easily customized, I don't hate it. I treat the stylistic portions as exercises to be practiced and then used more organically once their use is mastered. Rewriting content as a writing exercise is not plagiarism. It's a learning tool.

 

There are probably other programs that would work for dd9, but I have and am familiar with IEW do that's what I use. Dd11 is doing SWB-style outlines and rewrites. Outlining isn't plagiarism, either. Dd11 reads something, writes down facts (in her own words) that she may choose include in her final report, organized the facts, and then turns those facts into paragraphs. She actually hates expository writing and would much rather just write creatively (future English major, I think ;)). I make her write non-fiction, though. She tolerates literary essays the best. :tongue_smilie:

Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it amusing that folks who have never used a program have such strong negative opinions about said program -- and/or the author.

 

To those unfamiliar (and somewhat intwrested) in Andrew Pudewa or IEW: do your own homework and borrow a video or 2 from a friend.

 

We skipped the KWO/rewriting section because it wasn't necessary to get my dd going on her sentences/paragraphs. To critics of 'imitating' good writers, do a quick google search on the progymnasmata.

Or read this:

http://rhetoric.byu.edu/pedagogy/Imitation.htm

 

We use some IEW structure and style along with my own methods. Dd8 LOVES Mr. Pudewa. We have watched all the SWI-A videos. I love elements of CW also. This year I have added the WWW4 workbooks to teach dd8 paragraph writing in addition to Unit IV of IEW. We are reading PT together.

 

To the OP, good luck in your endeavor.

Edited by Beth in SW WA
I deleted misstatement regarding CC upper levels. My bad. :)
Link to post
Share on other sites
I find it amusing that folks who have never used a program have such strong negative opinions about said program -- and/or the author.

 

You can put me in that camp. I've never used IEW, and I won't because of my strong opinions about it. That doesn't mean that I don't know anything about it or how it works. I've listened to him talk several times. I've looked over the materials every year at the homeschool convention. Several families in our homeschool group use and like IEW. I keep looking at it because it is a great program for some families, but every time I actually see and review the materials just reinforces why it's a poor fit for me.

Edited by Kuovonne
Link to post
Share on other sites
I can understand not wanting an imitative program.

 

But I want to defend CW and Writing Tales a little, at least as compared to IEW. CW Aesop and WT are more like narrations, with further writing skills taught through the revisions. IEW is much more formulaic and the first couple of units involve rewriting a sentence around the exact words with exactly the same number of sentences as the original. The classically-based programs tend not to do that.

 

I didn't care for what I saw of IEW, either. But some people love it and tweak it to make it their own. I can see how it would be great for the kid that is absolutely paralyzed by the idea of writing. It gives them a scaffold. And I think some moms like it because it means that writing actually gets DONE.

 

:iagree:

 

Writing Tales does give the child an opportunity to put their own creative spin on a story.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I find it amusing that folks who have never used a program have such strong negative opinions about said program -- and/or the author.

 

To those unfamiliar (and somewhat intwrested) in Andrew Pudewa or IEW: do your own homework and borrow a video or 2 from a friend.

 

 

I agree that people should do their homework.

 

What people will discover is Andrew Pudewa has no academic credentials, yet he calls himself the "Director" of an "Institute." There is no "Institute" associated with IEW and claiming otherwise is a serious misrepresentation of the facts.

 

Pudewa also cross-promotes Oliver DeMille and his so-called "Thomas Jefferson Education." De Mille is a con-man who has claimed to have advanced degrees from sham diploma-mills, and he has set up his own sham "University" that is a diploma-mill itself. TJE has done incredible damage in the home education community by promising things it does not deliver (but boy do they succeed in extracting money from parents).

 

Yet Pudewa promotes TJE (and DeMille) and they promote Pudewa.

 

Lacking any academic bone fides Pudewa claims his "best endorsement is from a young Alaskan boy who called him the funny man with the wonderful words." Seriously?

 

He also claims to "Certificate of Child Brain Development" from The Institutes for the Achievement of Human Potential in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. A little research reveals these "Institutes" (because abusing the definition of Institute in the singular wasn't bad enough that they needed to go for the plural) promotes crazy pseudo-science treatments for brain damaged children. Leading Medical Organizations (ones where people actually have medical degrees) say the methods in IAHP are not scientific, not effective, not evidence based, and involve "bankrupt and discarded theory and has failed when tested under controlled conditions."

 

I can see what "the boy who likes the funny man with the wonderful words" is the top "credential" in his resume.

 

Then we have the fact that Pudewa freely mixes in extreme right-wing politics and theology into all his writing and materials. And there is his disturbing practice of referring to the Civil War as the "War of Northern Aggression."

 

You start adding those elements up (not to mention the questionable methods promoted in his program) and I, for one, feel strong negative reactions brewing.

 

I hope you understand why.

 

Bill

Edited by Spy Car
Link to post
Share on other sites

I am a professional writer and book author.

 

Imitation is an excellent way to introduce a skill and hone it. In learning art, imitation helps students get form and symmetry down. After they learn the fundamentals, they can find their personal artisitc 'voice', often more easily because they have a framework in which to work and this actually provides freedom. :) In learning handwriting or spelling, copying words down aids the educational process and helps the brain retain information. The same is true of writing.

 

I am a recent user of IEW and like the format for the grades for which I have used it-- 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th. I supplement with my own material (5 paragraph essay format for expository writing, creative writing assignments of my own design for that, writing real letters to the editor for practice in persuasion, etc. ) I don't think it's fair to call IEW 'plagiarism' because, well, it isn't. :)

 

If someone has a problem with the worldview of any instructor , then he should not choose that instructor to educate his children. I wouldn't choose any program which made me uncomfortable. I happen to find the worldview/framework that IEW provides quite refreshing.

 

I find IEW a solid program that produces excellent results, for what it purports to do. It cannot make your child a Pulizter prize author- your child has to have the drive, talent, skill, motivation, etc.. Different children learn best with different methods- I get that. But IEW can work great- but it's not the only program out there. If you don't like it and can't find something better, I suggest creating a program that works with your kids. I took what I liked about IEW and am cobbling together other things (as mentioned above).

 

I don't need government endorsed 'credentials' from Andrew Pudewa or any other instructor. I need results. His program has provided that for my children and that's all that matters to me.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't need government endorsed 'credentials' from Andrew Pudewa or any other instructor. I need results. His program has provided that for my children and that's all that matters to me.

 

 

:iagree:

 

If i was relying on gov. endorsed credentials my ds would be in ps. He isn't. Why? We found the instructors lacking for even an elementary level instructor despite their masters degrees.

 

It works for us so we use it.

 

If I tossed out all the material written by folks I might disagree with on some subject I doubt there would be much left for me to choose from. That's after I spent a decade doing all the research on each author.

 

 

 

Jim

Link to post
Share on other sites

If i was relying on gov. endorsed credentials my ds would be in ps. He isn't.

 

Then I don't know why you so harshly critique the Institutes for which Pudewa is associated with. Every institution had roots and beginnings. That his are not endorsed by a particular educational committee or the government doesn't in any way indicate his offerings are less valuable. That's all I was trying to point out.

 

I'm glad you found what works for you and your children. I hope the original post-er finds (or creates :)) what works best for hers. :)

 

I think the best advice to the original post-er is 'if you don't like it, don't use it'! That is something I bet everyone here can agree with.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I am a professional writer and book author.

 

Imitation is an excellent way to introduce a skill and hone it. In learning art, imitation helps students get form and symmetry down. After they learn the fundamentals, they can find their personal artisitc 'voice', often more easily because they have a framework in which to work and this actually provides freedom. :) In learning handwriting or spelling, copying words down aids the educational process and helps the brain retain information. The same is true of writing.

 

I am a recent user of IEW and like the format for the grades for which I have used it-- 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th. I supplement with my own material (5 paragraph essay format for expository writing, creative writing assignments of my own design for that, writing real letters to the editor for practice in persuasion, etc. ) I don't think it's fair to call IEW 'plagiarism' because, well, it isn't. :)

 

If someone has a problem with the worldview of any instructor , then he should not choose that instructor to educate his children. I wouldn't choose any program which made me uncomfortable. I happen to find the worldview/framework that IEW provides quite refreshing.

 

I find IEW a solid program that produces excellent results, for what it purports to do. It cannot make your child a Pulizter prize author- your child has to have the drive, talent, skill, motivation, etc.. Different children learn best with different methods- I get that. But IEW can work great- but it's not the only program out there. If you don't like it and can't find something better, I suggest creating a program that works with your kids. I took what I liked about IEW and am cobbling together other things (as mentioned above).

 

I don't need government endorsed 'credentials' from Andrew Pudewa or any other instructor. I need results. His program has provided that for my children and that's all that matters to me.

 

Nicely stated! :iagree:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Academic credentials are earned at institutions of higher learning. They are not endorsed by some monolithic "Government."

 

To claim to the "Director" of an "Institute" when no institution of higher learning has awarded one a legitimate academic degree strikes me as fraud. Not at all honest.

 

If he simply presented himself as an "autodidact" that would be one thing. But to claim to be the Director of an Institute? What chutzpah!

 

Bill

Link to post
Share on other sites
If i was relying on gov. endorsed credentials my ds would be in ps. He isn't.

 

Then I don't know why you so harshly critique the Institutes for which Pudewa is associated with. Every institution had roots and beginnings. That his are not endorsed by a particular educational committee or the government doesn't in any way indicate his offerings are less valuable. That's all I was trying to point out.

 

I'm glad you found what works for you and your children. I hope the original post-er finds (or creates :)) what works best for hers. :)

 

I think the best advice to the original post-er is 'if you don't like it, don't use it'! That is something I bet everyone here can agree with.

 

Oh no, I love IEW. It works for us and I use it as it's written. I was suggesting that I don't care who comes up with material, whether the author has a degree or is sanctioned by someone else, if I believe the approach is the best for my child I will use it. For me, this is all about my son's education and future and I will use what helps him along the best.

 

I was responding to Bill's suggestion that simply because Andrew P does not have a degree to his liking or is sanctioned by someone else the material is no good. Apparently, it didn't come through clear.

 

I agree strongly with your post.

 

Jim

Link to post
Share on other sites
Academic credentials are earned at institutions of higher learning. They are not endorsed by some monolithic "Government."

 

To claim to the "Director" of an "Institute" when no institution of higher learning has awarded one a legitimate academic degree strikes me as fraud. Not at all honest.

 

If he simply presented himself as an "autodidact" that would be one thing. But to claim to be the Director of an Institute? What chutzpah!

 

Bill

 

:iagree:I have looked at the curriculum previously and decided it was not for us based on style, but knowing this information makes me even less likely to consider it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Second, You are still your child's teacher. I'd have a talk with your tutor and let her know that you are not requiring your child to follow IEW format for her science paper.

.....

But again - just let the tutor know what you are requiring. If she knows that your daughter is not using IEW for them then she won't correct her when her papers deviate from it. Just remember - you are the teacher.

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

I think this is the most important point for the o.p. and I'm surprised more people haven't discussed it. I think implementation varies from tutor to tutor. They are possibly required to give IEW-type comments on papers, but it is up to you as the parent/teacher to decide what you expect and what grade you award. I would definitely discuss with the tutor that you don't expect IEW style techniques in her papers.

 

Will you come back and tell us what you find out?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, great responses and food for thought.

 

As I was venting a frustration and opinion, I appreciate that the comments and responses did not attempt to change my opinion, but either gave sympathy and agreement (because I really did wonder if I was the ONLY person who didn't like this program, and I thought maybe I was really a HORRIBLE writer, despite my college prof's encouragements!) OR gave some sympathy and suggestions -- that maybe I will like it better in a while, or maybe I could talk to the tutor, etc.

 

Just to clarify (should others desire to chime in with some advice!), this particular level of our program is using Bible Based Writing Lessons. I have NOT looked ahead in the book, and I am going to do so this afternoon. Someone mentioned that it moves beyond simple keyword outlines. Perhaps I will find that it grows on me. We entered Challenge A (roughly 7th grade, for those not familiar with Classical Conversations) without the benefit of ANY previous IEW work, which was a known disadvantage going in to the program (I had good intentions of at least watching the DVDs over the summer, but alas, the road . . . anyway). So, I was aware of the IEW Bible Based Writing for the first semester. I did not realize that the IEW *approach* was utilized in the science curriculum. I am willing to give it a fair shot, especially since I know my older daughter NEVER learned to summarize until her IEW experience. I just think it's a shame, first of all, that it was never mentioned to me (although, really, CC does promote IEW so much, I should have assumed) and that my dd had to discard a perfectly lovely little essay because it wasn't done with a key word outline. (I did send an email to her tutor to ask if she could use it this week, and if we could get a better explanation of what is expected.)

 

As to the comment that IEW is used in the upper levels -- I must be missing something major. I have a daughter in Challenge III, and she does not have to use ANY IEW materials OR write any papers in the IEW format. The instructions that she is given in her guide as to how to write her essays, etc, are what I would consider very traditional, MLA format writing (the way I was taught). I am prepping to tutor Challenge II next year, and there is NO mention of IEW anywhere in my materials that I can find. I don't recall seeing anything in Challenge B, either. So, I'm rather hoping that if we can muddle through this year (and perhaps strike a compromise with our tutor for Challenge A) we will be able to move on. If I look more closely and discover that IEW is, in fact, an integral part of the entire Challenge program? We'll be moving on to something else.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was responding to Bill's suggestion that simply because Andrew P does not have a degree to his liking or is sanctioned by someone else the material is no good. Apparently, it didn't come through clear.

 

I agree strongly with your post.

 

Jim

 

You misrepresent my objection, one which I made quite clearly.

 

My problem is not with Andrew Pudewa's lack of a degree (although his lack of higher education does raise concerns) it is with the claim that he is the "Director" of an "Institute." It clearly is not the case.

 

When people make these sorts of misrepresentations about themselves, and they also promote people like Oliver DeMille who has misrepresented his credentials (and who runs a diploma mill) it raises doubts in my mind as to issues of character.

 

Add all the worldview components that some may find refreshing (but I don't) and an education model that I find unappealing, and I'm left with little to like.

 

I'm more than a little surprised that people don't have a problem with the man's claim to be the Director of an Institute, when there is no such Institute. Does this inflation (understatement) of his job description sit well with you?

 

Bill

Edited by Spy Car
Link to post
Share on other sites
You misrepresent my objection, one which I made quite clearly.

 

My problem is not with Andrew Pudewa's lack of a degree (although his lack of higher education does raise concerns) it is with the claim that he is the "Director" of an "Institute." It clearly is not the case.

 

When people make these sorts of misrepresentations about themselves, and they also promote people like Oliver DeMille who has misrepresented his credentials (and who runs a diploma mill) it raises doubts in my mind as to issues of character.

 

Add all the worldview components that some may find refreshing (but I don't) and an education model that I find unappealing, and I'm left with little to like.

 

I'm more than a little surprised that people don't have a problem with the man's claim to be the Director of an Institute, when there is no such Institute. Does this inflation (understatement) of his job description sit well with you?

 

Bill

 

Sorry, but I'm just not that impressed with your argument that he is inflating anything. What is your definition of "institute"?

 

From Dictionary.com:

noun

7. a society or organization for carrying on a particular work, as of a literary, scientific, or educational character.

 

8. the building occupied by such a society.

 

9. Education . a. an institution, generally beyond the secondary school level, devoted to instruction in technical subjects, usually separate but sometimes organized as a part of a university.

 

b. a unit within a university organized for advanced instruction and research in a relatively narrow field of subject matter.

 

c. a short instructional program set up for a special group interested in a specialized field or subject.

 

 

 

10. an established principle, law, custom, or organization.

 

11. institutes, a. an elementary textbook of law designed for beginners.

 

b. ( initial capital letter thinsp.png) Also called Institutes of Justinian. an elementary treatise on Roman law in four books, forming one of the four divisions of the Corpus Juris Civilis.

 

 

 

 

 

He never claimed to be an accredited educational institute. But their work centers around his philosophy in learning, particularly writing, and includes workshops and teacher trainings. Sounds like an institute to me.

 

Semantics aside, everyone will need to decide for themselves what products work for their family and to what extent its creator's background affects that decision. I will let his resume speak for itself. I am not of the mind that one necessarily needs higher degrees to produce a product that works for our family. Frankly, the fact that he's a homeschooling father of seven is enough credential for me if he can help my kids become better writers.

 

Lisa

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...