Are Michael and Debi Pearl “Guilty as Charged?� by Rebekah Anast

[annandatje]

...Sad side story - I was in a store with my children when we saw another mom. Her little guy, about 2, was really acting up and wouldn't come when she called so she looked at him and said, "alright then, I'm leaving" and walked around the corner. The little guy looked so frightened and started having crying. She did not come back. He continued crying. I do not butt in EVER, I really mind my own business, but this time I was on my way to tell that little guy that his mama would never leave him and lead him to her. Fortunately she came back. Now that, to me, is cruel. It would have been much kinder to calmly say to him, "You must obey when i tell you to come." and gently swat his little thigh. Not hard, not in anger, just to let him know you mean it. It's a matter of safety....QUOTE]

 

She could have simply picked him up and carried him on his way. Pretending to abandon him and "swatting" his thigh are not the only options.

[OnTheBrink]

I think the Pearls are Swine.

[sewingmama]

Although I haven't read anything by these people two things on their website stood out that made my skin crawl and know they are preaching rubbish.

 

"Our grandchildren smack their dolls and laugh about it" - there is no child psychologist in the world that would see this as a normal play interaction. Any child doing this in play therapy is immediately recommended for further intervetion because it is an indicator of child abuse.

 

Second - when they mentioned in the interview that it is ok to smack a child of 7 with a belt 15 times. 15 times even with your open hand on their butt is excessive - and a child should never be struck with a belt -EVER.

 

Jesus NEVER struck anyone to discipline them - he used kind words and a good example.

 

I bet when Jesus took the babies on his lap some of them pulled at his beard - but he didn't slap their hands away or hit them with a stick - he blessed them.

[Joanne]

I think the Pearls are Swine.

 

This is the second best post in this thread. I will be laughing all day tomorrow. :):lol:

[Sputterduck]

They use a little thin tube of plastic to pop their babies on the thigh. I pop my babies on the back of the hand with my finger. But again, it's not about punishment or about hurting the baby. It's about training them, and it is far more gentle then "switching a four month old sounds."

 

I said switching because they used a switch from a tree on a 4 month old. Though, I don't think it really matter if it's plumbing supply line or a switch. It's a 4 month old baby...

[Joanne]

Jesus NEVER struck anyone to discipline them - he used kind words and a good example.

 

.

 

He was stern and firm and even dramatic when needed. The Temple, for example. Or sometimes in characterizing the disciples' lack of understanding.

[Heather in Neverland]

there is no church other than the one in michael pearl's head where it is taught that a parent can deliver a child from sin by beating the child. That is not a christian doctrine. It is a misunderstanding and misapplication of a proverb from the time of solomon.

 

Jesus christ paid the price for the sin of the world. For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

if people could be delivered from sin by a parenting method, jesus would have never gone to the cross! God would have just sent a prophet with a wagon full of plumbing supply line, then, and no savior of mankind would have had to give himself for us all, out of love. For while we were yet sinners, christ died for us.

 

Hear that? Daddy doesn't deliver you from sin with his belt or spoon or whip. By that abuse you are not absolved, having paid for your crime! It is by christ's stripes that we are healed, not by a baby's stripes inflicted by her own father.

 

This is part of the deception: Families are flat ignoring the teachings of their own churches, willing to be seduced by the promises of perfect children. They are not measuring pearl's theology with their own, or that of their church. But pearl's bad methodology is driven by his bad theology. It matters.

 

awesome post of the day award.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

awesome post of the day award.

 

Thank you, but what happened to my capital letters? :tongue_smilie:

[katilac]

I don't begrudge you your opinion, but I think it does a disservice to people who are truly abused and hurting to lump them in with well-adjusted, happy adults who fully denounce they were abused. Unless you have actual evidence that her parents abused her, why would we jump to this conclusion?

 

I think most people consider the Pearl's own writings to be the "actual evidence" that they abused their children.

 

Just to clarify, because this is another common misconception, but they do not advocate using PVC pipe, as in the big white tubes used in plumbing. They mention PVC piping, as in thin, flexible, clear tubing. It may make no difference in your opinion of them, especially if one does not believe in spanking period, but surely there is a distinction here! Among people who do spank, a wooden spoon is not an unusual choice of paddle. But if I were against there form of discipline and told others they beat their child with a 2x4, then I am not being intellectually honest but going for the sensational.

 

"Flexible" and "lightweight" does not translate into "doesn't hurt much." Have you ever wondered why they would recommend a special trip to the hardware store, when they are, if we are honest, numerous lightweight items around the house that we could hit babies with? It is because snapping flexible plastic tubing onto the skin stings like a mother, but the parent can comfort themselves with the thought that it is very lightweight indeed. And people who advocate hitting babies and toddlers with plastic tubing and tree branches really do not require further sensationalizing.

 

 

When he says "sit on the kid if you have to" I honestly and completely do not believe that he means a parent should forcefully and angrily hold a child down and beat them. He means it in the same way my old grandfather would say "I'ma gonna beat that boy within an inch of his life!" That is to say, not literally.

 

Why on earth would you doubt that he means it? Your grandfather was speaking casually; the Pearls are writing published books with the explicit intent of telling parents EXACTLY how to train up a child. And they are exact indeed, down to the size and type of tree branch that is acceptable for whipping a toddler. He means it when he says you should hit a baby with pvc piping, he means it when he says you should whip a baby till they have no breath left to cry, so why on earth would he not mean it when he says to sit on the kid if you have to? That's hardly the most repulsive recommendation in the book, anyway.

 

But honestly, if you have read through their materials, there is no way one would come away thinking they would advocate beating a child to death, or abusing a child like this.

 

I have read their materials. Of course they don't advocate beating a child to death. They do advocate child abuse, and in my opinion they do it in a willfully negligent way, one in which great harm can only be expected to occur at times. Their advice to whip a child until he has no breath left to cry is particularly dangerous.

 

This is a doctrinal difference I have with them as well. In my opinion, there are good and valid and Biblical "exceptions" for divorce, and sexual immorality, which includes molesting children, is a big one. On the other hand, if a woman *chooses* to forgive her repentant husband of sexual immorality and stay with him anyway, I would never condemn her for that choice. If believe Debi Pearl is trying to express the lengths to which some women will choose to be their husband's help meet, even in the face un unthinkable betrayal. I wish she would have shared it as an extreme example and not so much as a recommendation, as it seems to come across in this quote.

 

I think that's exactly what she was trying to express, and I think it's disgusting. This crime is not about betraying a wife, it is about MOLESTING A CHILD. A child who has to then see his mom protect his abuser instead of himself. But what the hey, it's not like the kid doesn't already know he is a lower being who is supposed to humble himself before the highest power.

 

Remember, the Pearls do not stop at the example of forgiving a REPENTANT molester; the unrepentant molester has to go to jail, but is to be welcomed back into the home when his sentence is served. but keep those kids safe, now! And, for anyone who isn't aware, every study on the planet shows that repentance means nothing when it comes to a child molester. He will not stop molesting, but he sure will be sorry every time he does it. The SLIGHTEST amoount of reading into the subject will show this, so I consider their advice to to stay with a repentant molester to be not only heartbreaking but criminally negligent.

 

They use a little thin tube of plastic to pop their babies on the thigh. I pop my babies on the back of the hand with my finger. But again, it's not about punishment or about hurting the baby.

 

Of course it's about hurting the baby. If it wasn't, why the pvc tubing? If they don't want to use their hands, they are any number of soft and flexible items in the home that could be used. They make the trip to Home Depot's plumbing department instead, because snapping skin with flexible tubing stings and hurts. The Pearls make it very, very clear that whippings are supposed to hurt. One can accuse them of many things, but being difficult to understand is not one of them.

 

I do believe that infants thrive on love. I just happen to believe that helping them set boundaries and learn their way in this world is another expression of love.

 

Setting boundaries is not the issue here. No one seems to be arguing against that.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I remember one day when an extended family member was over with her large brood, and my (then) toddler was fussing and refusing to take his nap. This is what happened in that horrible moment:

 

I looked at my little one and said, "Do I need to get the spoon?" And all my little relatives thought I meant that I was going to spank him! Some of them shriveled back with wide eyes, but the oldest ran to get a spoon for me to spank the baby. That was familiar, you see.

 

I felt my heart break that they all thought I was going to strike him with a kitchen utensil the way they were struck in similar circumstances. But I was offering comfort, not punishment! I could still just cry out about this. I knew the family was into No Greater Joy at the time, but I forgot that the children might be alarmed by such a phrase as, "Do you need me to get the spoon."

 

You see, my little one had a wooden spoon that he liked to sleep with, and that's what I was talking about! I had drawn a funny face on an old wooden spoon with a permanent marker, and tied a handkerchief around it for clothes. (This child was fussy and unique; he never wanted a favorite toy to carry around. He loved for me to take something new and turn it into a new 'friend.') "Spoon Baby" actually amused him for weeks. I even wrote a funny song to sing when we rocked and held "Spoon Baby."

 

Plumbing supply line is for moving water from here to there. Wooden spoons are for stirring oatmeal, or occasionally for turning into toys.

[jenncslp]

I really have no words for how horrified I am at their advice, and I have read many of their writings. It also petrifies me that not just biological parents (which is horrendous enough), but adoptive parents are the ones who are taking their advice to the extreme and killing their children. As an adoptive parent I've learned that my child can not be disciplined in the same way that I would a child from birth. She has a different past, unknown experiences, trauma, neglect...she needs so much more understanding and grace. This information is so dangerous.

 

But, I also pity them for the day that they will be judged for all of this. Luke 17:2

 

It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.

[Heather in Neverland]

Thank you, but what happened to my capital letters? :tongue_smilie:

 

I'm not sure where yours are but mine are often lost when i type on my ipad. just can't seem to get the hang of this new-fangled touch screen!

[LucyStoner]

I don't think anyone is saying that the Schatzes are not responsible for killing Lydia because of the book. The point is not that the Pearl's killed Lydia, it is that their words are fueling abuse and injury, up to and including death, in many kids. More than 1 Pearl reading family now have killed their precious children. This does not make the parents any less guilty. I am glad the dad got 22 years and the mom more than a decade, frankly I would have given them more. They are personally responsible for their heinous crimes. The Pearls are in fact personally responsible for their un-Christian and inhumane, barbaric teachings.

[SonshineLearner]

When you adopt, don't you normally get some parenting skills, as well as not be able to spank while going through adoption? While I have and maybe will spank my son again, I believe that children who have gone through such a trauma, should be carefully thought of... when thinking of appropriate discipline. Mispronouncing a word, as Lydia did, is for sure... not a spanking offense. (ever) I can't even fathom what they were thinking, when beating her until she died. I can't imagine what all the families who helped them adopt (which I'm assuming others helped) think of the abuse until death that happened. Poor Lydia, poor other siblings, poor twisted parents who are really.... parents no more :( Very sad... I just can't imagine what would make a parent beat a child.... Spank? yes.... beat to death... no... Hopefully her death is a wake up call to those who are adopting, and perhaps families should know... that if it's too much... they can take a break from their child. It just seems like there should be help for families who bite off too much :(

[sewingmama]

He was stern and firm and even dramatic when needed. The Temple, for example. Or sometimes in characterizing the disciples' lack of understanding.

 

With adults yes - not children and he still never hit anybody :001_smile:

[RanchGirl]

Changed my mind. I've heard this all before, and there is nothing more to say.

 

Except this: Not all of us are willing to stand by while children are beaten with hardware and cooking implements. I can and I have stopped the abuse when it crops up in my presence. More people should do the same. Either call the police, or wrest the 'rod' from the parent's hand. Enough of this wickedness.

 

:iagree:

[RanchGirl]

Still leaving the reader of said materials in complete charge of their actions.

 

Of course the parent who murders a child is responsible for his/her actions. Who is disputing that? Even the Schatzs don't dispute it, they pled guilty. But what in the world is wrong with Michael and Debi Pearl that they don't care that their instruction has caused multiple children's deaths; in fact they glory and brag and laugh about it and make chicken jokes and taunt that their children will be ruling the world while all the non-beaten children will unemployed and unsaved... begging the Pearl's children for jobs and preaching. (Huh? Spiritual AND material success are promised if you follow their methods? That doesn't make sense on any level.) They are contributing to the abuse of little ones in the name of Christ. I wouldn't stand next to these people for fear of lightning strikes.

 

And what is wrong with people who defend this and are so sold on this behavior that they will publicly brag about "thumping" and "popping" their BABIES?? Those are cutesy terms for hitting an infant. How does a well-intentioned mother get to that point? That's not OK in any way, shape or form. There is something horrifically WRONG here -- this is not appropriate parenting from a Biblical, spiritual, moral, scientific or common sense standpoint. I am telling you genuinely, if you don't see the wrongness, please for the love of God and your children, take a step back and pray about it. Because something is wrong with your viewpoint.

[Cricket]

I have never read To Train Up a Child. I checked my library and they don't have it, (which I was actually relieved about, so that less people have access to it), and I won't pay money to buy it.

 

But I have read many of the articles on their website, and that is enough for me to come to a conclusion about their teachings, and they disgust me.

 

How about this article: http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/general-view/archive/1999/august/01/infant-manifesto/'>http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/general-view/archive/1999/august/01/infant-manifesto/ where Michael Pearl supposedly writes from the perspective of an infant, when in reality he is writing from an adult perspective, pretending to be an infant. Babies don't think that way, they are not developmentally able to understand other people as entirely separate from them, with their own needs. I feel saddened for any baby in the care of someone who views them the way Michael Pearl writes and teaches. It sets up a combative atmosphere, from the get-go.

 

I take issue with so much that he says, here is just one example:

 

http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/general-view/archive/1999/august/01/infant-manifesto/

 

 

 

There is something wrong with a baby wanting to be held just to be held? The baby has to be hurting, hungry, or cold to be held? Babies lie? This just breaks my heart for babies who are raised by people who believe these things.

 

That kind of thinking paves the way for neglect and abuse. I do hold the Pearls responsible for the abuses that have occurred by parents following their teachings, as well as the parents themselves.

 

I've heard similar things--that babies lie when they cry and nothing is physically wrong. Babies like to be held. They were snug and warm inside the mother for nine months, for heaven's sake. Of course they love to be snuggled. I never did understand why a baby was "lying" when he cried. I'm sure if he had the words, "Please hold me!" he would said it! :glare: It's not like a baby has a choice about using a cry. So stupid!

[RanchGirl]

I feel the same way about Lady Gaga. :lol:

 

really? Who is beating children to death because Lady Gaga taught them their children's salvation depends on it?

[ByGrace3]

I had never heard of the Pearl's before this week. Now, I have read much, too much, and honestly don't even know what to say. I dare someone I know to mention them. I just read this from their website, and am simply horrified. Happy? joy? A child too scared to feel? sick.

 

I could break his anger in two days. He would be too scared to get angry. On the third day he would draw into a quiet shell and obey. On the fourth day I would treat him with respect and he would respond in kind. On the fifth day the fear would go away and he would relax because he would have judged that as long as he responds correctly there is nothing to fear. On the sixth day he would like himself better and enjoy his new relationship to authority. On the seventh day I would fellowship with him in some activity that he enjoyed. On the eight day he would love me and would make a commitment to always please me because he valued my approval and fellowship. On the ninth day someone would comment that I had the most cheerful and obedient boy that they had ever seen. On the tenth day we would be the best of buddies.

[LucyStoner]

I had never heard of the Pearl's before this week. Now, I have read much, too much, and honestly don't even know what to say. I dare someone I know to mention them. I just read this from their website, and am simply horrified. Happy? joy? A child too scared to feel? sick.

 

What is so disturbing about this is that the quote you cite is also exactly what abusive partners do to their victims and follows a similar pattern to how child predators mold their victims. It is beyond all common decency. My heart aches for any child whose parents buy this as ok.

[aggieamy]

Sorry but you lost my respect at: I hit babies.

 

FTR, calling it a "thump" a "pop" a "spat" or a "tap" does not diminish the fact that they advocate using force against a child, sometimes as an INFANT. We show adults more respect than we show children. If I were to use physical force against an adult they can have me charged with ASSAULT, but it is still legally protected in some areas (most, I believe) to strike a child. Repugnant and unbelievable.

 

And, I'm sorry, but pvc pipe vs. plumbing supply line is puh-TAY-to/puh-TAH-to. The implement with which they advocate a parent STRIKE THEIR CHILD is irrelevant, imo.

 

:iagree:

 

Changed my mind. I've heard this all before, and there is nothing more to say.

 

Except this: Not all of us are willing to stand by while children are beaten with hardware and cooking implements. I can and I have stopped the abuse when it crops up in my presence. More people should do the same. Either call the police, or wrest the 'rod' from the parent's hand. Enough of this wickedness.

 

:iagree:

[Heather in Neverland]

I dare someone I know to mention them. .

 

:iagree:

 

Typically I follow a "live and let live" policy when it comes to people I know IRL and their parenting. I figure nobody's perfect.

 

BUT

 

If someone I knew IRL told me they were following the Pearl's discipline advice I would most likely go berserk and if I could not convince them to stop I would not be friends with them... I may even report them to CPS. Yes, that is how strongly I feel about using physical punishment on an infant.

[Laura Corin]

So for example, if my baby grabs my hair and tugs, I thump them on the hand while saying "no."

 

Laura

[pdalley]

I will think badly of a woman choosing to stay with her husband when he has sexually abused their children. I honestly don't understand another woman who wouldn't do the same. I really don't get how you can say this is ok. I can't believe you're trying to defend it.

 

 

:iagree: Sorry, I have read the Pearls and I think they advocate abuse. My oldest and youngest are autistic and hypo sensitive. Do you know how hard one would have to spank for such a child to feel or achieve the results the Pearls advocate?

 

As a Christian I am very sad that they claim to be Christian and advocated hitting babies and going back to a child molester husband.

 

Child molesters CAN NOT BE FIXED. I do so wish people would understand that.

[Runningmom80]

Of course the parent who murders a child is responsible for his/her actions. Who is disputing that? Even the Schatzs don't dispute it, they pled guilty. But what in the world is wrong with Michael and Debi Pearl that they don't care that their instruction has caused multiple children's deaths; in fact they glory and brag and laugh about it and make chicken jokes and taunt that their children will be ruling the world while all the non-beaten children will unemployed and unsaved... begging the Pearl's children for jobs and preaching. (Huh? Spiritual AND material success are promised if you follow their methods? That doesn't make sense on any level.) They are contributing to the abuse of little ones in the name of Christ. I wouldn't stand next to these people for fear of lightning strikes.

 

And what is wrong with people who defend this and are so sold on this behavior that they will publicly brag about "thumping" and "popping" their BABIES?? Those are cutesy terms for hitting an infant. How does a well-intentioned mother get to that point? That's not OK in any way, shape or form. There is something horrifically WRONG here -- this is not appropriate parenting from a Biblical, spiritual, moral, scientific or common sense standpoint. I am telling you genuinely, if you don't see the wrongness, please for the love of God and your children, take a step back and pray about it. Because something is wrong with your viewpoint.

 

 

I agree.

 

 

I'm trying to convince myself that it's just plain ignorance that is causing parents to act this way. Surely, anyone who has taken child development 101, or read any modern literature or studies on discipline would have no choice but to see the great harm they are causing their children.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Runningmom80