How would you respond to this comment?

[Michelle in MO]

Before I post this, let me state first that in no way do I intend to make light of or capitalize for the purposes of discussion the recent tragedy with the death of Stephen Curtis Chapman's daughter. Also, I realize that many of us have divergent views on the nature and character of God, so I want to be respectful of that.

 

Here's the comment/situation:

 

I mentioned on the phone to a friend this morning, one whom I know really likes Stephen Curtis Chapman, about the death of the musician's daughter. After some commisseration, her comment was: "God caused this to happen so that He could do a work in the heart of Stephen Curtis Chapman and his family."

 

I felt like my heart sunk, and I hurt even more for the family. I just cannot see God like this. God is both all-powerful but also full of love. I don't personally picture the nature and character of God to be someone who causes children to die to work on the character of someone's heart. Perhaps I misunderstood this friend, although I have heard her make similar comments about other situations.

 

I want to tread carefully here. I realize there are divergent views on the extent of God's sovereignty and purposes. I realize this brings up issues of the nature of God and other topics which have some points of difference among many Christians. I understand Romans 8:28 ("God causes all things to work together for good, to those who love God, and to those who are called according to His purpose.") to mean that He can take tragic events and turn them for good. I don't see Him as causing these tragedies.

 

I'm still praying for the Chapman family, and I'm in no way trying to make light of the tragedy. I just felt "hurt" by this comment---not in a personal way---but in the way that I just don't see God's nature like this at all.

 

Can we discuss this carefully and respectfully?

[Joanne]

"God caused this to happen so that He could do a work in the heart of Stephen Curtis Chapman and his family."

 

This is not my theological understanding or my understanding of doctrine.

 

I believe that God is crying *with* the family over the tragic, human, horrible accident that caused an early death.

 

My understanding of God does not allow for him to, like a puppetier, play with the heartstrings of humans in order to make a point. He wishes for, and woos us even, during difficult times to rely on HIM but he does not cause things to happen so that we will. He knows that in living in this complex, fallen world, the unfolding of events provides plenty of opportunity for us to turn to him instead of our own wisdom.

 

The words are inaccurate, at best, and hurtful at worst.

[Chris in CA]

Love this response!

[clwcain]

her comment was: "God caused this to happen so that He could do a work in the heart of Stephen Curtis Chapman and his family."

 

:eek: I've run into this line of thinking before. I'll be honest. I have no civil response for that line of thought.

 

I understand Romans 8:28 ("God causes all things to work together for good, to those who love God, and to those who are called according to His purpose.") to mean that He can take tragic events and turn them for good. I don't see Him as causing these tragedies.

 

:iagree:

 

 

Can we discuss this carefully and respectfully?

I'm fairly certain that I cannot, beyond what I've just said.

:lurk5:

[Michelle in AL]

I agree Michelle. I think it all has to do with what you believe free will to be. Different denominations see this very differently. If God gives us free will, then He does not necessarily cause tragic events to occur in our lives, but can as you said turn them into positive, character changing situations. That's how I see the meaning of Romans 8:28.

 

I think it is possible for God to test us, as he tested many in the Bible, but God never works without true love.

 

C.S. Lewis said we may never understand the true interweaving of God's sovereignty and free will and I agree. We are here for such a short time. We really don't know how much God has intervened in our lives and we can't see how different situations effect others for years to come, sometimes long after us. I think it is very presumptive to assign God's hand to things we have no idea if they were in fact His doing. It can in fact be damaging to other's faith and that should keep anyone from making such assumptions.

 

Sigh.

[PiCO]

"God caused this to happen so that He could do a work in the heart of Stephen Curtis Chapman and his family."

 

 

I heard this comment more than once when my dh was dying of cancer. I'm an atheist, so I took it with a grain of salt- I do believe the people who said these things were trying to make me feel better- but I don't get it.

 

If I did believe in a god, I can only imagine being very emotionally distressed that he or she would want such a wonderful person to be gone from my family, leaving two daughters to grow up fatherless. What good will come from that?

 

I did notice that no one who had actually gone through a similar personal tradgedy said anything like this. Vague comments like "God must have a purpose" and such don't worry me as much, but I am appalled at comments stating that there is a reason for death from disease and natural disaster.

[CookieMonster]

I agree with things the way you presented them, Michelle. I think you are doctrinally sound with your view of God.

 

Are you trying to understand your friend? Are you looking for ways to change her mind?

 

If so, these are the perfect moments to respectfully and lovingly disagree with her and present your understanding of the situation.

 

HTH

[Elaine]

I probably would have asked her if she meant "allowed" instead of "caused."

 

I do not believe that God is the cause of pain or suffering, but He does allow it. Hopefully that makes sense and comes across the way that I mean it.

[Twinmom]

"God caused this to happen so that He could do a work in the heart of Stephen Curtis Chapman and his family."

 

I just felt "hurt" by this comment---not in a personal way---but in the way that I just don't see God's nature like this at all.

 

:iagree:

 

That's not the God I know!

 

I'll give you the same answer I gave my mom when she lost her mom and dad to cancer/alzheimer's in the same month: Bad things happen because there is sin in the world, not because God wants us to suffer (for purposes of growth or not!). People who believe that God "causes" or "allows" these things to happen have it backwards. God hates death, illness, abuse, etc. more than we do. He would prefer that none of these things existed (and someday they won't!), but does not stop them because to do so would mean intervening in the thing that caused them in the first place: our free will to choose good or evil. Our ability to choose to accept or reject Him is what makes us human, and He does not choose to take that away from us. If your friend wants to blame God for something, tell her to blame Him for loving her enough to let her choose to accept or reject Him! ;)

 

Now, God DOES love us enough to be there with us when we suffer and to help bring some good out of terrible experiences...I think that is the meaning of Romans 8:28. He is bigger than death, bigger than sickness, etc. and He loves us enough to use our life circumstances to His glory. IMO, that is what He means when He says that all things work together for good in the lives of believers: He means that He makes it so! Tragedies, illnesses are the consequences of global sin in the world (for which ALL carry the blame) and most of the time have little to nothing specific to do with the suffering individual.

 

To get more specific, I'll use myself as an example. I cannot conceive. Does that mean that God cursed me with infertility so that I'd receive just punishment for my sins? Nope. He grieves with me over it. However, He is also there to make lemons out of lemonade, so to speak! I now have five beautiful children through adoption/stepparenting who bless my life tremendously...and whom I've been able to help pull out of fairly desperate circumstances when I adopted them. Does that look like punishment for sin to you? Nope...looks like God's loving compassion to me! :D

 

I'm a bit passionate on this subject...sorry for the soapbox!

[Kelli in TN]

I would say to her the same thing I said to my brother-in-law the day his only son died..."I think God is weeping too".

 

I believe His heart breaks for us when we have to say goodbye to someone, especially when it is far too soon by our sense of time and justice.

 

I just don't see a God Who is sitting up above seeing who He can zap next.

 

Stuff happens. Sometimes God intervenes with a miracle. Sometimes the miracle is how He helps us survive. I don't think I have the right to second guess His reasons.

[*anj*]

Michelle,

I hear what you're saying. I wouldn't like to hear that from a friend either.

 

Since I don't know your friend I can't say whether or not this was a typical thing for her to say. If she is normally empathetic and compassionate then maybe she just didn't know what else to say. I think that at times like this people often blurt out the first thought that pops into their mind...and sometimes that thought is...not the greatest.

 

I feel the need to extend grace to all parties in times of tragedy. Thankfully there are no experts in handling extreme suffering, so we're all kind of doing the best we can.

[LND1218]

Oh my! That's awful that she thinks that...

 

God is sovereign and know the number of our days (PS 139:16) and God allows these things to happen. He could have stopped it, but he didn't for what reasons I don't know. And He will work this for good (Romans 8:28). Something amazing will come from this because that's the way God is.

 

But death is a result of sin and the fall. Death comes because we live in a fallen world. It's the result of our sin not God's goodness.

[Twinmom]

I would say to her the same thing I said to my brother-in-law the day his only son died..."I think God is weeping too".

 

I believe His heart breaks for us when we have to say goodbye to someone, especially when it is far too soon by our sense of time and justice.

 

I just don't see a God Who is sitting up above seeing who He can zap next.

 

Stuff happens. Sometimes God intervenes with a miracle. Sometimes the miracle is how He helps us survive. I don't think I have the right to second guess His reasons.

 

I love that, Kelli. You said it far better than I did!

[emzhengjiu]

How incredibly sad that someone could believe our loving God would cause a child to die in order to change a parent's heart. From scripture, I believe that God, the Father of our Lord Jesus, will use this deep pain to bring about good but I don't believe there's scripture to say with any confidence that God caused this to happen. I agree it's presumptuous of fallible humans to assign cause to God. Such statements without clear scriptural support add pain to those already hurting when we are commanded to comfort those that mourn. Praying for the Chapman family and all those who have lost loved ones.

 

Blessings,

Judy

[Chris in VA]

ITA with you. Love how you stated this so clearly. I'm 100% with you.

[Michelle in MO]

This is not my theological understanding or my understanding of doctrine.

 

I believe that God is crying *with* the family over the tragic, human, horrible accident that caused an early death.

 

My understanding of God does not allow for him to, like a puppetier, play with the heartstrings of humans in order to make a point. He wishes for, and woos us even, during difficult times to rely on HIM but he does not cause things to happen so that we will. He knows that in living in this complex, fallen world, the unfolding of events provides plenty of opportunity for us to turn to him instead of our own wisdom.

 

The words are inaccurate, at best, and hurtful at worst.

 

 

This was a human tragedy, an accident, and I don't see the nature and character of God as causing an incident like that to happen in order to "change" someone's heart.

[Michelle in MO]

:eek: I've run into this line of thinking before. I'll be honest. I have no civil response for that line of thought.

 

 

:iagree:

 

 

 

I'm fairly certain that I cannot, beyond what I've just said.

:lurk5:

 

I don't agree with this friend at all, and I guess I bring it up because she has made similar comments many times. This time, I said nothing when she made that comment. I think if she makes a comment like this again, I'm going to speak up and politely disagree with her.

 

Thank you for sharing.

[Kathleen in VA]

I agree with some of the other posters here that God is definitely weeping. I also agree that all the suffering in the world is caused by sin - not necessarily *that* person's sin (the one who is suffering) but by the effect caused by sin in a way that is too complicated to describe.

 

The absolutely wonderful thing about our loving, merciful God is that He is able to take tragedy and bring good out of it. He *does* work in people's hearts to draw them close to Him in situations like these, but He is *not* the author of such events. These are also the kinds of times when others can reach out in love to ease the pain - again, a way in which tragedies can be "used" for good.

 

I believe that precious little girl is safe in the arms of Jesus. I grieve so for the family and especially the brother - what he must be going through - tears are welling up as I think of it now.

 

The comfort is that someday they will all be together in heaven for eternity. That is a Christian's ultimate comfort in life in general since everyone eventually passes away and leaves this troubled, cursed earth. Our job while here is, among other things, to comfort those who grieve.

 

Perhaps a response to this lady would be, "I don't believe God causes tragedies to help us 'grow in Christ,' but He certainly is able to use them after they happen in order to do that."

[Michelle in MO]

I heard this comment more than once when my dh was dying of cancer. I'm an atheist, so I took it with a grain of salt- I do believe the people who said these things were trying to make me feel better- but I don't get it.

 

If I did believe in a god, I can only imagine being very emotionally distressed that he or she would want such a wonderful person to be gone from my family, leaving two daughters to grow up fatherless. What good will come from that?

 

I did notice that no one who had actually gone through a similar personal tradgedy said anything like this. Vague comments like "God must have a purpose" and such don't worry me as much, but I am appalled at comments stating that there is a reason for death from disease and natural disaster.

 

things like that because they really sometimes don't know what to say. Sometimes I think people are "reaching" for anything to comfort someone in a time of distress.

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly about your latter comment. I've never heard anyone make those kinds of comments who have been through a real tragedy. I think it can be easier to be more "flippant" if you haven't really struggled or suffered a similar tragedy.

 

I believe God's will is for our good, and I think if I lost my husband, as you have yours, and someone made a comment like that to me, I'd be pretty upset!

[Michelle in MO]

:iagree:

 

That's not the God I know!

 

People who believe that God "causes" or "allows" these things to happen have it backwards.

 

Now, God DOES love us enough to be there with us when we suffer and to help bring some good out of terrible experiences...I think that is the meaning of Romans 8:28. He is bigger than death, bigger than sickness, etc. and He loves us enough to use our life circumstances to His glory. IMO, that is what He means when He says that all things work together for good in the lives of believers: He means that He makes it so! Tragedies, illnesses are the consequences of global sin in the world (for which ALL carry the blame) and most of the time have little to nothing specific to do with the suffering individual.

 

To get more specific, I'll use myself as an example. I cannot conceive. Does that mean that God cursed me with infertility so that I'd receive just punishment for my sins? Nope. He grieves with me over it. However, He is also there to make lemons out of lemonade, so to speak! I now have five beautiful children through adoption/stepparenting who bless my life tremendously...and whom I've been able to help pull out of fairly desperate circumstances when I adopted them. Does that look like punishment for sin to you? Nope...looks like God's loving compassion to me! :D

 

I'm a bit passionate on this subject...sorry for the soapbox!

 

Don't apologize for the soapbox!

 

I found this comment from this friend to be insensitive and not fully founded on Scripture. Like I said before, this is not my understanding of Romans 8:28 or other, similar Scriptures. It concerns me, because she's made similar comments before about other situations. I don't want to argue Scripture with her, because she's pretty firm in her opinions, kwim? However, to me this line of reasoning allows for a very grim, hateful view of God.

[clwcain]

I don't agree with this friend at all, and I guess I bring it up because she has made similar comments many times. This time, I said nothing when she made that comment. I think if she makes a comment like this again, I'm going to speak up and politely disagree with her.

 

Thank you for sharing.

 

No offense taken. I just know my limits when it comes to debate, especially online. In person, with ample brandy and cigars to lubricate the discussion, I could have a great time debating this in the abstract. :)

 

But when such things were said to my wife and I in a moment of pain and suffering, it was all I could do not to beat the relative who spoke.

 

And, knowing from long experience how easily feelings can be hurt in online discussion, I'll refrain from airing my full, uncensored opinion on such an attitude.

[elegantlion]

My intial thought regarding that comment was "If God needs to work on Mr. Chapman's heart then I'm in big trouble." I don't agree with her line of thinking at all. It was an accident, and yes, I think God is weeping too. I'm a cancer survivor. My dh and I were new christians when I was diagnosed. God was really working on our hearts and if you follow her logic, then I should have died to "do a mighty work" on my dh's heart. :confused:

 

My heart is just breaking for this family. I do believe that God can turn this tragedy around and use it for good. I believe in the days to come we will all be amazed by the resolve and faith that comes from the entire Chapman family.

 

When I heard the news this morning I could help but think back to the death of Kyle Petty's son, Adam. My dh and I are big race fans, big Petty fans and I was absolutely heartbroken for his family. I tried a hundred times to write a letter of encouragement to his family, yet I couldn't enunciate my faith in the way I wanted. Then I started listening to and reading his interviews and his words of faith encouraged me. He said something that still sticks with me, "In times of tragedy people either turn towards God or turn away from God."

 

I believe we shall see the Chapman family continue to turn toward God and greatly encourage those of us who can't understand why this would be allowed to happen.

[Elaine]

My intial thought regarding that comment was "If God needs to work on Mr. Chapman's heart then I'm in big trouble." I don't agree with her line of thinking at all. It was an accident, and yes, I think God is weeping too. I'm a cancer survivor. My dh and I were new christians when I was diagnosed. God was really working on our hearts and if you follow her logic, then I should have died to "do a mighty work" on my dh's heart. :confused:

 

My heart is just breaking for this family. I do believe that God can turn this tragedy around and use it for good. I believe in the days to come we will all be amazed by the resolve and faith that comes from the entire Chapman family.

 

When I heard the news this morning I could help but think back to the death of Kyle Petty's son, Adam. My dh and I are big race fans, big Petty fans and I was absolutely heartbroken for his family. I tried a hundred times to write a letter of encouragement to his family, yet I couldn't enunciate my faith in the way I wanted. Then I started listening to and reading his interviews and his words of faith encouraged me. He said something that still sticks with me, "In times of tragedy people either turn towards God or turn away from God."

 

I believe we shall see the Chapman family continue to turn toward God and greatly encourage those of us who can't understand why this would be allowed to happen.

 

Very well said, Paula! You truly are an elegant lion!:grouphug:

[TXMomof4]

I did notice that no one who had actually gone through a similar personal tradgedy said anything like this. Vague comments like "God must have a purpose" and such don't worry me as much, but I am appalled at comments stating that there is a reason for death from disease and natural disaster.

 

I completely agree. A few years ago a couple in our bible class lost their 9 mo dd in an accident. Those of us in the class at the time really 'went through it' with this couple. The father especially really struggled with the Why? of it all. Now, a few years later we have several new people in class and whenever the topic of why do bad things happen there is always someone who says God has to do something to get our attention sometimes. All of us cringe, because they have obviously not had that something tragic happen in their lives that would make them REALLY think about that statement. It is just a glib response and it makes me want to cry.

 

However, Rom 8:28 is very true. I can see the things that have come out of that sweet girls death that never could have happened otherwise. It doesn't make her death ok by any stretch, but at least there is a little comfort in the situation.

 

And it will all be fine in the end. If its not fine, it's not the end.

[Just a Jen in Mississippi]

Perhaps she was just trying to find a positive in this tragedy and just didn't use the right wording. I know I'm notorious for trying to think and talk (or type) at the same time and it just does not always come out right (I'm not a multi-tasker!:lol:). When I heard about this tragedy, I also had thoughts of how God will use this one day, but in the mean time, all I could do is pray for this precious family as they trudge through the valley of death. I'm heart broken for them. I just believe that one day, he'll be able to minister to others who have faced similar tragedies in ways that others can't. But I do not believe that God caused this. God is good, but we live in a fallen world.

[cin]

 

To get more specific, I'll use myself as an example. I cannot conceive. Does that mean that God cursed me with infertility so that I'd receive just punishment for my sins? Nope. He grieves with me over it. However, He is also there to make lemons out of lemonade, so to speak! I now have five beautiful children through adoption/stepparenting who bless my life tremendously...and whom I've been able to help pull out of fairly desperate circumstances when I adopted them. Does that look like punishment for sin to you? Nope...looks like God's loving compassion to me! :D

 

I'm a bit passionate on this subject...sorry for the soapbox!

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

 

 

 

Same boat here. I had a miscarriage 12 years minus 7 days to the day that we brought our dd home from Vietnam.

 

God did use that time to work great things in my life, but I don't think He 'made it' happen. In the book of Job, Satan asks if he can hurt Job, and God says yes, but you may not touch him. Satan does this trying to get Job to turn away from God, and God knows that Job won't. Satan tests our faith, not God. God can turn the bad, horrible, painful circumstances in our life to good, to His glory, but he does not CAUSE them to happen.

 

Even now, I think about how many fathers may be more ready to stop with their daughters after hearing Cinderella, and thinking about the tragedy. We truly don't know what/when our time is up, but God knows.

 

On a different note, I am SO greatful that little Maria had these few years to live in a wonderful loving family instead of a run-down orphanage, or even worse. She lived a wonderful happy life. God did bless that little angel's life. And I'm sure she blessed the Chapman's endlessly.

 

 

[Michelle in MO]

echo my own. I'm fairly certain my friend meant caused instead of allowed. I grieve for her in a way, too, because I think her understanding of Scripture and God's nature is faulty (without sounding too harsh or judgmental), and I've seen this "play out" in other aspects of their lives in a way that's not healthy.

 

I would rep. you all, but apparently I've used up too many for today and have to wait until tomorrow.

 

My heart breaks for those of you who have suffered in such a way. May your hearts be healed through time and love. :grouphug:

[NewHomeSchoolMarm]

I am a Christian Woman and when I read that sad news I thought what a tragic situation for any family to find themselves in and only God can get them through. God hurts for this family too--He is their Father, merciful and full of compassion.

 

NHSM

[Geo]

I wouldn't even try to begin to figure out why such things happen. I won't say I don't wonder. The book of Job gives one pause. No matter what, God is always motivated by love and is good all of the time. I pray that is a comfort to the Chapmans in times like this.

 

Geo

[OnTheBrink]

I think it's the height of arrogance to assume one knows God's plans or His reasons for when a tragedy happens. It really makes me mad to hear people say such things. Your friend has no idea what's going on in the heart of SCC's family or what purposes will be attained through this heartbreaking tragedy.

 

Can God work in this family? Naturally, of course! Will He? Yes, if they lean on Him and not allow this to make them angry and bitter. God allowed this and no one knows the "reason" but God and all anyone can do is trust Him, lean on His word and promises and give Him glory for His goodness, even when it looks like He wasn't there.

 

I really hope the Chapmans have a strong circle of wagons around them right now and that they don't have to hear such flippant, "Oh, it happened so God can work in your life" stuff. UGH.

[Michelle in MO]

I really hope the Chapmans have a strong circle of wagons around them right now and that they don't have to hear such flippant, "Oh, it happened so God can work in your life" stuff. UGH.

 

I know; I think I would feel like clwcain if something tragic happened to a close family member and somebody said something like that to me.

[Melinda in VT]

I'm really not trying to offend, but I have a sincere question: If we are all agreed that God doesn't cause bad things to happen (and I agree with that), why should we assume he causes the good things? If bad things happen just because that's the way the world is, why don't good things happen for the same reason?

 

Just to clarify tone: I'm not combative or asking because I want to argue about it. I've just been thinking a lot about this lately and I'd love to hear some responses.

[Amy loves Bud]

My response? It must be nice to have the inside scoop on how God operates in a perfect stranger's life. I would love to have such an inside scoop like that.

 

Yeah, I'm afraid I wouldn't be so civil.

[lynn]

I don't think I'd want to be in church that would teach that God did this to turn your heart to Him, make you stronger. What an awful,sad thought that would be. Bad things happen in this world because of law of physics, nature etc, they just happen as well as good things happen because they happen sometimes there is no explanation. who are we to know the mind of God to say God caused this or that because of your sin or because you need to turn more to him. Sometimes there just are no answers.

[Jenny in Atl]

I guess I'm what you would call agnostic... and even I would have been left with mouth agape, not sure how to reply.

 

All I can think about is his teen child, all the pain he will have to suffer with for the rest of his life. As adults we have at least a bit more in our emotional tool bag to help us move forward, but not a young adult. This will leave a big scar, and he is going to need a ton of support and love from everyone to get through this.

[Michelle in MO]

I'm really not trying to offend, but I have a sincere question: If we are all agreed that God doesn't cause bad things to happen (and I agree with that), why should we assume he causes the good things? If bad things happen just because that's the way the world is, why don't good things happen for the same reason?

 

Just to clarify tone: I'm not combative or asking because I want to argue about it. I've just been thinking a lot about this lately and I'd love to hear some responses.

 

and character of God as being good. I believe He created this world to be good; I believe His purposes towards all of mankind to be good. However, we live in a fallen world. I don't need to look at other people to see this fallen nature or "essence"; I see it in my own life every single day. I believe I cannot save myself nor change myself; however, I am not condemned by this reality. I guess that's why I'm a Christian.

 

I wish I were as well-versed in philosophy as Charon is, because there are a whole host of philosophers and theologians who have dealt with this issue and come to different conclusions: St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, David Hume, etc.

 

And, I do believe good things happen in the world every day; things we do not expect that to me are "evidence" that there is still an essential "goodness" behind it all: a friend loses her wallet in a big city and perfect strangers return it (just happened to a friend of mine); a big bill suddenly gets paid off (happened to us); people do get healed and recover from sicknesses and diseases. Everyone? No---and I wish it were. Looking at all of the losses mankind has endured could crush anyone, and I believe those losses crushed God's heart, which is why I believe in Jesus as that burden-bearer. As I live out my life, I have to choose to be part of the solution (not Jesus, of course!), in my own small corner of the world.

 

This is an excellent question, Melinda, and one that I wish I could give a more "scholarly" response to, because there are very logical answers to your questions. I can only speak from my own experience and understanding, though.

 

I hope someone else with more wisdom and experience can expound upon this further.

[Twinmom]

I agree with Melinda...I believe God makes good things happen because it is an essential part of His nature to do so. The Bible doesn't just say He is loving...it says He IS love. For me, it's easy to believe that He brings good things, as that's who He is.

 

That said, there is more to God's character than just that. He is also just, omnipotent and true. He cannot/will not act outside of His essential character. So, we have to remember that if He does have a role in allowing the bad things to come about (which I believe He does, if only from the perspective of allowing us the consequences of sin), it is for our good and is done in a loving way...His ways are not our ways, and we often just don't get it! That's faith...trust in the light of both the good AND the bad! Love sometimes involves discipline, which is something that we all understand as a parent, or doing something for the child that hurts at the time but is done for his/her good (think, vaccinations, for example). God is no different.

 

Sometimes, to accept His love means that we have to accept the bad things that come our way, knowing that only HE is omnipotent and all-knowing and understands why the bad things happened. My infertility, again, is a good example. My problem is likely caused by a drug taken by my mother during pregnancy. OK, so do I blame God for not intervening? I could, I suppose, but I'd miss the fact that He didn't step in because He chose to use it for good in my life. It's certainly not pie in the sky thinking to see that it brought me closer to Him, and that my adopted children were meant to be mine! Punishment? No way. Loving involvement in my life, giving me a ministry I cherish, drawing me closer to Him? Absolutely!

 

Way different thinking, IMO, than to assume that God brings bad to punish someone...:D HTH.

[Brenda in FL]

I'm really not trying to offend, but I have a sincere question: If we are all agreed that God doesn't cause bad things to happen (and I agree with that), why should we assume he causes the good things? If bad things happen just because that's the way the world is, why don't good things happen for the same reason?

 

Just to clarify tone: I'm not combative or asking because I want to argue about it. I've just been thinking a lot about this lately and I'd love to hear some responses.

 

Just to add what others have said about God's goodness, this is from James 1:17.

 

"Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

 

I too grieve for the Chapman family, and I agree that this fallen world is why it happened. God did not cause it. But He will work this situation for good in the Chapman's life. (Romans 8:28).

[Remudamom]

I haven't read all of the responses, and I usually keep my religious views to myself, AND I don't express my view very well, but here goes.

 

I believe that God ordains all things. Good and bad or however we perceive them. And I believe that for those that love Him it is all for the good. This doesn't mean He isn't loving. As parents we love our children, but sometimes do "mean" things for their good that they don't understand until later.

 

While I hope I never know how that family feels and what they are going through I still thank God that He is in charge of me, and not me in charge of me, because I know for a fact that I'd screw it up somehow.

[Nestof3]

I would not propose to know what's going on in someone's heart, and I also do not propose to know what God's intentions/actions are. So, I would not make a statement like that.

 

Perhaps, though, she has in mind the many examples of God doing something like this to his chosen people in the Old Testament (David's son was taken from him by death because of his sin).

 

Again, I do not claim to know God's will, and I don't claim to know how he works in people's lives. I can barely say with confidence that God's will is ____________ in my own life.

 

Though I cannot speak for the mind of God and the will of God here, I do have a hard time believing that your friend has the inside scoop with God on some stranger's life. I agree she should have kept her focus on her own walk with God at that moment and only offerred compassion.

[marsha617]

Your friend may have worded her response the wrong way. God knew this horrible tragedy would take place at this point in time. Now God in all His mercy, love, and grace will get them through this time. He will do a work in them and cause them to have more faith in Him. Not sure He caused it to happen just to change them. Maybe this is more what she meant. :)

[Michelle in MO]

Your friend may have worded her response the wrong way. God knew this horrible tragedy would take place at this point in time. Now God in all His mercy, love, and grace will get them through this time. He will do a work in them and cause them to have more faith in Him. Not sure He caused it to happen just to change them. Maybe this is more what she meant. :)

 

I've heard her make similar statements in the past.

 

I agree with many of you that it is difficult to understand the purposes of God; there's an interplay many, many factors going on here. However, I think when someone loses a child or any other family member or friend, it's best to not delve into a lot of theological issues but to try to be an instrument of mercy and compassion at such a time.

[OnTheBrink]

I've heard her make similar statements in the past.

 

I agree with many of you that it is difficult to understand the purposes of God; there's an interplay many, many factors going on here. However, I think when someone loses a child or any other family member or friend, it's best to not delve into a lot of theological issues but to try to be an instrument of mercy and compassion at such a time.

 

 

I think you're right. There's plenty of time to discuss theology later, if ever. I think it would take years before I could discuss my child's tragic death theologically, if I ever could. That hurt is going to be there a long, long time. :(

[TXMomof4]

Events like this do help me remember something though. We (Christians in general) are incredibly short-sighted. I personally haven't lost a child, but the friends I talked about earlier.....she was like one of my own. I had loved and held her, fed her, known her since the day she was born. I miss her every day. But the reality is that she is in heaven. The reality is that she is blessed beyond all comprehension right now. On earth we can imagine no situation more horrible, but I truly believe it's because we can't imagine the true glory she is in now. There's a book called, Room of Marvels, that talks a little about this. It's fiction, but a truly amazing book.

 

I am in no way making light of their pain or devastation. Please don't think that. I just think that things like this can help us have a more "eternal" view. That is the hope we profess, right?

[DB in NJ]

*sigh*

 

It is comments such as these that give Christians and Christianity a bad name...

 

God did NOT *cause* this to happen. It was an accident. And while nothing surprises God, these things do grieve Him. Scripture says "precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints." But that doesn't mean that He causes or brings about all death. He is all-powerful and COULD have prevented it. To try to understand why he allowed it is beyond human comprehension. For your friend or ANY human to think they've got Him all figured out is....well, I can't think of anything nice so I'll refrain.

 

This reminds me of when someone told me (as an unbeliever) that God had caused my son to be born with no left hand because of my past sins. That He was "punishing" me for my sin. Now, as a believer myself, and someone who searches and studies and meditates on scripture, I see how very, VERY wrong she was. Your friend is wrong too, and she has a skewed view of scripture and a lack of understanding of the character, holiness, mercy, grace, and love of God.

[DIY-DY]

I mentioned on the phone to a friend this morning, one whom I know really likes Stephen Curtis Chapman, about the death of the musician's daughter. After some commisseration, her comment was: "God caused this to happen so that He could do a work in the heart of Stephen Curtis Chapman and his family."

 

I felt like my heart sunk, and I hurt even more for the family. I just cannot see God like this. God is both all-powerful but also full of love. I don't personally picture the nature and character of God to be someone who causes children to die to work on the character of someone's heart. Perhaps I misunderstood this friend, although I have heard her make similar comments about other situations.

 

Is to tell them, "I do not believe got puts us through things, but I do believe He will get us through them."

 

That distinction sums up my theological beliefs clearly, and politely shuts the person down from continuing with their line of reasoning (no matter how well-intended, it does not help a grieving person). It also reaffirms the hope of healing and recovery, to whatever extent possible, in that if we continue to lean on Him, He will bring about something good from anything that is awful. It doesn't negate the pain, it doesn't put God in an adversarial position with His children, and it seems, from what I've read of the Scriptures, to be the clearest path He takes. We make mistakes (either unintentional or intentional) and He comes in and helps us make it better, teaches us how to use our sorrow to comfort others, shows us how our pain can make us stronger and more empathetic. I can see how some may interpret that to mean God "did that to us" in order to bring about these good changes in us, but that doesn't jive with what I know of the Character of the Lord. The pain is on us; the healing is on Him.

 

That's my humble .02 on the matter.

Dy

[sweetbaby]

Blessed are those who mourn for they will be comforted.