ravinlunachick Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 instill a sense of patriotism in your children? Or is it only your job to present facts and history, as well as exposure to places and people, so that your child can eventually (hopefully?) develop patriotic feelings independently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melissel Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I consider it my job to express my feelings about my country and present its facts and history in as neutral a way as possible and let them decide for themselves, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Job? No. But dh and I are both patriotic so we model patriotism in many ways: honoring our troops, pledging our allegiance to the flag, speaking respectfully of our president whether we voted for him or not, praying for our country, going to Memorial Day services. We also model thoughtful debate and dialog about the political process, important political figures and issues that come up in the current news as well as thoughtful discussion of past events and figures and issues either in our schoolwork or as it pertains to our current situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Once Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) What an interesting question. My perspective is below but I did want to preface it with telling you I am Canadian and probably have a very Canadian opinion about this. It is a challenge for me though because I want them to know at love Canada even though we live outside the country. If it is valuable.....they will see the value on their own and feel it more strongly and with wisdom. If you push or direct things like this.....you will potentially instill a sense of blindness when sight is needed. Patriotism is different in every country and in my opinion is best left to the individual to find a balance. I do think it is good for parents to talk specifially about what they love about whatever country they feel patriotic towards. Edited June 20, 2011 by Once Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravinlunachick Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 No To both questions? Oh, and I said job where I really meant responsibility, but I was trying to keep the thread title short. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almondbutterandjelly Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Yes. That said, I don't think you have to manhandle them into loving their country. Just teach them, as part of their education, the Pledge, the National Anthem, US History, the "we hold these truths to be self-evident" part of the Declaration of Independence, the Preamble and Bill of Rights in the Constitution.... Attend fireworks on the 4th of July. Probably all the stuff you would do anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Once Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Job? No. But dh and I are both patriotic so we model patriotism in many ways: honoring our troops, pledging our allegiance to the flag, speaking respectfully of our president whether we voted for him or not, praying for our country, going to Memorial Day services. We also model thoughtful debate and dialog about the political process, important political figures and issues that come up in the current news as well as thoughtful discussion of past events and figures and issues either in our schoolwork or as it pertains to our current situation. Jean said it better than I did. :iagree: I would always want my kids to think clearly about whatever country they are patriotic towards. But as a parent, I will model things conciously and unconsciously that teach my kids how to do that. Off to ponder while the kids do TKD! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaxMom Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I guess the term patriotic makes me bristle. I want my kids to be kind and thoughtful human beings who respect other cultures/countries/the environment etc. I think they should be good citizens. But it's up to them if they feel patriotic or not... Yes, that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EthiopianFood Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I don't think this is any different than any other value in a person's home. How important is it to you? If it's important, you teach it. If it's up to the child, let it be up to the child. :shrug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Of course it's your job to help your dc love their country, whether you're homeschooling or not. Who else would do it? And why wouldn't someone do it? :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennis_b Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I see it more as an honor to have the opportunity to teach my children patriotism and a respect for our country. This country looks nothing like it did 50 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Heck no! Patriotism is un-Australian! :rofl: If we're talking about a sense of duty, then yes. For example, if my kids grow up to be apathetic voters, it won't be my fault. Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravinlunachick Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 That's interesting, WendyK. I tried to leave the question as open-ended as possible, so that posters from various countries could answer. I hadn't really thought much about it before, but *does* patriotism look different in different countries? I suppose it might. :strokes chin thoughtfully: RaeAnne, it is important to me that my children learn American history and culture, but in the end, I think it's up to them to develop a love for it (which is what patriotism means to me). Sort of like broccoli, lol. I can serve it up on their plates and make them take a bite, but it's up to them to finally decide it's not, in fact, deadly poison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I tend to think that when you show patriotism in the way you live, it rubs off on your children. I do talk about America's goodness, too (as well as our faults), but I think how we live makes the biggest impact on how our children live.... Ours is such a richly varied culture that it's a somewhat different thing for us, as Americans, than parents inspiring love of some other cultures in their children. And a lot of what we embrace as part of our "patriotism" is really colored by our individual family backgrounds. If you are the descendant of many generations of English/Scots/Irish, for instance, your observances of holidays and traditions here in America may look very different from those of Eastern European descent. We tend to embrace a lot of these sorts of differences as regional in nature, because immigrants once upon a time tended to settle in pocket areas of the U.S. And we still see this in many areas as interesting, unique regional quirks - but those things help to make up how we view and celebrate our country as a whole, too.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoforjoy Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 instill a sense of patriotism in your children? No. Or is it only your job to present facts and history, as well as exposure to places and people, so that your child can eventually (hopefully?) develop patriotic feelings independently? I'm not invested in whether my children are patriotic or not. It's important to me that they are good citizens, but honestly I don't really get patriotism and I'd be fine with them being unpatriotic. For me, I'm just not big into group identity. As a kid, I never got school spirit; it made no sense to me why I should be excited about or proud of my school, just because I happened to live in that district. I've never understood getting into sports teams. I tend to shy away from clubs. I can't even bring myself to join a homeschooling co-op or support group, because I don't feel a strong sense of group identity as a homeschooler. I don't think I'm particularly individualistic, but I prefer to form connections based on shared values/shared experiences/shared interests than shared circumstances, which just don't seem meaningful to me. Patriotism, to me, is a pride in one's country because it's the country you live in. You start off assuming that, because you live there, it's good, and then you find reasons to bolster that. I'd prefer to start from the assumption that my nation is no better than any other, and then, if there are specific things my country has done to be proud of, be proud of those specific things. I'd like my children to take pride in the things our nation has done that are worthy of being proud of, and to be thoughtful and honest about the things we've done that we shouldn't be proud of. I don't want them to begin with the assumption that we're somehow a "good" country (I don't think there's any such thing) and fit history into that framework. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 But does your husband have no love of his mother country? I tend to think that everyone has fond memories of the country that nurtured them, and rightly so. And here, we have been so privileged over and above so much of the rest of the world that I hope it makes us thankful for what we have, grateful for the country that made that possible for us; and that it instills a desire in us to help others in the world who do not have so much.... So I hope that being "patriotic" means that we are good citizens not just of our neighborhood, city, state, or even country - but of the world.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaxMom Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 No. I'm not invested in whether my children are patriotic or not. It's important to me that they are good citizens, but honestly I don't really get patriotism and I'd be fine with them being unpatriotic. For me, I'm just not big into group identity. As a kid, I never got school spirit; it made no sense to me why I should be excited about or proud of my school, just because I happened to live in that district. I've never understood getting into sports teams. I tend to shy away from clubs. I can't even bring myself to join a homeschooling co-op or support group, because I don't feel a strong sense of group identity as a homeschooler. I don't think I'm particularly individualistic, but I prefer to form connections based on shared values/shared experiences/shared interests than shared circumstances, which just don't seem meaningful to me. Patriotism, to me, is a pride in one's country because it's the country you live in. You start off assuming that, because you live there, it's good, and then you find reasons to bolster that. I'd prefer to start from the assumption that my nation is no better than any other, and then, if there are specific things my country has done to be proud of, be proud of those specific things. I'd like my children to take pride in the things our nation has done that are worthy of being proud of, and to be thoughtful and honest about the things we've done that we shouldn't be proud of. I don't want them to begin with the assumption that we're somehow a "good" country (I don't think there's any such thing) and fit history into that framework. And, yes, that, too. Particularly the bolded parts. Maybe I'm a closet Australian. Maybe it's the Basque via Quebec heritage and I just come from a long line of disgruntled people looking to secede. I just don't get the rah-rah, go us, look at how awesome we are thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I hadn't really thought much about it before, but *does* patriotism look different in different countries? I suppose it might. :strokes chin thoughtfully: My oath it does! :lol: Maybe I'm a closet Australian. :rofl: Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I guess the term patriotic makes me bristle. I want my kids to be kind and thoughtful human beings who respect other cultures/countries/the environment etc. I think they should be good citizens. But it's up to them if they feel patriotic or not. Yes, exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keptwoman Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Heck no! Patriotism is un-Australian! :rofl:Rosie What cupboard have you been hiding in each Australia Day?? Kids all over with flags on their clothing and carrying them aloft, flags flying from cars, citizenship ceremonies, parades, FIREWORKS!! Let me tell you though, I say this with admiration. NZ could do with a little more pride and a little less cringing about itself. Then there are the bumper stickers with "love it or leave" printed over the outline of Australia, don't even get me started on that stupid bit of inanity. Anyway, No. I do not want to install patriotism into my children. I want them to value the luck they have in being born into a country where they are most likely to have enough to eat and a roof over their head, where they are free and have the right to many things, including healthcare ;). I want them to understand that so many are not so lucky. I want them to care for our planet and fight for the government to do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspasia Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Anyway, No. I do not want to install patriotism into my children. I want them to value the luck they have in being born into a country where they are most likely to have enough to eat and a roof over their head, where they are free and have the right to many things, including healthcare ;). I want them to understand that so many are not so lucky. I want them to care for our planet and fight for the government to do the same. Well said. I am personally not a fan of patriotism. Pride in one's country is strange to me. I agree to an extent with pp who doesn't care for group pride--it is frightening how much violence grows out of group pride and the automatic hatred or demonization of "the other" that comes with it. But I do think having a community, whether that be through clubs or homeschool groups or whatever, is very healthy for individuals and society at large. I can never say that I'm "proud" to be an American. To me, that kind of thinking is what divides us from other people. Am I grateful to be an American? Abso-freakin-lutely! And I want my kids to be grateful that they live in a stable country where women are treated humanely and fairly, where laws (and a generally civilized culture) protect them from some of the gross injustices daily perpetrated on so many people throughout the world. I want them to be responsible, thoughtful, contributing citizens of whatever country they live in (which will likely be the United States). But I don't actually want them to feel proud about it because I find patriotism divisive. So, to answer the question more directly, I obviously don't think it is a parent's responsibility to teach patriotism. I do think it's a parent's responsibility to expose their children to history and "facts" (which are sketchy in history) and let them make their own decisions about patriotism and everything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakerks Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I'm guessing it's like many other values in that it would be "more caught than taught." If it's important to the parents, it's probably going to be obvious to the children, with or without a lot of intentional teaching about it. In my case, I have very clear and distinct memories of my father being in the Air Force. I recall riding in the car with him on base, and at 5 pm, when the flag was lowered, he would pull over, get out, and stand saluting. It definitely made an impression on me. In my opinion, it's sort of the converse of "Do as I say, not as I do." If patriotic behavior (or any other for that matter) is modeled, children may wind up copying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) instill a sense of patriotism in your children? Or is it only your job to present facts and history, as well as exposure to places and people, so that your child can eventually (hopefully?) develop patriotic feelings independently? What you are asking is do I feel it is my job to raise my children to love their nation, to revere her and in the final judgment to be willing to die for her? Do I think it is my job to raise honorable loyal citizens? Absolutely! Will I teach them about the darker episodes of our nation? Of course. Patriotism includes knowing one's history and knowing when one's nation has not reached her full potential, but in knowing all this still loving the nation more because her people strive to be better. I am lucky, in a sense, as an immigrant. Having lived all over the world and seen scores of nations I can state with absolutely no equivocation that my nation is the greatest on this planet. She offers hope and freedom on a level not seen anywhere else. I do not simply believe this, I know this and my children will be raised with the same knowledge. Were I to raise children who did not stand for the anthem, who did not thank our servicemen, who did not love this nation then I would have failed as a Father. I bristle when people denigrate this nation, I bristle when they denigrate the value of patriotism to this nation. We are at war and those who decry the value of those beliefs that enable our best to go to hot and sandy places and, if necessary, lay down their lives are, in my estimation, incomplete at best and something very different at worst. Edited June 20, 2011 by pqr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 instill a sense of patriotism in your children? Or is it only your job to present facts and history, as well as exposure to places and people, so that your child can eventually (hopefully?) develop patriotic feelings independently? No. . I raise my children to be law abiding citizens - that's my job. They will follow the laws of the country they live in and be productive citizens which are an asset to society. But "patriotism", what would that mean? Add to that that we are immigrants, which further complicates the issue. Btw, I am scared by hearing people claim their country is "the greatest on the planet". This has happened before, elsewhere, and it has ended very badly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 But "patriotism", what would that mean? Add to that that we are immigrants, which further complicates the issue. Speaking as a fellow immigrant this does not complicate the issue, it simplifies it. If you immigrate to a nation which opens her arms to you, which gives you security and opportunity then you OWE her loyalty and love. Yes you OWE her patriotism. Nothing complicated there. If you are unwilling to give that then why bother to come? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I, too, am an immigrant. I have always observed that Americans have a very strong sense of "patriotism." I don't see it as something negative - if you are proud of the good things and know there is always room for improvement. I know what you are referring to and I think it is good to remember how all this started and what catalysts were in place to enable the emergence of such a political machinery. Wanting to protect one's country and feeling a sense of solidarity with one's country seem different to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virg Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I do think it is my job. We are very patriotic and I see patriotism as being part of our belief system and values, all of which I pass on to my children. In the end of course it is their decision but just like "hitting girls is wrong" or our faith, I believe it is my job to instill in my children. *Disclaimer* I believe that every family has their own values and they might not feel like it is their job to pass it along. :) I don't want to offend anyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 instill a sense of patriotism in your children? Or is it only your job to present facts and history, as well as exposure to places and people, so that your child can eventually (hopefully?) develop patriotic feelings independently? You present the question as if you think parents are (or should be) presenting some sort of indoctrination program to their children. Your question also seems to assume that if you present your child with the facts of history patriotism might not develop without said indoctrination. Job? No. But dh and I are both patriotic so we model patriotism in many ways: honoring our troops, pledging our allegiance to the flag, speaking respectfully of our president whether we voted for him or not, praying for our country, going to Memorial Day services. We also model thoughtful debate and dialog about the political process, important political figures and issues that come up in the current news as well as thoughtful discussion of past events and figures and issues either in our schoolwork or as it pertains to our current situation. Exactly-nothing in the definition of patriotism requires that it be blind or ignorant. One can love one's country and still be well informed about their country. I guess the term patriotic makes me bristle. I want my kids to be kind and thoughtful human beings who respect other cultures/countries/the environment etc. I think they should be good citizens. But it's up to them if they feel patriotic or not. My husband is not a citizen of the US so this influences the vibe in our home as well. Nothing about being patriotic requires one to be less than kind or thoughtful human beings nor is it mutually exclusive with showing respect for other cultures, countries or the environment. Being patriotic isn't about giving up one's culture, being blind to your nation's faults, or any other such nonsense. It is simply a love and respect for your country. Something best taught to children by example and discussion not by forced indoctrination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravinlunachick Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 JumpedInto...., I apologize if that seems like my tone. I realize I am a newbie around here, so you'll have to take me at my word when I say that I am FAR from believing that indoctrination is necessary! Heck, I don't even like for kids to say the Pledge of Allegiance until they are old enough to understand what they are saying, and mean it as well. ETA: I also believe strongly that this is an individual preference, and I am not passing judgment on any side of the argument. I just like to hear and explore various points of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Robyn Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 nope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skadi Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 No. We come from a point of view that is quite close to Henry David Thoreau's take on citizenship. First of all, we believe you can only be proud of something that you, yourself, accomplished. A person has no control over what country they were born in, and it is something so inherent to circumstance that we just don't get the "pride" connection (similarly, we also don't encourage a mentality of being "proud" of one's gender, sexual orientation, or what have you). We feel the ties between injustice and jingoism is not coincidental, and we feel it is our duty to educate our children about the dangers associated with national pride. It is very difficult to quantify the tangible benefits of patriotism, but the perils stand heavy and vast before us. To get a little more succinct, my husband and I feel that patriotism is a tool of the state to mollify its citizenry. Patriotism that springs up from the public may or may not be prudent, but patriotism that traces its origin back to the government is always nefarious. Governments need patriotism to wage needless wars, imprison dissenters, ban speech, you name it. Many have spoken here of a desire to teach their children to follow the law. If anything, we teach the opposite. To return to Thoreau, we do not wish to teach our children to simply follow the laws as written -- if there is an unjust law, not only are you right to disobey it, but you should feel compelled to do so. If we raise our children as patriots, it will be in the same revolutionary spirit of the Founding Fathers. Too often patriotism these days takes the form of supercilious obedience to the state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 If it is blindingly obvious that one's country of origin is great, then wouldn't a thorough study of its history make the greatness apparent to your children? I would want my children to be honest, considerate, and so forth, but I think it's a bit presumptuous of me to tell them what to feel or how they must interpret things. Skadi - I found the section by Charlotte Mason about logic (vol 6 ch 9) very interesting: A due recognition of the function of reason should be an enormous help to us all in days when the air is full of fallacies, and when our personal modesty, that becoming respect for other people which is proper to well-ordered natures whether young or old, makes us willing to accept conclusions duly supported by public opinion or by those whose opinions we value. Nevertheless, it is something to recognise that probably no wrong thing has ever been done or said, no crime committed, but has been justified to the perpetrator by arguments coming to him involuntarily and produced with cumulative force by his own reason....For ourselves and our children it is enough to know that reason will put a good face on any matter we propose; and, that we can prove ourselves to be in the right is no justification for there is absolutely no theory we may receive, no action we may contemplate, which our reason will not affirm. Of course we know by many infallible proofs that Bacon wrote Shakespeare, and an ingenious person has worked out a chain of arguments proving that Dr. Johnson wrote the Bible! Why not? For a nation of logical thinkers, the French made an extraordinary faux-pas when they elected the Goddess of Reason to divine honours. But, indeed, perhaps they did it because they are a logical nation; for logic gives us the very formula of reason, and that which is logically proved is not necessarily right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Patriotism, to me, is a pride in one's country because it's the country you live in. You start off assuming that, because you live there, it's good, and then you find reasons to bolster that. I'd prefer to start from the assumption that my nation is no better than any other, and then, if there are specific things my country has done to be proud of, be proud of those specific things. I'd like my children to take pride in the things our nation has done that are worthy of being proud of, and to be thoughtful and honest about the things we've done that we shouldn't be proud of. I don't want them to begin with the assumption that we're somehow a "good" country (I don't think there's any such thing) and fit history into that framework. Very well put. I completely agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I consider it my job to express my feelings about my country and present its facts and history in as neutral a way as possible and let them decide for themselves, IMO. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Absolutely not. I say this as an immigrant, though my answer would be the same were I in the country of my birth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 It is my responsibility to teach my children to value freedom and sacrifice. It depends on the country whether that looks like patriotism or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Speaking as a fellow immigrant this does not complicate the issue, it simplifies it. If you immigrate to a nation which opens her arms to you, which gives you security and opportunity then you OWE her loyalty and love. Yes you OWE her patriotism. Nothing complicated there. If you are unwilling to give that then why bother to come? I disagree. It IS complicated. How much loyalty do I owe my country of origin? Where I was raised, educated for free, given security and opportunities as well without which I would not have been able to move to the US? Where I have family ties, where my aging parents and in-laws live we have to look after? I did not come to the US because this is the greatest country on Earth - I came for a the specific reason that DH accepted a job here. I do not consider this a handout and owe nothing more than doing diligent work, abiding the law, raising my children to be productive members of society. If you come from a country that treated you badly and deprived you of security, civil rights, opportunities, then I guess you may not owe this country anything. If, however, your native country did treat you well and cared for you, the loyalties are at best divided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I disagree. It IS complicated. How much loyalty do I owe my country of origin? None! If you took the same oath that I did, you specifically gave your word that you would not give any loyalty to your country of origin. When I gave my oath I meant every word so I have NO fidelity to my country of origin. I am an American, nothing else. To offer any loyalty to my country of origin would make me a liar of the worst sort. "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Oh and let me further add there is nothing "arm opening" about it. Sure, it's all fine once you pay the ridiculous fees, endure the intrusion, pee in a cup, get your shots (like some sort of rabid animal), and wait wait wait for the paperwork. Oh goody. :glare: Yep. 4 pounds of paperwork, 10k in fees (lawyer and government), 4 years of waiting. And don't forget the blood draw and HIV test. It did not exactly feel welcoming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) Oh and let me further add there is nothing "arm opening" about it. Sure, it's all fine once you pay the ridiculous fees, endure the intrusion, pee in a cup, get your shots (like some sort of rabid animal), and wait wait wait for the paperwork. Oh goody. :glare: There are millions who would gladly trade places with you and nobody made you come. Yes I too wnet through the same paperwork, a miniscule price to pay. I did it gladly and would never think to complain. It was the cost of coming to the freeest nation on Earth. I can not imagine complaining about paperwork given the reward at the end. Edited June 21, 2011 by pqr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 If you took the same oath that I did, you specifically gave your word that you would not give any loyalty to your country of origin. When I gave my oath I meant every word so I have NO fidelity to my country of origin. I am an American, nothing else. To offer any loyalty to my country of origin would make me a liar of the worst sort. I did not take any oath and I am not an American citizen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) As a teacher, it's your job to present facts only, imo (though obviously schools with their "good citizenship" stuff would disagree). As a parent, it is your job to present your values in which case, the answer to the original question is personal. If your value is to inculcate your beliefs into your children, then you would do so. If your belief is to present facts to allow your children to form their own opinions, then you would do that. For us personally: We try to instill our beliefs as well as present the beliefs of other people. I feel the latter is important; but I definitely hope they will latch on to certain beliefs and patriotism is not one of those. Edited June 21, 2011 by 2J5M9K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I did not take any oath and I am not an American citizen. Then patriotism to the USA anyway, would not apply to you. Patriotism applies to the country of your citizenship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 There are millions who would gladly trade places with you and nobody made you come. pqr, would you mind sharing where you are from originally? Btw, what do you do in Europe - are you military? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I did not take any oath and I am not an American citizen. Then it is not complicated I would expect you to be loyal to your nation until such a time as you make the decision to to become an American and then your loyalty must come with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Then patriotism to the USA anyway, would not apply to you. Patriotism applies to the country of your citizenship. yes, technically - but that is the complicated part, because, of course, I DO feel ties to the US as well. So, while I am the citizen of another country, I live and work in the US - and sometimes it is really hard straddling this divide. My kids are not American citizens either, but they grow up here. So, that's why I don't find this simple at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BabyBre Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 It's every parent's job to pass on their value system to their children, and that may include patriotism. If it's important to you, you should most definitely make a point of instilling it in your children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 What cupboard have you been hiding in each Australia Day??Kids all over with flags on their clothing and carrying them aloft, flags flying from cars, citizenship ceremonies, parades, FIREWORKS!! Whatev... :tongue_smilie: That's my little boy's birthday. I have better things to do on Australia Day than observe my fellow citizens doing patriotism. I have noted the growth of it over the past few years but haven't observed any reasons for it that I'd be glad to sign up to. Personally, I think that date keeps us in a rut and I'd like to see it changed to whatever the day was when the White Australia policy was finally completely canned. It was disassembled in stages so I can't figure out when it was. Rosie- obviously patriotic, if you don't expect patriotism to look like something else. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I'm a citizen since I was born here. My kids are citizens in two countries simply by being born to 2 people who happen to be citizens in two different countries. Why is the "patriotism" automatic? That's even harder than our situation. What on Earth should patriotism mean for your kids??? I guess if it means considering the own nation the geratest on earth, they have no chance... so maybe some redefinition is in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) pqr, would you mind sharing where you are from originally? Not a very nice place, but I keep the rest to myself else I offend too many people. (and we all know how good some feel I am at offending people :-) Edited June 21, 2011 by pqr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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