Medical care in the US vs other countries

[JumpyTheFrog]

Even the rescue inhaler, albuterol, went from being around $5 a month, to around $50, because the dispenser is new and patented.

 

I think our country needs to seriously reform patent law. I wouldn't be surprised if you learned that the dispenser wasn't any better than the old one and was just a ploy to jack up prices. Getting drugs and equipment approved by the FDA is also very expensive, and I wonder if addressing the cost is possible.

 

 

In order to help them get some of their money back, myself and other friends and family are going in tomorrow to donate blood to the blood bank.

 

Do donors get paid to donate blood?

 

Patients scream about poor care or no access, but won't take a walk or put the doughnut down. Based on what I've seen, our problem isn't the healthcare. Our problem is the culture.

 

I know that some chronic health problems can lead to obesity. I also think that some people with obesity could afford to take better care of themselves (eat right, exercise, etc) but don't bother. Some people truly don't seem to care about nutrition and aren't interested in learning.

 

Our culture has so many unhealthy habits. If we just copied another country's universal health care system, would it work as well here? I suspect we walk/exercise less and eat more processed "food" than most countries. Americans eat out very often. Do Europeans eat more home cooked meals? Do their restaurants use better quality food? What about food served in schools?

 

Also, do other Western countries have doctors that are largely trained in how to push drugs? Our doctors don't generally know much about nutrition or the use of vitamins, minerals, herbs, and other supplements. Now, not all conditions can be treated this way, but it would be nice if all doctors knew which ones might be helped by these cheaper solutions.

 

I don't see how having universal health care in our country with doctors and patients keeping the same lifestyles and expecting pills to fix everything is going to save money. I think it could only work with a major lifestyle overhaul for many people

 

 

DH had to go back to the doctor a few weeks ago (in the U.S.) for some tests. His doctor was picking and choosing which tests to do, depending on the price! First of all, I don't think the doctor should even know whether or not we have insurance.

 

 

Was this doctor picking more expensive tests because of the insurance? I use Samaritan Ministries, so I technically don't have health insurance. My previous doctor was willing to prioritize and skip some tests because she knew I would have to pay cash. If I'd had insurance, she would've run more that probably would've been a waste of money. I was grateful for her thoughtfulness. So many doctors are unaware of test prices and select a lot of tests "just in case," as if they are all free to get.

 

It *is* strange. I've mentioned to a few people the lower death rates surrounding births in Europe and it's like a personal affront almost that medical care in America isn't the top in the world in some areas.

 

We have a lot of pride (the negative type) in this country. So many people think America has to be the best at everything! We're the smartest! We have the best military! Etc! I think we as a nation could use a big dose of humility. Without it, how can we learn from other countries about medical care or any other issue?

 

Another issue I wonder about is how other countries handle care for the elderly. I've heard (never verified it) that something like 50% of the money spent on medical bills in a person's life here is spent during their last week or month. If that is in fact true, then it leads to me to wonder how often hospitals are pushing expensive treatments that only lengthen life by a week or two.

[Rivka]

Martha, you and stripe are correct. The U.S. has some of the most advanced medical science and technology in the world. However, only a shrinking minority are actually able to access it. It's not even about insured vs. uninsured; there is the larger problem of millions of Americans being underinsured. Private insurance companies ration surgeries, procedures, medicine, medical equipment, and access to health care providers and hospitals.

 

According to a 2009 Harvard study, some 45,000 Americans die annually due to lack of insurance coverage. This number spans all age groups, not just adults.

 

Indicators such as neonatal mortality, infant mortality, maternal mortality, average life span, and so forth, have shown the United States lagging further and further behind other western, post-industrialized, wealthy countries for decades. Though the US spends more per person on health care than any other country in the world, the results do not show a return equitable to the investment in any of the above categories. This is due to the huge disparities in quality and access to health care in our country.

 

:iagree: Aelwydd, I'm loving your posts in this thread.

[Impish]

Canada isn't that different in lifestyle than the US, and have universal healthcare. Its still less for us via taxes than I've heard of ppl paying for their insurance AND has no copays, etc.

[Ohdanigirl]

 

Do donors get paid to donate blood?

 

 

 

No. Blood banks give you the option of having donors give blood to bring down your cost, but only a certain amount. I seem to recall that when you have a child at certain hospitals you must get two blood donors before they release the papers needed to register your child. I can't remember for certain, so I would have to double check.

 

Also, you can't just have someone come in with your blood type when you are in need. It has to go to the bank. I am the same blood type of the lady in my original post, but that was of no help to her when she was near death. Not sure how that works else where though.

 

 

ETA: Although, I did not start this thread to begin a debate, I am finding it very informative.

Danielle

[cathmom]

Canada isn't that different in lifestyle than the US, and have universal healthcare. Its still less for us via taxes than I've heard of ppl paying for their insurance AND has no copays, etc.

 

I have OFTEN said that I would be happy to take the money we spend per month on private insurance (over 10% of our income, and we are just over the poverty level) and put it towards coverage for everyone. And that's just what we pay for our insurance. I've already spent over $2000 on medical care just for myself this year ON TOP OF the insurance!

[sewingmama]

Here in Australia public hospitals are free and the care is excellent. They have the latest high tech equipment- often more than the private hospitals- and the doctors and nurses work long shifts but are amazing. Sometimes there is overcrowding, and mistakes happen in hospitals everywhere. But I feel confident in hospitals here.

 

It is all relative. I would *expect* health care to be better in the U.S. than in Mexico (and its a wonderful thing to acknowledge and appreciate that), but am always really surprised at many American's unwillingness to admit, even though they haven't directly experienced it, that health care in other parts of the world surpasses theirs.

 

Hmmm - you must be living in the OTHER Australia because that hasn't been the experience of the one I live in:tongue_smilie:

 

I find here that health care is free or affordable to those who are on govt. welfare and qualify for concessions and those who can afford private health insurance. Since we don't qualify for either end we are going broke keeping up with our medical expenses. When I had to have a battery of tests for a serious illness that came up I had to pay for each and every one. Sure $500 for an MRI is a lot cheaper then what you pay in the USA but it's not free.

 

When my daughter was born the nursing staff were terribly incompetent and rude. The hospital knew I had grounds to sue them due to things that they did to me out of stupidity that the kept sending their legal department to chat to me every day I was there - I didn't even threaten to sue myself -they were freaked out that I would.:glare:

 

My DH was recently taken to hospital from his workplace via ambulance. The ospital is literally two streets away from where he works. We got a bill in the mail for almost $2000.

 

Now we hem and haw deciding whether to visit the doctor - after all there is no point seeing them if you can't afford the medication (really, you want $60 for a sinus nasal spray, I don't think so).

 

It is cheaper here - but the standard of care is debatable. The most competent doctor I ever had here was one that was born and trained in Canada. Every other doctor/nurse I've met here seems to have the attitude "She'll be right mate" and then basically do nothing to help you.

[keptwoman]

Ambulance insurance in Australia is less than $200 a year, to me that is an expense that is not negotiable.

 

Our doctor is bulk billed (aka I pay nothing, it's billed direct to the govt) but I will conceed that prescription costs are high.

 

I have had excellent care when I have needed it urgently, and also when I have been able to wait for non-urgent procedures. I do find the costs of diagnostic tests frustrating because you can't claim it on insurance. I have horrible headaches at the moment in one particular spot and I'm capitulating and going to the doctor this week, knowing that I will end up being referred for diagnostic procedures I can ill afford before I get to see a specialist. However, I find specialist care both pubic and private excellent and affordable with the medicare rebate.

 

Overall, the Aussie system has it's issues, but I think it ROCKS!

[Melissa in Australia]

Hmmm - you must be living in the OTHER Australia because that hasn't been the experience of the one I live in:tongue_smilie:

 

I find here that health care is free or affordable to those who are on govt. welfare and qualify for concessions and those who can afford private health insurance. Since we don't qualify for either end we are going broke keeping up with our medical expenses. When I had to have a battery of tests for a serious illness that came up I had to pay for each and every one. Sure $500 for an MRI is a lot cheaper then what you pay in the USA but it's not free.

 

My DH was recently taken to hospital from his workplace via ambulance. The ospital is literally two streets away from where he works. We got a bill in the mail for almost $2000.

.

 

You must be living in a different Australia than me.

I don't think Ambulance is covered by medicare in any country. I don't actually know anyone who doesn't pay the less than $200 a year for ambulance coverage.

I happen to be one of the many people in Australia on a low income and qualify for a concession, so I have never had to pay for a single test that I have had EVER. I have had only excellent treatment.

[Aggie]

I find here that health care is free or affordable to those who are on govt. welfare and qualify for concessions and those who can afford private health insurance. Since we don't qualify for either end we are going broke keeping up with our medical expenses. When I had to have a battery of tests for a serious illness that came up I had to pay for each and every one. Sure $500 for an MRI is a lot cheaper then what you pay in the USA but it's not free.

 

When my daughter was born the nursing staff were terribly incompetent and rude. The hospital knew I had grounds to sue them due to things that they did to me out of stupidity that the kept sending their legal department to chat to me every day I was there - I didn't even threaten to sue myself -they were freaked out that I would.:glare:

 

 

Now we hem and haw deciding whether to visit the doctor - after all there is no point seeing them if you can't afford the medication (really, you want $60 for a sinus nasal spray, I don't think so).

 

It is cheaper here - but the standard of care is debatable. The most competent doctor I ever had here was one that was born and trained in Canada. Every other doctor/nurse I've met here seems to have the attitude "She'll be right mate" and then basically do nothing to help you.

 

Our doctor is bulk billed (aka I pay nothing, it's billed direct to the govt) but I will conceed that prescription costs are high.

 

I have had excellent care when I have needed it urgently, and also when I have been able to wait for non-urgent procedures. I do find the costs of diagnostic tests frustrating because you can't claim it on insurance. I have horrible headaches at the moment in one particular spot and I'm capitulating and going to the doctor this week, knowing that I will end up being referred for diagnostic procedures I can ill afford before I get to see a specialist. However, I find specialist care both pubic and private excellent and affordable with the medicare rebate.

 

Overall, the Aussie system has it's issues, but I think it ROCKS!

 

I happen to be one of the many people in Australia on a low income and qualify for a concession, so I have never had to pay for a single test that I have had EVER. I have had only excellent treatment.

 

I've never heard this before about Australian medicine.

 

I have a few questions....

 

Low income or those on welfare DON'T have to pay for diagnostic tests?

 

Middle/high income either pay out of pocket or with private insurance for diagnostic tests? How much is private insurance? Is it offered by employers?

 

Is this for ALL testing? Cancer screening? Pap smears? Mammograms? MRI's? CT scans?

 

Prescriptions AREN'T covered? Who pays for chemo? Heart or diabetic drugs? Patients or the gov't?

 

Why are your prescription costs so high? In the US, it's usually attributed to pharma companies making huge profits. Same for y'all?

 

I wonder if US MD's could pass the Aussie med boards and the other way around?

 

Thanks for any help answering these!

[Aggie]

Are immunizations covered for *everyone*? Are they mandatory?

[creekland]

After taking time this morning to read all 7 pages, I've come to the conclusion there are pros and cons everywhere. ;)

 

I'm also glad I live in an area where even those (low income) without insurance can have a very premie baby and not have to pay a dime (baby is doing well). Her parents were even invited to stay in the hospital with her when they could.

 

There's a boy in our school receiving cancer treatments and I KNOW his mother can't pay. She raves about the hospital staff. Her son is unlikely to live.

 

Our (personal) ambulance subscription service costs us $60/year.

 

We're another family who has chosen to go with Samaritan's Ministries and have been very satisfied with what we've gotten for $320/month (2 claims over the years).

 

A relative of mine who is a Canadian maritime resident chose to come to the US for minor surgery she would have had to wait a long time for in Canada. Not only did they do it quickly here, it was done with a more modern method. My Dad's insurance paid. They paid nothing.

 

I will never say the US is perfect, but right now I feel fortunate to be living where we do.

 

For others in this country or anywhere on the planet where people are struggling with health issues... :grouphug: I wish there were a way to make it perfect for everyone, but I KNOW perfection is unobtainable. (I do wish it could be better though.)

[keptwoman]

You must be living in a different Australia than me.

I don't think Ambulance is covered by medicare in any country. I don't actually know anyone who doesn't pay the less than $200 a year for ambulance coverage.

I happen to be one of the many people in Australia on a low income and qualify for a concession, so I have never had to pay for a single test that I have had EVER. I have had only excellent treatment.

It is not lucky to be on a low income of course, but it IS lucky to avoid paying for diagnostics.

Last year I had rumbly kidney stones and a partially blocked kidney, because it was non-urgent, i.e I wasn't in A&E on morphine, it cost me about $800 out of pocket in ultrasounds and CT scans.

I'm back under the public system now, and seeing a renal specialist regularly so in future it will all be done in the public hospital for free.

 

I'm NOT moaning! I still think our system is flipping fantastic, but it was a stretch at the time and I know that this headache is going to cost us money we don't have.

 

I've never heard this before about Australian medicine.

 

I have a few questions....

 

Low income or those on welfare DON'T have to pay for diagnostic tests?

I don't know, we are not on a low income.

 

Middle/high income either pay out of pocket or with private insurance for diagnostic tests? How much is private insurance? Is it offered by employers?

You pay out of pocket, the majority of the testing cost is reimbursed by Medicare, but it can still cost a few hundred if you need a lot of tests (as per my kidney stones last year.

Insurance does not cover this as it's covered by Medicare. If one was in hospital during the diagnostic tests they would either be free in the public hospital, or covered under insurance.

 

Our private insurance is $200/month. About $150 of that is "hospital cover" which covers admission and all things related to admission. The rest is "extras" which covers dental, optical, physio, SLT, psych, prescriptions, ambulance etc. There are different types and levels of cover, we are on one of the lowest hospital but one of the highest extras. Some employers offer insurance, many don't. Age is locked in at 30 for life if you have hospital constantly from age 30. At age 60? the premiums begin to go down. My absolute favourite bit is that ALL pre-existing conditions are covered after a year, isn't that brilliant!! No pre-existing exclusions!! Insurance is priced based on whether you are a couple, single, family or family with older kids (up to 25 but still financially supported) insurance cost is not related to employer, medical history etc. And insurance is not essential, the public system is very good. Insurance gives the peace of mind of very quick treatment for a serious condition, for instance if one had cancer one could be seen within days going private and it might take a week to a month going public.

 

Is this for ALL testing? Cancer screening? Pap smears? Mammograms? MRI's? CT scans?

Generally pap smears and other pathology is "bulk billed" i.e the bill goes straight to Govt. Radiology type screening (if you are not on a low income) is paid out of pocket and partially reimbursed by govt, or free if it's done in a public hospital under public specialist. See my example above for kidney stones as an example. When I had urgent kidney stones and ended up in ER, all tests were free, and then I had lithotripsy which was also free on the public system, I had to wait a few months but if it had become urgent due to obstruction, it would have been done immediately.

I have a regular colonoscopy as screening (every few years) and the cost is about $400.

Some tests are cheaper or bulk billed and it also depends on which provider you choose, DS's broken arm was bulk billed including all xrays even though it was through a clinic not a hospital. I have had mammograms for free, when I found a lump, and then follow up ultrasounds too. I don't know exactly how the costings work to be honest.

 

Prescriptions AREN'T covered? Who pays for chemo? Heart or diabetic drugs? Patients or the gov't?

Prescription costs are regulated and negotiated by the government, for the most part I find them reasonable. For instance, antibiotids for a UTI or ear infection might cost $10-15, the Mirena contraceptive device is $40. But we don't have any major ongoing health issues that use lots of prescriptions, so I don't know all the ins and outs. Our insurance does reimburse us, but I've never bothered claiming because the amounts are always small. Chemo would be covered as it would be given as an inpatient so it would be either free on the public system or covered by insurance in the private system. Heart or diabetic drugs are paid for by the patient, but after a threshhold of about $1200? per family, there is some kind of tax break, I don't know the details as we have never hit the thresh-hold. I think there is also some kind of high user type card.

 

Why are your prescription costs so high? In the US, it's usually attributed to pharma companies making huge profits. Same for y'all?

I don't find them high, particularly when it costs nothing to see the doctor to get the prescription. But that is my experience. In saying that I conceeded they were high, I have in mind friends whose children need regular medication and they are struggling with the cost, having said that, they are not Australian citizens and if they were they'd be able to get a card which would lower the cost substantially.

 

I wonder if US MD's could pass the Aussie med boards and the other way around?

I know that doctors go back and forward in both directions, there may be some study either way to pass the relevant boards, but the qualifications are acceptable.

 

Thanks for any help answering these!

 

Are immunizations covered for *everyone*? Are they mandatory?

Yes they are covered, well the Well Child ones are. If I was to get the flu vax I think it would cost. No, they are not mandatory, very much encouraged but not mandatory.

Edited May 29, 2011 by keptwoman

[TeacherZee]

You must be living in a different Australia than me.

I don't think Ambulance is covered by medicare in any country. I don't actually know anyone who doesn't pay the less than $200 a year for ambulance coverage.

I happen to be one of the many people in Australia on a low income and qualify for a concession, so I have never had to pay for a single test that I have had EVER. I have had only excellent treatment.

 

It is in Sweden.

 

Hospital care is 80SEK (12USD) per day but not the day you are discharged.

 

The following is included in what is called Högkostnadskyddet. This is the cap of what you have to pay in a 12 month period. The cap is set at 144USD.

 

Doctors visits for people over 18 is 22USD

Visit with the nurse 8USD

Physical therapist/therapist 16USD

X-ray 16USD

 

Labs are free if ordered by a doctor

 

Papsmear/breast exam 16USD each (not covered by the cap)

 

Children under 18 get free medical care no matter what the family's income.

 

Pre- and post-natal care is free.

 

I pay 32% in income tax and I don't struggle financially.

 

ETA: Immunizations are free for children and others if they are deemed necessary. They are NOT mandatory. Those over 65 and those with certain health conditions (such as asthma and heart disease) get free flu jabs every year.

 

ETA2: Prescriptions are discounted and also have a cap. I am not sure what either of them are. Pharmacists are supposed to go with the cheapest option for the drug unless otherwise stated by the doctor.

Edited May 29, 2011 by TeacherZee
Add information

[Laura Corin]

I don't think Ambulance is covered by medicare in any country.

 

There are charges for prescriptions in England and Wales (about GBP5 per prescription) but they are free in Scotland. There are no charges for tests, hospital stays, etc.

 

Many middle-class people have top-up insurance, but it mostly gets you faster and more luxurious treatment, rather than different treatment. It's very rare to find a specialist who doesn't work for the NHS, but many specialists have private patients too.

 

Laura

Edited May 29, 2011 by Laura Corin

[Jamee]

I once took my son to the ER in Germany. The first question they asked wasn't what insurance we have or how will we pay. They never asked. And being that we aren't under any German insurance we did eventually get a bill. The bill was pennies compared to what would have been charged here. I think for the visit they charged us $70. The last time my husband went to the ER the bill was $4000. Both situations were comparable. Something is seriously twisted and broken with our healthcare here. Germany isn't a third world country with sub standard shoddy treatment and lowly paid doctors.

 

 

:iagree:This was my experience with a trip to the ER in France. I had just found out I was pregnant with my first and started bleeding. Went to the ER, they had me fill out some paperwork, drove me by ambulance to the university hospital, did an ultrasound and other tests, kept me over night and provided a cot for DH. We left the next day with a prescription and having not paid a penny. When the bill came a few weeks later it was around $500--that was the full cost for everything! My insurance covered it, but it sure made me wonder why the US costs are so crazy.

 

It's the same for Korea too, excellent health care at a mere fraction to what is paid in the US for similar proceedures. DS had two full days of cardiology and gastro tests. Paid about $600 up front--everyone pays up front in Korea.

[FairProspects]

This thread is making me want to move to Europe or Australia!!

 

Dh did apply for several jobs in Canada, but we never heard back...

[Mrs Mungo]

This thread is making me want to move to Europe or Australia!!

 

Dh did apply for several jobs in Canada, but we never heard back...

 

Has he thought about working for the DoD in Europe? Might be a good way to transition. But, homeschooling could become tricky depending on his classification.

[Peela]

Hmmm - you must be living in the OTHER Australia because that hasn't been the experience of the one I live in:tongue_smilie:

 

I find here that health care is free or affordable to those who are on govt. welfare and qualify for concessions and those who can afford private health insurance. Since we don't qualify for either end we are going broke keeping up with our medical expenses. When I had to have a battery of tests for a serious illness that came up I had to pay for each and every one. Sure $500 for an MRI is a lot cheaper then what you pay in the USA but it's not free.

 

When my daughter was born the nursing staff were terribly incompetent and rude. The hospital knew I had grounds to sue them due to things that they did to me out of stupidity that the kept sending their legal department to chat to me every day I was there - I didn't even threaten to sue myself -they were freaked out that I would.:glare:

 

My DH was recently taken to hospital from his workplace via ambulance. The ospital is literally two streets away from where he works. We got a bill in the mail for almost $2000.

 

Now we hem and haw deciding whether to visit the doctor - after all there is no point seeing them if you can't afford the medication (really, you want $60 for a sinus nasal spray, I don't think so).

 

It is cheaper here - but the standard of care is debatable. The most competent doctor I ever had here was one that was born and trained in Canada. Every other doctor/nurse I've met here seems to have the attitude "She'll be right mate" and then basically do nothing to help you.

 

Mmm- not my experience at all- I am sure it varies all over the place. I am in Perth. We are middle income but we have health insurance- but the only things we have ever used it for are chiropractic rebates, some dental and orthodontic. We are seriously considering canning it or at least going back to the minimum cover, probably with ambulance cover.

I had one slightly early baby in the general maternity hospital- not by my choice- and it was a trip- not the birth experience i hoped for- but it didn't cost me a cent. The other was a wonderful birthing centre experience, also totally free along with midwife visits to my home throughout the pregnancy.

I have good doctors- a clinic I like with an alternative bent- the kids are still bulk billed until age 16- I pay a bit on top of Medicare rebate but not a lot- maybe $20 usually. That doesn't seem unreasonable. If I need to be bulk billed (free), I know where to go- the poorer suburbs in Perth, or the local hospital outpatient clinic.

I recently had a whole lot of blood tests, twice- I never paid for any. Certain things are free and so far all mine have been. We have all had ultra sounds and xrays free at the local hospital or clinic.

Prescriptions- as Sandra says- $10-$15 usually for antibiotics or whatever. Doesn't seem too unreasonable.

I have a friend who had cancer recently- she went into the public system and received the latest high tech treatment, radiation and chemo- and although not on concession, didn't pay a cent. She got rid of her private insurance after that, because she never needed it and the private hospital didn't have the technology- and she still would have paid on top of her insurance.

I find people who work in hospitals amazing- even though I am more naturally medically inclined and against a lot of what they do- I still appreciate their spirit and intention to do well by me to the best of their knowledge. I have been incredibly grateful for the simple kindness of nurses in particular.

 

Interesting we have such different experiences. I am very grateful for our system, even though it has its problems. However, we have no serious long term medical conditions and usually use doctors and the medical system for diagnostic purposes only- rarely for treatments.

[FairProspects]

Has he thought about working for the DoD in Europe? Might be a good way to transition. But, homeschooling could become tricky depending on his classification.

 

We would love that! We are civilian contractors right now, so I'm not sure how that would affect homeschooling. Dh has his name on the list if similar positions open in either Asia or Europe, but so far no luck. We definitely wouldn't rule it out though!

[Aelwydd]

:iagree: Aelwydd, I'm loving your posts in this thread.

 

I try! :)

[Aelwydd]

I know that some chronic health problems can lead to obesity. I also think that some people with obesity could afford to take better care of themselves (eat right, exercise, etc) but don't bother. Some people truly don't seem to care about nutrition and aren't interested in learning.

 

Our culture has so many unhealthy habits. If we just copied another country's universal health care system, would it work as well here? I suspect we walk/exercise less and eat more processed "food" than most countries. Americans eat out very often. Do Europeans eat more home cooked meals? Do their restaurants use better quality food? What about food served in schools?

 

Also, do other Western countries have doctors that are largely trained in how to push drugs? Our doctors don't generally know much about nutrition or the use of vitamins, minerals, herbs, and other supplements. Now, not all conditions can be treated this way, but it would be nice if all doctors knew which ones might be helped by these cheaper solutions.

 

I don't see how having universal health care in our country with doctors and patients keeping the same lifestyles and expecting pills to fix everything is going to save money. I think it could only work with a major lifestyle overhaul for many people

 

These are some very intelligent questions, Hoppy.

 

On the first point, as Impish has pointed out, Canadians are very similar to Americans in terms of lifestyle, and they have universal coverage. Their health care system is definitely more efficient, has better results overall, and is therefore, in my opinion, superior to the United States' system.

 

That said, the issues you raised are still a monumental hurdle. We cannot afford to insure an unhealthy America and we cannot afford to NOT insure it, either. We are paying more by electing a for-profit, privatized, selective system than we would be a non-profit, universal system. So, going to a universal system is a step towards reducing health care costs, but it is not the only step.

 

To give an example of how our system costs more:

 

A 30 year old uninsured employed woman begins having headaches, and takes over-the-counter medicines to treat her symptoms. She works 40-45 hours a week as a secretary in a small business, and she makes around $28,000 a year. She makes too much money for her state's cut-off for Medicaid, but she cannot afford the $240/month premium for the lowest insurance coverage available to her.

 

So, she continues working, and she continues having headaches. She goes to a local clinic that takes uninsured finally, and finds out she has high blood pressure of 180/100. They put her on a generic medication for her HBP, and tell her to come in regularly for check-ups.

 

The problem is, the clinic is always understaffed and extremely busy, and she finds it difficult to get in. Plus, she has to shell out $35 each time she goes. So, she continues her meds, and gets in when she can.

 

Hypertension is a difficult disease to manage, because in only around 5% of all cases is the primary cause of it known. There are MANY different reasons for why one may have it, from stress, to kidney problems, to heart disease, to diet. There are other causes.

 

Medication is therefore a shoot-and-miss type of treatment. It may address the problem, or it may not.

 

Our young woman goes on with her life until she starts having pain in her back, a year later. When she goes in to the urgent care, they tell her there is blood in her urine, and she should go to the ER.

 

In the ER, she gets tested and finally admitted for chronic kidney disease, and told her kidneys have sustained considerable damage that cannot be reversed. She still retains 40% function, but she is going to be restricted in how she eats, how she eats, and will require check-ups and at some point, dialysis. If her condition worsens, she'll require a transplant.

 

She is discharged from the hospital and 60 days later, receives a total bill for $21,000, for three days in hospital, ER visit, tests, labs, specialist fees, physician fees, procedures, and so forth.

 

 

The hospital is willing to set up a payment plan, where she's paying around $500 a month. She cannot afford that. She cannot afford her medications. Or nephrologist visits. And her ability to work is severely affected.

 

The stress of all this drives her into depression. Her health worsens.

 

And the bottom line is, whether she succumbs to her illness, or she survives and defaults on her medical bills, the plain truth is, SHE CANNOT PAY IT. She cannot even wipe it clear in bankruptcy, because medical bills are not subject to those laws.

 

Those fees get absorbed into the hospital's costs, and in turn, passed on to the rest of us in the form of increased fees.

 

So, we can continue doing it that way, or we could do it like Canada, for example. Where in the beginning when she first had the headaches, she went to her family physician, who has seen her regularly and has therefore established a baseline. Her physician diagnoses her with hypertension, but also orders other tests. Based on the results, he has her come in at regular intervals, and so she only goes 3 months before the urine tests start showing abnormally high amounts of creatinine.

 

He sends her to a nephrologist, who sees her 2 months later. He determines she has chronic kidney disease, and immediately puts her on medication to manage the disease to preserve function, and educates her on how to change her diet.

 

Her medical bills, in the second scenario, are significantly lower than the former. What's more, the second scenario preserves her ability to work, to produce wages, and therefore put more tax dollars into the same system that has helped her and others.

 

 

That is why universal health care, even for an unhealthy population such as ours, ends up being less expensive in the end. Because waiting until a condition reaches a crisis level almost always means there is more intervention required (more medicine, tests, etc.), more damage sustained (impeding working ability, causing lost wages), and more deaths (waiting too late for treatment).

 

 

Now, all that said, we do need to improve our nation's health. If people are caught in the primary stage of health care - PREVENTION - then many lives can be saved, and health and quality of life improved. To improve health, we have to look to improve all the things that affect health, such as:

 

1. Diet

2. Exercise

3. Environment

4. Preventative check-ups

5. Balance of stressors

6. Education about lifestyle choices

7. Societal values

 

 

These things are all interconnected. Diet is huge, because as I stated previously, it's mainly the "bad" foods, processed foods with added sugar and salt, that are subsidized by the government, and therefore more affordable. If all the stores in your neighborhood carry processed foods as the main staple of their products, then that is an environmental factor as well. Environment also comes into play when considering if your community is pedestrian or bike friendly. If it's all highways, and you cannot afford a gym membership, that makes exercise more difficult.

 

Environmental pollutants from different corporations and individuals also affect your health. The degree to which these pollutants are controlled and monitored depends upon your local and state government. These, in turn are affected by the larger culture of your particular state and region. Conservative states, such as mine, tend to favor corporate rights over individual rights, so big gas drills are regularly placed in the middle of neighborhoods, as well as in the middle of nowhere.

 

Culture also affects such things as work ethic. If you are working 60+ hours a week, it's kind of difficult to find time to eat right, exercise, and also, find time to de-stress from your job. Yet, Americans tend to glorify workaholism, and look sneeringly upon European countries where 35-40 hour work weeks, and 6-8 week paid vacations are the norm. Since the 1970's, the American worker has not seen his or her salary rise -- it has remained stagnant. Meanwhile, corporations have made more money every year, and been extremely profitable. This economic truth is made possible by the overall cultural acceptance and even expectation of this reality.

 

Education is affected by all this as well; culturally, it is difficult to present the facts about the shortcomings in our system, when being bombarded by propaganda groups who have an interest in preserving a hyper capitalist system that assures unprecedented profits each year for big business. That is why during the last election cycle, tons of money was spent on commercials with actors who shared their horror stories about Canadian health care ("See? Don't want that socialized medicine here, do you?").

 

 

I hope this looooooong post demonstrates in some small way, the enormous complexity of the problem, and why a simple overhaul of healthcare may help, but won't cure the problem.

 

As I stated earlier in this thread, the problem is this: We value the right of corporations and for-profit groups to make unlimited amounts of money more than we do the health, well-being, and happiness of ALL citizens.

 

This ideal underscores everything that is wrong with the American system, and why we tolerate 45,000 American men, women, and children dying from lack of health care.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Aelwydd

[FairProspects]

As I stated earlier in this thread, the problem is this: We value the right of corporations and for-profit groups to make unlimited amounts of money more than we do the health, well-being, and happiness of ALL citizens.

 

This ideal underscores everything that is wrong with the American system, and why we tolerate 45,000 American men, women, and children dying from lack of health care.

 

Preach it, sister!!:iagree:

[KristinaBreece]

I hope this looooooong post demonstrates in some small way, the enormous complexity of the problem, and why a simple overhaul of healthcare may help, but won't cure the problem.

 

As I stated earlier in this thread, the problem is this: We value the right of corporations and for-profit groups to make unlimited amounts of money more than we do the health, well-being, and happiness of ALL citizens.

 

This ideal underscores everything that is wrong with the American system, and why we tolerate 45,000 American men, women, and children dying from lack of health care.

 

I don't know you very well, but I think I love you. :D

[cathmom]

On the first point, as Impish has pointed out, Canadians are very similar to Americans in terms of lifestyle, and they have universal coverage. Their health care system is definitely more efficient, has better results overall, and is therefore, in my opinion, superior to the United States' system.

 

 

:iagree:

 

 

Now, all that said, we do need to improve our nation's health. If people are caught in the primary stage of health care - PREVENTION - then many lives can be saved, and health and quality of life improved.

 

 

 

 

 

I've heard that the average American only is on a specific insurance company's plan for about five years, so it's in their best interests (bottom-line wise) to NOT pay for preventive care, because by the time your health blows up, you won't be their client anymore. But on a national plan, prevention is in EVERYONE'S best interest because it keeps costs down, and, as you so beautifully described, workers working and taxes being paid.

[Snickerdoodle]

I once took my son to the ER in Germany. The first question they asked wasn't what insurance we have or how will we pay.

 

I once took my son to an ER in a western European country. They asked me to pay first before he could be seen and that I could bill the insurance company myself.

 

Interesting how different everyone's experiences are.

[creekland]

 

Interesting how different everyone's experiences are.

 

 

This is what I've noticed too. What one thinks about their own system tends to be reflective of their own experience. We hosted a German exchange student for a year. Her father was a doctor. He vastly preferred the US system to his own and was considering leaving his country. They never did, but they did look into the whole green card thing at that time. His not knowing English hardly at all was one deterrent he had as well as the harder odds for getting a green card.

[Snickerdoodle]

 

How do they know what it will cost?

They asked me to pay for a comprehensive exam and for a set of xrays after asking me why we came in. They told me that they would let me know if further medical attention and payment would be necessary. Thankfully it wasn't.

[Laura Corin]

I once took my son to an ER in a western European country. They asked me to pay first before he could be seen and that I could bill the insurance company myself.

 

Interesting how different everyone's experiences are.

 

Foreigners who use the British NHS are asked to pay, as they are not citizens or residents.

 

Laura

[Sputterduck]

Foreigners who use the British NHS are asked to pay, as they are not citizens or residents.

 

Laura

 

In America it's illegal to turn anyone away from an ER.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

These are some very intelligent questions, Hoppy.

 

On the first point, as Impish has pointed out, Canadians are very similar to Americans in terms of lifestyle, and they have universal coverage. Their health care system is definitely more efficient, has better results overall, and is therefore, in my opinion, superior to the United States' system.

 

That said, the issues you raised are still a monumental hurdle. We cannot afford to insure an unhealthy America and we cannot afford to NOT insure it, either. We are paying more by electing a for-profit, privatized, selective system than we would be a non-profit, universal system. So, going to a universal system is a step towards reducing health care costs, but it is not the only step.

 

To give an example of how our system costs more:

 

A 30 year old uninsured employed woman begins having headaches, and takes over-the-counter medicines to treat her symptoms. She works 40-45 hours a week as a secretary in a small business, and she makes around $28,000 a year. She makes too much money for her state's cut-off for Medicaid, but she cannot afford the $240/month premium for the lowest insurance coverage available to her.

 

So, she continues working, and she continues having headaches. She goes to a local clinic that takes uninsured finally, and finds out she has high blood pressure of 180/100. They put her on a generic medication for her HBP, and tell her to come in regularly for check-ups.

 

The problem is, the clinic is always understaffed and extremely busy, and she finds it difficult to get in. Plus, she has to shell out $35 each time she goes. So, she continues her meds, and gets in when she can.

 

Hypertension is a difficult disease to manage, because in only around 5% of all cases is the primary cause of it known. There are MANY different reasons for why one may have it, from stress, to kidney problems, to heart disease, to diet. There are other causes.

 

Medication is therefore a shoot-and-miss type of treatment. It may address the problem, or it may not.

 

Our young woman goes on with her life until she starts having pain in her back, a year later. When she goes in to the urgent care, they tell her there is blood in her urine, and she should go to the ER.

 

In the ER, she gets tested and finally admitted for chronic kidney disease, and told her kidneys have sustained considerable damage that cannot be reversed. She still retains 40% function, but she is going to be restricted in how she eats, how she eats, and will require check-ups and at some point, dialysis. If her condition worsens, she'll require a transplant.

 

She is discharged from the hospital and 60 days later, receives a total bill for $21,000, for three days in hospital, ER visit, tests, labs, specialist fees, physician fees, procedures, and so forth.

 

 

The hospital is willing to set up a payment plan, where she's paying around $500 a month. She cannot afford that. She cannot afford her medications. Or nephrologist visits. And her ability to work is severely affected.

 

The stress of all this drives her into depression. Her health worsens.

 

And the bottom line is, whether she succumbs to her illness, or she survives and defaults on her medical bills, the plain truth is, SHE CANNOT PAY IT. She cannot even wipe it clear in bankruptcy, because medical bills are not subject to those laws.

 

Those fees get absorbed into the hospital's costs, and in turn, passed on to the rest of us in the form of increased fees.

 

So, we can continue doing it that way, or we could do it like Canada, for example. Where in the beginning when she first had the headaches, she went to her family physician, who has seen her regularly and has therefore established a baseline. Her physician diagnoses her with hypertension, but also orders other tests. Based on the results, he has her come in at regular intervals, and so she only goes 3 months before the urine tests start showing abnormally high amounts of creatinine.

 

He sends her to a nephrologist, who sees her 2 months later. He determines she has chronic kidney disease, and immediately puts her on medication to manage the disease to preserve function, and educates her on how to change her diet.

 

Her medical bills, in the second scenario, are significantly lower than the former. What's more, the second scenario preserves her ability to work, to produce wages, and therefore put more tax dollars into the same system that has helped her and others.

 

 

That is why universal health care, even for an unhealthy population such as ours, ends up being less expensive in the end. Because waiting until a condition reaches a crisis level almost always means there is more intervention required (more medicine, tests, etc.), more damage sustained (impeding working ability, causing lost wages), and more deaths (waiting too late for treatment).

 

 

Now, all that said, we do need to improve our nation's health. If people are caught in the primary stage of health care - PREVENTION - then many lives can be saved, and health and quality of life improved. To improve health, we have to look to improve all the things that affect health, such as:

 

1. Diet

2. Exercise

3. Environment

4. Preventative check-ups

5. Balance of stressors

6. Education about lifestyle choices

7. Societal values

 

 

These things are all interconnected. Diet is huge, because as I stated previously, it's mainly the "bad" foods, processed foods with added sugar and salt, that are subsidized by the government, and therefore more affordable. If all the stores in your neighborhood carry processed foods as the main staple of their products, then that is an environmental factor as well. Environment also comes into play when considering if your community is pedestrian or bike friendly. If it's all highways, and you cannot afford a gym membership, that makes exercise more difficult.

 

Environmental pollutants from different corporations and individuals also affect your health. The degree to which these pollutants are controlled and monitored depends upon your local and state government. These, in turn are affected by the larger culture of your particular state and region. Conservative states, such as mine, tend to favor corporate rights over individual rights, so big gas drills are regularly placed in the middle of neighborhoods, as well as in the middle of nowhere.

 

Culture also affects such things as work ethic. If you are working 60+ hours a week, it's kind of difficult to find time to eat right, exercise, and also, find time to de-stress from your job. Yet, Americans tend to glorify workaholism, and look sneeringly upon European countries where 35-40 hour work weeks, and 6-8 week paid vacations are the norm. Since the 1970's, the American worker has not seen his or her salary rise -- it has remained stagnant. Meanwhile, corporations have made more money every year, and been extremely profitable. This economic truth is made possible by the overall cultural acceptance and even expectation of this reality.

 

Education is affected by all this as well; culturally, it is difficult to present the facts about the shortcomings in our system, when being bombarded by propaganda groups who have an interest in preserving a hyper capitalist system that assures unprecedented profits each year for big business. That is why during the last election cycle, tons of money was spent on commercials with actors who shared their horror stories about Canadian health care ("See? Don't want that socialized medicine here, do you?").

 

 

I hope this looooooong post demonstrates in some small way, the enormous complexity of the problem, and why a simple overhaul of healthcare may help, but won't cure the problem.

 

As I stated earlier in this thread, the problem is this: We value the right of corporations and for-profit groups to make unlimited amounts of money more than we do the health, well-being, and happiness of ALL citizens.

 

This ideal underscores everything that is wrong with the American system, and why we tolerate 45,000 American men, women, and children dying from lack of health care.

Amen:D:hurray:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I also truly believe universal healthcare is a job creator. I have met many people who would like to start their own business but cannot since they need group health insurance. The Affordable Health Care Act should relieve some of this since it will provide a market for individuals and small businesses as well as subsidies. I hope our country takes it a step further and does medicare for all along with subsidizing medical education.

[Laura Corin]

In America it's illegal to turn anyone away from an ER.

 

But they'd get money from you if they could.

 

Laura

[Aelwydd]

In America it's illegal to turn anyone away from an ER.

 

As far as I know, asking them to pay is not the same as denying them care for an inability to pay.

 

I'm an American citizen who recently had to use the local ER, because I was very sick with flu (Type B). I was so ill, they thought something like appendicitis might be going on. That did not stop the admissions lady from coming in to the room where I was being treated and request that I pay my ER copay (which was $250.00 USD). My mother fished my cc out from my purse and gave it to her, as I was too weak to do it myself. (Later on, I received more bills for the out-of-pocket expenses affiliated with the CT and other testing).

 

The hospital in question is Baylor Medical Center in Grapevine, TX, which is mostly an upper middle class suburban community just northeast of Dallas. It is considered one of the nicer hospitals in the Metroplex, and yet, I had to wait 2 hours to even be seen, while burning up with fever and half-passed out on my mother's shoulder.

 

So, someone tell me again how much better I have it here than in Canada or some other western nation.

[I.Dup.]

I don't think we should be so quick to think Canada has such a superior system to ours. I have heard people regularly die in Canada while waiting for an MRI or for surgery, and a good friend of mine who lives there said it is SO frustrating having to wait so long for any kind of appt.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I don't think we should be so quick to think Canada has such a superior system to ours. I have heard people regularly die in Canada while waiting for an MRI or for surgery, and a good friend of mine who lives there said it is SO frustrating having to wait so long for any kind of appt.

 

Many of our Canadian posters would beg to differ, I believe, and like the Canadian system.

 

As for dying, plenty of Americans are dying due to inadequate health care. Emergency rooms will not give chemo or radiation for cancer nor will they fill your prescriptions which for many people are necessary to live. My meds would cost about $1000.00 a month without insurance:001_huh: Those with inadequate insurance are also suffering trying to decide which meds or care to forgo:( My dh and I as well as my parents were in that position in the past.

 

As for waits for appointments, almost all of my doctors are booked 3-6 months in advance so it takes that long to get an appointment unless there is a problem which I believe is the same in other countries.

[I.Dup.]

We hardly ever have to wait for an appointment for regular or emergency care, the only thing we have ever had to wait for is to see a specialist like a neurodevelopmental or endocrine specialist.

 

Also, in the 4 different states we have lived in, they have all had EXCELLENT free medical care (and great coverage at that) for people who qualify under a certain income. We have taken advantage of this and gotten free care for most of my children's births and all of their medical care.

[Aelwydd]

Oh, and I forgot to mention, that according to what I've read, those countries that have national health insurance tend to have reciprocal agreements, to cover each other's citizens who are visiting. That is, if you are an Aussie visiting the U.K., and break your leg, don't worry mate, it's covered. :)

 

If the US had its own national health program, then it too, could make such an agreement, which would abrogate the need to collect up front, or to collect at all.

[FairProspects]

I'm an American citizen who recently had to use the local ER, because I was very sick with flu (Type B). I was so ill, they thought something like appendicitis might be going on. That did not stop the admissions lady from coming in to the room where I was being treated and request that I pay my ER copay (which was $250.00 USD). My mother fished my cc out from my purse and gave it to her, as I was too weak to do it myself. (Later on, I received more bills for the out-of-pocket expenses affiliated with the CT and other testing).

 

The hospital in question is Baylor Medical Center in Grapevine, TX, which is mostly an upper middle class suburban community just northeast of Dallas. It is considered one of the nicer hospitals in the Metroplex, and yet, I had to wait 2 hours to even be seen, while burning up with fever and half-passed out on my mother's shoulder.

 

So, someone tell me again how much better I have it here than in Canada or some other western nation.

 

:iagree: and if you want to talk about mismanagement of medical services, lets talk about how ER's are the only thing open after 8pm or after 12pm on Sat or Sundays all day (which is why they are overcrowded and waits are so long).

 

I have chronic ear problems that require multiple on-going surgeries and my ear drum regularly bursts. Once my eardrum bursts I need antibiotics, but it is not a life-threatening emergency (although its extremely painful). It usually bursts at night, sometimes on a weekend. EVERY SINGLE TIME I call the on-call nurse, they insist that I go to the ER, because it is the only thing open.

 

I have fought with more nurses than I can count because I do not want to pay hundreds of dollars for a round of antibiotics and have to sit in the ER for hours for something that is not a true emergency. Last time my ear burst I ended up taking an expired antibiotic just to get me through to Monday to see my GP (for which he called me a dolt, but really what was I supposed to do?).

 

Seriously, the medical system here is a huge mess. You may not realize it if you are healthy and rarely use it, but for those of us who have to use it frequently, it sucks!!

[Aelwydd]

We hardly ever have to wait for an appointment for regular or emergency care, the only thing we have ever had to wait for is to see a specialist like a neurodevelopmental or endocrine specialist.

 

Also, in the 4 different states we have lived in, they have all had EXCELLENT free medical care (and great coverage at that) for people who qualify under a certain income. We have taken advantage of this and gotten free care for most of my children's births and all of their medical care.

 

You've been fortunate. I've lived in several states. The health care system and the wait tend to vary. Here in Texas, we have dealt with the ER on five occasions. The first was when my son broke his leg jumping off the bed. We came in at 12 midnight, and waited an hour for them to x-ray the limb, 30 minutes to dispense pain medication after that, and another half hour after that to have someone splint it. We left the hospital 3 hours and $150 poorer after we arrived. They gave us a script to go see an orthopedist, since I guess casts are too specialized an activity for the ER these days. So, we managed to get to see an ortho that week, who had his PA actually set the cast.

 

The PA did such a poor job, that his foot was in a hyper spastic extension when the cast came off 4 weeks later. The ortho gave us a script for crutches and told us ds was cured.

 

After 2 weeks of begging the ortho to get ds some phys. therapy for the leg and foot, which was still frozen in the unnatural position of the cast, I finally went to our family doctor, who wrote us the script for the phys. therapy.

 

I won't share with you the costs of all this, but the x-rays and phys. ed were all subject to our $2000 deductible and 20% of costs after that.

 

And that was just the first ER visit. Out of the 5 total visits we have had (to different area hospitals), only one involved a wait of less than an hour.

[Snickerdoodle]

Foreigners who use the British NHS are asked to pay, as they are not citizens or residents.

 

Laura

 

We were residents.

[FairProspects]

You've been fortunate.

And that was just the first ER visit. Out of the 5 total visits we have had (to different area hospitals), only one involved a wait of less than an hour.

 

:iagree:I've never waited less than 3 hours at an ER around here. Average waits have been 3-6 hours. Now, in all fairness, none of these have been life-threatening emergencies, but I wouldn't set foot in an ER now unless I was dying and had no other choice.

[I.Dup.]

You've been fortunate. I've lived in several states. The health care system and the wait tend to vary. Here in Texas, we have dealt with the ER on five occasions. The first was when my son broke his leg jumping off the bed. We came in at 12 midnight, and waited an hour for them to x-ray the limb, 30 minutes to dispense pain medication after that, and another half hour after that to have someone splint it. We left the hospital 3 hours and $150 poorer after we arrived. They gave us a script to go see an orthopedist, since I guess casts are too specialized an activity for the ER these days. So, we managed to get to see an ortho that week, who had his PA actually set the cast.

 

The PA did such a poor job, that his foot was in a hyper spastic extension when the cast came off 4 weeks later. The ortho gave us a script for crutches and told us ds was cured.

 

After 2 weeks of begging the ortho to get ds some phys. therapy for the leg and foot, which was still frozen in the unnatural position of the cast, I finally went to our family doctor, who wrote us the script for the phys. therapy.

 

I won't share with you the costs of all this, but the x-rays and phys. ed were all subject to our $2000 deductible and 20% of costs after that.

 

And that was just the first ER visit. Out of the 5 total visits we have had (to different area hospitals), only one involved a wait of less than an hour.

 

I'm sure it depends largely on the area and the hospitals.

 

As for ER visits, I would bet those are horrible everywhere, in every country. The Canadian friend I mentioned had to take her 1 year old to the ER 3 times in one week, and each time she was there all night, just trying to get him cough/croup medicine. She was SO frustrated and upset by the end of that week.

[I.Dup.]

I would be shocked to hear that other countries have ERs that are speedy and efficient. That is NOT what I have heard at all.

[Laura Corin]

We were residents.

 

Did they think you were tourists? The rules are that people ordinarily resident in the UK do not pay. Husband - American accent - has never been asked to pay. Which country were you in?

 

Laura

Edited May 29, 2011 by Laura Corin

[Beetkvass]

I would be shocked to hear that other countries have ERs that are speedy and efficient. That is NOT what I have heard at all.

 

The point is that in those other countries you can get seen and treated no matter what your income is. That is not the case here. ER's give bare minimum treatment if you have no insurance. There is nothing to be proud of that our country provides great medical care when the great medical care is limited only a certain segment of the population.

[Aelwydd]

I also just wanted to add, that as someone else stated, people's perception of their health care system tend to be shaped by individual experiences. This is anecdotal evidence, and is subjective.

 

That is why anecdotal evidence, though important, should not be used as the standard by which health care accessibility and effectiveness are measured, because you can have small pockets of excellence among a wide backdrop of average to very poor care. Those who have lived in the "small pockets" tend to think that their experience is representative of most.

 

The only way to get an accurate picture of the overall system is to take large groups, or subsets, and compare them to other groups. The larger the group, the more accurate it will reflect the population at large. The extremes, or outliers, are less likely to skew the results, when you look at a lot of people, versus one person's story here, and another person's story there.

 

Everyone has a story to share. I have mine, and I've shared some here. I have a friend in Canada whose mother had breast cancer, and was seen and treated immediately and aggressively. And I have a friend here in nearby Fort Worth, who had breast cancer, and waited 3 months to reveal a breast lump, because she had no insurance, and was afraid her husband's new insurance would reject it as a pre-existing condition, if it was diagnosed before new coverage took effect.

 

Both were treated, but my Texan friend wasn't touched until she paid $1500 up front first.

 

See? I have personal experiences to back up my opinions. But, again, personal experiences are subjective and myopic.

 

This is why public health officials and health care providers look at population studies to base their recommendations for best practices and evidence-based medicine. Similarly, they rely very heavily upon such measures as infant mortality and life expectancy, which are based upon statistical calculations over the whole population, to judge both how healthy our citizens are, and how effective our health care system is.

 

When you measure the U.S. in each of these categories against other wealthy, western nations, there is a very clear pattern of inefficiency and sub-standard results that is readily apparent to everyone from the CDC to the World Health Organization to people like me, who read about and study the health care system in depth. This poor showing is even more inexcusable when one considers that we outspend EVERY. OTHER. COUNTRY. In the world in health care.

 

So. Bottom line: we spend tons more money, but we still have more babies, mamas, children, and working dads suffering and dying from lack of health care than other comparable nations.

 

That's not just shocking. That's unconscionable.

[I.Dup.]

The point is that in those other countries you can get seen and treated no matter what your income is. That is not the case here.

 

But what about the medical care that the government does provide? Like I said in our case, it has been wonderful and always covered everything. That's only been for pregnancies/children's health care but it's covered everything- specialists, etc. I wonder why no one talks about that, because we've had great experiences with it in every state we've lived? There is a MAJOR stigma about using the gov't care we do have (because people whine and gripe about it using their tax money), and I find that interesting since there is a big push about having 100% government controlled healthcare. From what I understand, the countries that have "free" health care are taxed through the ROOF and it's certainly not anymore quick or efficient than the health care we have here.

[Aelwydd]

:iagree:I've never waited less than 3 hours at an ER around here. Average waits have been 3-6 hours. Now, in all fairness, none of these have been life-threatening emergencies, but I wouldn't set foot in an ER now unless I was dying and had no other choice.

 

 

I know, I'm the same way. It's why I waited until I was 8 days into the flu before finally going into the ER. I didn't know I had the flu (a false negative test in the doctor's office had me thinking it was just a regular virus), but I was in incredible pain and extremely sick.

 

I don't expect that Canadian ERs are any faster, or other countries' ERs are faster either. My beef is with people using the "OMG, you'll wait forever with socialized health care!" argument are overlooking that we already wait a long time to be seen. And we pay tons more for it!

[Peela]

I would be shocked to hear that other countries have ERs that are speedy and efficient. That is NOT what I have heard at all.

 

MMM, I dont expect immediate treatment if my kid has a possible broken arm, because its not a priority one issue. It depends on when you go there and what catastrophes are there at the time. But its not horrendous or anything. Once a doctor has seen us, they will either treat us there (free) or send us to the outpatient clinic for free treatment. I am glad they see the emergencies first- they judge them as they come in, as to who needs to be seen first- that seems appropriate to me. A possible heart attack needs to be seen before a broken arm.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

We hardly ever have to wait for an appointment for regular or emergency care, the only thing we have ever had to wait for is to see a specialist like a neurodevelopmental or endocrine specialist.

 

Also, in the 4 different states we have lived in, they have all had EXCELLENT free medical care (and great coverage at that) for people who qualify under a certain income. We have taken advantage of this and gotten free care for most of my children's births and all of their medical care.

 

Unfortunately many Americans are not eligible for free medical care since they make too much money yet truly cannot afford medical care or insurance:( When I was a nursing student, one of the projects I had to do was to find out about benfits such as medicaid and food stamps. I was shocked at how little money one had to be making in order to qualify for the benefits. THis leaves a lot of people to fall through the cracks:(.

 

You are lucky you have not had to wait since in my experience that is unusual in my 30 plus years as an adult navigating the health care system. Plus I live in an area with lots of doctors and 3 hospitals so it is not like I live in the boondocks;) I think there are many Americans who have experienced the same as me:(.