s/o punctuality

[Jean in Newcastle]

If you are not punctual to business engagements, you may find your pool of customers shrinks. I've never known of someone to be fired or not hired because they were prompt, but I have found the opposite. Having a smaller pool of employers/customers doesn't meant that you won't have any employers/customers.

 

If you are not punctual to lessons/activities it may affect your membership in that activity/lesson. Some places will ask you to drop out if you are chronically late. And some activities will close their doors to people who are late. I've never known of anyone who has negative ramifications for being on top or a few minutes early.

 

If you are not punctual to social engagements, you may find that it affects your social life. It's much less likely to if they are family or friends who have had a chance to get to know and love you.

 

You can find business contacts, lessons/activities and friends who meet you where you are on your time schedule. But I think it would be a bit naive to not realize that it does influence who those people might be. If you find your happiness within the smaller pool, then great. I do have a certain amount of stress due to time - in getting in out the door, in getting to my destination, in being ready to participate in things on time and within a time frame. You may very well have a longer time on this earth than I do;)

[cindergretta]

You may very well have a longer time on this earth than I do;)

 

:lol: Oh my gosh!! This made me laugh!!! Really, the chronically late will live longer? Why?? Because they need more time to get to death?? (I am NOT making fun of you! :grouphug: It is just too funny to me! I mean, late people do need more time, yes?? :tongue_smilie: )

[Jean in Newcastle]

:lol: Oh my gosh!! This made me laugh!!! Really, the chronically late will live longer? Why?? Because they need more time to get to death?? (I am NOT making fun of you! :grouphug: It is just too funny to me! I mean, late people do need more time, yes?? :tongue_smilie: )

 

No! Because you probably aren't as stressed. But your theory made me :lol:

[cindergretta]

Sort of roaming with that idea - if you (random anyone, no one specificlaly) *knew* that the stress of being on time and punctual to every event and appointment and social gathering was going to eliminate 5 years from your life, would it still matter so much? What about your spouse's life? Or your dc's life? Would it still matter if you knew that the stress was making your heart work harder while your cortisol levels shot up, would you still care so much about your own (and other peoples') punctuality?

 

Just curious... :lurk5:

[jewellsmommy]

Pardon me if this has been mentioned but one group of people who always seem to run late are doctors! Yes, sometimes it is because they had a patient early in the day who was late, but I have had the 1st appt of the day and the 1st appt after lunch and they will be late anyway. But, we put up with this and do not call them unprofessional. In fact, it seems the more specialized (which should be even more professional in my mind, for some reason) the later they seem to run :glare:. I know they do their best, but they always overbook their appts. I suppose the good thing is that more people are getting seen whereas they may be waiting months to see that neurologist, but I wonder, do they get a pass in your book or do you feel that they are disrespecting their patients with their tardiness?

 

I accuse my dh of being disrespectful to me, because I am the one who cares about being on time and makes adjustments to be on time. He cares, but is like "well, yes, we are running late. But there is no reason to stress about it now" as we are driving to the soccer field and I am letting him have it! :rant:

 

But, I see both sides to this and stress a little less than I used to.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Sort of roaming with that idea - if you (random anyone, no one specificlaly) *knew* that the stress of being on time and punctual to every event and appointment and social gathering was going to eliminate 5 years from your life, would it still matter so much? What about your spouse's life? Or your dc's life? Would it still matter if you knew that the stress was making your heart work harder while your cortisol levels shot up, would you still care so much about your own (and other peoples') punctuality?

 

Just curious... :lurk5:

 

I'll answer this for two reasons - I brought it up (well Ester Maria actually alluded to it first but I said it more plainly) and I do have adrenal/stress problems. It has not made a difference to my punctuality. But it has made a difference to how much I schedule in a day - so back-to-back scheduling esp. is not something I do unless I absolutely have to do so. It has also made a difference on how early I get ready - esp. with regards to getting some things ready the night before so that I'm not rushing around so much to get around the door. This includes looking things up on mapquest etc. so that I know where I'm going.

[jewellsmommy]

No! Because you probably aren't as stressed. But your theory made me :lol:

 

 

I joke that dh will be late to his own funeral all the time. He was, after all, late for our wedding!!! He was supposed to be at the church at 4pm for pre stuff like pictures and whatnot. He came running into the church at 6:20 with the tuxedo slung over his shoulder! We were scheduled to walk down the aisle at 6:30 so he argues that he wasn't truly late!

 

He was late for his grandmother's funeral and we were the only family "hosting" it or whatever you call it. Heck, he/we were running late when we drove to Richmond to pick up her cremated remains. Dh was raised by his grandmother and cared deeply for her but the place almost closed before we got there and then she would have missed her own funeral. How bad would that be :001_huh:!

 

 

 

To dh, his punctuality has nothing to do with respect, caring, or anything like that. I have argued till blue in the face and he still does not see a connection. So, I can only conclude that, rather you see that time/respect connection or not, must be the brain make up/genetic/personality type you are. He is impervious to logic. :)

Edited May 20, 2011 by jewellsmommy

[Barb_]

Pardon me if this has been mentioned but one group of people who always seem to run late are doctors! Yes, sometimes it is because they had a patient early in the day who was late, but I have had the 1st appt of the day and the 1st appt after lunch and they will be late anyway. But, we put up with this and do not call them unprofessional.

 

Actually, if I have to wait for more than 20 minutes for an appointment, I ask the front desk if there has been an emergency of some sort and could she give me an estimate as to how much more time the doctor will be. If she just smiles and says the doctor is just running late, I cancel my appointment. Then I find another doctor. If I (or my child) had something truly wrong I would tolerate it, but I'd grumble. I do think it's unprofessional to make people routinely wait 20, 30, or 45 minutes for an appointment. Many do. OB's are notorious for that. I'm very fortunate to have found a gp's office that calls me within 10 minutes of sitting down...often within 5. I can get in, get a strep culture or an ear check done, and be out in under 30 minutes. I love efficiency in a medical office. The flip side though, is that if I am more than 10 minutes late to my appointment, they will not see me. I have to reschedule. That happened once when I got pulled over for rolling through a stop sign. I was frustrated, but I understand that's how they stay on schedule for everyone else. I'm okay with that.

 

Barb

[Jean in Newcastle]

Pardon me if this has been mentioned but one group of people who always seem to run late are doctors!

 

I must be extremely fortunate because I have 5 different doctors that I go to and none of them make me wait more than 5 or 10 minutes after checking in. And since I strive to be there at least 5 minutes early to check in, then they are usually right on time.

[MischiefManaged]

Life skill. Learned behavior.

 

I do think it's rude to *always* be late. It's a bad habit to fall into. I understand that getting out the door with a large family or with littles can be difficult though. And I understand that, for some people, the habit is deeply ingrained and does not necessarily reflect their level of respect or consideration for myself or others (I know that some will disagree with that statement).

 

I know some very generous and kind individuals who are habitually late wherever they go.

 

:iagree:

 

I prefer to give as much grace to punctuality issues as possible. If it's not a matter of life and death, then I'm not going to consider someone being late as 'rude.' life's too short.

 

I do think that if someone has money/time invested in the arrival time, then the consequences of it costing you for being late are simply a matter of fact. If I have a student show up 15 minutes late for a 30-minute lesson, they still have to pay for the 30 minutes even tho they only receive 15 minutes of instruction. But I'm not going to get offended at it. Likewise, if I as a customer have invested time/money in arriving in a punctual manner [babysitters/ whatnot] then I expect some sort of monetary [or other] compensation if the agreed upon plans are upset. I agree that homeschool fieldtrips I *only* schedule as a group if I am getting money UPFRONT.

[keptwoman]

I run a homeschool event once a year, we routinely have 30+ families there. In the 3 years I've been running it, there has been one family late once. The reason for this is that I state clearly that we will enter the gates on the dot of 10am, and anyone who is not there will not get in with the group and will have to pay full price.

The family that was late understood that, and entered at full price. When people are given a clear consequence, it's remarkable how a community, which is known for it's tardiness, all manage to be on time.

[Karis]

I am being real. I want my healthcare based on what the real situation is, not on what some "professional scheduler" who doesn't know me and will never meet me guesstimates. I give doctors a pass because no one really knows what is going to walk into their office. I have chronically ill kids and I pay out the @$$ for health insurance. You'd better bet that when I walk into that office, I expect that doctor to give me the time and attention I need to have all my questions, concerns, and issues attended to.

 

I would consider it highly UNprofessional for a doctor to cut a patient off in the middle of a visit because they have to stick to their schedule. And while we're being real, let's not forget that insurance companies reimburse doctors for their time in pre-alloted chunks. Doctors are not encouraged to be generous with their time.

 

Tara

 

Tara,

 

I hear you.

 

Just know that your receipt of "undivided attention" probably ran over and someone else's scheduled appointment is now "running late" because of it because of you (personal). The schedulers are the receptionists. They schedule the appointments so anyone should - # 1 - have a respect for what they do and know that they do, in fact, play a large role in how appointments are handled.

 

You seem angry.

 

And my posts are not an "attack" or a slam on anyone. Just something to consider.

 

Any focus on MY rights, MY expectations, they need to be considerate of MY time/ what I will or won't tolerate/ what I can not stand... is essentially very ME-centered.

 

It's self absorbed, also - just another extreme.

 

We imperfect people (meaning EVERYONE) will plan as best we can but save ourselves from the stress of things not going the way we want them to - we should simply extend some grace and :chillpill:.

Edited May 20, 2011 by Karis

[Impish]

I really don't understand how expecting someone to show up when they say they will is being self absorbed.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I am almost tempted to say that no, some people cannot learn it, and that a particular set of nations filled with many such people living around the Mediterranean sea should just be collectively cut some slack in this particular aspect of their lives. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

I was getting SO frustrated at my BIL's wedding because EVERYTHING was running late. My BIL married an Egyptian girl, and everyone kept telling us things were running on "Egyptian Time." When the food still wasn't served by 9:00PM at a reception that started at 6:00PM, even the Egyptians were getting a little anxious! I left and ordered room service because my little kids were starving, but dh was in the wedding, so he had to stay. The bride was being a bridezilla and took too long with pictures, re-doing her hair, and I don't even know what else. Everyone who stayed said the food was completely ruined because it was supposed to be served at 7:00 and had sat in the kitchen waiting for 2.5 hours.

[Haiku]

I will not stay with a doctor who runs more than 10 mins late on a regular basis, they need to manage their time better. My doctor is always bang on time, and I am always on time to see her.

 

 

Well, to juxtapose the doctor situation with the language tutor situation that's also being discussed, here's my 2 cents:

 

Two of my kids see specialists at the local children's hospital. In our city, there is one (1) doctor of the type my dd needs to see who is a pediatric doctor in that specialty. In order to see another one, we'd have to drive 1.25 hours to the next city. This doctor we see is rarely more than 5-10 minutes late; even if he were an hour late, I would stick with him because 1) he's the only one in town and 2) we REALLY like him and he is extremely attentive to my dd and her health.

 

When I was looking for a Spanish tutor for the kids, I had a plethora of options. Honestly, I don't prioritize Spanish tutoring the way I do healthcare. I would not drive 1.25 hours to a Spanish tutor, and I would not put up with a Spanish tutor who was always (or frequently) late. Spanish, while important in our homeschool, just doesn't matter to me as much as my kids' health. It's not that I'm a huge egoist or that I flip out about minutes and seconds. It's just that I prioritize punctuality on the part of someone I hire over their supposed supernatural ability to impart language to my kids. It's just a matter of choices.

 

I have left doctors who were rude and unresponsive; I would leave a tutor who was always late. I would not leave a doctor who is superfab to us but runs late. It's just about choices.

 

In a similar vein, just as people who are always late say that it's not a matter of rudeness on their part, people who are always on time aren't these anal, freakish, super-tense time junkies. Being on time is a preference, and being with people who are on time is a preference. I started my comments on this thread saying that I think chronic tardiness is a personality thing that is hard for people to overcome. I get that. I do think there is an element of thoughtlessness to it, but I don't think that's the main issue and aside from being annoyed by the chronically tardy, I don't relegate them to the dustbin of human worth. I think that those who don't want to be thought of as rude for always being late need to recognize that those who are timely don't want to be thought of as anal and uptight. The same people who bristle at being thought of as rude for being late seem to be throwing around a lot of pejorative words about those who are not late.

 

Tara

Edited May 20, 2011 by TaraTheLiberator

[SailorMom]

Ester, do you have any experience being a leader of a volunteer group? Trust me - I don't do it for my own edification. It is not about ego - it is because the parents involved begged me to take over and do the job no one wanted to do. If they don't appreciate the time and eneergy that I put into their kids' scouting/homeschool activities - what does that mean about them? I am not saying I expect them to fawn over me and thank me.... but showing up on time would be nice. And as a Cub Master, or Committee Chair- it is VERY disruptive once we have started to have people/families show up late (say, in the middle of the Pledge, prayer, or announcements everyone needs to hear).

As for the museum - there was no one to start with. We were it. We would have never even waited if we knew these families were punctual most of the time. But because we were trying to wait for SOMEONE else to show up - we figured we had better wait around - having no idea when anyone was getting there. I'll tell you right now - very few late people I know actually understand that I shouldn't wait for them. At den meetings - they always expected me to go back over everything for them or their sons.

Again - I don't stress to be on time - I don't see how it is stressful.... We are all capable of basic math. From what I am reading, those of you who are late frequently have told yourselves way too often that being on time is stressful, and that this is a good reason to not worry about it. i get it is a personality thing in many ways, but most "late" people I know are fully capable of being on time when they want to be. I, again, have some wonderful friends who are late all the time - that doesn't bother me. It is only in situations like those I've mentioned above. I don't think the people themselves as a whole are horrible, or anything - but I do maintain that the act of being late itself is rude.

Edited May 20, 2011 by SailorMom

[Haiku]

You seem angry.

 

 

 

No, I'm not. Sometimes I get a little intense in discussions of healthcare because we have had a massive amount of healthcare struggles over the years, but I'm not angry about this thread in particular. :D

 

Tara

[MrsBasil]

Sort of roaming with that idea - if you (random anyone, no one specificlaly) *knew* that the stress of being on time and punctual to every event and appointment and social gathering was going to eliminate 5 years from your life, would it still matter so much? What about your spouse's life? Or your dc's life? Would it still matter if you knew that the stress was making your heart work harder while your cortisol levels shot up, would you still care so much about your own (and other peoples') punctuality?

 

Just curious... :lurk5:

 

I don't stress about being on time or being late. I'm not particularly organized, but when I know other people are counting on me or expecting me at X time....I just do what I need to do to arrive on time.

 

I have no anxiety and if something happens beyond my control(diaper blowout, flat tire, bad traffic etc) then I do what I need to and decide whether arriving late is OK or not.

 

I don't sit and fume when other people show up late either. If it's someone who has a habit of being late, I do notice and usually limit contact if I can. I'm chill about, no worries there. :D

[Ginevra]

I run a homeschool event once a year, we routinely have 30+ families there. In the 3 years I've been running it, there has been one family late once. The reason for this is that I state clearly that we will enter the gates on the dot of 10am, and anyone who is not there will not get in with the group and will have to pay full price.

The family that was late understood that, and entered at full price. When people are given a clear consequence, it's remarkable how a community, which is known for it's tardiness, all manage to be on time.

 

I think this is key, keptwoman. You train people how to treat you.

 

In a similar vein, just as people who are always late say that it's not a matter of rudeness on their part, people who are always on time aren't these anal, freakish, super-tense time junkies. Being on time is a preference, and being with people who are on time is a preference. I started my comments on this thread saying that I think chronic tardiness is a personality thing that is hard for people to overcome. I get that. I do think there is an element of thoughtlessness to it, but I don't think that's the main issue and aside from being annoyed by the chronically tardy, I don't relegate them to the dustbin of human worth. I think that those who don't want to be thought of as rude for always being late need to recognize that those who are timely don't want to be thought of as anal and uptight. The same people who bristle at being thought of as rude for being late seem to be throwing around a lot of pejorative words about those who are not late.

 

Tara

 

:iagree: Well-said.

[Karis]

Can you explain how they are to do that? Let's say I call and make an appt. for my son saying he has a rash. Now, when I get there, the rash could be a simple thing and they give me medicine and send us on our way. Or it could be more complex and they need to run several tests to see if they can determine what is causing it. From the information I have given them when scheduling it, how would they know whether it will be a 5 minute appt. or a 30 minute appointment? I don't understand how they can determine this ahead of time.

 

 

You are right. I meant per appointment, not per patient. thanks.

 

Take the test and clear the room. They'll call with the results. or... wait in the waiting area. There are ways to manage everything.

 

Most offices have a block schedule and a specific time slot for when "call-ins" can be seen. If not, they will be chronically late.

 

which goes back to somebody waiting at the doctor's office. Somebody having an issue with being made/ expected to wait and somebody choosing to extend a "pass" or not - or - somebodyl finding another doctor (or not.)

 

My whole point is that people excuse lateness when it suits them and have a fit when it doesn't.

 

So... since people are so fickle, why would anyone care to modify their actions solely based on another's expectation or perception of what's appropriate? or what they think/ assume it says about you?

[Running the race]

I think some people are naturally more punctual than others, but it is a life skill that needs to mastered.

[keptwoman]

I have to report on our first trial of "load time" It was last night when 4 out of 5 family members had to be at 4 different scouting events at 4 different places.

We needed to leave at 6.45, so load time was 6.30

Just before 6.30 I got a call about a parent who couldn't come, so I had to call a back up AND pack some gear in case I needed to be back up. Then I remembered I had to print off some papers, I was able to do it all and get out of the door by 6.45 and we were on time!

 

So first load time was a great success!! Definitely adopting it. Now all I need to do is get my kids to ask me if they can help instead of mucking about when I'm frantically sorting stuff out.

[TravelingChris]

Okay, quick question= I understand punctuality at things like appointments, games, field trips, etc. I concur on punctuality at these type of things. But when the talk turns to social events, what kind are you talking about? Because I always understood that you should be about ten or fifteen minutes late to a party, not there at the exact right time. So no, I don't go to events like parties, baby showers, etc. at the right time but slightly later.

[HS Mom in NC]

For some people it comes naturally. They tend to be realists who analyze when things don't go right and adapt to situations. They tend to think ahead on their own. They are by nature more proactive. They get that it's not an ideal world, that you should expect the unexpected, that anything that can go wrong will go wrong, etc. They understand that what they do can affect other people around them.

 

For others it's a life skill that needs learning. They have to be taught to do the things listed above.

[angela in ohio]

Okay, quick question= I understand punctuality at things like appointments, games, field trips, etc. I concur on punctuality at these type of things. But when the talk turns to social events, what kind are you talking about? Because I always understood that you should be about ten or fifteen minutes late to a party, not there at the exact right time. So no, I don't go to events like parties, baby showers, etc. at the right time but slightly later.

 

I always thought that was just so you would look like you were too important/busy/cool to be on time (fashionably late.) There is nothing worse than that feeling of, "Okay, the party has started, why is no one here yet?" I wouldn't want to do that to someone. OTOH, I don't arrive early, because I assume people are doing last-minute prep (unless I have asked, and they want help.)

 

I always arrive on time, but I don't care if anyone thinks I'm fashionable. :D

[Kirch]

Okay, quick question= I understand punctuality at things like appointments, games, field trips, etc. I concur on punctuality at these type of things. But when the talk turns to social events, what kind are you talking about? Because I always understood that you should be about ten or fifteen minutes late to a party, not there at the exact right time. So no, I don't go to events like parties, baby showers, etc. at the right time but slightly later.

 

I don't mind people coming a bit late to a social event, as long as there's not something starting close to the start time (i.e. a movie or something) that would be thrown off by a latecomer. It does bother me sometimes if I'm meeting a friend for lunch (or something else 1-on-1)--if they're more than a few minutes late, I'm stuck wondering if they forgot, wondering if I should call and check or if that will be perceived as rude/impatient . . . It's a frustrating situation to be in.

 

My BIL and SIL & family, however, are frequently 1 - 2+ hours late for family events. That's a bit much, although we've learned to just go ahead and start without them--if they miss something, they miss it (well, I've learned it. MIL is getting better at it!). The frustrating thing with them is that I think they often *know* they won't really be able to make it by the agreed-on time. So why don't they SAY so?!?!

[HLDoll]

I've always been punctual; it was bred in my bones as my mother is very Type A and sees it as a matter of respect all around. I'm sure glad I learned that lesson early in life. My first job after college, my boss told me, "If you're early, you're on time. If you're on time, you're late. If you're late, don't bother." That served me well in the business world. With regards to personal transactions with teachers/tutors, habitual lateness would be grounds for severing the relationship. If it happens repeatedly, it shows you have no time management skills and I don't care to have you chronically mismanaging my time. I manage to coordinate 5 people's schedules fairly well and I can't afford to have someone else throwing us off on a regular basis. It's unprofessional and disrespectful. If you habitually run over lesson times, then it's your job to build a buffer between your lessons so you can get back on track. If that means you take fewer students, teach fewer lessons, that's the price you need to pay for your habit. But to expect everyone else to accomodate just because you feel your better at what you do is very self-centered. And when you're being hired to do a job, it's not all about you. Like someone else said, you likely have expectations from your students, and if they consistently don't meet them, wouldn't it bother you?

[HS Mom in NC]

What makes you assume you are the only quality teacher around? Most hsers have access to many quality hired teachers. Why bother with a quality teacher that is late when there is another quality teacher who is on time?

 

Based on your assumption that it's a choice between either tardiness or low quality, you are feeding the assumption that your tardiness is rooted in a character flaw.

[catz]

I have actually not read all 20 pages of this thread, but coincidentally I just read this article off a link I saw for the gifted homeschoolers forum in facebook. Gives me some new perspective on people who are chronically late.

 

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/livinghealth/920265-224/adult-diagnosis-of-adhd-among-women-may.html

[Jean in Newcastle]

..

Edited May 23, 2011 by Jean in Newcastle

[Sputterduck]

Ester Maria, you need to move here. Nothing happens on time, ever. Time isn't really a solid here, it's more of a liquid.

 

Honest to goodness, when you have to have someone arrive on time, you tell them "9 am, American time." Then they take your timetable seriously and will probably show up within 2 hours of the stated time. I'm not exaggerating, at all.

 

I think that the heart attack rate here is probably lower than in America because no one stresses over getting anywhere on time.:lol: The only thing anyone cares about is that things get done eventually. You'd be the most punctual person around. Freaking out about punctuality really is a cultural construct.

[Karis]

Freaking out about punctuality really is a cultural construct.

 

;)

[JennyD]

 

Honest to goodness, when you have to have someone arrive on time, you tell them "9 am, American time." Then they take your timetable seriously and will probably show up within 2 hours of the stated time. I'm not exaggerating, at all.

 

 

 

This is kind of awesome, although I imagine it takes a bit of getting used to. Did you spend the first however months going to places and then being like, "Hey, where is everybody?"

[HS Mom in NC]

Wow... a bit shocked by the answers. :001_unsure: Thank you for your replies, however.

 

Would it not matter the least bit if I was really the best around in what I did? Would punctuality, and thus professionality, for you come even at expense of expertise and having to go with the lower quality?

 

 

Many Americans consider it rude to waste another person's time unless it's an emergency. Why? Because it sends the message "Your time is not as important as my time/me." This is perceived as arrogant and selfish by many people, including me. No one should have to wait around because of me. I'm not the center of the universe. My children have to be taught that they aren't either. We can plan to be on time for a scheduled event without rushing the kids around and yelling at them. The younger they are, the more of our time we spend getting ready and getting loaded in the car so we don't take up anyone else's time.

 

 

Your hypothetical assumes there is not more than one high quality option available. I have a very hard time believing that most situations require the absolute best person available and that person cannot possibly be expected to respect other people's time (a non-renewable resource.) If we were talking about wasting other resources like money, I have a feeling no one would be using terms like "social constructs." For many people, time is money or is at least as precious a resource.

 

Between hourly wages, tough work deadlines, and running a business, many cannot afford to spend time waiting around when they could be spending their limited time doing something of value-earning more money or spending what little free time they have on something valuable like family time, study time, etc. My husband's time is so incredibly limited he cannot waste any of it right now.

 

If you live in a country or community with not much going on and no consequences for tardiness, then good for you. Enjoy it. Those of us who live in most American communities live in a world where time matters whether we like it or not.

 

I have personally taken a 5:30 am call to watch my nephew when his mom and dad (my brother) had a miscommunication about dates and times. They both work for Intel on opposite shifts and are only allowed a certain number of times they can be late without being fired. I took their son so she could get to work for her 6:00 am 12 hour shift.

 

Our Art Class teacher is only available in our area on Tuesday afternoons-if you want to take Art Class within an hour's drive of my neighborhood you better get yourself there on Tuesdays from 1:30-3:30. He teaches another class later in the early evening evening at a college 20 miles away. What about students at his college who have a class after his? Is it OK for me to throw his time off and in turn he throws theirs off? I have to think of people other than myself and the effect I am having on them.

 

The woman who hosts Art Class at her house has a child in dance class (she has to choose from the days and times the studio offers and advanced classes for her teenage daughter are on early Tuesday evenings) and she teaches violin to a student who can only come over after Art Class (when her mom picks up her older siblings from Art Class.) Other participants have kids at other hs events in the general area, so they have to coordinate dropping off and picking up based on the start and stop times that are staggered. Drop kid A at Geography co-op, take kids B-G to Art Class, pick up kid A and get back to Art Class to pick up kids B-G before it's over. There are no other days or times for a Geography Co-op in the area. Welcome to America.

 

My kids go to a piano studio that is booked from 8:30 am-7pm (with 1 hour off for lunch) 3 days a week. The teachers substitute teaches at ps the other two days. Throw off one start time and a dozen other people have to deal with it. She runs like clockwork. If the parent can't be bothered with picking up on time (or an emergency happens forcing mom to be late) the kids can sit idly and wait-not the students who show up and leave on time.

 

My time slot (8:30 am) was based on trading with another hs mom whose son's time is based around his community college classes around the corner. His piano class can't run over because he'll be late for his community college class (as a minor student he has fewer options because teacher approval for minor students is required in classes with no adult content) and there were no time slots available at the piano studio after his classes. The studio has had a waiting list for years and he's been a student since before he started at community college as a minor-changing to a new teacher year into it should only be done out of absolute necessity.) His mother has to schedule his community college classes around her availability to drive him and all the other things she is doing with her other hs kids.

 

She traded with me a few years ago so my kids could attend a PE Class nearby starting 1/2 an hour after piano lessons. If she hadn't, there would not have been a PE option for my kids on my side of the PHX area-I would have had to drive 1+ hours. If our piano time ran late, then my kids would have missed out on the stretching/warmup part of PE. Something the coach would have complained about. I've heard him complain to chronically late parents.

 

My daughter's archery classes do not allow for frequent tardiness. The archery coach specifically said punctuality is one of the important characteristics they look for (along with positive attitude, willingness to learn) that shows respect for others. Without all of those characteristics the kids are not allowed to participate in advanced or competitive classes-it's invitation only. That, and the coaches rent the range where the kids have the class and the range has rental fees that are based on time-if they go over they have to pay more out of pocket.

 

Only in cases of seeing a medical professional (or something of similar importance) are people willing to tolerate tardiness because patients who have to be fit in can't predict it. Doctors cannot predict how much time each patient will require since some people need more time for questions and discussions over medical issues. Dr. appointments and co-ops/classes are not comparable.

 

It's perfectly fine to plan events that are time flexible-but you have to say so up front. If you set a time and do not clarify that the actual start time and/or end is different, then you're being rude. If you say so in the first place you're being polite and no one has anything to complain about. If they can't afford flex time then they can choose not to participate in the first place.

[KidsHappen]

it was clear that her estimates were just wildly off,

 

a weird kind of time delusion.

 

I have a child that suffers from this same sort of weird time delusion that makes her estimates wildly off. She seems to take the shortest amount of time to do any given task as the standard even if it normally takes twice as long. For instance, one time I made it from my house to the airport in about 30 minutes, so she thinks that it only takes 30 minutes to go to the airport even though that one time was a fluke and the hundred other times we have been to airport have taken at least 45 minutes. Being late 100 times would not clue her in to the fact that she is the reason why she is always late. Her perception of time is just off. This seems to be an inborn trait. Her father and I are obsessively on time (early even) and while her sisters aren't as obsessive as my hubby and I, they at least seem to understand the concept of being on time and how long it takes to do something. :confused:

[keptwoman]

UG, this thread is beginning to feel like flogging a dead horse. 200 posts telling Ester Maria that Americans like punctuality and see anything else as disrespectful. OK, we get it. We might not agree, but we get it. Please stop, the horse died 2 days ago.

[Sputterduck]

This is kind of awesome, although I imagine it takes a bit of getting used to. Did you spend the first however months going to places and then being like, "Hey, where is everybody?"

 

Actually, everyone I met when I was new made sure to warn me about this. It's extremely hard for Americans to understand. Time just isn't much of a consideration and if you make a stink about it they shrug, look at you funny, and ask why should it matter.

 

You plan days to get something done, not hours. Like this - The school house needed a door put in so we hired someone. He showed up in a few days at some random time and did part of the work and then showed up a couple days later to finish. If someone were to have mentioned after the work was done that he didn't show up the day he was asked to, he would have gone :001_huh: and said "Why should it matter, the work is done?" I don't really know if this is unique to my area or if it is generally part of Mexican culture.

 

Americans do get used to it and start to fall into the culture. One or two hours late is the generally accepted time for everyone I know. The exception being church which starts about 15 or 30 minutes late and half of the people come in 30 minutes to an hour late. It's not because people are rude or don't care. Time is just a fluid thing and no one feels they have to be inflexible about it. But church is important, so you should show up for at least part of it. lol

 

And... yeah, at first I showed up to the camp for the food ministry at 10 am like I was told only to find out that nobody comes til 11:00-12:30 and we'd show up at church on time only to be the only people there besides the pastor.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Sputterduck

[unsinkable]

 

 

Welcome to America.

 

 

 

:patriot:

 

You forgot the flag. :glare:

[Jenny in Florida]

Ester Maria, I'm not saying you should rush and hurry, freak out and cause a near-accident to be somewhere at 5:00 and not 5:15. I just don't understand why continuously-tardy people can't plan around that.

 

That's what baffles me, too.

 

I live in Orlando, a medium-sized city with LOTS of traffic during certain times of the day. In addition to the normal heavy traffic times, our main highways can get horrifically jammed unpredictably when there is an accident.

 

Until this month, we lived about 20 miles from the downtown area, which is where most of my son's activities and classes happen. On a good day, the drive would take 25 minutes. On a bad day, it could be an hour. I regularly left our home 45 minutes before the scheduled start time of any activity and was almost never late for anything. Very occasionally, there would be a big problem that would make the drive longer, and when that happened, if I couldn't figure out an alternate route, I would use my cell phone (with Bluetooth) to call whoever was running the class and let them know he'd be late.

 

It's not an ego thing for me, but a reality thing. The truth is that we are busy people. I'm sure many folks here look down their noses at us "overscheduled" families. However, I have kids who NEED to be busy. They are extremely bright and passionate about the things they do. They have always gotten plenty of schoolwork done at home (at an accelerated pace) and still have more than enough time and energy to do lots of other things, too. We often have things "stacked" or scheduled one after the other, because it's the only way to fit them into our lives. If one person runs late and simply expects us to be able to wait, that person inconveniences us and every single other person or group who is scheduled afterward.

 

For us "overscheduled" families, this is honestly a big deal.

 

Plus, it's just plain irritating. And if this is someone I'm paying to do a job, it's completely fair for me to expect them to do it in a way that doesn't cause me inconvenience and stress.

 

I'm not suggesting that chronically late people are awful. I'm not making any judgement whatsoever about their character. I'm simply saying I would not choose to continue doing business with a person who was never or rarely on time.

[Jenny in Florida]

If there are people that are chronically late and you know it, what is the big deal? You know they are late most of the time. Do what you are doing and they will fall in when they get there. Not showing up is totally different. Then you are waiting for someone who you think is coming but who never actually does.

 

Sure, but the problem is that with so many people chronically late, those of us who do show up on time (or at all) never know for sure what is happening. Are these people just late? Or are they coming at all? If we have a group rate at the museum and we are 15 minutes past the scheduled time and the docent is waiting for us, do we all wait around hoping (assuming) that the others will get there? Or do we suck it up, pay the higher rate (because we assume the others arent' coming) and then find out later that they did arrive after all?

 

It's rude to keep people waiting without letting them know what to expect. It just is.

 

And for all those who build in all this extra time to account for every eventuality, you get there 15 minutes early and are now sitting and waiting. Why is that so superior to sitting and waiting 15 minutes on the other side to allow grace for someone who struggles with punctuality?

 

Because that is under my control. If I know I can't reliably get somewhere on time, I don't make that schedule. So, if I know it might take something between 15 and 30 minutes to get somewhere, and I know that, realistically, I can devote only 20 to that drive, I don't sign the kid up for that class.

 

All in all, I find the whole thing kind of silly. Strict schedule keepers probably generally gravitate to strict schedule keepers. Relaxed folks probably gravitate to relaxed folks.

 

Exactly. So, as a strict scheduler, I would avoid signing my child up for lessons with a "relaxed" teacher. It's not an insult. It's a preference. As long as there are enough "relaxed" clients available to fill the teacher's schedule, she really shouldn't have a problem with my preference for finding someone who will be on time.

[Jenny in Florida]

Sort of roaming with that idea - if you (random anyone, no one specificlaly) *knew* that the stress of being on time and punctual to every event and appointment and social gathering was going to eliminate 5 years from your life, would it still matter so much? What about your spouse's life? Or your dc's life? Would it still matter if you knew that the stress was making your heart work harder while your cortisol levels shot up, would you still care so much about your own (and other peoples') punctuality?

 

Just curious... :lurk5:

 

But we can turn this around just as easily: If you knew that your chronic lateness was causing someone else stress and potentially (in a small way) affecting their health, would you still be so helpless managing your time?

 

From many of the comments here, I'm going to say the answer to that is yes.

 

Or, we could do it this way: If you knew that doing business with someone who was chronically late was causing you stress that might eventually add up and eliminate some years from your life, would you continue to do business with that person?

[Jenny in Florida]

I don't understand it either. Not at all. This is not to say that I don't understand that stuff happens. But why does stuff always seem to happen to the same person EVERY TIME?

 

See, for those of us who like to be on time, it looks exactly as "me-centered" and "self-absorbed" that the person who is late is taking his or her own sweet time because he or she "doesn't want to stress."

 

How is that less selfish?

[Ester Maria]

Ester Maria, you need to move here. Nothing happens on time, ever. Time isn't really a solid here, it's more of a liquid. [...] You'd be the most punctual person around.

Good to know! :lol:

 

I am not familiar with the modus operandi in Mexico, but in Europe, a general rule of the thumb is that the the more Southern and the more Eastern you go on the map, the more relaxed about time people are. Italy has been changing and "westernizing" (it feels weird saying so about a fundamentally Western culture, but you get what I mean) in the recent decade or two, but it is still one of the promised lands for us tardies, especially South (God willing, we will soon be there). Greece is another promised land, basically all of traditional Mediterranean is just... good. Not so "overboard" as in Mexico I think (i.e. even we have our "red lines", they are just much further than the typical American red lines), but just the right amount of flexibility for me. :tongue_smilie: I hope you are enjoying it in Mexico!

 

Sigh... I do not get it... y'all LOVE Mediterranean, sigh at all the photos of those small coastal cities, swear by Napoli and Herakleion, dream of holidays in our countries, comment how great it is to have a relaxed approach to life where the most common expressions are "it'll be good, no worries", etc... and at the same time, you could truly never live there with this rigidity regarding time.

Your hypothetical assumes there is not more than one high quality option available. I have a very hard time believing that most situations require the absolute best person available and that person cannot possibly be expected to respect other people's time (a non-renewable resource.) If we were talking about wasting other resources like money, I have a feeling no one would be using terms like "social constructs." For many people, time is money or is at least as precious a resource.

First I asked whether being late was a big deal. You guys said yes. Fine.

Then I asked, hypothetically, would you, if faced with a considerably better option (who does with your child 2X or 3X as opposed to typical X in one year) who was habitually late (but willing to set things straight the way your money is NOT lost) and many worse options (X-level), still opt for a worse option because of the better option being late.

 

I am not interested in concrete situations, unless you really had *that one*. I am not interested in debating whether I "truly" was the best expert in my field where I live(d), whether somebody really "needed" that level of expertise if other options did a solid X-job too... I am only interested, as a sort of thought experiment, in seeing how far are you willing to go with the attitude that time matters, WHEN your money is NOT compromised.

 

There are various ways how not to compromise your money.

If we have 60-hour slots, I can begin later and finish later, if that is fine with your schedule. OR, if NOT (for there is always another solution), I can begin later and finish just on time, make a mental note of how much time I "owe" you and "repay" it in subsequent lessons... so if you frequently end up with 45-minute lessons rather than 60-minute lessons, after three of those you get one free. Your TIME is still not compromised - your schedule is NOT off track... nor is your MONEY compromised (especially if people are more stringent about it, like me, who would probably give you a free hour even before you "earned" it, so you would end up generally in a plus. And your kid STILL gets a superior service.

 

It is in the context of THAT that I mentioned the ego thing - if I really do not mess up your schedule or money in any way, and your kid still gets a superior service, are you really willing to turn down such a service only because somebody is habitually late (prennounced, I repeat, YOU WERE WARNED in advance)? In other words, in your culture of "professionalism", I am interested in how far are you willing to let the FORM decide rather than the CONTENT. If the CONTENT is the same but you prefer one FORM, I understand your preference. But that is not what we are talking about now. I am explicitly asking about tangibly better service, which is only packed in a FORM that is not to your taste. But everything else is fine (time and money, no messing up with your schedule, etc.). I am interested in where your red lines really are, because I suspect that in many such cases they are actually further removed than you let on. :tongue_smilie:

It's perfectly fine to plan events that are time flexible-but you have to say so up front.

I just remind everyone, again, that we ARE talking about a situation where you know about it in advance. And in that hypothetical situation, I am interested in whether you would still refuse higher quality ONLY because of tardiness which does NOT mess up your money or schedule.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Ester Maria

[LaxMom]

But we can turn this around just as easily: If you knew that your chronic lateness was causing someone else stress and potentially (in a small way) affecting their health, would you still be so helpless managing your time?

 

From many of the comments here, I'm going to say the answer to that is yes.

 

Or, we could do it this way: If you knew that doing business with someone who was chronically late was causing you stress that might eventually add up and eliminate some years from your life, would you continue to do business with that person?

 

See, for those of us who like to be on time, it looks exactly as "me-centered" and "self-absorbed" that the person who is late is taking his or her own sweet time because he or she "doesn't want to stress."

 

How is that less selfish?

:iagree: I try to conduct my life mindful that my actions (or inactions) affect others. I find it stressful to inconvenience others or let them down by not meeting the commitment I've made to them.

 

Now, as others have said, if I'm meeting friends to play, we set the time for x-ish. No sweat if anyone arrives before or after that time. If I am invited to a social engagement at someone's home, I will not arrive early because I assume they would still be readying themselves for guests (we've parked around the corner at times to avoid that).

 

"Professionals" do not get a pass at being habitually late. If there is an emergency, I completely understand, in the same way someone I was meeting socially would have my understanding with an unforeseen delay such as a flat tire. Otherwise, I expect my doctor to more or less run on time. And I am clear with the receptionist what I am coming in for, so she can block out appropriate time.

 

Our electrician calls to tell me exactly when to expect him, even though I already know he has breakfast with his granddaughter and takes her to school before beginning his work day and that he will be along shortly after. The Verizon guy has, for the past 11 years, called my mobile when he is about 30 minutes out, as have the guys who service our furnace and the plumber. (Though the plumber was found sitting in front of the house 30 minutes before his 8 am scheduled arrival one morning because he didn't want to mess us up.) We appreciate that, especially since we live in an area where people seem to have a very fluid relationship with time... and day of the week. :glare:

 

ETA: Ester Maria - my annoyance with lack of timeliness does not apply to situations you have described. Knowing a lesson is happening in my home, the prior and following 30 minutes would be blocked out anyway, for prep and finish. You obviously can't arrive, conduct a 60 minute lesson, pack up and take your leave in an hour.

Edited May 23, 2011 by MyCrazyHouse

[Sputterduck]

Good to know! :lol:

 

I am not familiar with the modus operandi in Mexico, but in Europe, a general rule of the thumb is that the the more Southern and the more Eastern you go on the map, the more relaxed about time people are. Italy has been changing and "westernizing" (it feels weird saying so about a fundamentally Western culture, but you get what I mean) in the recent decade or two, but it is still one of the promised lands for us tardies, especially South (God willing, we will soon be there). Greece is another promised land, basically all of traditional Mediterranean is just... good. Not so "overboard" as in Mexico I think (i.e. even we have our "red lines", they are just much further than the typical American red lines), but just the right amount of flexibility for me. :tongue_smilie: I hope you are enjoying it in Mexico!

 

Sigh... I do not get it... y'all LOVE Mediterranean, sigh at all the photos of those small coastal cities, swear by Napoli and Herakleion, dream of holidays in our countries, comment how great it is to have a relaxed approach to life where the most common expressions are "it'll be good, no worries", etc... and at the same time, you could truly never live there with this rigidity regarding time.

 

I am enjoying it here! It's so relaxing, and I'm beginning to think that it really must be a healthier way to live. I can take time to listen to the waves or watch a bird flying and if that makes me a little late, well, my life is richer and more meaningful for it.

 

I know what you mean about people yearning for a more relaxed lifestyle and then turning around and freaking out about the rudeness of of someone being 15 minutes late. It doesn't make sense.

[cindergretta]

But we can turn this around just as easily: If you knew that your chronic lateness was causing someone else stress and potentially (in a small way) affecting their health, would you still be so helpless managing your time?

 

From many of the comments here, I'm going to say the answer to that is yes.

 

Or, we could do it this way: If you knew that doing business with someone who was chronically late was causing you stress that might eventually add up and eliminate some years from your life, would you continue to do business with that person?

 

Nope, it doesn't work like that. I am responsible for my actions. The only person in the world I can control is me. I am not responsible for someone else being uptight and stressed. I'm just not. With that train of thought, I better keep my dc out of public because some people are stressed by children. I better only wear dresses that cover me collar bone to wrist to ankle because some men will lust after me if they see any skin. I am not going to add to my own stress load because that person over there gets wrapped around the axle of every detail of every little thing. If she is uptight and doesn't want her life shortened by stress, she can relax. But she cannot expect me to get all stressed so she doesn't have to. The thing is, she is choosing to allow herself to be stressed. I am not forcing it on her.

[Jenny in Florida]

Nope, it doesn't work like that. I am responsible for my actions. The only person in the world I can control is me. I am not responsible for someone else being uptight and stressed. I'm just not. With that train of thought, I better keep my dc out of public because some people are stressed by children. I better only wear dresses that cover me collar bone to wrist to ankle because some men will lust after me if they see any skin. I am not going to add to my own stress load because that person over there gets wrapped around the axle of every detail of every little thing. If she is uptight and doesn't want her life shortened by stress, she can relax. But she cannot expect me to get all stressed so she doesn't have to. The thing is, she is choosing to allow herself to be stressed. I am not forcing it on her.

 

Edit: After I clicked to post this, I realized it sounds more harsh than I intended. I don't have time to fix it right now, though. I hope everyone who reads it can "hear" the tone I have in my head!

 

Okay, so everyone should just be able to do whatever you want and it's someone else's problem if they get hurt?

 

An extreme example: I'm going to drive right through that stoplight, then, because I want to do so and it's easier for me. If someone happens to be driving the other way, hey, it's their problem if they are so uptight that they expect to be able to drive safely by following the rules.

 

I don't think naturally punctual people can simply "relax" any more than the chronically late people can simply "be on time." In fact, I'd argue that it's harder, because stress is an emotional reaction and lateness is a habit.

 

No one is suggesting that the chronically late folks have to change their behavior. (Or, at least, I have not suggested that.) All I've said all along is that, when given a choice, I choose to deal with people who respect my time. So, I no longer participate in homeschool groups, because the chronic lack of punctuality and committment made it impossible to do anything worthwhile. I have changed doctors when I got sick of waiting for every appointment. And I would not choose to hire a tutor who either let me know up front that she couldn't promise to be on time for most appointments or consistently failed to do so.

 

You're all free to behave as you like. And the rest of us are free to not interact.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Jenny in Florida