May I vent here before I say something I regret IRL?

[plain jane]

My oldest is horrible at math. There. I said it. :o

 

I've tried it all with her. Okay, not all, but... we've tried manipulatives, we've tried without. We've done Horizons for 3 years with SM (from K-4a). She hit road block after road block getting through 4a, this after doing both 2b two complete times and 3a two complete times. :chillpill:- this wasn't out of punishment, but it was clear the material didn't sink in or stick so I figured it was best to go over it again. She did do better with it both times on the second time through.

 

So, I thought maybe it's the SM. Maybe my child just doesn't think that way. Maybe we'll try Saxon. I give her placement test and she places into 7/6 but I put her into 6/5 anyways. She starts it and loves it. Math takes her over an hour but she enjoys it.

 

BUT- the marks are not going up. There are careless mistakes everywhere. :glare: Ridiculous things that she knows. Then there are other mistakes of things she "pretends" to understand because heaven forbid this child ever ask for help or admit she can't understand something. :banghead:

 

Test scores in Saxon are only minimally better than they were with SM despite it being easier material & all stuff she's already covered in SM. :001_huh:

 

Yesterday she did a lesson of SM and bombed. Okay, not bombed, but got 20/30. Not acceptable. I make her redo the lesson. She does. No complaints- I just explain to her that obviously she doesn't understand, please ask me questions or watch the Saxon Teacher DVDs again and work through it. She does.

 

I mark her work. She gets 20/30 again. BUT, here's the thing- she got 10 different questions wrong. Oh yes. Only 2 were the same questions but 8 of them were ones she got correct yesterday. :blink:

 

I'm going to scream. But I won't. :tongue_smilie: I want to cry and at the moment I can't guarantee that I won't do that.

 

I don't. know. what. to. do. with. this. child.

 

I just spent a small fortune on Saxon and gosh, it's really no better than SM. She's not getting it. I can give her the same sheet over and over again and honestly it's like hit or miss if she'll get the stuff correct. I don't know what's going on in her head.

 

I feel like such a failure. I can't teach my child basic arithmetic. I don't know what to do. Okay, maybe a good cry will help.

 

Thanks for letting me vent. I feel so deflated. :(

[nmoira]

:grouphug:

[JudoMom]

How is she doing on the tests?

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

Do you sit down with her and watch her do the problems? Is she rushing? Maybe if you try sitting right there with her and say things like "Wait a minute, look at that again" or something similar she will slow down and pay attention? I had to do that with my now 7th grader for almost a year. Once I got her past the silly mistakes it was wonderful.

 

But for now :grouphug:

[AvasMom]

I feel ya. Exact. Same. Deal. with my 7th grader. :banghead:

[plain jane]

Do you sit down with her and watch her do the problems? Is she rushing? Maybe if you try sitting right there with her and say things like "Wait a minute, look at that again" or something similar she will slow down and pay attention? I had to do that with my now 7th grader for almost a year. Once I got her past the silly mistakes it was wonderful.

 

But for now :grouphug:

 

I do sit with her as much as I can and we definitely to corrections together, but I have 4 other kids besides her. I can't be there all the time when it takes her an hour to do a lesson. :( Plus my child in grade one does RS and that's demanding enough of my time.

[Lolosoli]

She sounds very similar to my daughter....and you sound how I was a couple of years back.

 

What made a tremendous and wonderful difference for my daughter and I was Math-U-See.

 

She'd watch the video and do the first page of the lesson. If she aced it she then did a sheet from the review section. If not she just worked through the next one or two pages. Once she aces the review section then she moves on to the test. She truly loves doing it this way. She's able to fully master concepts and move at her own pace.

 

Any questions she doesn't get right are circled and she has to do them again OR if it is obvious she may have written the wrong answer for simple addition/subtraction or multiplication or whatever (writing 25 instead of 52) I'll verbally ask her the question.

 

MUS has made a world of difference in helping her not make silly mistakes. There's enough questions to keep things proper...but, not enough to overwhelm her. It took 14 years...but, she's finally grasping math and loving it...and I love teaching it! I wish we would have found MUS sooner.

[zookeeperof3]

My 6th grader is the same way.:banghead: I call my dh almost daily over our math woes.

[regentrude]

Then there are other mistakes of things she "pretends" to understand because heaven forbid this child ever ask for help or admit she can't understand something.

...

Yesterday she did a lesson of SM and bombed. Okay, not bombed, but got 20/30. Not acceptable. I make her redo the lesson. She does. No complaints- I just explain to her that obviously she doesn't understand, please ask me questions or watch the Saxon Teacher DVDs again and work through it. She does...

I mark her work. She gets 20/30 again. BUT, here's the thing- she got 10 different questions wrong. Oh yes. Only 2 were the same questions but 8 of them were ones she got correct yesterday.

 

Maybe the way she is "working" the lesson does not really work.

Instead of having her work through the book, I would sit next to her and have her explain each problem to me: what steps she is doing, why she is doing them. Talking about math can help her in different ways: she may understand it while she narrates the problem (I see this happen with my students all the time), or it may help her see where she does not understand something and gives you a chance to begin a discussion about the issue.

Just redoing the lesson is obviously not effective.

Also, when she does problems, have her write down every.single.step. Do not let her do stuff in her head.

[rlugbill]

Hi,

 

Sounds like a frustrating situation. I don't know your daughter, but for some kids, math is so abstract that it isn't really real = doesn't matter. So, they are careless and lack interest.

 

I suggest alternating between doing your curriculum and doing some "fun math", such as playing games that involve math, doing the Family Math book, Mathmania, on-line math games, math software games, etc. It makes math more real to kids- less abstract and therefore has more meaning and they are less likely to make careless errors.

 

I know you'll be concerned about "getting behind" because of time spent away from the curriculum, but you need to think more long term. Over the long run, your dd will master the material much better and will do much better in math if you add in some fun math than if you just stick to the curriculum all the time.

 

I hope this is helpful.

 

Best wishes.

[JudoMom]

I do sit with her as much as I can and we definitely to corrections together, but I have 4 other kids besides her. I can't be there all the time when it takes her an hour to do a lesson. :( Plus my child in grade one does RS and that's demanding enough of my time.

 

:grouphug:

[plain jane]

Maybe the way she is "working" the lesson does not really work.

Instead of having her work through the book, I would sit next to her and have her explain each problem to me: what steps she is doing, why she is doing them. Talking about math can help her in different ways: she may understand it while she narrates the problem (I see this happen with my students all the time), or it may help her see where she does not understand something and gives you a chance to begin a discussion about the issue.

Just redoing the lesson is obviously not effective.

Also, when she does problems, have her write down every.single.step. Do not let her do stuff in her head.

 

Yup. she does write down all the steps.

 

Really, it comes down to sloppy mistakes a lot of the time more than complete lack of understanding. BUt she also rushes through things and doesn't read what the question is actually asking of her. It's so incredibly frustrating.

[ondreeuh]

Since she's getting different problems wrong when she re-does the lesson, it makes me wonder if this is less about actually not understanding the math, and more about paying attention (ADD?) or being careful & not rushing. Is it an attitude thing, or an honest inability to be organized & careful? Only you know. Is she this way in other subjects?

 

My own does does not score as well as he should (his scores don't reflect what he really knows) and I don't get too worried about it at this point since he is really trying to be careful and has difficulty concentrating. I extend him a little grace and give him a chance to correct problems. Sometimes if there are other issues at play, you have to adjust your expectations a little and that's ok. :)

[plain jane]

Hi,

 

Sounds like a frustrating situation. I don't know your daughter, but for some kids, math is so abstract that it isn't really real = doesn't matter. So, they are careless and lack interest.

 

I suggest alternating between doing your curriculum and doing some "fun math", such as playing games that involve math, doing the Family Math book, Mathmania, on-line math games, math software games, etc. It makes math more real to kids- less abstract and therefore has more meaning and they are less likely to make careless errors.

 

I know you'll be concerned about "getting behind" because of time spent away from the curriculum, but you need to think more long term. Over the long run, your dd will master the material much better and will do much better in math if you add in some fun math than if you just stick to the curriculum all the time.

 

I hope this is helpful.

 

Best wishes.

 

 

yes, this. Definitely. This is a huge part of the problem.

[ChrissySC]

In these situations, I had my student tell me how to do the problem. I made her say her math aloud while solving. This made her slow down, and I knew when she didn't know. :) It is tedious. Cut the number of problems given to a minimum. Let her speak aloud for the tests too. She may not be "listening" or "reading."

 

I found I do this now with my second too. I had her saying aloud every mental thought to find the solution.

[unsinkable]

Did you say how old she is?

 

You both might need a more traditional approach than Saxon. With a traditional program, you could teach the lesson in 15 minutes and then watch her do 15 minutes of problems to make sure she is doing them correctly. Then she could do work of the same type of problems on her own.

 

IOW, if the lesson is on LCMs, then her entire focus is on LCMs instead of jumping all over like Saxon does.

[Alphabetika]

:grouphug: Don't despair! I felt the same way about my oldest when she was young, complicated by my own lack of math skills and general fear of math. Lo and behold, a friend of mine who teaches math agreed to take her on, and it has made all the difference. She excelled at algebra last year and this year is excelling at geometry and algebra 2, considering taking calculus with her teacher next year. She has told me more than once that she feels like something in her brain clicked when she was about 14 or 15 (she's now nearly 17) and mathematical abstracts made sense to her. So, take heart!

[plain jane]

How is she doing on the tests?

 

Honestly, she's only done 5 since we've only been doing Saxon for one month. Her average is 85% for the ones she's done. This is no better or worse than her scores with SM. :001_huh:

[4wildberrys]

:grouphug: I totally understand. BTDT...dd is graduating this year! And made it through (barely) Algebra 1. Doing her Consumer Math today, she asked how much a dime is worth again? :tongue_smilie: She's an awesome artist and extremely intelligent in every other area.

[plain jane]

Did you say how old she is?

 

You both might need a more traditional approach than Saxon. With a traditional program, you could teach the lesson in 15 minutes and then watch her do 15 minutes of problems to make sure she is doing them correctly. Then she could do work of the same type of problems on her own.

 

IOW, if the lesson is on LCMs, then her entire focus is on LCMs instead of jumping all over like Saxon does.

 

Do you mean a mastery program? What program would you recommend?

[plain jane]

:grouphug: I totally understand. BTDT...dd is graduating this year! And made it through (barely) Algebra 1. Doing her Consumer Math today, she asked how much a dime is worth again? :tongue_smilie: She's an awesome artist and extremely intelligent in every other area.

 

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. :svengo: I can't take another 8 years of this.:tongue_smilie:

[JudoMom]

Honestly, she's only done 5 since we've only been doing Saxon for one month. Her average is 85% for the ones she's done. This is no better or worse than her scores with SM. :001_huh:

 

Do you think she's being careless on her daily work or do you think she doesn't understand it?

[plain jane]

Do you think she's being careless on her daily work or do you think she doesn't understand it?

 

It's a mixture of both. Some of the errors are purely computation (eg. she did 24-18 = 8 :001_huh:) some are that she rushes through and doesn't read what the question really wants, some of it is that she doesn't finish the problem entirely - for example when doing double digit multiplication, she'll only complete one line, the blow her nose or whatever she does, then forgets to come back and finish, and some of the time she just doesn't get it.

 

One thing I have noticed since switching to Saxon is that her ability to do mental math has gone completely down the toilet. She loves that Saxon doesn't require her to think in that way and now she can't do it anymore when she used to be quite strong at mental math.

 

It's hard for me to figure what's going on with her. For example, doing fractions (I was sitting with her). She knows fractions need a common denominator to add BUT, sometimes she'll do this:

 

1/8 + 1/2 = 1/8 + 7/8 = because, well, we added 6 to the denominator in 1/2 to get 8 so we must add 6 to the numerator. :001_huh: Yet, on the next problem, she'll use multiples and do it properly. It seems to depend on the fraction with her. :001_huh: Sigh. But she's not consistently adding, kwim, it's like she turned her brain off for that problem and went on auto pilot. I just don't know.

 

One of her biggest issues is adding multiple numbers together. Any more than 2 numbers and she can rarely do it. WE practice and practice and practice but it's hit and miss. One day she'll add the numbers properly and the next day not. :001_huh:

 

I use to love math but this kid is making it seem so utterly painful. :tongue_smilie:

Edited April 6, 2011 by plain jane

[joannqn]

I'd use Math-U-See for a few different reasons:

 

1) It is a mastery program so you are only working on one concept at a time, and reviewing previous ones on the review pages. She is less likely to get side-tracked and confused on what to do when you are only doing one kind problem.

 

2) It's faster. You can do a lesson in 5-10 minutes. The early pages of the year take 10-15 minutes to complete. By the end of the year, it might take 20-30 minutes to complete. Less time means less boredom means less chance of getting distracted and getting things wrong for that reason.

 

3) The manipulatives...use them...every problem, if needed. It's hard to get the problems wrong when you are looking at the answer in concrete form in front of you.

 

 

ETA: It also sounds like it might be time to have her evaluated for learning disorders. There is a math form of dyslexia.

Edited April 6, 2011 by joannqn

[unsinkable]

Do you mean a mastery program? What program would you recommend?

 

The 2 that I have used are MCP Math and SRA Explorations & Applications but they only go thru 6th grade.

 

MCP is pretty simple and straightforward with write-in workbooks & TMs that you can get from CBD.

 

SRA are hardback books. I think I got them from follett.

 

But if she is past 6th grade, this post is useless. :tongue_smilie:

[plain jane]

I'd use Math-U-See for a few different reasons:

 

1) It is a mastery program so you are only working on one concept at a time, and reviewing previous ones on the review pages. She is less likely to get side-tracked and confused on what to do when you are only doing one kind problem.

 

2) It's faster. You can do a lesson in 5-10 minutes. The early pages of the year take 10-15 minutes to complete. By the end of the year, it might take 20-30 minutes to complete. Less time means less boredom means less chance of getting distracted and getting things wrong for that reason.

 

3) The manipulatives...use them...every problem, if needed. It's hard to get the problems wrong when you are looking at the answer in concrete form in front of you.

 

 

ETA: It also sounds like it might be time to have her evaluated for learning disorders. There is a math form of dyslexia.

 

Yes, I have heard of this- but do not know much about it. I'm going to have to do some more searching to see what sort of evaluations are available to me in my area.

 

We ran into issues with SM being a mastery program. She'd do beautifully with the topic and did well on the unit tests. But, once we got to more topics and there was a mid-year test, she would have forgotten how to do the first units well and did poorly on those sections of the test because the material was no longer fresh. I had to keep doing review and coming up with material to use as review (added in EP and IP books although IP was pretty hard for her) as well as MM here and there. Math was really becoming an ordeal for me to plan so that's why I thought we'd try out Saxon since it mixed things up a bit.

[fairfarmhand]

6 or t7th grader right?

 

I think my dd's brain does not wake up some mornings. We did the same thing, over and over.

 

I gave her an incentive to work carefully. 1 m and m for each problem worked correctly. It did improve her work, because she was more careful. I proved to her that she CAN do this when before she kept saying "I really AM doing my best." boohoo.

 

But I am calling the m and m experiment off now because she is developing a weight issue. :glare:

 

But I believe I did make the point that she was capable of working more carefully and getting it done right.

 

YMMV.

 

ETA: I started making my dd write her problems on graph paper and I got really anal about one number to the line too and this helped immensely as well.

Edited April 6, 2011 by fairfarmhand

[plain jane]

6 or t7th grader right?

 

I think my dd's brain does not wake up some mornings. We did the same thing, over and over.

 

I gave her an incentive to work carefully. 1 m and m for each problem worked correctly. It did improve her work, because she was more careful. I proved to her that she CAN do this when before she kept saying "I really AM doing my best." boohoo.

 

But I am calling the m and m experiment off now because she is developing a weight issue. :glare:

 

But I believe I did make the point that she was capable of working more carefully and getting it done right.

 

YMMV.

 

No, sorry, 4th grader.

 

I actually had a similar deal worked out with her. She would get 5c for every question correctly done but would have to pay me 25c for every wrong answer. I'd pay her (or some weeks, collect ;)) at the end of every week. But this didn't really help much. I should consider this again as she seems slightly more motivated by money lately now that she's saving up for an AG doll. :tongue_smilie:

[plain jane]

ETA: I started making my dd write her problems on graph paper and I got really anal about one number to the line too and this helped immensely as well.

 

Ack. Oh, I'm not going there with regards to her messy math work. :tongue_smilie: She uses graph paper for Saxon and while it has really helped her align her numbers properly (an issue before) and her work is somewhat neater (another issue before) she still manages to write sloppy numbers until I threaten her with copywork writing out numbers. Sigh.

[joannqn]

Yes, I have heard of this- but do not know much about it. I'm going to have to do some more searching to see what sort of evaluations are available to me in my area.

 

We ran into issues with SM being a mastery program. She'd do beautifully with the topic and did well on the unit tests. But, once we got to more topics and there was a mid-year test, she would have forgotten how to do the first units well and did poorly on those sections of the test because the material was no longer fresh. I had to keep doing review and coming up with material to use as review (added in EP and IP books although IP was pretty hard for her) as well as MM here and there. Math was really becoming an ordeal for me to plan so that's why I thought we'd try out Saxon since it mixed things up a bit.

 

 

Math-U-See lessons build on themselves. For most things, you can't forget the earlier material because you have to use it to do the newer material. All of the material is related to the major concept being taught that year. Conversions are taught with multiplication because you use multiplication to cover between units. You learn pi = 22/7 the year you learn fractions, and all of your circumference and area problems are written to work best with the fractional approximation of pi. You learn pie = 3.14 the year you learn decimals, and all of your circumference and area problems are written to work best with the decimal approximation of pi. Algebra with MUS is super simple also. Finding factors of a polynomial couldn't be easier because you build the polynomial with the manipulatives; the answer is illustrated right there in front of you. You graduate from manipulatives to just computing it with practice, but you can also go back to drawing what the manipulatives would have looked like if you need it. You understand math, even abstract math, concretely.

 

Every lesson of Math-U-See comes with three pages of the new material and three pages of review. You won't have to do the work of coming up with review material. If more practice is needed, you can print more worksheets for most of the lessons at the MUS website. They are randomly generated so there is an unlimited amount of practice you can print.

[unsinkable]

No, sorry, 4th grader.

 

I actually had a similar deal worked out with her. She would get 5c for every question correctly done but would have to pay me 25c for every wrong answer. I'd pay her (or some weeks, collect ;)) at the end of every week. But this didn't really help much. I should consider this again as she seems slightly more motivated by money lately now that she's saving up for an AG doll. :tongue_smilie:

 

4th grader as in 9 or 10 years old?

 

Are you planning on Algebra in 7th grade? Because that is the pace she'd be at:

 

4th - Saxon 65

5th - Saxon 76

6th - Saxon 87

7th - Saxon Alg 1/2 or Alg

 

I'd slow down, back up whatever word you want to use. She has time to get the basics down.

 

I thought of another mastery program -- Math Mammoth.

[fairfarmhand]

4th grader as in 9 or 10 years old?

 

Are you planning on Algebra in 7th grade? Because that is the pace she'd be at:

 

4th - Saxon 65

5th - Saxon 76

6th - Saxon 87

7th - Saxon Alg 1/2 or Alg

 

I'd slow down, back up whatever word you want to use. She has time to get the basics down.

 

I thought of another mastery program -- Math Mammoth.

 

 

yes. this.

 

I made the same mistake with my dd. When she was advanced in first grade I simply pushed her on ahead. Then when we hit fourth grade it all hit the fan. It was horrible. Her brain was NOT ready for the concepts, nor was she capable of handling the workload. It was a big mistake. Those advanced courses are designed for the average 6-7 grader not a younger kid.

 

I'm not saying that you just forget about math and all you have learned, but you may want to consider backing way off.

[unsinkable]

yes. this.

 

I made the same mistake with my dd. When she was advanced in first grade I simply pushed her on ahead. Then when we hit fourth grade it all hit the fan. It was horrible. Her brain was NOT ready for the concepts, nor was she capable of handling the workload. It was a big mistake. Those advanced courses are designed for the average 6-7 grader not a younger kid.

 

I'm not saying that you just forget about math and all you have learned, but you may want to consider backing way off.

 

:iagree:

 

Plain Jane,

 

I've been thinking about your posts often over the past few days. And I just can't figure out the timeline of everything so I might have this wrong.

 

May I gently suggest, as a mom of 2 teens & 1 almost teen that you might want to look at what is typically covered in 4th grade/5th grade? I am not sure what your background is but if she is your oldest and you haven't had much experience with teaching math or being around many students learning math, you might be surprised at what a 4th/5th grader should accomplish.

 

Your dd, at age 9 or 10, might very well be a very good math student with age appropriate work. She is very young for you to say or think she is horrible at math. I can't figure out when she was doing what curriculum and at what level but you might have been pushing her too hard for a very long time.

 

Or I might be completely wrong. But I'd rather take a risk and post this than not say anything. She might just thrive if you pull back and it'd be wonderful for both of you.

 

:grouphug:

[Joyofsixreboot]

No advice, only :grouphug: I was exactly like your dd. I did make it through a Master's Degree so obviously there are ways to compensate. Hang in there, PS would have left her in the dust. I know.

[zaichiki]

Does she pay better attention to her computation when the topics are new?

 

I don't think changing the curriculum again is going to fix the problem. I don't think it's age either, honestly.

 

My ds sounds similar in some ways. Singapore is the BEST program for him - not b/c he gets more answers correct, but b/c it requires him to think about math and really get his head around the problems. It's more than just "here are the steps now work them till they're memorized and spit them back out." He needs the regular review, though not a lot of it.

 

This is what I do:

1. Stagger the review (using lower level Intensive Practice books -- usually a semester, but currently two semesters' worth) and do the next page in the book every day. No need to plan it out.

2. Give fewer review problems more frequently. I assign a couple of review problems (from textbook or workbook "review" and "practice" sections) on the day we get to that section. Then ds does a couple of problems at a time over a 2 week time period. No need to plan it out, just tell child to do one or two problems on the page (marked with a sticky note) each day until it's done.

3. When I check the work I tell him how many problems he needs to go back and check. I do not tell him which problems. He usually finds and corrects the answers on his own.

4. If some are still incorrect I circle the problems that are wrong and give him another chance to find his errors. If he can fix them without my help, I consider the skill acquired.

5. If some are *still* incorrect, we do the lesson again together.

 

Some kids make more errors than others, even when they understand the lesson. My 2nd child makes fewer errors in her independent work. She has greater attention to detail in general, though. She's not better at math. She doesn't learn the new topics any faster. She still needs review. She just pays better attention to what she's doing and will sometimes even check her work before showing it to me.

 

Different strengths for different kids. That's all.

 

I'd seriously go back to Singapore. From what you wrote it sounds like you were happier with her understanding of math when she was using it. Maybe stagger the review a bit more (but don't plan it all out)?

 

Oh and I agree with a pp: she's not necessarily horrible at math.

It does sound like you want to keep her at her challenge level, though. When children are kept at their instructional/challenge level they make more errors. It requires more effort. If she was zipping through it and getting everything right she might seem to be "better" at math, but she might not be challenged.

Edited April 8, 2011 by zaichiki

[Terabith]

Look into Math U See. But honestly, it doesn't sound to me so much that she does not understand math, or that you are failing to teach her math, but that she is struggling with concentration and careless mistakes. She got through Singapore 4a, with passing grades. She tested into Saxon 7/6. She understood the math. I'd consider going back to there. Or, ooh, Math Mammoth might be a much better fit. What she has accomplished math wise does not signify a lack of understanding to me at all. I have also found a fair amount of luck with 1 m&m or blueberry for each correct problem with my first grader, BUT it has to be immediate. She does the problem; I check; I give m&m or she corrects. It doesn't work if she has to do an entire page. But, I'm guessing this isn't terribly feasible in a large family. :grouphug:

 

Something I've read about is a system called "the five hardest." You give them the five hardest problems on the page. If they can solve those, you know they understand the concept and they don't have to do the entire page. Review is separate, but again very short.

 

VERY frustrating. If it helps, my husband was like this all through elementary school, in particular. He was considered awful in math. He still is fairly lousy at arithmetic computation. But, he got a bachelors with a double major in math and physics and a masters in physics. There is hope. (He does have ADHD, however.)

Edited April 8, 2011 by Terabith

[Teachin'Mine]

Jane I wouldn't assume that 10 questions wrong, out of 30 +, means that she doesn't understand the math. My dd had a lot of the lesson problems wrong even through 8/7 - most were due to simple arithmetic. She was solid in her math facts and very "mathy". But she was at "that" age. Today she's doing Advanced Math and is much more accurate. I never worry about problems wrong on the lessons. She reads her answers to me, and when one is wrong, she reworks the problem right then until she gets the right answer. We've found this system to work really well with Saxon.

 

Considering that your dd got a different 10 wrong when she redid the lesson says to me that it's more age related than ability. I wouldn't worry about it and would let her continue. I'd even see if she could test out of some of the book and continue onto 7/6. Let her know that she can skip some work if she does well on the test, and you may be surprised to see her work be more accurate. Just a thought.

[TechWife]

Yup. she does write down all the steps.

 

Really, it comes down to sloppy mistakes a lot of the time more than complete lack of understanding. BUt she also rushes through things and doesn't read what the question is actually asking of her. It's so incredibly frustrating.

 

I haven't read all of the responses, so forgive me if this is a repeat.

 

Does she rush through the work in her other subjects? Does she read the question carefully and answer all parts of it? How does she do with instructions that involve completing more than three steps?

[Ray]

http://www.reasoningmind.org/index.php?mv=8&elm=3&tab_id=2#

 

Not endorsing just making aware

[Melissa in CA]

She loves that Saxon doesn't require her to think in that way and now she can't do it anymore when she used to be quite strong at mental math.

 

 

I just had to let you know that your "Gaah" smilie totally cracked me up! :lol:

I'm not making light of your frustration though, I've been there, done that. =)

 

My oldest ds started having math troubles at the beginning of 3rd grade. In K-2 I thought he was amazingly adept at math, and then we began 3rd grade and it was like he'd never learned a single math concept...ever. It was so frustrating. So. Frustrating. In the end I had to put him into a private school that year. I truly had had enough. I thought he was just being stubborn, lazy, you name it. Lo and behold, after 1 1/2 years in private school his 4th grade teacher asked to speak with me. She noticed something was just WRONG with his wee brain. Long story short, we had him tested for free with our local public school and sure enough, it was found he had an LD. They told me how this LD would present itself, and everything they said I was like, 'Yep, he does that, yep, that's him, yep, yep, yep.' Their diagnoses was spot on. I was impressed. The public school said that they could help him for free, so I put him in ps for 5th grade. It did help, but he wasn't 'cured' or anything.

 

When I brought him back home I had a lot more patience with him, and tried to gear his subjects toward his ability and a tad above. Anything overly complex would cause him to mentally shut down. Classical homeschooling would have NEVER worked for this child. He could easily read hard literature, but his comprehension was almost nil. Algebra 1 took all of 9th and 10th grades to complete. It was torture. So, long story short, it's something he is going to have to live with his entire life, but he has learned to work around it. He's NOT going into a math career of any kind cuz regardless of how hard he studies, he just doesn't get abstract thinking, but he's doing excellent in his liberal studies. So, it's not the end of the world. :001_smile:

 

Anyhow, I am only telling you this because it could be that, like another poster mentioned, your dd has a slight case of ADD or some other such thing. (I can't for the life of me recall my ds's LD, but it was an issue in his comprehension. Wires all crossed and whatnot.) It doesn't have to be a huge LD...my ds's was only slight...but even something slight, can cause the issues you are describing. Some of the things you have said your dd is doing, are things my ds did. If you find some way to help her now, she can learn to work around whatever the issue is. ;)

 

:grouphug:

 

PS I also think MUS would have been a good choice for my ds. But I knew nothing about it until his 11th grade when he used their Geometry. I think their Elementary through Alg would have been a good choice for him though.

[AK_Mom4]

No, sorry, 4th grader.

 

I actually had a similar deal worked out with her. She would get 5c for every question correctly done but would have to pay me 25c for every wrong answer. I'd pay her (or some weeks, collect ;)) at the end of every week. But this didn't really help much. I should consider this again as she seems slightly more motivated by money lately now that she's saving up for an AG doll. :tongue_smilie:

 

I think it's an age issue - the saxon book you are doing assumes a little more mature brain than your DD actually has *yet*. So you are seeing inconsistent results whenever she loses focus - it's hard to keep the brain on track for the length of the problem.

 

My 4th grader's favorite coinage is hershey's kisses. 1 for every 5 problems right. Whenever the inconsistency gets really bad, we go back to chocolate.

 

Another good technique for younger kids on the upper Saxon books is to break it into pieces. Break it up into 3 pieces and have them go do SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT after finishing 10 problems. This seems to combat the "brain-drain". There's plenty of time to build up the mental endurance over the next couple of years.

[1Togo]

You might try working 1/2 lessons each day until the error rate improves. Often high error rate and careless errors are related to the ability to focus and process for long periods of time rather than the material. If you can identify the point where she started to struggle, go back to that lesson. Have her work 1/2 of the lesson on Monday and 1/2 of the lesson on Tuesday. If her error rate improves, then keep going with the 1/2 lessons for a while. This has happened with two of our children and going to 1/2 lessons worked. Btw, you won't have to do it forever, so don't panic and think that she will never catch up. Another option is to identify the concepts that are causing problems, take a break from Saxon, and use another resource to practice those concepts. We have used the Practical Arithmetics books for this as well as materials from Math Mammoth. Also, how is the rest of her workload? Does she have a heavy load of subjects and activities? Sometimes it helps to pare down the school day if possible. Keep the focus on the basics with math as the first subject of the day.

Edited April 8, 2011 by 1Togo

[LinRTX]

Well, I've had a couple of younger ones in that book at 9 and my best friend was the timer! When I set the timer it seemed the child focused better. I usually set it for 30 minutes and told the child we would move on at the end of that time to another subject. It has never failed that the work was either completely or almost done by that time and done better than without the timer. It always amazes me. I don't use the timer everyday (anymore).

 

Linda

[zaichiki]

Well, I've had a couple of younger ones in that book at 9 and my best friend was the timer! When I set the timer it seemed the child focused better. I usually set it for 30 minutes and told the child we would move on at the end of that time to another subject. It has never failed that the work was either completely or almost done by that time and done better than without the timer. It always amazes me. I don't use the timer everyday (anymore).

 

Linda

 

I've had a similar experience. Sometimes it helps them keep their focus if they know there IS an end coming. The misery is finite, ya know?

[Parrothead]

She sounds very similar to my daughter....and you sound how I was a couple of years back.

 

What made a tremendous and wonderful difference for my daughter and I was Math-U-See.

 

She'd watch the video and do the first page of the lesson. If she aced it she then did a sheet from the review section. If not she just worked through the next one or two pages. Once she aces the review section then she moves on to the test. She truly loves doing it this way. She's able to fully master concepts and move at her own pace.

 

Any questions she doesn't get right are circled and she has to do them again OR if it is obvious she may have written the wrong answer for simple addition/subtraction or multiplication or whatever (writing 25 instead of 52) I'll verbally ask her the question.

 

MUS has made a world of difference in helping her not make silly mistakes. There's enough questions to keep things proper...but, not enough to overwhelm her. It took 14 years...but, she's finally grasping math and loving it...and I love teaching it! I wish we would have found MUS sooner.

:iagree:The exact same situation here. I spent a small fortune for math during the K'er, 1st and 2nd grade years. Then I came across MUS and now won't use anything else because it is the only thing that worked for dd.

[coralloyd]

Can I say I sound like your daughter lol! I was homeschooled and went to public school using Saxon. Things NEVER got better for me. I forgot almost all that I learned after the test. I stink at math.

I now use MUS with my dc. I am learning math concepts all over again! I now understand (and don't stink quite as much)! Mr. Demme explains things in a way that just makes sense to me. My oldest would probably be in the same boat as your dd. However, since we have used MUS from the beginning, she understands math. She is not the fastest at it. But she knows what she is doing and rarely gets problems wrong. She also thinks she is good at math. This is important to me since I have such a low view of myself in the math department. I say give it a shot.