Predestination and free will: Can they be reconciled or can they co-exist?

[JadeOrchidSong]

I know that the Bible says we are God's elect. Without God's choosing us, we would never become believers. This is confusing because if God does the choosing and gives us the grace to believe Him (i.e. without Him touching our hearts and giving us the grace to believe, we would not have the ability to become Christians), then how can anyone be blamed if by themselves they can't come to God and become Christians and can't go to heaven as a result?

I want to believe that God does the choosing, but I also believe there is free will and people respond to God and choose Him. How do I reconcile the two and have peace?

It bothers me that my loved ones cannot believe simply because God chooses not to touch their hearts or give them the grace to believe and therefore they won't go to heaven.

It is easier for me to believe that God shows everyone His love; then some people choose to accept His love and gift of salvation and believe while others choose not to believe Him. Does this make sense?

If God did all the choosing and enabling, doesn't it make God alone responsible for our salvation? Doesn't it make it unfair that He chose some and not all? Since we are all sinners, we are equal in God's eyes; no one is better than another. Also if God did the all the choosing, then why bother evangelizing because no matter how much we pray and how much we share His love, those He chooses not to choose wouldn't believe anyway and those He does choose would believe no matter what.

Does my question make sense?

I am sorry for this rambling. I am simply very frustrated.

Edited March 20, 2011 by aomom

[catalinakel]

God only knows.

[dangermom]

I do not believe in predestination and I cannot see how it could co-exist with free will. As far as I know, God wants every single one of us to come home to Him, and He makes it possible. But he will not force us. We sang this hymn in church last week and it pretty much covers it for me:

 

1. Know this, that ev’ry soul is free

To choose his life and what he’ll be;

For this eternal truth is giv’n:

That God will force no man to heav’n.

 

2. He’ll call, persuade, direct aright,

And bless with wisdom, love, and light,

In nameless ways be good and kind,

But never force the human mind.

 

3. Freedom and reason make us men;

Take these away, what are we then?

Mere animals, and just as well

The beasts may think of heav’n or hell.

 

4. May we no more our pow’rs abuse,

But ways of truth and goodness choose;

Our God is pleased when we improve

His grace and seek his perfect love.

 

Text: Anon., ca. 1805, Boston.

[JadeOrchidSong]

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200430

Thank you for your responses so far. I found this one and read through all. Still I need more help to understand this. Thank you!

[OnTheBrink]

My church teaches both, sorta. They coexist and are a mystery.

[VaKim]

"This is confusing because if God does the choosing and gives us the grace to believe Him (i.e. without Him touching our hearts and giving us the grace to believe, we would not have the ability to become Christians), then how can anyone be blamed if by themselves they can't come to God and become Christians and can't go to heaven as a result?"

 

I believe this question has been anticipated and answered in Scripture itself.

 

Romans 9

18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

[Annabel Lee]

I don't have anything to add since I'm still wading through all the Armenian vs. Calvinism stuff in my own head, but 2 books that I look forward to reading, recommended by a friend who loves & studies historical theology & philosophy, are Why I am not Armenian and Why I am not Calvinist. Both are available on amazon.

[tntgoodwin]

"To be condemned by a God of perfect love shows us how d@mnable our sin truly is."

 

A quote I saw today that seemed fitting.

 

This is something I have personally been dealing with lately, as God steers me toward Calvinism from Arminianism.

 

Edit: censored.

[Peela]

This is an issue that has been debated by many over the centuries- and the question of free will versus predestination has also been debated by many from other religions too. I have examined and only know that i am deeply conditioned by my culture and environment and so is everyone else so free will is not so free as most people think, a lot of the time- but instead conditioned.

 

But...your basic question represents why many of us cannot believe in Christianity in the common sense of the word, of needing to believe in a God who chooses to "save" only the ones who believe in him. It just doesn't hold water at all.

[JudoMom]

I know that the Bible says we are God's elect. Without God's choosing us, we would never become believers. This is confusing because if God does the choosing and gives us the grace to believe Him (i.e. without Him touching our hearts and giving us the grace to believe, we would not have the ability to become Christians), then how can anyone be blamed if by themselves they can't come to God and become Christians and can't go to heaven as a result?

I want to believe that God does the choosing, but I also believe there is free will and people respond to God and choose Him. How do I reconcile the two and have peace?

It bothers me that my loved ones cannot believe simply because God chooses not to touch their hearts or give them the grace to believe and therefore they won't go to heaven.

It is easier for me to believe that God shows everyone His love; then some people choose to accept His love and gift of salvation and believe while others choose not to believe Him. Does this make sense?

If God did all the choosing and enabling, doesn't it make God alone responsible for our salvation? Doesn't it make it unfair that He chose some and not all? Since we are all sinners, we are equal in God's eyes; no one is better than another. Also if God did the all the choosing, then why bother evangelizing because no matter how much we pray and how much we share His love, those He chooses not to choose wouldn't believe anyway and those He does choose would believe no matter what.

Does my question make sense?

I am sorry for this rambling. I am simply very frustrated.

 

Everyone can choose God. Everyone is free to choose God. God does not stop anyone from choosing him.

 

However, because humans are utterly sinful, no one will choose him.

 

This is where God's grace comes in. In his goodness, he chose to change the desires of some and therefore they will choose him.

 

The real mystery is that God would predestine any humans, not that God hasn't predestined all humans. We are all so completely sinful that none of us deserve his grace and we more than deserve the wrath of the Holy God.

 

It's not unfair because nobody gets injustice. Everyone deserves his wrath. God is more than justified in condemning every single human being that has ever or will ever live. However, he chooses to pour out his mercy on some. What he never does is give someone what they do NOT deserve.

 

We evangelize and pray because God instructed us to. "Pray then, like this" (Matthew 6) and "Therefore, go and make disciples" (Matthew 28). For reasons I don't fully comprehend, prayer and evangelism are part of God's plan. We can't make anyone come to Christ, and we can't use prayer to make God change his mind, but they are still used. I know that when I do these things I am changed as my thoughts are directed more towards Christ.

 

I hope this makes sense--I'm still on my first cup of coffee.

[DawnM]

I love these books.

 

The one who wrote, "Why I am not a Calvinist" says that the main reason he is not a Calvinist is because he believes Jesus died for all and not for the ones he selected only. His wording is a bit different, but this is the reason I am not a Calvinist (ok, well, ONE of the reasons).

 

I believe we are all "elected" as he choose to die for all of us and wants all of us to come to salvation, however, we have free will (just as Adam and Eve did) to choose Him or not.

 

This is a very touchy subject for me as I have had many an R.C. Spraul follower feel that if they just explain it to me again, or louder, or with more force, or whatever that I will have my eyes opened and be converted.....

 

Dawn

 

I don't have anything to add since I'm still wading through all the Armenian vs. Calvinism stuff in my own head, but 2 books that I look forward to reading, recommended by a friend who loves & studies historical theology & philosophy, are Why I am not Armenian and Why I am not Calvinist. Both are available on amazon.

[blondeviolin]

I believe there is a set path in life, but that we can choose to continue on that path (finding it by prayer and listening to the spirit) or we can choose to deviate. In my religion, we use the term foreordination.

[Violet Crown]

I don't have anything to contribute to the religious debate--here's my faith's take on it--but two minor points to add:

 

1. Free will is a live debate in secular philosophy as well. Do all things have a cause? (We can include such things as brain states and any other mental/psychological phenomena here.) "Free will" seems to suggest that we may perform causeless actions. But a causeless action, if there be such a thing, would surely just be a random event. More here.

 

2. A very minor point, but in defense of Armenian friends who have no dog in this fight, I want to observe that the Protestant theory of free will is Arminianism.

[Kathleen in VA]

My church teaches both, sorta. They coexist and are a mystery.

 

My pastor says it is the everlasting mystery of man's responsibility and God's sovereignty. God is sovereign and chooses (elects) those whom He will save (Eph. 1), but man is still responsible to respond to God's call. This side of heaven, we will never fully understand it.

 

 

"This is confusing because if God does the choosing and gives us the grace to believe Him (i.e. without Him touching our hearts and giving us the grace to believe, we would not have the ability to become Christians), then how can anyone be blamed if by themselves they can't come to God and become Christians and can't go to heaven as a result?"

 

I believe this question has been anticipated and answered in Scripture itself.

 

Romans 9

18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

 

This is the passage that came to my mind.

 

I cannot believe that God meant for everyone to be saved. It really is a miracle that any of us are saved considering our sinful condition and rebellious nature. The verses that refer to the "world" or "all" are merely making the distinction that it was not just for the Jews that Christ came, but for the Gentiles as well. Up to that point in history the Jews believed the Messiah was coming just for them. These scriptures make it clear that He came not just for Jews, but for people of all nations. They do not mean for everyone in the world.

 

If God meant for everyone to be saved, then He failed, and the Bible teaches that God never fails to do anything He sets out to do. This view of God - that man has the power to reject or accept Him and can thereby thwart God's purposes - gives too much power and therefore, too much glory to man. It is a man-centered gospel as opposed to a God-centered gospel. God is either sovereign over the universe and all that is in it or He is not.

 

I know many cringe at the thought of God not saving certain ones. This is His prerogative, however. He is, after all, God. The universe is His to do with as He pleases. The wonder is that anyone at all is saved. None of us deserves anything at all from God except eternal ****ation. The fact that God chooses any of us is what makes grace so amazing. There is nothing in any individual - absolutely nothing - that requires God to have mercy on him/her. God saves some because He chooses to, not because of anything we have done - even "making a decision for Christ."

 

Here is one of my favorite quotes on the subject:

 

After giving a brief survey of these doctrines of sovereign grace, I asked for questions from the class. One lady, in particular, was quite troubled. She said, 'This is the most awful thing I've ever heard! You make it sound as if God is intentionally turning away men and women who would be saved, receiving only the elect.' I answered her in this vein: 'You misunderstand the situation. You're visualizing that God is standing at the door of heaven, and men are thronging to get in the door, and God is saying to various ones, 'Yes, you may come, but not you, and you, but not you, etc.' The situation is hardly this. Rather, God stands at the door of heaven with His arms outstretched, inviting all to come. Yet all men without exception are running in the opposite direction towards hell as hard as they can go. So God, in election, graciously reaches out and stops this one, and that one, and this one over here, and that one over there, and effectually draws them to Himself by changing their hearts, making them willing to come. Election keeps no one out of heaven who would otherwise have been there, but it keeps a whole multitude of sinners out of hell who otherwise would have been there. Were it not for election, heaven would be an empty place, and hell would be bursting at the seams. That kind of response, grounded as I believe that it is in Scriptural truth, does put a different complexion on things, doesn't it? If you perish in hell, blame yourself, as it is entirely your fault. But if you should make it to heaven, credit God, for that is entirely His work! To Him alone belong all praise and glory, for salvation is all of grace, from start to finish. - Mark Webb

 

Another passage that helped me to understand this is John 17 - Christ's High Priestly prayer.

[Amy in NH]

It depends on how you understand "time" and where you believe the "soul" comes from.

 

Personally, I think they can be reconciled.

[dangermom]

If God meant for everyone to be saved, then He failed, and the Bible teaches that God never fails to do anything He sets out to do. This view of God - that man has the power to reject or accept Him and can thereby thwart God's purposes - gives too much power and therefore, too much glory to man. It is a man-centered gospel as opposed to a God-centered gospel. God is either sovereign over the universe and all that is in it or He is not.

 

This is where I disagree with Calvinism. (OK, it's one of the places.) AFAIK God would like for all of us to be saved, He invites us all, but He knows that many will not choose to be saved. He knew that in the first place. He gives that choice to us--not because He is weak or thwarted, but because His plan is that we should choose Him freely. That's why we're here, and that's His purpose, which is not being thwarted at all.

 

However, I also don't believe in total depravation. Yes, we are fallen and sinful, but we also have (what in my church is called) the light of Christ within us--a longing for God and our heavenly home. We spend much of our time muddling around between the two, but we can choose to go towards the light more than we fall down, and Heavenly Father helps us. And one of the biggest differences here is that we believe that babies are born innocent, without sin, not depraved at all.

 

It's not unfair because nobody gets injustice. Everyone deserves his wrath. God is more than justified in condemning every single human being that has ever or will ever live. However, he chooses to pour out his mercy on some. What he never does is give someone what they do NOT deserve.

I'm having trouble making sense out of that last sentence; is that what you meant to say? Because the rest of your paragraph seems to say that no one deserves mercy, so isn't that giving someone what they do not deserve? You seem to be saying that people who are chosen to be saved deserve to receive mercy, and my understanding is that Calvinism says the opposite of that. (Not that I agree with any of it, mind you, but I do need to understand what I'm disagreeing with.)

[JudoMom]

This is where I disagree with Calvinism. (OK, it's one of the places.) AFAIK God would like for all of us to be saved, He invites us all, but He knows that many will not choose to be saved. He knew that in the first place. He gives that choice to us--not because He is weak or thwarted, but because His plan is that we should choose Him freely. That's why we're here, and that's His purpose, which is not being thwarted at all.

 

However, I also don't believe in total depravation. Yes, we are fallen and sinful, but we also have (what in my church is called) the light of Christ within us--a longing for God and our heavenly home. We spend much of our time muddling around between the two, but we can choose to go towards the light more than we fall down, and Heavenly Father helps us. And one of the biggest differences here is that we believe that babies are born innocent, without sin, not depraved at all.

 

I'm having trouble making sense out of that last sentence; is that what you meant to say? Because the rest of your paragraph seems to say that no one deserves mercy, so isn't that giving someone what they do not deserve? You seem to be saying that people who are chosen to be saved deserve to receive mercy, and my understanding is that Calvinism says the opposite of that. (Not that I agree with any of it, mind you, but I do need to understand what I'm disagreeing with.)

 

Everyone gets either justice or mercy (compassion or forbearance shown especially to an offender or to one subject to one's power). Everyone deserves justice, but God chooses to pour out his mercy on some (by definition no one can deserve mercy). What God never gives is injustice (which is what I meant by the last sentence).

[angela in ohio]

Everyone can choose God. Everyone is free to choose God. God does not stop anyone from choosing him.

 

However, because humans are utterly sinful, no one will choose him.

 

This is where God's grace comes in. In his goodness, he chose to change the desires of some and therefore they will choose him.

 

The real mystery is that God would predestine any humans, not that God hasn't predestined all humans. We are all so completely sinful that none of us deserve his grace and we more than deserve the wrath of the Holy God.

 

Exactly. Today Christians are not used to hearing about our wretched sinfulness. I believe that is why this concept seems foreign to most. The predominant view in our culture is that we are all pretty much good people, but there are a few bad people (criminals, etc.) An understanding of predestination should start with a Bibilical study of sin.

[Ellie]

I don't believe God chooses some people to save and doesn't choose others. I just don't.

 

I believe that He knows the ones who will choose, and He predestined [i.e., works on through their lives] to form them in the image of Christ.

 

In general, I disagree with Calvin, so there you go.

[Xuzi]

One thing that has me scratching my head about this "predestination" doctrine, and I wonder if there's an explaination for it that perhaps just hasn't come up (or that I missed seeing) in the previous threads on this topic:

 

Why does God keep creating depraved people? I personally believe in a pre-existant state, but I know Calvanists don't, correct? That each new baby that's concieved is also a new soul created where there wasn't one before? Why is God creating millions and billions of depraved beings? Does He have no control over His creative process, that He could start creating non-depraved behings, rather than "choosing" a few already-created beings here and there to bring to Him?

[TracyP]

Would a belief in predestination mean a belief that some people are predestined, by God, to hell?

[DawnM]

I don't know of any Protestant or Catholic Christian who believes in pre-existance.....I think it is a very unique belief to those who are LDS or who believe in reincarnation of some sort.

 

I think though that regardless of pre-existance, the question could be asked no matter if you believe in predestination or not.....why does God keep creating people who may not follow Him? In your case, why would God keep creating those in heaven only to come to earth and not follow LDS? Why wouldn't he put all babies in an LDS family?

 

My questions are not necessarily to be answered, but just to point out that there are many questions regarding existence of man and depravations that we may not understand.

 

Dawn

 

One thing that has me scratching my head about this "predestination" doctrine, and I wonder if there's an explaination for it that perhaps just hasn't come up (or that I missed seeing) in the previous threads on this topic:

 

Why does God keep creating depraved people? I personally believe in a pre-existant state, but I know Calvanists don't, correct? That each new baby that's concieved is also a new soul created where there wasn't one before? Why is God creating millions and billions of depraved beings? Does He have no control over His creative process, that He could start creating non-depraved behings, rather than "choosing" a few already-created beings here and there to bring to Him?

[simka2]

I found this quote. It is the only one I know from the church Father's that allows for a "compromise." That said, it would not satisfy the modern concept of Predestination. (also, this was the ONLY quote I could find that hinted at the concept of predestination.)

Hermas, c. A.D. 160

 

 

 

To those whose heart he saw would become pure and obedient to him, he gave power to repent with the whole heart. But to those whose deceit and wickedness he perceived, and saw that they intended to repent hypocritically, he did not grant repentance, lest they should again profane His name. (Shepherd of Hermas III:9:6)

 

 

 

 

 

Here is the site if anyone would be intersted on the early church's position.

http://www.christian-history.org/predestination-quotes.html

 

 

 

 

[K-FL]

A book that helped me sort it out is A Journey In Grace. It's in novel form, but he goes through scripture & does a study on which way it reads if you take it back to the original.

[TracyP]

Simka, am I correct in understanding this to mean that God does not predestine but pre-sees (sorry, I'm sure their is a better word but family is waiting for lunch) and then by extension he will open the path for those who will choose him and close it for those who won't.

[Xuzi]

I don't know of any Protestant or Catholic Christian who believes in pre-existance.....I think it is a very unique belief to those who are LDS or who believe in reincarnation of some sort.

 

I think though that regardless of pre-existance, the question could be asked no matter if you believe in predestination or not.....why does God keep creating people who may not follow Him? In your case, why would God keep creating those in heaven only to come to earth and not follow LDS? Why wouldn't he put all babies in an LDS family?

 

My questions are not necessarily to be answered, but just to point out that there are many questions regarding existence of man and depravations that we may not understand.

 

Dawn

LDS don't believe we were created ex-nihilo (if that's how you spell that). We've always existed (first as Intelligences, then as Spirits, then as embodied Mortals, etc.), and God set us on the path to continue our growth and development into what we have the potential to be. To not allow us the chance to grow and progress and CHOOSE him, of our own will, would be to thwart His plan. (we also don't believe that only LDS will achieve that full-potential to growth, and so not every child needs to be born into an LDS family ;) ) And we have a far more liberal view of who will be saved from Hell. Only those who willfully, and with full-knowledge of Him, REJECT Him will end up there, everyone else will recieve some reward.

 

Coming from that background, it's hard to understand how it brings Glory to God to create creatures destined to Hell. Who is He showing His glory to? His own creation? Why? If so many in His creation can't see how ****ed beings bring Him glory, then is he truely being Glorified? Is His plan really working? And why does He need to create anybody or anything to bring himself Glory? Can He not be great without mankind declaring Him great?

[simka2]

Simka, am I correct in understanding this to mean that God does not predestine but pre-sees (sorry, I'm sure their is a better word but family is waiting for lunch) and then by extension he will open the path for those who will choose him and close it for those who won't.

 

 

The op I think asked about a compromise. This was the closest I could find to that from the early church (I prefer to go way back and see if these issues have already been hashed out ;))

 

You asked earlier, if predestination meant predestined to Hell, and yes that is the natural conclusion of the modern view of predestination.

 

That is why I wrote that that quote would not satisfy the modern concept of predestination.

 

For what it is worth, I do not believe in predestination. Hope that helps!

[DawnM]

AH! Ok, I see. I have a lot more questions re: the whole idea of pre-existence, but that is a whole other thread.

 

I personally tend to be a little more liberal in my understanding of Hell as well, if that is really the right term (liberal).

 

Dawn

 

LDS don't believe we were created ex-nihilo (if that's how you spell that). We've always existed (first as Intelligences, then as Spirits, then as embodied Mortals, etc.), and God set us on the path to continue our growth and development into what we have the potential to be. To not allow us the chance to grow and progress and CHOOSE him, of our own will, would be to thwart His plan. (we also don't believe that only LDS will achieve that full-potential to growth, and so not every child needs to be born into an LDS family ;) ) And we have a far more liberal view of who will be saved from Hell. Only those who willfully, and with full-knowledge of Him, REJECT Him will end up there, everyone else will recieve some reward.

 

Coming from that background, it's hard to understand how it brings Glory to God to create creatures destined to Hell. Who is He showing His glory to? His own creation? Why? If so many in His creation can't see how ****ed beings bring Him glory, then is he truely being Glorified? Is His plan really working? And why does He need to create anybody or anything to bring himself Glory? Can He not be great without mankind declaring Him great?

[Erica in PA]

I know that the Bible says we are God's elect. Without God's choosing us, we would never become believers. This is confusing because if God does the choosing and gives us the grace to believe Him (i.e. without Him touching our hearts and giving us the grace to believe, we would not have the ability to become Christians), then how can anyone be blamed if by themselves they can't come to God and become Christians and can't go to heaven as a result?

I want to believe that God does the choosing, but I also believe there is free will and people respond to God and choose Him. How do I reconcile the two and have peace?

It bothers me that my loved ones cannot believe simply because God chooses not to touch their hearts or give them the grace to believe and therefore they won't go to heaven.

It is easier for me to believe that God shows everyone His love; then some people choose to accept His love and gift of salvation and believe while others choose not to believe Him. Does this make sense?

If God did all the choosing and enabling, doesn't it make God alone responsible for our salvation? Doesn't it make it unfair that He chose some and not all? Since we are all sinners, we are equal in God's eyes; no one is better than another. Also if God did the all the choosing, then why bother evangelizing because no matter how much we pray and how much we share His love, those He chooses not to choose wouldn't believe anyway and those He does choose would believe no matter what.

Does my question make sense?

I am sorry for this rambling. I am simply very frustrated.

 

Romans 9-- this passage, and wrestling with and finally submitting to its teaching that God is sovereign and can do with all of us whatever He choose, really helped me to accept the doctrine of election.

[TracyP]

I just found this and thought it was very helpful.

Predestination

 

from the link: 1) Free will; that is, God allows people to choose him, and allows them to reject them. People always have the option. Thus election, if you believe it, must be an act of persuasion and not compulsion.

 

This does seem to be a reconciliation of the two. I have wrestled with this for a long time but when I flipped it around in my head this morning

Would a belief in predestination mean a belief that some people are predestined, by God, to hell?

that it finally became so clear to me. I cannot believe or think of a biblical basis for God predestining some to hell when Jesus died for all of mankind.

[heart'sjoy]

I just found this and thought it was very helpful.

Predestination

 

from the link: 1) Free will; that is, God allows people to choose him, and allows them to reject them. People always have the option. Thus election, if you believe it, must be an act of persuasion and not compulsion.

 

This does seem to be a reconciliation of the two. I have wrestled with this for a long time but when I flipped it around in my head this morning that it finally became so clear to me. I cannot believe or think of a biblical basis for God predestining some to hell when Jesus died for all of mankind.

 

Grace, #5485 in Strong's Concordance, is a divine influence on the heart reflecting into our lives.

 

I would say my own experience has definitely been God changing my will/ "wanter too'er" (we say with the children.)

 

 

A natural question:

Which comes first the Predistination (choosing) or the foreknowledge (God knowing I would choose him?)

 

I think a better question would be:

What do the verses mentioning foreknowledge say God foreknew? (Romans 8:29, and 1 Peter 1:2) They don't specify that God's foreknowledge of my actions informed his choice.

 

It's a question of: Does my choice inform God's choice? or Does God's choice inform my choice?

Which truth fits the pattern of God's actions?

 

The more I read the Old Testament and the more I look up the Greek definitions of words like predestination (prehorizon- Long ago to mark out the boundary/even the horizon) and chose (heartily lay out a systematic plan; opposite of random), the less I see of my influence on God.

 

I have the same questions as the OP. I'm still learning and asking questions but, I am at peace with a God who is in charge of everything even eternal destinations.

[Tracy]

Personally, I believe that we all have free will and that God expects us to make our own choices. However, he knows us so well, so perfectly, so completely that he already knows what choices we will make. And he designs our path around those choices.

[Kathleen in VA]

Here's a link to a sermon by Phil Johnson on election where he explains how these two seemingly opposing ideas - man's responsibility and God's sovereignty - can be reconciled:

 

http://www.thegracelifepulpit.com/PJ-CDA11.htm

 

Scroll down to the sermon titled "Dealing with Election."

[Ellie]

One thing that has me scratching my head about this "predestination" doctrine, and I wonder if there's an explaination for it that perhaps just hasn't come up (or that I missed seeing) in the previous threads on this topic:

 

Why does God keep creating depraved people? I personally believe in a pre-existant state, but I know Calvanists don't, correct? That each new baby that's concieved is also a new soul created where there wasn't one before? Why is God creating millions and billions of depraved beings? Does He have no control over His creative process, that He could start creating non-depraved behings, rather than "choosing" a few already-created beings here and there to bring to Him?

God doesn't create depraved people. The potential for depravity has been there since Adam and Eve sinned and had to leave the Garden. It is the result of sin's coming into the world, not of God continuing to create them. Each of those depraved people can choose to turn from his depravity and repent, becoming a new creature in Christ. It is why Christ died on the cross and rose again: to make it possible for people to turn from sin, be forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness, and enter into relatonship with Him.

[dangermom]

God doesn't create depraved people. The potential for depravity has been there since Adam and Eve sinned and had to leave the Garden. It is the result of sin's coming into the world, not of God continuing to create them. Each of those depraved people can choose to turn from his depravity and repent, becoming a new creature in Christ. It is why Christ died on the cross and rose again: to make it possible for people to turn from sin, be forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness, and enter into relatonship with Him.

 

So, then, you're not a Calvinist? Or else I'm confused.

[tntgoodwin]

The idea that God predestines some to Hell as well as some to heaven is referred to as "double predestination." While it seems to be a natural extension of predestination, not all Calvinists believe in double predestination.

[dcurry]

I've wrestled with this some myself. First... I don't like to call myself a Calvinist, or a Baptist, or any certain denomination. Even "Non-denominational" seems to have certain beliefs associated with it. I believe what I do based on what the Bible teaches, not on what someone has interpreted it to mean. 1 Cor. 3:4-7 says, "4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?

5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth."

 

We went to a church that believed in pre-destination, and I had a conversation with them about it because it sounded like they were saying we don't have a choice.

 

I believe we have a choice, because the Bible teaches we have a choice. If I tell my child that he is allowed to choose whether to have cake or salad for dinner, I can influence him but since I am in charge and made the decision that he could decide, I'd need to let him decide.

 

I believe also that we can do nothing on our own. God gave us the ability to choose. He gave us life, He gave us our minds & brains, He put us with our parents, and ultimately His hand is in every part of our life. Without Jesus, I would not have any chance at all. Because of Jesus, I can choose God. We have nothing to boast about... we cannot boast saying, "*I* chose salvation" because God gave us that ability. It would be like the child at a birthday party boasting about himself receiving this great gift. If he boasts, it would need to be about the person who gave it to him.

 

We are limited in our understanding, whereas God is not. I think it's important to understand that God can do whatever He wants. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". Read the last part of Job to hear God's response to Job's questioning.

 

We view time much differently than God does. He knows the future, and knows our hearts, and knows what we would choose before we choose it. I think someone who would have the attitude of, "I was predestined, so why go to church and do all this work... I'll just have fun since I can't do anything about it anyway" wouldn't have the heart that would choose Him. One that has the attitude of desiring to go to church (not for works... but out of love, concern for others, with an attitude of service and learning, and praising & worshiping with other believers), one that understands the value of Godly things, God knows the hearts of the ones who desire to serve Him. He knows, and therefore has chosen us (the ones who chose Him) and I believe that He starts His work in us before we are even born.

 

I know God had His hand on my life from before birth, though my parents didn't even start going to church until I was in about 4th grade, and I was not fully committed to God until much after that. I am continually growing, but know that God will continue to work in me. He is the faithful one. My dad is not only not a Christian, but has seemed opposed to it in the past. He is more open now, but still doesn't believe there is a way to prove there is a God, and certainly no way to know Him. I have prayed for him continually, and know that God has had his hand on my dad who almost died about 20 years ago. The doctors were astounded at his recovery. I believe God will hear my prayers (and others prayers) and that God will bring my dad to salvation. I don't know that, since I don't know the future, but I wonder why else God would have saved him from physical death.

 

I do know I don't struggle nearly so much anymore. Well, not at all. I am content with the fact that God knows, and I desire to serve Him and will do so with all that I have. I know it's HIS strength that gets me through the day, and that He promises to provide all I need in order to serve Him. I can pray for others & know that God is just. I know that God is merciful & compassionate. And that His ways are not our ways, and that He knows better than I do. He is so much greater than I. When I see a weakness in myself (and I know there are oh so many), I pray for God's strength in that area and God is always faithful to provide.

 

Sorry so long... I hope some of that was helpful.

[dcurry]

BTW, about your loved ones, I do believe God answers prayer and that He can change hearts. I've seen it done when I didn't think it possible. So don't give up on prayer.

[Lovedtodeath]

I know that the Bible says we are God's elect. Without God's choosing us, we would never become believers. This is confusing because if God does the choosing and gives us the grace to believe Him (i.e. without Him touching our hearts and giving us the grace to believe, we would not have the ability to become Christians), then how can anyone be blamed if by themselves they can't come to God and become Christians and can't go to heaven as a result?

I want to believe that God does the choosing, but I also believe there is free will and people respond to God and choose Him. How do I reconcile the two and have peace?

 

Here is your straightforward answer, base on God's Word. Sticking to religious dogma, doctrine, man-made beliefs... what have you, keeps people blinded from the true answer in the Bible. God has the capacity to be all-knowing. He does not always use that ability. Look at those scriptures in Genesis about Abraham and Sodom and Gomorrah. Genesis 22:12 and Genesis 18:20,21. God said that He didn't know something! If you asked God how your life would turn out... will you be saved, do you know what his answer would be? That is up to you. You have free-will.

 

Compare God’s use of foreordination with the way he uses his power. As the Almighty, God has absolute power. (Psalm 91:1; Isaiah 40:26, 28) But does he use his power in an uncontrolled manner? No. For instance, he held back from acting against Babylon, an enemy of ancient Israel, until the time was right. “I kept exercising self-control,†God said. (Isaiah 42:14) The same principle applies to his use of foreknowledge and foreordination. God exercises self-control in order to respect the free will that he gave us.

 

The Bible teaches that God is selective when it comes to foreordaining the future. For example, God foretold that “a great crowd†of righteous humans would survive the destruction of the wicked at the end of the present system of things. (Revelation 7:9, 14) Note, though, that God did not give a specific number for that great crowd. The reason? He does not predestinate individuals. God is like the loving father of a large family. He knows that at least some of His children will reciprocate His love, but He does not predetermine the number.

 

 

 

--------------------

Carmen, follower of "the faithful and true witness." (Revelation 3:14)

 

There was a really good discussion about this at another forum with a great explanation. Please read this thread: http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4174 Especially the responses by MamaElephant and Fred Williams and in particular this one: #105 (if you want to skip the rest to save time). :001_smile: Fred Williams also has something on it here: http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/my_beliefs.htm Look at Openness Theology.

[ChristusG]

I don't believe in predestination. I believe that God created us in his image but that because we are born into this sinful world, we have an innate instinct to sin. I believe that God gives us free will to choose how we live our lives because he wants us to love him because we CHOOSE to love him, not because we are forced to. However, I do believe that God has designed great paths for our lives and we will only be on those paths if we choose to follow him. I also believe that since God knows all, then he knows the future and knows who will ultimately choose to follow him.

 

If predestination were true, then I would have no reason to teach my children the ways of the Lord because if they are one of the chosen then it will just naturally happen.

[MamaSheep]

I know that the Bible says we are God's elect. Without God's choosing us, we would never become believers. This is confusing because if God does the choosing and gives us the grace to believe Him (i.e. without Him touching our hearts and giving us the grace to believe, we would not have the ability to become Christians), then how can anyone be blamed if by themselves they can't come to God and become Christians and can't go to heaven as a result?

I want to believe that God does the choosing, but I also believe there is free will and people respond to God and choose Him. How do I reconcile the two and have peace?

It bothers me that my loved ones cannot believe simply because God chooses not to touch their hearts or give them the grace to believe and therefore they won't go to heaven.

It is easier for me to believe that God shows everyone His love; then some people choose to accept His love and gift of salvation and believe while others choose not to believe Him. Does this make sense?

If God did all the choosing and enabling, doesn't it make God alone responsible for our salvation? Doesn't it make it unfair that He chose some and not all? Since we are all sinners, we are equal in God's eyes; no one is better than another. Also if God did the all the choosing, then why bother evangelizing because no matter how much we pray and how much we share His love, those He chooses not to choose wouldn't believe anyway and those He does choose would believe no matter what.

Does my question make sense?

I am sorry for this rambling. I am simply very frustrated.

 

I understand those passages in the Bible differently. I'd be happy to discuss particular ones if you want to pick out passages of concern. There are other places in the Bible where God tells us we must choose, and one theme all through the Bible is that we are held accountable before God for the choices we make. I cannot fathom a God who would tell us to choose when it was impossible for us to do, or who would hold us accountable for choices we are unable to make.

 

I do think that God has "predestined" the way in which salvation is achieved--IF we are to be saved, there is only one way, and that was was established before the Earth was even created. And yes, sometimes our choices are limited due to the circumstances in which we exist, but there is always a choice, even if it is only the choice of what attitude we will hold in our minds about what is going on around us.

[6packofun]

I think that the line is drawn between God *choosing* and God knowing what we will choose. I tend to believe the latter, but Scriptures SAY He chose us...so now what? I don't like chalking hard questions up to "God's ways are mysterious" unless the Bible says that that specific thing IS a mystery. Doesn't God want to be knowable and approachable, not so mysterious as to frustrate those who try to follow Him? I mean, He knows how pathetically weak we are! LOL! ;) (I know we're not meant to know it all...but that's the hard part of faith for me personally. :D )

[angela in ohio]

If predestination were true, then I would have no reason to teach my children the ways of the Lord because if they are one of the chosen then it will just naturally happen.

 

God commands us to teach our children His ways, though. That would be a reason. :001_smile:

[MamaSheep]

I don't know of any Protestant or Catholic Christian who believes in pre-existance.....I think it is a very unique belief to those who are LDS or who believe in reincarnation of some sort.

 

I think though that regardless of pre-existance, the question could be asked no matter if you believe in predestination or not.....why does God keep creating people who may not follow Him? In your case, why would God keep creating those in heaven only to come to earth and not follow LDS? Why wouldn't he put all babies in an LDS family?

 

My questions are not necessarily to be answered, but just to point out that there are many questions regarding existence of man and depravations that we may not understand.

 

Dawn

 

This was already answered well but I just had a thought to add. Along with believing that we existed as spirits before we came here, LDS thought incorporates the idea that part of the reason we are here is to learn things. Because we are each individuals with our own strengths and weaknesses, and since each of us progressed and developed differently in our pre-mortal lives, each of us has different lessons that we need to learn while we're here, and different abilities we need to work to develop. Some people might not learn what they need to if they were placed in an LDS family to begin with. They might not face the specific challenges or ask the particular questions they need in order to advance properly in their individual development. From our perspective, God puts each person into circumstances that will present challenges and opportunites that will both teach and test that specific person according to that particular person's abilities, talents, and needed 'lessons'. So it makes very good sense in LDS belief that God wouldn't put every child into a happy LDS home.

 

And I have to say, the idea of God creating piles and piles of new souls that are, from the moment of their very conception, entirely depraved doesn't make sense to me either. I'm with Xuzi on that one. Not surprisingly...lol.

 

 

AH! Ok, I see. I have a lot more questions re: the whole idea of pre-existence, but that is a whole other thread.

 

I personally tend to be a little more liberal in my understanding of Hell as well, if that is really the right term (liberal).

 

Dawn

 

I stumbled across an intriguing-looking book about the concept of pre-mortal existence in western thought the other day. I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but here's a link to it on Amazon if this is a topic you're interested in. Evidently it presents evidence of this concept

 

http://www.amazon.com/When-Souls-Had-Wings-Pre-Mortal/dp/0195313909/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1300662613&sr=8-1#_

 

Here's a snip from one of the reader reviews:

Givens has a very impressive resume and is professor of Literature and Religion at the University of Richmond. He has done an extensive study of the subject of pre-mortal existence and the results are condensed into this book. Here he covers religion, philosophy, and poetry that cover this subject.

 

The book covers from Mesopotamian times to modern times. Highlights include Hebrew traditions, Plato, Gnosticism, Origen, Augustine, the Kabbalah, and the Cambridge Platonists. Philosophers that tackled this subject include Descartes, Leibniz, and Kant. In 19th century religion major players were Wilhelm Benecke, Joseph Smith, Edward Beecher and Julius Muller. Poets that covered the subject include Blake, Coleridge, Wordsworth, Shelley, Byron, Lermontov, Carlyle, and Goethe.

Edited March 20, 2011 by MamaSheep

[Lovedtodeath]

I think that the line is drawn between God *choosing* and God knowing what we will choose. I tend to believe the latter, but Scriptures SAY He chose us...so now what?

Perhaps we should examine the Scriptures that say that God chooses us. Care to list them so we can have a look together?

[Ellie]

So, then, you're not a Calvinist? Or else I'm confused.

Definitely NOT Calvinist.

[Lovedtodeath]

Here is another scripture related to this topic: “I shall bring them [the nation of Israel] to the ground that I have sworn about to their forefathers, which flows with milk and honey, and they will certainly eat and be satisfied and grow fat and turn to other gods, and they will indeed serve them and treat me with disrespect and break my covenant. . . . for I well know their inclination that they are developing today before I bring them into the land about which I have sworn.†--Deut. 31:20, 21

 

God’s ability to discern the outcome of their course did not mean that God was responsible for their actions nor was it what he wanted for them, but he could foresee the outcome because he could discern the bad attitude that was developing in their hearts.

[tntgoodwin]

Perhaps we should examine the Scriptures that say that God chooses us. Care to list them so we can have a look together?

Rom 8:21-30

Rom 9:11-13

 

Rom 9:15-16

 

Rom 9:21

 

:)

[DawnM]

Thank you Amy. Not sure I will take the time to read an entire book on the subject. It is not anything that I believe or will believe, but it is something I would like to understand why others believe and what they believe about it....is there a more condensed version? ;)

 

Dawn

 

 

This was already answered well but I just had a thought to add. Along with believing that we existed as spirits before we came here, LDS thought incorporates the idea that part of the reason we are here is to learn things. Because we are each individuals with our own strengths and weaknesses, and since each of us progressed and developed differently in our pre-mortal lives, each of us has different lessons that we need to learn while we're here, and different abilities we need to work to develop. Some people might not learn what they need to if they were placed in an LDS family to begin with. They might not face the specific challenges or ask the particular questions they need in order to advance properly in their individual development. From our perspective, God puts each person into circumstances that will present challenges and opportunites that will both teach and test that specific person according to that particular person's abilities, talents, and needed 'lessons'. So it makes very good sense in LDS belief that God wouldn't put every child into a happy LDS home.

 

And I have to say, the idea of God creating piles and piles of new souls that are, from the moment of their very conception, entirely depraved doesn't make sense to me either. I'm with Xuzi on that one. Not surprisingly...lol.

 

 

 

 

I stumbled across an intriguing-looking book about the concept of pre-mortal existence in western thought the other day. I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but here's a link to it on Amazon if this is a topic you're interested in. Evidently it presents evidence of this concept

 

http://www.amazon.com/When-Souls-Had-Wings-Pre-Mortal/dp/0195313909/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1300662613&sr=8-1#_

 

Here's a snip from one of the reader reviews:

[silliness7]

Everyone can choose God. Everyone is free to choose God. God does not stop anyone from choosing him.

 

However, because humans are utterly sinful, no one will choose him.

 

This is where God's grace comes in. In his goodness, he chose to change the desires of some and therefore they will choose him.

 

The real mystery is that God would predestine any humans, not that God hasn't predestined all humans. We are all so completely sinful that none of us deserve his grace and we more than deserve the wrath of the Holy God.

 

It's not unfair because nobody gets injustice. Everyone deserves his wrath. God is more than justified in condemning every single human being that has ever or will ever live. However, he chooses to pour out his mercy on some. What he never does is give someone what they do NOT deserve.

 

We evangelize and pray because God instructed us to. "Pray then, like this" (Matthew 6) and "Therefore, go and make disciples" (Matthew 28). For reasons I don't fully comprehend, prayer and evangelism are part of God's plan. We can't make anyone come to Christ, and we can't use prayer to make God change his mind, but they are still used. I know that when I do these things I am changed as my thoughts are directed more towards Christ.

 

I hope this makes sense--I'm still on my first cup of coffee.

 

:iagree: Awesome post! I'm glad I started reading through before jumping into a response. This sums up my beliefs on the issue very well.

 

My 12yo ds is asking some of these same questions and I've been going through it with him. He also asked about why should we evangelize if God has already chosen. I answered much the same as the post quoted here. It's good for my soul to proclaim the gospel. It strengthens my faith, even if the message doesn't take root in the one to whom I'm speaking.