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choirfarm

Have you seen Jay Wile's new post?

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Did anyone see this blog by Jay Wile of Apologia?

http://blog.drwile.com/?p=4602

 

Way to go!! I must say that although I am a Christian, I don't know that I am a young earth one. I see evidence for both sides. To be honest, I don't care. God did it and I hate science so I really don't care to investigate. But I love his philosophy of going to other classes that you disagree with. I cannot stand the philosophy ( and I ran into at Baylor..not from the faculty which is old earth but a few students) that if you don't believe in young earth then you can't be a Christian.

 

Anyway, I loved this post.

 

Christine

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Did anyone see this blog by Jay Wile of Apologia?

http://blog.drwile.com/?p=4602

 

Way to go!! I must say that although I am a Christian, I don't know that I am a young earth one. I see evidence for both sides. To be honest, I don't care. God did it and I hate science so I really don't care to investigate. But I love his philosophy of going to other classes that you disagree with. I cannot stand the philosophy ( and I ran into at Baylor..not from the faculty which is old earth but a few students) that if you don't believe in young earth then you can't be a Christian.

 

Anyway, I loved this post.

 

Christine

 

I did see that. It was very encouraging. I'm hoping more people will speak up in this way.

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ok.. made me look :)

 

agreeing with SWB's comment on the blog.

 

well said Dr. Jay. now I wish I had bothered to go say hi to him at Mid South. But he was always sitting in the lobby at food court and I was just too nervous to say hi.

 

-crystal

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How refreshing! I have previously read, and been horrified by, Ken Ham's "agree with my interpretation of the creation story or you are not a Christian" statements. I can't tell you how much more willing this makes me to buy Apologia products.

 

Terri

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Way to go!! I must say that although I am a Christian, I don't know that I am a young earth one. I see evidence for both sides. To be honest, I don't care. God did it ...... But I love his philosophy of going to other classes that you disagree with. I cannot stand the philosophy .... that if you don't believe in young earth then you can't be a Christian.

 

This is me too.

That *was* an excellent blogpost.

 

I *really* like Jay Wile, even tho I disagree w/ the way he presents some science [which is why I don't use Apologia as a spine]. We used Apologia General Science a few years ago and got the book signed by him at a convention... he said it made him feel like a rock star. ;) He was a VERY upbeat person and was amazing talking to kids about important topics, but at a level they could easily understand.

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Did anyone see this blog by Jay Wile of Apologia?

http://blog.drwile.com/?p=4602

 

Way to go!! I must say that although I am a Christian, I don't know that I am a young earth one. I see evidence for both sides. To be honest, I don't care. God did it and I hate science so I really don't care to investigate. But I love his philosophy of going to other classes that you disagree with. I cannot stand the philosophy ( and I ran into at Baylor..not from the faculty which is old earth but a few students) that if you don't believe in young earth then you can't be a Christian.

 

Anyway, I loved this post.

 

Christine

 

He deserves a standing ovation for that post.

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This is me too.

That *was* an excellent blogpost.

 

I *really* like Jay Wile, even tho I disagree w/ the way he presents some science [which is why I don't use Apologia as a spine]. We used Apologia General Science a few years ago and got the book signed by him at a convention... he said it made him feel like a rock star. ;) He was a VERY upbeat person and was amazing talking to kids about important topics, but at a level they could easily understand.

 

On the other side: I really like Ken Ham and don't really *like* Jay Wile, but I do like Jay Wile's books and I like this particular blog post. Seriously, I'd like to see more variety at conventions, even including people I may disagree with on either end.

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That's a really good blog post. Thanks for pointing it out. I kind of enjoy knowing both sides and reasons pro/con.

 

To be fair to Ken Ham, many people on the other end of the spectrum (Christian and otherwise) feel just as vehemently as he does that their way is the only way. When one studies both sides, one has to overlook a lot of venom.

 

I am personally fully confident that God did it. Which particular way was up to Him. I enjoy knowing and sometimes studying the different theories, but I would never consider someone a non-Christian because they adamantly believed one way or the other or anywhere in between. To me, it's all historical in a similar manner that we have different theories about Atlantis or anything else in history (non-reproducible) with some "facts" and many theories.

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Wow, a convention with more than one point of view? I'm sorry I'm missing it!!! Youngest is an upcoming senior, so we are winding down. I would have loved to have this several years ago. Other conventions, it seems like attenders walk around like zombies asking what they are supposed to be doing. Wow, think and pick for yourself, what a thought (okay soapbox finished).

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I loved the blog post. I especially liked the part about " listening to serious scholars who disagree with you is an important part of the process of critical thinking". That really stood out to me, so much so that I wrote it down.

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I think, rather than having cat fights via blogs they should just go ahead and have a DEBATE at the convention. Now THAT would be something. :)

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Guest Dulcimeramy
I think, rather than having cat fights via blogs they should just go ahead and have a DEBATE at the convention. Now THAT would be something. :)

 

:lol: I would drive a long, long way to see that.

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I think, rather than having cat fights via blogs they should just go ahead and have a DEBATE at the convention. Now THAT would be something. :)

 

:lol::lol:

 

you mean I'm not the only one who called it a cat fight? :lol::lol: I emailed a few of my friends saying "you got to read this tom cat fight on the internet". LOL

 

I'd have to leave the room or have a lot of popcorn to watch that debate. and in this corner..... in Ballroom A, we have the fight for the WWE (Worldview Winner over Evolution) champion of the convention.....

 

:lol:

 

-crystal

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Were there going to be a "debate" it would be nice if at least one of the interlocutors had a fidelity to science. *Sigh*

 

Bill

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Were there going to be a "debate" it would be nice if at least one of the interlocutors had a fidelity to science. *Sigh*

 

Bill

 

Ah come on, no need to get dirty. I didn't slam Wile, and neither should you. :D

 

(I know, or at least assume, that's not who you meant. ;) )

 

But seriously, while I think debate and discussion is good, somehow this whole blog as reality thing has changed turned people into cat-fighting ninnies who can't let anything GO.

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I think, rather than having cat fights via blogs they should just go ahead and have a DEBATE at the convention. Now THAT would be something. :)

 

I'd rather see the cat fight at the convention ;-) Might be entertaining...

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Were there going to be a "debate" it would be nice if at least one of the interlocutors had a fidelity to science. *Sigh*

 

 

and here's Spy Car... right on cue. ;)

 

 

They do.

 

....and without the sighing. ;)

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his view on young vs. old earth. He presents his point of view throughout the Physical Science text but does so while acknowleging the science behind the opposing point of view. It's done very respectfully. Because of that, I had no problem using his text.

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Perhaps I am thinking of the wrong guy/publisher, but I thought Jay Wile moved away from Apologia due to philosophical differences. eg: the direction in which they wished to take the series (even though he initially wrote the books).

 

 

a

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Perhaps I am thinking of the wrong guy/publisher, but I thought Jay Wile moved away from Apologia due to philosophical differences. eg: the direction in which they wished to take the series (even though he initially wrote the books).

 

 

a

He did. The new owner controls Apologia. I'm not sure what Wile is doing at the moment? Loved the fact he stood up to Ken Ham, tho'. ;)

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and here's Spy Car... right on cue. ;)

 

 

They do.

 

....and without the sighing. ;)

 

As I mentioned in my post (and I'm sure you know), to be fair to Ken Ham, those on the other side are just as vehement about their views... ;)

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While I am a young earth creationist, I have no problem with those that believe otherwise. And, if I were to discover that I am completely wrong, it would have absolutely no impact on my faith. I've tried to impress this on my children.

 

I have a friend who leans towards the "true Christians believe in a young earth" side and it drives. me. crazy.

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Perhaps I am thinking of the wrong guy/publisher, but I thought Jay Wile moved away from Apologia due to philosophical differences. eg: the direction in which they wished to take the series (even though he initially wrote the books).

 

 

a

 

 

yep that's right. the OP of this thread, probably didn't know that. she might edit a bit along the lines of "wile, the original apologia author". or something like that if she wanted to. no big deal. Wile sold the business a few years back, stayed on with them for a while, then last fall, he left. So new people own apologia. Wile's name is still on the books he wrote so it will take some time for that association to fade......

 

I also noticed that at Mid South convention, Jay didn't have a booth in the exhibitor hall? But he was very visible in the food court and welcomed people to join him. I just was too busy/uncertain/busy to stop at his lunch table. I heard him say something to the effect that he was in the food court so people could find him and talk to him.

 

kinda unusual for a speaker to not have a booth in the exhibit hall, but if he isn't selling anything... makes sense. I'm glad he made himself available to anyone.

 

-crystal

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yep that's right. the OP of this thread, probably didn't know that. she might edit a bit along the lines of "wile, the original apologia author". or something like that if she wanted to. no big deal. Wile sold the business a few years back, stayed on with them for a while, then last fall, he left. So new people own apologia. Wile's name is still on the books he wrote so it will take some time for that association to fade......

 

I also noticed that at Mid South convention, Jay didn't have a booth in the exhibitor hall? But he was very visible in the food court and welcomed people to join him. I just was too busy/uncertain/busy to stop at his lunch table. I heard him say something to the effect that he was in the food court so people could find him and talk to him.

 

kinda unusual for a speaker to not have a booth in the exhibit hall, but if he isn't selling anything... makes sense. I'm glad he made himself available to anyone.

 

-crystal

 

Wow, I didn't know all of this. Is there a link--somewhere I can go and read more about the details of Dr. Wile leaving Apologia and why? I'm curious.

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Wow, I didn't know all of this. Is there a link--somewhere I can go and read more about the details of Dr. Wile leaving Apologia and why? I'm curious.

 

 

Here's the 2008 press release about Apologia changes Hands.

http://www.apologia.com/news.php?item=34

 

 

It was 2 years later that he parted company (making it August 2010)

 

Here's his blog entry on that

http://blog.drwile.com/?p=2206

 

and from Apologia's point of view

http://www.apologia.com/news.php?item=73

 

Here are previous WTM discussion from this past august

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204721

 

 

happy reading and catching up

-crystal

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This actually makes me very sad...

 

This is petty and unproductive....there is nothing to be gained from this other than the fact that "Christians have different ideas of what it means to be a Christian." We knew that before Dr. Wile's post. I'd rather hear a good debate rather than this bickering.

 

Your either agree with Ken Ham or you don't. You either believe the Bible is accurate or you don't.

 

What I don't agree with is watering down your personal faith so others won't be offended. If I offend you, fine...If you offend me, I'll get over it. As Christians, we aren't supposed to be conformed to the world, rather we are to be a "peculiar" people.

 

Maybe I'm peculiar, but I agree with Ken Ham. We also use Dr. Wiles' Apologia Science.

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This actually makes me very sad...

 

This is petty and unproductive....there is nothing to be gained from this other than the fact that "Christians have different ideas of what it means to be a Christian." We knew that before Dr. Wile's post. I'd rather hear a good debate rather than this bickering.

 

Your either agree with Ken Ham or you don't. You either believe the Bible is accurate or you don't.

 

What I don't agree with is watering down your personal faith so others won't be offended. If I offend you, fine...If you offend me, I'll get over it. As Christians, we aren't supposed to be conformed to the world, rather we are to be a "peculiar" people.

 

Maybe I'm peculiar, but I agree with Ken Ham. We also use Dr. Wiles' Apologia Science.

 

:iagree:

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Were there going to be a "debate" it would be nice if at least one of the interlocutors had a fidelity to science. *Sigh*

 

Bill

 

This comment sounds like the liberal version of Ken Ham. I like the idea of listening with an open mind to those with whom we disagree in order to learn.

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This actually makes me very sad...

 

This is petty and unproductive....there is nothing to be gained from this other than the fact that "Christians have different ideas of what it means to be a Christian." We knew that before Dr. Wile's post. I'd rather hear a good debate rather than this bickering.

 

Your either agree with Ken Ham or you don't. You either believe the Bible is accurate or you don't.

 

What I don't agree with is watering down your personal faith so others won't be offended. If I offend you, fine...If you offend me, I'll get over it. As Christians, we aren't supposed to be conformed to the world, rather we are to be a "peculiar" people.

 

Maybe I'm peculiar, but I agree with Ken Ham. We also use Dr. Wiles' Apologia Science.

 

Actually, I wasn't following Ham's statements about his disdain for fellow Christians at the convention, so I find it VERY productive that Dr. Wile took a moment to say 'knock it off' and point out the pettiness that was running amok.....and that someone shared it here [since I don't follow Wile's stuff too much either]. I prefer to be warned about attitudes like that so I can be prepared for what people want to put out there.

 

I believe the Bible is accurate, but I don't agree with Ken Ham's attitude about his fellow convention speakers.

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This actually makes me very sad...

 

This is petty and unproductive....

Your either agree with Ken Ham or you don't. You either believe the Bible is accurate or you don't.

 

 

Maybe I'm peculiar, but I agree with Ken Ham. We also use Dr. Wiles' Apologia Science.

 

I totally agree!! The whole thing made me sad. Ken Hamm has a right to voice his issues just as much as Jay Wile does however reading Jay's post really has me bothered. I like both authors but I just agree with Ken Hamm on the Bible. I do understand Jay's point however I saw it as bickering (on both sides: Ken and Jay). Its not ok for Ken to bicker but ok for Jay to do it?????:001_huh::001_huh:

 

 

Again I like them both. I only use Apologia for Biology and AP (human Body).

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I think both these men do a tremendous dis-service to children by passing off non-science as "science" in "educational" materials. But without in anyway shrinking from a criticism of Wile for writing "science" textbooks which don't conform to scientific principles, I do have to give the man props for what is clearly a supportive voice for our hostess and Peach Hill Press.

 

Ken Ham and others of his ilk have started a smear campaign against SWB for being unBiblical for publishing works by Peter Enns. And we all know what being "unBiblical" beans in the code-book of people like Ham. So bonus points to Jay Wile for this blog post.

 

He will no doubt pay a price in some quarters for this support. Chickens do come home to roost, but for standing up against the likes of Ken Ham I say kudos for that.

 

Bill

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...however I saw it as bickering (on both sides: Ken and Jay). Its not ok for Ken to bicker but ok for Jay to do it?????:001_huh::001_huh:

 

 

gotta disagree here.....

 

Wile's point was that it's NOT ok to question another's Christianity, which is what Hamm was doing.

 

THAT's what wasn't ok, and why it was productive of Wile to point out that someone claiming to be a Christian [and teaching other Christians] was espousing such an unscriptural belief.

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I think both these men do a tremendous dis-service to children by passing off non-science as "science" in "educational" materials.

 

Actually, you have it backwards:

What makes their texts different from a basic science book is that it includes science AND scripture. It's obviously a text meant for a Christian: a Christian already accepts the scripture behind the science. And scripture stands on its own... it's not passed off "as science", it's included on its own merit: The Word of God.

 

I would hope that people are not doing a tremendous disservice to children by explaining this type of text the way you just did.

 

Simply put: Christians spend extra time studying The Scientist Himself.

 

At least they aren't trying to disprove God in the name of "science" lol....

 

talk about trying to pass off non-science as "science." ;)

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Ken Ham and others of his ilk have started a smear campaign against SWB for being unBiblical for publishing works by Peter Enns.

 

We are Well-Trained Borg. Prepare to be assimilated.

 

Will it never end? Do we REALLY have to all think alike in order to hang out here??? I happen to have decided agree with Ken Ham after researching the issues. What SWB does is her business (literally), but we all are free to have our opinions. You seem mighty worried about the way Ken Ham speaks to his own audience and on his own website, mercy.

 

These are pretty complex issues, and it's ok to disagree.

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We are Well-Trained Borg. Prepare to be assimilated.

 

Will it never end? Do we REALLY have to all think alike in order to hang out here??? I happen to have decided agree with Ken Ham after researching the issues. What SWB does is her business (literally), but we all are free to have our opinions. You seem mighty worried about the way Ken Ham speaks to his own audience and on his own website, mercy.

 

These are pretty complex issues, and it's ok to disagree.

 

I'm not even slightly "worried" about the ravings of Ken Ham. I do think his attempts to smear SWB are ugly and repugnant, but that is "true to form" with what I expect from the man.

 

I do feel bad for Susan that she has to endure such ugliness.

 

Bill

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I do think his attempts to smear SWB are ugly and repugnant, but that is "true to form" with what I expect from the man.

 

I do feel bad for Susan that she has to endure such ugliness.

 

Bill

 

uh oh... watch out......:iagree:

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I'm not even slightly "worried" about the ravings of Ken Ham. I do think his attempts to smear SWB are ugly and repugnant, but that is "true to form" with what I expect from the man.

 

I do feel bad for Susan that she has to endure such ugliness.

 

Bill

 

:iagree: But I can also turn it right back at you and say that it's just as wrong for you to smear others in the fashion you are doing. You are (and have always been since I've "known" you via this site) trying to smear Ham et al since you disagree with them. It's ugly and repugnant, but it's true to your form. I seriously doubt anyone is even "slightly" worried about your ravings.

 

BOTH sides have SCIENCE that supports their theories and places where they need to do more research to figure out. I know quite a few science minded folks who agree with Ham. I know quite a few science folks who agree with you. The intelligent ones (IMO) will honestly talk about the pros and cons of either belief admitting that neither has all the answers. The others spew venom about the other side. Those types ALWAYS turn me more to the "other" side when I read about them. It's human nature I suppose.

 

I really appreciate Wile's blog post.

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Have just woken up from a 14-hour sleep in an attempt to recover from that convention, which was hard not only because of the SWB and Enns-bashing that went on, but also because I am coming off a week where I started with a bad cold, spent three days with my father while he had emergency surgery, then got on a plane and went to a conference center, which (inevitably) produced bronchitis. Did the whole conference with almost no voice, and now all I want to do is get back on the plane and go home and see people who love me.

 

So, for my sake, could you knock off the creation-evolution discussion for a while? That's not what the OP and Wile are talking about anyway. Plus you guys NEVER get anywhere on this board with that discussion. Plus I don't feel banning people today, and I have control of the ban button because it's Sunday and the moderators are getting a break.

 

Plus I'd rather you go back to talking about civility, because I want to weigh in.

 

I spent a lot of time at this conference encouraging parents and giving them personalized advice on how to get past particular educational challenges with their kids. I'm not concealing the fact that I get paid for these appearances, and that selling books at them helps keep our business (and this board) afloat. But believe me when I say that if it were just a matter of money, you couldn't PAY me enough to do what I did this weekend. I really do feel a "call" to help people educate their children. I am a Writing Zealot out to spread the gospel of good prose. :-)

 

And in the middle of all this, people would come up to our booth and say, "Are you aware that other speakers are telling people in their workshops that Dr. Bauer is out to remove all Christianity from homeschooling and that's she's not even a Christian and that we shouldn't buy any of her materials?"

 

Oh, good grief.

 

Let me count the ways this is wrong.

1) It's not true.

2) It's tacky and unprofessional.

3) It's unchristian. Yep, you heard it here. No believer should EVER be in the position of passing judgment on another's spiritual life.

4) It's directly aimed at hurting the business of a competitor.

 

I don't criticize other vendors at conferences. Ever. The most I will do is offer any reservations I have about specific programs and curricula, privately, to individual parents, when they ask me directly whether or not I recommend them.

 

There is a point to this post, beside the obvious venting.

 

In an earlier thread, several people who use our materials mentioned that they wouldn't feel comfortable at a convention where I was speaking because they were in such strong disagreement with the other speakers who had been invited.

 

Could I ask you to reconsider?

 

People who support the OTHER speakers aren't staying home because I'm there. They're coming, and going to the workshops and filling seats, and recommending the workshops to others, and drawing into those workshops parents who've been unfamiliar with them in the past.

 

I wish that parents who like our materials, and don't like to see bullying and smearing, and who think tolerance of different of points of view to be a GOOD thing, would do the same for us.

 

SWB

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Susan,

 

What a shame that you have had to endure such awful behavior. Part of what is good about those conventions is that although they are so diverse. I would think that the Deans need to have a serious talk with this person/company. They obviously are going against a code of conduct, if not crossing some other more serious legal line (slander, et al).

 

I am a person who promotes these conventions as being Secular friendly, though they are not overtly so. I see that it is now, in some small way, becoming splintered.... that is bad. These conventions are huge, how can someone even begin to criticize another vendor/speaker like that? It is wrong, and I suppose, a way to try to effect sales. Dastardly.

 

I can't believe that I would agree with Jay Wile about anything, but he is right to support the speaker in question.

 

I look forward to seeing you and all the other DIVERSE speakers talk about HOME EDUCATION, at the HOMESCHOOL convention in Cincinnati, soon.

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:iagree: But I can also turn it right back at you and say that it's just as wrong for you to smear others in the fashion you are doing. You are (and have always been since I've "known" you via this site) trying to smear Ham et al since you disagree with them. It's ugly and repugnant, but it's true to your form. I seriously doubt anyone is even "slightly" worried about your ravings.

 

BOTH sides have SCIENCE that supports their theories and places where they need to do more research to figure out. I know quite a few science minded folks who agree with Ham. I know quite a few science folks who agree with you. The intelligent ones (IMO) will honestly talk about the pros and cons of either belief admitting that neither has all the answers. The others spew venom about the other side. Those types ALWAYS turn me more to the "other" side when I read about them. It's human nature I suppose.

 

I really appreciate Wile's blog post.

 

:iagree:

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I'm sorry you had to deal with that. :sad: I hope you never let it stop you from doing what you are doing, because what you are doing IS making a difference.

 

And on a lighter note, to make you feel better, we loved your high school talk.

 

My dd (15, glasses, green converse, wild curls in a wedge cut, owes you an apology for getting up twice! because she left our notebook somewhere) burst out laughing about the hat-on-backwards remark (she never does that) and I heard her tell her sister that they had to go to the doctor's by themselves in their respective senior years, cause she was pretty sure she would be one of those freshmen whose ear would fall off. ;)

 

:grouphug: You encouraged us and possibly saved some extremities, too!

Georgia

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