Negative children: "I can't do it!" "I don't like/hate it!"

[Ellyndria]

Seriously, what is up? The days are punctuated by various negative statements, and I can't stop him from saying them. Did your negative children ever grow out of being so negative?

 

He has just turned 6, and so far he can't control what he says yet, and no, I don't expect him to all the time, but it seems like he is not learning ways to cope yet. I've given him different ways to express himself when he's angry/upset. When he runs into something the least bit hard and wants help and I refuse to do it directly for him, something that I *know* he can do (I will *tell* him how to do things, give him specific instructions, but I will not do simple things for him that I know he is capable of or has done before himself.) But it all ends in whining/wailing/crying or lashing out verbally. ("I can't do it! I will never do it! I don't love you anymore!" etc.)

 

I'll tell you one of the more ridiculous things he's said, which he said a few minutes ago, "I wish I didn't have any hands!" This is me: :blink::001_huh: I mean, who says that?

 

The reason: He spread a blanket out, put a bunch of toys in it, and wanted to fold all four corners together to carry it all. I probably shouldn't have, but I helped him hold the corners while he got them all together (he wanted me to just do it for him, but he needs to learn to do things for himself, otherwise he will just want me to do everything. I compromised by holding it because it was so big.) Then he tried to pick it up. It was too heavy. I had already warned him that he put too much stuff in it and he wasn't going to be able to carry it. So he wants me to carry it around and downstairs for him. Not going to happen, when there's a simple solution for it. "Take some of the stuff out of it first." A tantrum ensues. "I lost the corners, I can't find them! (he hasn't tried)" I start to explain, "Take your hand and pull th..." which is where he yelled "I wish I didn't have any hands!" and then, "I can't do it! You do it for me! You come over here right now and do it for me!" all the while crying and wailing. I tell him I'm not going to listen to a tantrum, again repeat what he can do to solve his problem, and tell him he can do that, or he can go into his room until he can calm down. He goes to his room.

 

You might think I'm an ogre for not helping him more, but you have to understand he will never do anything for himself otherwise. He had to be forced to walk...at 19 months. He had to be forced to potty train, even though he had been going in the potty easily for over a year. ("Four year olds are not allowed to wear diapers." He trained easily, only 3 accidents the first week, and even kept dry at night. Perfectly capable, just didn't want to.) Had to be forced to try new foods... all new food. Give it time, he'll try it? No, he won't. I gave it time, plenty of time. He wouldn't. So we have a one bite rule.

 

He states that he doesn't like to learn things. (There is no love of learning here...) This includes pretty much learning anything besides superheroes/villains, dinosaurs, other things with big teeth.

 

He goes to Kindermusik and tae kwon do. He says he doesn't like them, and doesn't want to go (although there have been plenty of times when he was begging to go.) He doesn't want to try anything else.

 

He doesn't want to grow big and strong.

He doesn't want to get older.

He doesn't want to lose his teeth.

He doesn't want to practice...anything.

He of course doesn't like school (even though he picks things up fairly easily, it's not a matter of the wrong level material, it seems pretty perfect actually. He just doesn't want to do any work. At all. Ever.)

He doesn't want to pick up his toys (can't say I blame him there, but he has to do it anyway.)

Get the picture?

 

If anything is the least bit hard, he break down and wails and throws about his negative statements. If I make him do it anyway (which I do when I know he can do it), and he eventually ends up doing it, is he proud of himself and happy that he's done something that was hard? No, he just grumbles about it.

 

I really don't understand it all. I know it is his nature. My mom taught me how to do things by myself. I never cried for her to do things for me. I may not have *liked* to do certain things, but I never saw something as too hard, either. I was capable. I don't know where he has gotten the idea that he couldn't do things. I have always shown him how to do things or given detailed instructions when he has trouble. And he *does* pick things up quickly, if he will just DO them. It's the getting him to do them that's hard sometimes.

 

I just want to know... is there a light at the end of the tunnel?

 

Thanks for listening to my vent. Commiseration welcome.

 

Edit: Yes, I've probably posted about this before. No, I don't remember what the answers were. :P I think the wailing makes me forget.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Ellyndria

[SweetMissMagnolia]

I have noticed similar out bursts from my 8yr old--- "I hate my life" "I hate today"--the other day during one of his meltdowns he even said "I wish I was a dog!" LOL Zachary usually gets negative especially lately if he's frustrated about something or mad or doesn't get his way----I don't think he knows how to handle emotions well right now.....and I sincerely hope it changes--when he calms down I'll usually talk to him and talk to him about how he felt earlier and he'll usually say that he didn't really mean it.

[LibraryLover]

Are you doing all that stuff in your sig with a 5 year old boy?

[zaichiki]

My oldest is like that. He's always been like that. I used to think it was me (or the way I was homeschooling or the materials I was using or my expectations etc etc etc), but now I know it's NOT 'cause I have 3 more kids and they don't have this tendency/outlook.

 

It's a personality thing. (Sorry!)

[Joanne]

It sounds very much like special needs/developmental delays.

 

Do you have any professional help and support for him?

[zaichiki]

It sounds very much like special needs/developmental delays.

 

Do you have any professional help and support for him?

 

What kind of special needs or developmental delays?

[Joanne]

What kind of special needs or developmental delays?

 

Obviously, I have not evaluated the child and don't have him in front of me. I'm going to bold the parts of the OP that lead me to post what I did. I've observed it is not uncommon for the oldest's special needs to fly under the radar because mom and dad don't know the range of expected milestones and behavior.

 

Seriously, what is up? The days are punctuated by various negative statements, and I can't stop him from saying them. Did your negative children ever grow out of being so negative?

 

He has just turned 6, and so far he can't control what he says yet, and no, I don't expect him to all the time, but it seems like he is not learning ways to cope yet. I've given him different ways to express himself when he's angry/upset. When he runs into something the least bit hard and wants help and I refuse to do it directly for him, something that I *know* he can do (I will *tell* him how to do things, give him specific instructions, but I will not do simple things for him that I know he is capable of or has done before himself.) But it all ends in whining/wailing/crying or lashing out verbally. ("I can't do it! I will never do it! I don't love you anymore!" etc.)

 

I'll tell you one of the more ridiculous things he's said, which he said a few minutes ago, "I wish I didn't have any hands!" This is me: :blink::001_huh: I mean, who says that?

 

The reason: He spread a blanket out, put a bunch of toys in it, and wanted to fold all four corners together to carry it all. I probably shouldn't have, but I helped him hold the corners while he got them all together (he wanted me to just do it for him, but he needs to learn to do things for himself, otherwise he will just want me to do everything. I compromised by holding it because it was so big.) Then he tried to pick it up. It was too heavy. I had already warned him that he put too much stuff in it and he wasn't going to be able to carry it. So he wants me to carry it around and downstairs for him. Not going to happen, when there's a simple solution for it. "Take some of the stuff out of it first." A tantrum ensues. "I lost the corners, I can't find them! (he hasn't tried)" I start to explain, "Take your hand and pull th..." which is where he yelled "I wish I didn't have any hands!" and then, "I can't do it! You do it for me! You come over here right now and do it for me!" all the while crying and wailing. I tell him I'm not going to listen to a tantrum, again repeat what he can do to solve his problem, and tell him he can do that, or he can go into his room until he can calm down. He goes to his room.

 

You might think I'm an ogre for not helping him more, but you have to understand he will never do anything for himself otherwise. He had to be forced to walk...at 19 months. He had to be forced to potty train, even though he had been going in the potty easily for over a year. ("Four year olds are not allowed to wear diapers." He trained easily, only 3 accidents the first week, and even kept dry at night. Perfectly capable, just didn't want to.) Had to be forced to try new foods... all new food. Give it time, he'll try it? No, he won't. I gave it time, plenty of time. He wouldn't. So we have a one bite rule.

 

He states that he doesn't like to learn things. (There is no love of learning here...) This includes pretty much learning anything besides superheroes/villains, dinosaurs, other things with big teeth.

 

He goes to Kindermusik and tae kwon do. He says he doesn't like them, and doesn't want to go (although there have been plenty of times when he was begging to go.) He doesn't want to try anything else.

 

He doesn't want to grow big and strong.

He doesn't want to get older.

He doesn't want to lose his teeth.

He doesn't want to practice...anything.He of course doesn't like school (even though he picks things up fairly easily, it's not a matter of the wrong level material, it seems pretty perfect actually. He just doesn't want to do any work. At all. Ever.)

He doesn't want to pick up his toys (can't say I blame him there, but he has to do it anyway.)

Get the picture?

 

If anything is the least bit hard, he break down and wails and throws about his negative statements. If I make him do it anyway (which I do when I know he can do it), and he eventually ends up doing it, is he proud of himself and happy that he's done something that was hard? No, he just grumbles about it.

 

I really don't understand it all. I know it is his nature. My mom taught me how to do things by myself. I never cried for her to do things for me. I may not have *liked* to do certain things, but I never saw something as too hard, either. I was capable. I don't know where he has gotten the idea that he couldn't do things. I have always shown him how to do things or given detailed instructions when he has trouble. And he *does* pick things up quickly, if he will just DO them. It's the getting him to do them that's hard sometimes.

 

I just want to know... is there a light at the end of the tunnel?

 

Thanks for listening to my vent. Commiseration welcome.

 

Edit: Yes, I've probably posted about this before. No, I don't remember what the answers were. :P I think the wailing makes me forget.

 

One or two of those items, and I'd say personality. All of them, consistently throughout his development speak to issues beyond personality. The bold items are not age-appropriate.

 

I'm not in a position to evaluate, but I'd start with considering:

 

Asperger's

Sensory Issues/Sensory Integration disorder

Obsessive/Compulsive Disorder

Pervasive Developmental Disorder

[Bird Girl]

Sorry, I don't think these are developmental concerns at all. We know two perfectly charming (in all otherwise respects) children who are exactly like this. They share certain temperament traits, including being slow to warm up (having a withdrawal reaction to initial approaches), being emotionally intense, and having a generally negative mood. My own dear daughter is emotionally intense and can be slow to warm up, although, thank all the gods, her mood is typically balanced between negative and positive outlook. Here's a brief overview of the ideas of temperament: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperament

 

The temperament traits that are described above tend to be stable, long-lasting, and absolutely uninfluenced by parental efforts. You can teach different behaviors (within reason) but you will not teach a positive outlook to a natural grump. I personally have talked to one of our more negative friends about his tendency toward perfectionism, and he admitted, with some surprised introspection, that he does sometimes focus too much on a tiny negative at the expense of the larger positive. But he's eight, and pretty advanced at metacognition for his age. I know for both of our friends, their mothers need to schedule themselves some time to blow off steam with sympathetic friends.

 

It is my belief that kids with these temperament traits can grow up to be great people--they'll be skeptical of bad ideas, careful to plan ahead, and a voice of reason for their too enthusiastic friends. I also know that they can try the patience of their parents dearly. For my DD, who can be very much this way, we've had to institute behavioral rules: for example, you can feel however negative you like, but you may not say hurtful things. You can cry as much as you like, but you must do it in your bedroom. Finally, we've talked to her about her resistence to new experiences by telling her exactly what it means to have a slow to warm up personality. We are patient about some new experiences but push her to try others. (Yes, I did force a crying child to get on the Pirates of the Caribbean ride at Disney. She was smiling and laughing by the time she got off.) I will say, other parents do not always understand why my DH and I parent the way we do. We've learned to stick to our guns.

 

Of course, my son requires a totally different parenting style. :willy_nilly:

 

Who, me?

[Joanne]

Sorry, I don't think these are developmental concerns at all. We know two perfectly charming (in all otherwise respects) children who are exactly like this. They share certain temperament traits, including being slow to warm up (having a withdrawal reaction to initial approaches), being emotionally intense, and having a generally negative mood. My own dear daughter is emotionally intense and can be slow to warm up, although, thank all the gods, her mood is typically balanced between negative and positive outlook. Here's a brief overview of the ideas of temperament: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperament

 

 

 

I am familiar with range of temperment. I don't attach negative assumptions or judgment to special needs and I've known dozens of perfectly charming kids with them.

 

The constellation of behaviors, combined with the history and age of the child in the OP lead me to suggest getting the child evaluated. If, indeed, some of what she is dealing with is special needs, there are a wide range of services and support and help available that can help her with her son.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I was going to say delays as well. Both of mine have some issues, but my daughter is generally happy. My 6 yo ds is the negative one. He's "hates" everything. Newest is hating life and wishing he was never born (**He DOES have behavioral help, and these terms are copied, not his "true" thoughts).

 

He is still in regular PS, and they are finally evaluating him for math issues. This is something I've been up their butts about since August, and a huge source of tantrums at home! Anyway, our experience has always been that something is in the way. His biggest obstacle is his language. When he's mad at his sister, instead of saying he wants time alone, he starts screaming that he wishes she were dead. (another disclaimer: That phrase ended real fast. I allowed him to tell me that dd was being annoying, but made it clear that he was not allowed to say that. We also knew from the first time he said it, that he didn't mean it. It was just the fastest thing that would come out).

[luvtheOzarks]

Are you doing all that stuff in your sig with a 5 year old boy?

 

:iagree:

 

When two of my boys were this age, I held them back at Kindergarten--they just weren't ready to do formal schooling between the ages of 5-9. One son is now 21 and he took off reading at the ages of 10-11 and quickly caught up.

 

My now 10 year old has had eye sight and hearing issues in his early years and I even began thinking he was dyslexic, and started re mediating him with a dyslexic reading program, but here lately he's been telling me he hates the reading program with a passion (we're on level 3 out of 10) and I've seen him reading subtitles from the TV screen and the many signs around town, books, the mail, etc.--he's not guessing either but sounding them out. I'm not sure I can even give the dyslexic reading program too much credit because he's reading words we haven't covered the rules for yet.:tongue_smilie:

 

I remember times when my oldest son would hold his head and say his head hurt or he'd say, "this is dumb" which I later learned to translate as "I don't understand *any* of this", so I'd back off and come back later to it.

I'm seeing the same pattern in my now 10 year old, so I'm wondering a lot these days if it was just a matter of maturity on his part like I experienced with my oldest son.

My oldest is a girl and she took off early in her reading/writing skills, much like my youngest son who is 8 has done, but these two boys in the middle seem to be my late bloomers.

 

I've heard that some children are just that--late bloomers for formal education, but OTOH, I do realize that some children do in fact have developmental delays.

 

Just thinking my son who has not been formally tested, may have dyslexia, has given me a cause to be concerned and a strong appreciation for parents who know their children have learning disabilities--I really don't like that term b/c it pits a child against a "normal learning curve", but the only thing I've seen that is normal these days is the normal setting on my dryer and even it isn't an accurate term either since I have to re-dry a load due to outside factors--lint build-up on the outside vent or the fact that bulky items take longer to dry than other loads.:glare:

 

Not sure my ramblings were helpful.:lol:

[Murphy101]

I don't see any Special needs there either.

 

I would just continue to refuse to indulge the temper tantrums and negativity.

 

I would and am very much like bird girl in how I respond to my kids this way. We just handle it in a no nonsense matter of fact manner.

[Ester Maria]

I don't see any Special needs there either.

 

I would just continue to refuse to indulge the temper tantrums and negativity.

 

I would and am very much like bird girl in how I respond to my kids this way. We just handle it in a no nonsense matter of fact manner.

I agree.

[hsbaby]

I don't see special needs here either. I have a dd with PDD and an 8 year old ds much like your son. There is a huge difference in the way the two have tantrums and are non-compliant. It's hard to describe without writing a novel. DS is just negative. I can see him saying and doing all of the things you mention your son doing. He is definitely not special needs (he doesn't do these things at tutorial, gym, or in public). He saves all if it for me:). Dd, on the other hand, can't control her outbursts or emotions. The only thing that seems to help with my son is a written list of rules and consequences. I walk away from tantrums....I don't even acknowledge them. He will usually apologize later and admit he was over-reacting (though he will still try to justify it). So, I would say ignore the tantrums, explain the consequences once he has calmed down, ignore the tantrum that will follow the giving of the consequences.....and make sure to have consequences written down. We go over the rules at the start of everyday so that he is reminded of what will happen if he throws a tantrum or whines and complains all day.

[Mejane]

 

I'll tell you one of the more ridiculous things he's said, which he said a few minutes ago, "I wish I didn't have any hands!" This is me: :blink::001_huh: I mean, who says that?

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I know you're having a hard time, but I LOL at that. That's so something my son would say! He is much the same as yours in that he hates doing what he doesn't want to do. I just keep telling him, "Tough, do it anyway. If you spent half as much time working as you do complaining, you'd have been done last week." :glare:

 

Your son is still really young, but I bet you will find he can and likes to do things when he wants to. My son hated reading, couldn't memorize anything (so he said), couldn't sit still for two minutes, etc. Then he discovered theater. Suddenly, he could memorize a one-hundred page script and twenty songs, remember his blocking and dance steps, get ready to go to rehearsal on time... I now knew it could be done, and I stopped listening to him say, "I can't." The jig was up. :001_smile:

Edited March 13, 2011 by Mejane

[zaichiki]

Thanks, Joanne, for giving me an idea of what you were thinking. Developmental delays brings to mind, for me, kids who struggle academically and in other areas. OP's signature leads me to believe that her child is at least on par academically and not delayed there. Does the term mean something else?

 

I have good friends and family members who have ASD. My ds sounds a LOT like the OP's child, though I agree that I do not know him (and I'm not qualified to diagnose anyone) -- I have to say that my ds (and what I hear about the OP's child) is different from those I know who have ASD. It's a continuum thing, I know, but the behaviors are truly different. Funnily enough, I did, at one time, think maybe ds had some issues here. Three of the moms of the ASD kids I know laughed at me a bit. They said he was "all boy" and obviously intense, but ASD was different. They tallked me down.

 

I've been told by many, many people that it is common for gifted kids to be emotionally intense and have senstivities, but these are usually not severe enough to be labeled as a sensory disorder or an emotional disorder. My ds is a gifted kid. He is the poster child for Dabrowski's overexcitabilities. He's generally intense. I'm only describing my child and explaining our experience b/c he sounds so similar to the OP's description of her own child that I thought it might be helpful for her to hear our experience.

 

I agree with what hsbaby wrote:

"I walk away from tantrums....I don't even acknowledge them. He will usually apologize later and admit he was over-reacting (though he will still try to justify it). So, I would say ignore the tantrums, explain the consequences once he has calmed down, ignore the tantrum that will follow the giving of the consequences."

 

I don't know about OCD, but what I've *heard* about it from another homeschooling mom who has it makes me think it's not that. OCD sounds really pervasive and severe. (But what do I know? I honestly have no experience with it.)

[Bird Girl]

There's a definite difference between special needs and a negative, intense temperament. My DD is gifted, the young man I'm thinking of is on target for many things and gifted in a few, and our other friend is generally on grade level. They have friends and relate normally with their peers and with other authority figures. They would never have a tantrum at a public event, although whining and complaining are acceptable anywhere. :glare:

 

For my DD, when she was younger, she would lose it anytime her will was thwarted. It was worse when she was hungry, for sure, but other than that, there were no particular triggers from the sensory realm. Now, she does/did have some sensory issues--a particular one was related to her feet. It was obvious when she was tantruming over uncomfortable shoes, her clothing tag, or what have you. That was clearly out of her control. It would end once the problem was resolved.

 

I hear what you are saying about recommending that people get the help they need. However, I think that a theraputic approach could really backfire with some of these kids. My DD needs to be reminded not to take herself so seriously, to think of others before herself, and to downplay her own emotions. She does not need an approach that encourages her to focus on herself and what she's feeling at any one time. Her emotions are too much for her to manage, and she needs to be reminded that they are temporary and harmless, not that they have special importance and should be honored in every event. If we waited, as parents, until she was totally comfortable with every new experience, we'd be at home with an eight-year-old in a crib who ate rice cereal. Instead, we see it as our job to push her, to remind her that we won't let her get hurt, and to help her stretch herself to accomplish new things.

[LittleIzumi]

There could just be some anxiety issues. I have anxiety & I certainly feel like that often. Both of my dds also show similar issues sometimes (and one does have sensory issues & both seem in the gifted range). Dd refused to even try to read if there was more than 1 word she didn't know instantly & wouldn't even try for at least 6 months. I would not say your ds is delayed but with having to *force* him to try new things constantly that are normal developmental things, I think an evaluation would be helpful. Occupational or behavioral therapy can really provide a lot of great ideas & ways to help encourage age-appropriate behavior. I researched a lot about sensory issues & the OT and behavioral therapist still gave me very important techniques & ideas that I hadn't considered & that were tailored exactly to dd's needs at the time. :grouphug: Good luck!!!

[kchara]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I so could've written your post, except my son is 8 now. We've had him tested for special needs/developmental delays/anything else she could think of. The psychologist said he had EDD (emotional delay disorder), in addition to his ADHD, and probably ODD (oppositional defiant disorder), and didn't give me any help other than I should take him off his meds because they were making his outbursts worse and put him in school so he doesn't hate ALL women, just me. :glare: Lucky for her, we literally moved the next week out of town and I never had to see her again. We're getting him seen by a developmental pediatrician as soon as we can find one, because I'm just convinced something's not right. Even DH, who at first thought I was way overreacting, when he got laid off and was home full time for 5 months... he admitted something was REALLY not right. It isn't "typical boy" behavior.

 

All of that to say 1) you're not alone. :grouphug: And 2) if your mama-instinct is telling you there's something wrong, get him into a specialist. A therapist, a developmental pediatrician (our regular pedi was in way over his head with DS... try to find a developmental pedi who will notice signs others won't), and get some help. I wish I had listened more to me and less to others the past few years, telling me he's just being a boy.

[meena]

My 5yo struggles with a similar stubborn negativity at times. He is not developmentally delayed; he is rather bright and adept at most things to which he sets his mind.

 

I attribute part of his negative attitude as a way of asserting control over his actions and life. He is at an age of transition from 'little kid' to 'big kid'. He's no longer a baby or toddler that needs mommy and daddy for everything, yet he still wants to need us. My DS will whine for help getting dressed, brushing teeth, etc, not because he is unable to do it, but because he likes the support and feeling of his 'old' place in our family (being the little kid). He is proud of the big kid stuff he can do, yet still clings to being treated like a little kid too.

 

I've noticed that his negative behavior increases when he isn't feeling well, is especially tired, isn't getting enough down-time, hasn't been eating well, etc. You might want to assess your schedule (school and extra-curricular) from a 5yo's point of view. Does he have time to just be a 5yo? When you are doing less or more, do his behaviors change at all?

[Mom-ninja.]

He sounds a lot like my 7 yr old ds. He has Sensory Processing Disorder. If you want to get an idea if your ds may have SPD issues you can read The Out of Sync Child. Then you can decide if you want to have him evaluated. In my son's case you cannot ignore tantrums. Tried and it doesn't work. It worked for my oldest ds but not for my SPD ds.

 

Lack of sleep can also be a problem. Ds is having his adenoids removed because they are preventing him from getting quality sleep. I hope it helps improve his negative attitude as the Dr. has indicated it will. So you could look into physical issues such as allergies and sleep. A great book about sleep is Sleepless in America.

[myfunnybunch]

I have a ds that's a little like this. He is bright and perfectionist and intense.

 

The Out-of-Sync Child has valuable information about kids who are just a little more sensitive, even if your ds doesn't have diagnosable sensory issues. Raising your Spirited Child is a good read about kids who are just a bit *more*, including a great chapter on negative temperaments and the plusses that go along with it. I wouldn't entirely rule out developmental issues, because at this age it can be very difficult to weed out what's normal for an intense child and what is caused by a true delay in social-emotional development. That's something better discussed with someone who can meet with you and your child.

 

And, very gently because this seems to be a hot button for some parents, you might want to try backing off on the formal schooling for a little while and find some more play- and activity-based learning activities. Just to see if it makes a difference. This is not a comment on whether or not the academic activities you're chosen are an appropriate choice for him. It's simply something that's easily checked by taking a break for a 3 weeks or so. Especially with bright kids who are pretty intense, the differences in development between, for example, fine motor and cognitive and processing skills can be frustrating. (Thinking of the last time I tried to draw a bird...the difference between what I knew and what I could draw was very discouraging.)

 

Cat

[Joanne]

I should have said in my first response that I think the OP is doing a great job matching her son's intensity with an intuitive level of "push" and "support".

 

 

 

 

Thanks, Joanne, for giving me an idea of what you were thinking. Developmental delays brings to mind, for me, kids who struggle academically and in other areas. OP's signature leads me to believe that her child is at least on par academically and not delayed there. Does the term mean something else?

 

It's an umbrella term. It could emcompass phyisical milestones (such as walking) and developmental ones having to do with autonomy.

 

 

I have good friends and family members who have ASD. My ds sounds a LOT like the OP's child, though I agree that I do not know him (and I'm not qualified to diagnose anyone) -- I have to say that my ds (and what I hear about the OP's child) is different from those I know who have ASD. It's a continuum thing, I know, but the behaviors are truly different. Funnily enough, I did, at one time, think maybe ds had some issues here. Three of the moms of the ASD kids I know laughed at me a bit. They said he was "all boy" and obviously intense, but ASD was different. They tallked me down.

 

 

Yes, the behaviors and symptoms can be vague and ambiguous.

 

I've been told by many, many people that it is common for gifted kids to be emotionally intense and have senstivities, but these are usually not severe enough to be labeled as a sensory disorder or an emotional disorder. My ds is a gifted kid. He is the poster child for Dabrowski's overexcitabilities. He's generally intense. I'm only describing my child and explaining our experience b/c he sounds so similar to the OP's description of her own child that I thought it might be helpful for her to hear our experience.

 

 

I have heard, read and observed the same thing.

 

I agree with what hsbaby wrote:

"I walk away from tantrums....I don't even acknowledge them. He will usually apologize later and admit he was over-reacting (though he will still try to justify it). So, I would say ignore the tantrums, explain the consequences once he has calmed down, ignore the tantrum that will follow the giving of the consequences."

 

I agree that for many kids of this type, and at the OP's son's age,walking away is a viable option. With many kids like this, engaging makes it worse.

 

 

I don't know about OCD, but what I've *heard* about it from another homeschooling mom who has it makes me think it's not that. OCD sounds really pervasive and severe. (But what do I know? I honestly have no experience with it.)

 

 

Like many other things, OCD is a continuum. There are behaviors associated with the OP's child that could be tied to OCD thinking/processing.

 

I still think there is enough in the OP that getting evaluated is worth considering. I have also seen many situations in which a parent puts a behavior into "my quirky child" category. Often,these behaviors are not known by the parent to be a part of a bigger picture that is some kind of understood set of symptoms.

 

Thanks for this discussion.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Joanne

[Joanne]

I have a ds that's a little like this. He is bright and perfectionist and intense.

 

The Out-of-Sync Child has valuable information about kids who are just a little more sensitive, even if your ds doesn't have diagnosable sensory issues. Raising your Spirited Child is a good read about kids who are just a bit *more*, including a great chapter on negative temperaments and the plusses that go along with it. I wouldn't entirely rule out developmental issues, because at this age it can be very difficult to weed out what's normal for an intense child and what is caused by a true delay in social-emotional development. That's something better discussed with someone who can meet with you and your child.

 

And, very gently because this seems to be a hot button for some parents, you might want to try backing off on the formal schooling for a little while and find some more play- and activity-based learning activities. Just to see if it makes a difference. This is not a comment on whether or not the academic activities you're chosen are an appropriate choice for him. It's simply something that's easily checked by taking a break for a 3 weeks or so. Especially with bright kids who are pretty intense, the differences in development between, for example, fine motor and cognitive and processing skills can be frustrating. (Thinking of the last time I tried to draw a bird...the difference between what I knew and what I could draw was very discouraging.)

 

Cat

 

 

:iagree: Great post. Good suggestions!

[Abigail4476]

It never hurts to have your child evaluated if you sense an underlying issue. However, it's good to be pragmatic about behavior, too, and realize that some kids (people) have generally negative/pessimistic personalities and it's not something you "fix." You "deal." ;)

 

Add to that, kids go through phases of being positive and negative and eventually that should become a little more consistent.

 

If you think your son is overwhelmed, I would completely relax his schooling style. When I read through the OP, what stood out to me was a focus on milestones and accomplishments, and as another poster pointed out--there is a long list in the signature line for a 5 year old. I would focus on the absolute necessities and find something that he can engross himself in that is unstructured but requires him to be autonomously creative. (meaning, without parental guidance and interference) Don't insist on perfection, or even grand accomplishment, but instead celebrate whatever it is that HE finds enjoyable, even when it's imperfect. Relaxing about goal-setting and high educational expectations can take a lot of pressure off of a child, and can have the effect on some children of spurring them IN the direction of learning and creativity. Not all children thrive well in a highly structured environment fraught with high expectations and easily disappointed adults.

 

I'm not saying that everything I mentioned is the case for the OP, but just my thoughts in general. Children who are easily stressed need a more relaxed approach and they need a soothing environment.

 

Bonus: I highly recommend the book Simplicity Parenting. :001_smile:

[Abigail4476]

...And, very gently because this seems to be a hot button for some parents, you might want to try backing off on the formal schooling for a little while and find some more play- and activity-based learning activities. Just to see if it makes a difference. This is not a comment on whether or not the academic activities you're chosen are an appropriate choice for him. It's simply something that's easily checked by taking a break for a 3 weeks or so. Especially with bright kids who are pretty intense, the differences in development between, for example, fine motor and cognitive and processing skills can be frustrating. (Thinking of the last time I tried to draw a bird...the difference between what I knew and what I could draw was very discouraging.)

 

Cat

 

:iagree:

[kalanamak]

I use the Raising a Thinking Child techniques on negativity. Sometimes I think he stops just so he doesn't have to sit down and "go through" it with me. :lol:

[Angjune]

First, you're not alone and I think you're doing a great job! In retrospect, I wish I would have made my youngest do more for herself when she was your child's age. It was much easier, at times, to just give in and tie her shoelaces for her or do other things that she could/should have done herself.

 

My daughter is a sensitive child and now I realize that this could have played in to her neediness. Last year, in 7th grade, she was extremely negative, and i did all I could to try and change it around. Finally, I took her out of school to homeschool her and the negativeness disappeared. I don't believe she's said one negative thing about herself since I brought her home.

 

Since your child is already home, maybe if he has a tight schedule, perhaps try lightening it up a bit. Or, instead of always making him do everything himself, sometimes do for him to relieve the stress.

 

Good luck. Its hard as parents to listen to a child's negative thoughts.

[Peela]

My gut feeling when I read the OP was that there might be a developmental issue there. I agree with Joanne. A baby is not "stubborn" as such- its not like they deliberately decide not not walk- there is something else going on, perhaps emotionally.

However, as others have also said...even if there is....it doesn't mean the OP can do anything much other than what she is doing. She sounds like she is doing everything right.

I also think that more play and less school might be good, too.

But it is so hard to know- I would think a good check up might help, also, even if just to help the OP to gather information which might help her.

In the end though, you just have you and your child and your mama instincts. But if you find out there is some issue, it might help you not take it personally, and find more patience and peace around it. A dx of dyslexia didnt change a thing for my with my son but it encourage me to keep going as I was doing and it made us both feel a lot better about his difficulties. He also has some traits of what you are saying with your son, but not as extreme by the sounds of it.

[Joanne]

I use the Raising a Thinking Child techniques on negativity. Sometimes I think he stops just so he doesn't have to sit down and "go through" it with me. :lol:

 

These books are great, and under-utilized, IMO.

[Terabith]

I think you're son is the clone of my almost six year old daughter, down to the refusal to potty train. (My favorite line of all time: Mommy, I like m&m's a lot, but not enough to use the potty. It's MY body. And I don't want to.) And we have had her evaluated. They looked at sensory issues and Aspergers, and ultimately ruled out everything except an anxiety disorder. We're doing meds, and they help with the anxiety, which was a big thing, but doesn't seem to be connected to the negativity. I wish I knew what to do too.

 

ETA: I am definitely going to check out the Raising a Thinking Child books. It's so frustrating. While she walked and talked insanely early, she has always had to be pushed into every stage of development. (We're currently working on restricting pacifier use and sleeping in her own bed.) She is crazy negative and doesn't want to do ANYTHING. She's also insanely lazy about anything remotely resembling work. "Pick up the dress up clothes by your foot and put them in the hamper two feet away" results in huge tantrum. And walking away/ sending her to her room causes massive panic attacks due to anxiety.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Terabith
hit submit too soon

[deacongirl]

I was thinking possibly intensity/perfectionism due to giftedness as well. Worth a consult IMO to sort it out.

[texasmama]

My brief thoughts for what they are worth before I fall into bed: anxiety and/or Sensory Processing Disorder. Love The Out of Sync Child.

 

Much of what your child says would make me laugh, too. I don't think that is necessarily a bad response. Whatever the cause, he is struggling...and so are you. There is help available - professional help. I'm a big believer in utilizing all of the resources at my disposal.

 

FWIW, I have a child who can be a bit intense. He also has some diagnosable issues. I tend to ignore much of the low level complaining that he does. Like Dory, I just keep swimming. If I responded to every one of his complaints or refusals, we would be locked in never ending cycle of discussion.

 

Also, I would absolutely back way off on the academics with a 5 year old. I have a 5 year old, and my goals for her this year are to learn to read and to do whatever handwriting and math that she wants to do. She is reading so the rest is icing on the cake. Do less formal stuff. Play more.:001_smile:

[OnTheBrink]

I was thinking possibly intensity/perfectionism due to giftedness as well. Worth a consult IMO to sort it out.

 

I was thinking this, too. My dd is the same way (she's 13) and has been identified as "gifted".

 

Her default is, "I don't like/can't do it". When she was 5, she absolutely refused to read "Frog and Toad" simply because she hated the colors on the cover. I MADE her read it. She fussed and fumed. And when she read it, she loved it. It's like that with everything. She gets intensely mad and frustrated with change and new concepts. Some days are disastrous. But, I pick very carefully what I back down about versus what I push on. Ninety-nine percent of the time, if I don't back down, she'll either learn it or love it (depending on which is appropriate). If I find her frustration is that she's not grasping something, we slow down and work longer, but for the most part, her issues lie with just not wanting something different or new. She has even melted down in tears over a new lesson in MUS, simply because she'd never seen it before!

 

I don't know if this is your child's issue or not, but I think it's worth at least looking at. :001_smile:

[Ellyndria]

Thank you for the responses. I will start with the easiest first.

 

 

Are you doing all that stuff in your sig with a 5 year old boy?

 

Unfortunately no. The sig is old, I need to update it. First of all, he is now 6 years old. HWT1 was finished in December, and has been replaced by WWE1. DWC has been dropped in favor of homeschool art classes at the museum, GTG and BFSU have fallen by the wayside, and La Clase is very sporadic.

 

I assume the question has been asked because people think it is too much for for his age. Yes, we started it at 5.5. No, I don't think it's too much. Yes, I have questioned it myself, "Is it too much? Is it too little?" Considering that everything but the basics has fallen by the wayside for now, no, I don't think it's too much. I hope to get back into BFSU this spring, and DH has volunteered to take over geography later this spring.

 

Why do I think it's not too much? He has been reading fluently since he was 4.5, having started to recognize words by himself since before he was 4. Reading came easily to him, and he reads a lot on his own. He will tell you he didn't like learning to read, but he frequently brings books in the car to read and has even been spotted following me around the grocery store with his nose in a book. AAS1 is really very easy for him, and we could move on, but I think he needs the practice and confidence it will bring him anyway. FLL1 and WWE1 are very gentle and barely take any time at all. Rightstart B is *perfect* for him, and he does like playing the games. I cannot even begin to tell you how perfect it is for him, and it comes fairly easy for him, but not too easy.

 

For those concerned it is taking too much time, and he doesn't have enough time to play, he does. It is usually 2-3 hours max and that is *including* readalouds and breaks. He usually plays in the morning while I am still waking up and making breakfast (and I take a long time to wake up), and then he has all afternoon to play as well.

 

Then occasionally there are the days when he is completely absorbed in imaginative play, or making crafts, or reading, and I don't want to interrupt him, so I will just let him do that for however long he is absorbed in doing so.

 

And, I do notice a difference when he doesn't do school. He tends to be more restless, which is not so good. However, on the days we do school, afterwards he tends to play much better.

 

I really don't think a couple hours of mom-directed school activity is so bad. He is kindergarten age this year, and if he went to public school, all that they have here is full day K. I don't agree with full day K, but it is keeping things in perspective that he does need to do *some* work this year. I've taken the advice I've seen many times on this board: to keep the skill subjects at his personal level, but keep the content subjects at his grade level. So math and language arts at his level, but for example he will start first grade history (SOTW1) in the fall, when he is officially in first grade.

[LittleIzumi]

Just wanted to add a :grouphug:!

[Ellyndria]

First of all, thank you very much to those who have shared their stories about their children who are similar. It is very helpful to read them.

 

So, as I made my original post, I was thinking, "You know, I'm putting only the negative aspects in here. I should put some positive things in too." But I didn't, as the post was getting so long already. Also, I was in vent mode, and I hope we can all remember that we only see the bad side of something when a person is in vent mode. So, I was frustrated when I posted, but posting was theraputic for me :) so I calmed down afterwards.

 

First of all, he never tantrumed as a toddler. And the tantrums now don't happen that often; I don't want people thinking they're an everyday occurrence or anything. But oh, the whining. I am so done with whining.

 

What I didn't remember yesterday, was that I think some of the negative things he says have simply become a habit for him. I forgot that there are times lately where he starts to ask me to do something for him, but then says, "Nevermind, I did it." I can only hope he will continue to try to do things first rather than asking for help immediately.

 

I think laziness just kicks in big time. I can't remember exactly, but someone posted that a baby isn't stubborn. I don't know about that. Sometimes it seems like he just has no gumption. He has to be pushed to do things... yes we had to push him to walk, but when we did, it came fairly easily for him (as he had been cruising around the furniture for months.) He just didn't want to do some of the things I mentioned in my first post, but when he was pushed, it was easy for him.

 

When he was 3, he was obsessed with The Incredible Hulk. He wanted to be Hulk, I mean he wanted that to be his name. I was worried for a long time about that. :tongue_smilie: But he grew out of it, and branched out to liking many more superheroes and villains. I was worried, but later learned that a lot of 3 year olds can be obsessed with something, and he grew out of it, so I really don't think OCD is a possibility. I think people with true OCD would laugh if they knew him and I suggested it.

 

For those who mentioned The Out-of-Sync Child... I already read it a couple years ago, as I was curious. As I was reading it, I was thinking, "Yes... but really, no." He isn't as extreme as any of the examples in there. The reason I read it was because of noise.. he can be pretty loud, and talks a lot, and loves to make noise... but maybe he's just being a boy there. Maybe *I* am more sensitive to his need to make noise, because I am an introvert and *I* don't like to be talking all the time and I value quiet alone time.

 

However, he's actually more quiet when he's just around me, but when daddy's around, he gets a little nuts. The two of them chatter constantly, and after so long I just want to push the off button! Heh.

 

So then I start thinking about... well maybe it's just in the genes. DH will pretty much ask for my help on everything too, when I think he should be capable of doing things himself... he is an adult, afterall. DS talks a lot... and so does DH, and so do a couple of the grandparents, and they are all loud, too. DS is stubborn... well, DH and I can certainly be stubborn too. However the negative "I can't do it!" statements are a new one for me.

 

And for some good traits: DS is very loving. He questions everything (I am choosing to think of this as a good trait, even if it can drive me up the wall at times). He has a wonderful imagination.

 

The imagination he gets from his mom..me. :D I tend to have an active imagination and have flirted with pondering the various disorders listed in some of the replies here... But. I also have a very logical side, the logical side and the mommy-instinct are telling me that he can be intense, but that there is nothing inherently wrong here, or at least nothing that would be better served by seeking a diagnosis. Surely someone can have a strong personality without having something wrong with them? I also somehow think it would be damaging to his psyche if I were to suddenly start taking him to doctors for no apparent reason... he questions everything, remember. I do promise to listen to the mommy-warning-bells if they ever start to go off, though. However, they have to be real mommy-warning-bells, not the crazy-imagination-bells.

 

I realize I did use some strong language yesterday, such as not learning to cope. I probably instead should have said he is not learning the appropriate responses, not learning to think before he speaks (are new 6 year olds expected to think before they speak all the time though?)...but! I've been thinking about this today, and I think he actually is starting to...lately when I tell him to do things, he *has* been saying, "Okay" sometimes rather than immediately fighting me with a why or a whine. So, he might be learning, slowly. What I said earlier, I think part of the negative comments is habit, and habits are not broken or remade easily or fast.

 

Anyway, thanks again for all the comments, I plan on reading them again later. Please do not feel as if I have brushed any of them off, I will read and consider them all again.

[Joyofsixreboot]

So perhaps some of the issue is a personality mismatch between your ds and yourself along with negativity. Being aware of that can help (we have some mismatches here) and you've been given good advice so :grouphug:

[Joanne]

Why do I think it's not too much? He has been reading fluently since he was 4.5, having started to recognize words by himself since before he was 4. Reading came easily to him, and he reads a lot on his own. He will tell you he didn't like learning to read, but he frequently brings books in the car to read and has even been spotted following me around the grocery store with his nose in a book. AAS1 is really very easy for him, and we could move on, but I think he needs the practice and confidence it will bring him anyway. FLL1 and WWE1 are very gentle and barely take any time at all. Rightstart B is *perfect* for him, and he does like playing the games. I cannot even begin to tell you how perfect it is for him, and it comes fairly easy for him, but not too easy.

 

Here's the thing, though. Most of us observing and posting to that have been through these ages with at least one child, often more. Early reader does not mean early maturity. It just means early reader. :)

 

A young boys' readiness for formal academics varies widely. Trust me when I tell you that the level and intensity of formal academics in an all day kindergarten is small. Being there all day does not translate to copious amounts of quality academics. In fact, that much formal academics for littles is often counter-productive. I've worked *in* public schools, supervising the homework of grade schoolers. What the 5th grade and unders do in terms of homework and "getting it" isn't belied by the work they are given.

[LittleIzumi]

First of all, he never tantrumed as a toddler. And the tantrums now don't happen that often; I don't want people thinking they're an everyday occurrence or anything. But oh, the whining. I am so done with whining.

 

For those who mentioned The Out-of-Sync Child... I already read it a couple years ago, as I was curious. As I was reading it, I was thinking, "Yes... but really, no." He isn't as extreme as any of the examples in there. The reason I read it was because of noise.. he can be pretty loud, and talks a lot, and loves to make noise... but maybe he's just being a boy there. Maybe *I* am more sensitive to his need to make noise, because I am an introvert and *I* don't like to be talking all the time and I value quiet alone time.

And for some good traits: DS is very loving. He questions everything (I am choosing to think of this as a good trait, even if it can drive me up the wall at times). He has a wonderful imagination.

 

The imagination he gets from his mom..me. :D I tend to have an active imagination and have flirted with pondering the various disorders listed in some of the replies here... But. I also have a very logical side, the logical side and the mommy-instinct are telling me that he can be intense, but that there is nothing inherently wrong here, or at least nothing that would be better served by seeking a diagnosis. Surely someone can have a strong personality without having something wrong with them? I also somehow think it would be damaging to his psyche if I were to suddenly start taking him to doctors for no apparent reason... he questions everything, remember. I do promise to listen to the mommy-warning-bells if they ever start to go off, though. However, they have to be real mommy-warning-bells, not the crazy-imagination-bells.

 

I realize I did use some strong language yesterday, such as not learning to cope. I probably instead should have said he is not learning the appropriate responses, not learning to think before he speaks (are new 6 year olds expected to think before they speak all the time though?)...but! I've been thinking about this today, and I think he actually is starting to...lately when I tell him to do things, he *has* been saying, "Okay" sometimes rather than immediately fighting me with a why or a whine. So, he might be learning, slowly. What I said earlier, I think part of the negative comments is habit, and habits are not broken or remade easily or fast.

 

Anyway, thanks again for all the comments, I plan on reading them again later. Please do not feel as if I have brushed any of them off, I will read and consider them all again.

 

Ahhhhhh. First off, yay for you listening to your mommy-instincts. They will guide you well, generally. With that added info, he sounds like my older dd. My younger dd is the one with the sensory issues & my mommy radar was going off almost from day 1. I finally had her evaluated at 17 months & she went straight into therapy. She's still... INTENSE but it's mostly the giftedness & personality now.

But my older dd... she sounds a LOT like your ds. Taught herself to read--but then found out she couldn't read every word, just the simple ones, freaked out, & refused to even try to read for six months. :glare: And then went back to teaching herself to read. She asks "why" On e.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g. She freaks out about music sometimes (she used to dissolve into tears when certain kinds of music played) but the Out-of-Sync Child never fit her. I forced her to potty train (she could do it, she used the potty for a week straight in the summer but would rather use diapers & refused to use the potty if there was a diaper available. So I took them away when she turned three. Tough, kid :lol:. She PLed within two days). However, she would still LOVE it if I told her she could go back to using diapers. And she's 5. And the whining, aaaaaaaah, lol. She gets frustrated easily & we're working on expressing that in words instead of a frustrated screech or half lashing out. It's funny to hear her little voice tell me she's "so FRUSTRATED right now!!!!!!!!!!" Her imagination is through the roof. I don't have much advice but definite sympathy!!! Dd's big outlet is through art. She draws for I'd guess a couple of hours a day. I finally caved to the inevitable & let her decorate her own room. She has several murals around the room on various themes (herself pretending to be a boy to be a knight, Harold & the Purple Crayon, a giant bug) and tons of letters & numbers inscribed all over the walls.

:grouphug:

 

ETA: I have often wondered about that dd having ADD (her father has severe ADD) or anxiety (which I have) or both, but she hasn't been evaluated for anything. She manages herself well enough for her age. If things get worse for her I'll have her evaluated though. ADD treatment made such a huge difference in dh's life.

Edited March 14, 2011 by LittleIzumi

[zaichiki]

Here's the thing, though. Most of us observing and posting to that have been through these ages with at least one child, often more. Early reader does not mean early maturity. It just means early reader. :)

 

A young boys' readiness for formal academics varies widely. Trust me when I tell you that the level and intensity of formal academics in an all day kindergarten is small. Being there all day does not translate to copious amounts of quality academics. In fact, that much formal academics for littles is often counter-productive. I've worked *in* public schools, supervising the homework of grade schoolers. What the 5th grade and unders do in terms of homework and "getting it" isn't belied by the work they are given.

 

I'm currently on my 3rd 5-year-old and the OP's description of her ds's formal academics doesn't sound like too much to me. Her descriptions in her recent post sure sound like she knows what her ds can handle and what he is capable of without expecting too much.

 

OP- I can really see my child in your descriptions. I think you're absolutely on the right track. :D