Young Life -- what do you think of this kind of Christian outreach?

[MamaAkins]

See this makes me sad about the world... why is it assumed that someone who shows kindness toward others is "creepy"? (Don't we have a RAOK thread started up here right now? I guess a lot of those - things done out of kindness, caring, etc, could be "creepy" too.)

 

Someone cares - deeply - about other people and wants to share the truth about Jesus with them.... that comes from love, not from 'creepy' things.

 

I get what you're going at, but I just refuse to live under those sorts of assumptions... with that kind of fear....

 

(this was on my mind recently, after reading another thread here with a lot of people going "never trust anyone!" ... I just can't live that way.)

 

/slightly rambling

 

:iagree: It makes me so sad that people just "jump" on things...always trying to make them into something creepy or sinister. I had a feeling when this thread started that it would turn into something blown way out of proportion. It makes me pretty sad to live in such a jaded world.

[chiguirre]

This whole thread has blown me away. You mean a school just allows random "young men" to watch practices every day? Someone who is not a parent or affiliated with the school in any way? He just sits there and watches the boys, none of whom he knew, run around a field? Then slowly gains their trust by initiating small, "I'm just interested in you!" conversations with the boys??? I"m sorry-- that just screams "CREEPER!!!!" to me!

 

I would be very, very uncomfortable with this. Does this not ring alarm bells with anyone else?

 

astrid

 

This sort of thing is what happened at my school. The befriender was the son of the superintendent of schools. People were very upset about a non-student (he'd graduated several years earlier) wandering around campus inviting kids to a group that didn't accord with their theology. Long story short, YL was banned and the superintendent retired. I think the school became a lot more careful about controlling access after this incident.

[Renee in NC]

See this makes me sad about the world... why is it assumed that someone who shows kindness toward others is "creepy"? (Don't we have a RAOK thread started up here right now? I guess a lot of those - things done out of kindness, caring, etc, could be "creepy" too.)

 

Someone cares - deeply - about other people and wants to share the truth about Jesus with them.... that comes from love, not from 'creepy' things.

 

I get what you're going at, but I just refuse to live under those sorts of assumptions... with that kind of fear....

 

(this was on my mind recently, after reading another thread here with a lot of people going "never trust anyone!" ... I just can't live that way.)

 

/slightly rambling

 

My brother was "saved" by a really good Young Life leader in a different sense - he was headed down the wrong path at 14 or so and the YL leader showed him that you could have fun without drinking, drugs, or sex. He was very involved in YL as a high schooler - students were generally recruited/invited by other students, not the adult volunteer. It was mostly fun, not much in the way of Bible studies, but definitely Christian.

 

There is a whole long story here, but my brother is now the Director of Field Operations for a similar organization devoted to the formation of Catholic young men. How he got there is a story of some SERIOUS Providence. (It's a little different than YL because of the Catholic focus, but it does include some of the main principles of YL.)

 

I do understand the upset at parents who would not want their children "evangelized" without their knowledge or permission. Whether that happens is going to come down to the individual Young Life volunteer and the YL area executive who is training him or her. All YL volunteers are screened and trained. Part of that training is appropriate boundaries with the kids - my brother's YL executive was very clear with his volunteers about not undermining parental authority. They wouldn't have tolerated kids coming against their parent's wishes. Evangelism was not their primary function.

 

Taken from the official YL website:

 

This is the first step of a lifelong journey; the choices they make today, based upon God's love for them, will impact future decisions … careers chosen, marriages formed and families raised. All ripples from the time when a Young Life leader took time to reach out and enter their world.

 

This was very, very true for my brother. Thinking back on the story of how he got from the headed-for-trouble kid who was befriended by a REALLY tall, overly extroverted guy named Murph to where he is today is a really miraculous story. Murph's motivation was not evangelism - he just cared about kids and wanted to make a difference. Mentoring can be a powerful thing.

 

When my brother was involved with YL and then later with a Catholic parish who hired him to be "Young Life" in their schools, he spent a lot of time with parents as well. His goals were not hidden - he was open with the fact that he was a Christian and his goal was developing relationships and mentoring teens. As a Catholic leader, he spent a lot of time chasing paperwork for kids, getting their parents to sign it, etc. so they could complete their Sacraments. He was good at what he did - the majority of the attenders at weekly Adoration were teens!

 

The schools aren't letting "random" young men be involved in the school anymore than they let "random" young men tutor students. There are volunteers at my dcs' schools that are not parents and many are not even education students. There is a local young woman I know who spent a lot of time tutoring/volunteering with my special needs 9yo before his IEP was completed - she had been homeschooled, but volunteered in the school because she wanted to. YL isn't any different. If you don't want anyone volunteering at the school who isn't a parent of a student or student teacher, then you'll have a problem with both of those.

 

I get that there are some people who think the whole thing is disgusting and subversive - I am not trying to change your minds.;) I just wanted others to see that it isn't quite as terrible as all that has been said.

Edited February 11, 2011 by Renee in FL

[Renee in NC]

I'd be angry if a ADULT tutor was inviting my kid to their church.. Or anywhere else for that matter.

 

It seems inappropriate for an adult to be "cultivating a relationship" and "inviting" a teen anywhere. Is it just me or that sounds kinds of icky?:001_huh:

 

Sounds like the same problem as schools in general. A lack of proper priorities.

 

Just teach/tutor the *insert core subject here*. That's the only reason the kid is there, so do it.

 

I never knew that YL volunteers went into the schools as tutors - I haven't ever heard of that. If someone lies to get a foothold in the school, then that is not good. Lots of groups come into the schools to recruit - Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, the various military branches, etc. As long as none of it is forced (and in my mind, done against the parents' wishes), then I don't have a problem with it.

 

Most YL volunteers are college kids. People older than that generally have to financially support themselves.:lol:

[HRAAB]

No one should be approaching my children about attending religious meetings or going to church with them, in anyway, without first getting my approval - which they wouldn't be getting! I find that totally out of line. If these people are going into schools for tutoring or coaching with the intent of trying to evangelize, I feel that is dishonest. In fact, I'm surprised this happens in schools.

 

I have absolutely no problem with student led clubs. That's fine. Anyone trying to get to my children through other means, no okay.

[Pretty in Pink]

I don't see the difference either. There's a line that should not be crossed. Go there to help. Inviting them (the students or the poor people) to a church service should be secondary, not the primary goal.

 

I think it's unethical when people volunteer at a school for the sole purpose of recruiting students for their religion. I think it's unethical for people to go to a poor country under the guise of building houses or healing sick people when their real goal is to "save their souls".

 

I am a Christian, and I agree 100%.

 

The stranger hanging out at football practice sends my creep-o-meter through the roof.

 

I am disgusted by the practice of infiltrating a public school under the guise of tutoring students with the intent to convert them to one's own faith. Disgusted.

[Renee in NC]

I am a Christian, and I agree 100%.

 

The stranger hanging out at football practice sends my creep-o-meter through the roof.

 

I am disgusted by the practice of infiltrating a public school under the guise of tutoring students with the intent to convert them to one's own faith. Disgusted.

 

As far as I know, YL does not send volunteers in disguised as tutors. YL only goes into schools that are willing to let them in and as far as I know, they don't "sneak in" disguised as tutors. The schools are well-aware of what they do and what the focus is.

 

There are different YL groups as well - middle school, special needs, high school, teen mothers, college students, etc.

 

It *is* a ministry, but lots of groups of various beliefs and non-beliefs work with teens.

[freethinkermama]

:iagree: It makes me so sad that people just "jump" on things...always trying to make them into something creepy or sinister. I had a feeling when this thread started that it would turn into something blown way out of proportion. It makes me pretty sad to live in such a jaded world.

 

It depends on your definition on "sinister." I think ulterior motives, whether "good" or not are always "sinister." It's deceptive.

 

"I'm here to help" ("but what I really want to help with is converting you.")

 

Maybe I'm different here, but even as a Christian I'd have rather had my child mentored in school by a person interested in them and their studies to that end--even if they were of a different religion, than a person who mentored them and helped them in their studies with the real end being "I want this person to convert."

 

And if one is unable to divorce the two, and their friendship and interest in me has an end goal other than friendship, I want nothing to do with it. I'm beyond playing games now.

[Pretty in Pink]

As far as I know, YL does not send volunteers in disguised as tutors. YL only goes into schools that are willing to let them in and as far as I know, they don't "sneak in" disguised as tutors. The schools are well-aware of what they do and what the focus is.

 

Are the parents made aware of the fact that YL will be present on campus, and of their motivations?

 

I honestly do not understand how this is even legal. The ultimate objective of the group is to evangelize. Since they cannot openly prostelytize to students on campus they circumvent the law by gaining campus access under the guise of tutoring students. Do they offer tutoring services? Yes. Yet their ultimate goal is to invite students off-campus to be evangelized.

 

The words shady, sneaky, and deceptive come to mind.

 

How would American's react if a group of Muslim's attempted to get away with this?

[freethinkermama]

 

How would American's react if a group of Muslim's attempted to get away with this?

:iagree:

[Pretty in Pink]

Maybe I'm different here, but even as a Christian I'd have rather had my child mentored in school by a person interested in them and their studies to that end--even if they were of a different religion, than a person who mentored them and helped them in their studies with the real end being "I want this person to convert."

 

And if one is unable to divorce the two, and their friendship and interest in me has an end goal other than friendship, I want nothing to do with it. I'm beyond playing games now.

 

:iagree:

[HRAAB]

As far as I know, YL does not send volunteers in disguised as tutors. YL only goes into schools that are willing to let them in and as far as I know, they don't "sneak in" disguised as tutors. The schools are well-aware of what they do and what the focus is.

 

There are different YL groups as well - middle school, special needs, high school, teen mothers, college students, etc.

 

It *is* a ministry, but lots of groups of various beliefs and non-beliefs work with teens.

 

It was the OP that said they volunteer, often as tutors and coaches, in order to get to know the students. It's great to work with students, when your entire purpose is to help the student improve their math grade or reading fluency. It's not great if you're using that route as a means to evangelization - especially on school grounds. If they want to offer tutoring services as Young Life - a Christian outreach program - off school premises, that's totally different.

[lionfamily1999]

Young Life is very active around our area. Young adults (usually in their 20s, it seems) get involved volunteering in public high schools (often coaching or tutoring) in order to get to know the students. They then invite students to "club" meetings in order to introduce them to Christianity.

 

What do you think about this approach?

It sounds like most other missions. Christians serving God by serving people. I'm a leader for our AWANAs group at church and this sounds pretty similar. Do you have a site link?

[freethinkermama]

It was the OP that said they volunteer, often as tutors and coaches, in order to get to know the students. It's great to work with students, when your entire purpose is to help the student improve their math grade or reading fluency. It's not great if you're using that route as a means to evangelization - especially on school grounds. If they want to offer tutoring services as Young Life - a Christian outreach program - off school premises, that's totally different.

 

You bet!

[Renee in NC]

I still haven't found anything where it says that YL leaders volunteer as tutors or coaches as part of their YL work. That may be a geographical thing or just simply a change from the past.

 

However, after doing a little research, it seems that things have changed somewhat (theologically) and I am going to talk to my brother. I am curious to get his take on it.

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

Can someone clarify one detail for me? These YL adults - are they establishing relationships with teenagers of their own gender or is there cross-gender tutoring/mentoring/relationship building going on? Just curious. I've never heard of YL before.

[lionfamily1999]

I still haven't found anything where it says that YL leaders volunteer as tutors or coaches as part of their YL work. That may be a geographical thing or just simply a change from the past.

 

However, after doing a little research, it seems that things have changed somewhat (theologically) and I am going to talk to my brother. I am curious to get his take on it.

We use the talents God gave us to further His kingdom. I really don't see why a person who is gifting with teaching or coaching ability would be wrong for volunteering at public schools. Yes, they want to see people trust in Christ, but they're using their talents to benefit the community.

[SailorMom]

:iagree:

How would Christian parents feel about atheist/secular humanist folks doing something similar - volunteer for the hidden purpose of cultivating relationships with kids, and then inviting kids to events specifically promoting or teaching secular humanism ? Would this go over well ? Or what if it's a new age type "consciousness raising" group ? Would Christian parents appreciate volunteers at school who are really only there to promote such a group ? Probably not.

.

 

Yeah - I can tell you that as a deist, Young Life trying to get at my kids this way would seriously anger me. Also - I know from experience that even though I have no intention or interest in "converting" anyone - or even discussing religion ever, many Christian parents do not want their kids around me......

[freethinkermama]

We use the talents God gave us to further His kingdom. I really don't see why a person who is gifting with teaching or coaching ability would be wrong for volunteering at public schools. Yes, they want to see people trust in Christ, but they're using their talents to benefit the community.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't recall anyone saying that a person who is gifted in teaching or coaching shouldn't volunteer. Or that a Christian with these talents shouldn't volunteer. Doing it through an organization whose end goal is conversion is the problem.

 

Again, if it were a non-Christian group coming into schools to volunteer, but the unspoken goal of the group was conversing children to another religion, would you have a problem with that? If so, you can understand my objection.

[DawnM]

I have no problem with it if they are upfront about it.....I just don't like sneaky tactics.....if they say, "Please visit our Christian club where we do X" it is fine.

 

Dawn

[alpidarkomama]

I read a very unsettling article years ago about "guerilla missionaries" - the general idea was that Christian missionaries went into Muslim countries, mixed with the community, going through the physical motions that accompany Muslim prayer, then telling people they were "Jesus Muslims", and working at converting people.

 

Going into schools claiming to be a tutor when you are actually a missionary is only slightly less distasteful.

 

As others have pointed out, if you are honest with yourself you have to reverse the situation: what if this scenario involved a religion or philosophy with which you were not comfortable?

 

They use the same tactic on Jews, to destroy Jewish neshamas (souls). Horrific. At least Hitler only wanted our bodies.

[Renee in NC]

We use the talents God gave us to further His kingdom. I really don't see why a person who is gifting with teaching or coaching ability would be wrong for volunteering at public schools. Yes, they want to see people trust in Christ, but they're using their talents to benefit the community.

 

You misunderstand - I don't have a problem with Christians coaching or tutoring in the schools at all. I was more thinking along the lines of the "guerilla missionaries" mentioned previously in the thread. I just always thought that YL was pretty otransparent about what they were doing, not sneaking in under some other guise.

[Carrie12345]

We use the talents God gave us to further His kingdom. I really don't see why a person who is gifting with teaching or coaching ability would be wrong for volunteering at public schools. Yes, they want to see people trust in Christ, but they're using their talents to benefit the community.

 

I used to be a Girl Scout leader before I had kids. I happen to be an atheist. I chose to be a leader because of my love for the organization (at the time), and my belief in community service.

 

But what if I had chosen to do so with an additional desire - the desire to befriend those children in hopes that they would come hang out with me later, under non-GS circumstances, where I could be free to talk to them about the real origins of the universe and expose religious myths?

[octobob]

These sort of things seem inherently deceptive to me. It's like running a business where the product you're pushing is religion, you know, free samples at the supermarket counter sort of stuff. I feel that every public school should be entirely separate from any religious agenda, leaving what indoctrinating there is to be done to the parents. That's just me though.

[LidiyaDawn]

I used to be a Girl Scout leader before I had kids. I happen to be an atheist. I chose to be a leader because of my love for the organization (at the time), and my belief in community service.

 

But what if I had chosen to do so with an additional desire - the desire to befriend those children in hopes that they would come hang out with me later, under non-GS circumstances, where I could be free to talk to them about the real origins of the universe and expose religious myths?

 

People keep tossing that in - what if it were a Muslim? what if it were an Atheist? what if it were [whatever]

 

I would never tell someone that they weren't allowed to try and sway us to "their side"...

 

they can try.

 

...It won't work, but they can try. :p

[Murphy101]

People keep tossing that in - what if it were a Muslim? what if it were an Atheist? what if it were [whatever]

 

I would never tell someone that they weren't allowed to try and sway us to "their side"...

 

they can try.

 

...It won't work, but they can try. :p

 

Sure I don't care about adult conversation in a nonprofessional setting. I might even enjoy it and find it interesting.

 

I do get ticked if I need a service, especially if it is paid for either directly by me or my taxes, and they aren't professional enough to keep their private life/opinions to themselves. If I want to know - I will ask.

 

I do get ticked if my KID needs a tutor and the ADULT tutor uses that need as an opportunity to push their personal opinion/religion/agenda. (ETA: i phrase it this way bc to me this is not a religion issue. I'd feel the same way over many other things.) It is unprofessional and misleading to parents and the kid is a captive audience bc they need the tutoring.

 

Personally, I think it sets a terrible image of Christians as being incapable of just doing their job with integrity and letting their life speak for itself.

Edited February 11, 2011 by Martha

[staceyobu]

 

How would American's react if a group of Muslim's attempted to get away with this?

 

Muslims do this as well.

[simka2]

I don't recall anyone saying that a person who is gifted in teaching or coaching shouldn't volunteer. Or that a Christian with these talents shouldn't volunteer. Doing it through an organization whose end goal is conversion is the problem.

 

Again, if it were a non-Christian group coming into schools to volunteer, but the unspoken goal of the group was conversing children to another religion, would you have a problem with that? If so, you can understand my objection.

 

Very liberal Christian speaking here :D. I wouldn't have a problem with ANY group doing this. I have a choice in letting my kids get tutoring or letting them go to any afterschool activities. If it were a Muslim, or Hindu, or Wiccan...I would not have issues.

 

If the kids are getting good tutoring...YEAH!!! I don't see any difference between this and the young people who go overseas to teach English, because of a religious motivation.

[Barry Goldwater]

If the kids are getting good tutoring...YEAH!!! I don't see any difference between this and the young people who go overseas to teach English, because of a religious motivation.

 

:iagree: At least SOMEBODY'S teaching them to read and do math...

[freethinkermama]

People keep tossing that in - what if it were a Muslim? what if it were an Atheist? what if it were [whatever]

 

I would never tell someone that they weren't allowed to try and sway us to "their side"...

 

they can try.

 

...It won't work, but they can try. :p

 

Well, I don't care to have it done, thank you. And certainly not by using the channel of the public school.

 

Take heed, lest you fall.

[freethinkermama]

Very liberal Christian speaking here :D. I wouldn't have a problem with ANY group doing this. I have a choice in letting my kids get tutoring or letting them go to any afterschool activities. If it were a Muslim, or Hindu, or Wiccan...I would not have issues.

 

 

If the kids are getting good tutoring...YEAH!!! I don't see any difference between this and the young people who go overseas to teach English, because of a religious motivation.

 

You really wouldn't have any trouble with someone mentoring your children with the goal of converting them? Fascinating!

Edited February 11, 2011 by freethinkermama

[freethinkermama]

Muslims do this as well.

 

Examples?

 

And do you think this is ok? Do you want your children being influenced in this way? If so, and you're willing to allow every religion to come into schools under the guise of "tutoring" and "volunteering" but with the goal of conversion. If so, that's consistent at least.

 

I don't want any sneaking religion smuggled into the schools by people with ulterior motives.

[HRAAB]

My concern with this tactic - if the OP's information was correct - was that it was happening on public school property. If Young Life or whatever is advertising tutoring services (along with Christian evangelilzation) outside of public school, fine. It's that this is supposedly happening in public schools that I find troublesome. It would be the same for any religious organization coming onto school property with their main motive being conversion. That isn't right - not on public school property.

[lmrich]

Very liberal Christian speaking here :D. I wouldn't have a problem with ANY group doing this. I have a choice in letting my kids get tutoring or letting them go to any afterschool activities. If it were a Muslim, or Hindu, or Wiccan...I would not have issues.

 

If the kids are getting good tutoring...YEAH!!! I don't see any difference between this and the young people who go overseas to teach English, because of a religious motivation.

 

 

Your kids and you as parents have to make choices....This is not mandatory, this is afterschool, this is extra. If you don't like it, don't do it. YL provided an alternative Friday night party after the football game, where there would be no drinking, no sex, no drugs.They provided the chaperones and games; we paid for the pizza and soft drinks. Everybody knew they were a Christian group, but no one cared because they provided clean fun for teens. Again, if you don't want your kid to go, don't send them.

[freethinkermama]

Your kids and you as parents have to make choices....This is not mandatory, this is afterschool, this is extra. If you don't like it, don't do it. YL provided an alternative Friday night party after the football game, where there would be no drinking, no sex, no drugs.They provided the chaperones and games; we paid for the pizza and soft drinks. Everybody knew they were a Christian group, but no one cared because they provided clean fun for teens. Again, if you don't want your kid to go, don't send them.

 

That's a wonderful thing for them to do! An after-school, night-time party alternative is great. It's not on school grounds and sponsored by the school.

[msjones]

OP here. I don't know if anyone is still reading this thread, but I've been thinking about it, and hoping I hadn't misrepresented the way YL works. I posted the question because my former YL-involved friends didn't want to discuss it with me.

 

I did look for some info about how/if the YL 'official' approach is to work in schools as coaches / tutors. I found this:

 

Contact work – Any instance where Young Life leaders spend time with teenagers in an informal setting is known as "contact work". Examples of contact work encouraged by Young Life staff include attending school sporting events, talking to students after school, and hanging out with teenagers during or after their school hours. Contact work is the foundation for the ministry of Young Life.

 

Now, this was on Wikipedia, so take that into consideration. I wasn't able to find the same info on YL's website. But it seems to be consistent with what I've heard. There is nothing specific about tutoring or coaching, so maybe I was misrepresenting their methods.

 

I am all for YL clubs, camps, etc. I know that they often serve large communities of kids in many ways. I do believe that they are very careful about parent permission and YL worker screening. I know that most YL events take place in private homes and never on public school campuses.

 

My husband would not be a Christian had it not been for YL. I've attended their enormous fundraising events. I assume my boys will be involved at some point.

 

But I am still concerned about their approach at public schools. I guess the bottom line for me is that I'd like for them to be completely transparent about what they do.

[laundrycrisis]

People keep tossing that in - what if it were a Muslim? what if it were an Atheist? what if it were [whatever]

 

I would never tell someone that they weren't allowed to try and sway us to "their side"...

 

they can try.

 

...It won't work, but they can try. :p

 

These are kids. Other people's kids.

 

It's one thing if the person or group attempting the swaying is doing so openly, and addressing adults. Quite another when there is a stealth-mode setup, and it's an adult attempting to sway someone else's kid.

 

Very liberal Christian speaking here :D. I wouldn't have a problem with ANY group doing this. I have a choice in letting my kids get tutoring or letting them go to any afterschool activities. If it were a Muslim, or Hindu, or Wiccan...I would not have issues.

 

If the kids are getting good tutoring...YEAH!!! I don't see any difference between this and the young people who go overseas to teach English, because of a religious motivation.

 

I would not have a problem with any group doing it if they were completely open about their group affiliation, that their group believes in offering tutoring as a community service, and the tutoring is kept separate from any promotion of religious ideas. Then if the student or the parents aren't comfortable with the group the tutor is affiliated with, they can ask for a different tutor etc. I only have a problem with the stealth operation.

 

I guess the bottom line for me is that I'd like for them to be completely transparent about what they do.

 

:iagree: Exactly ! Transparency is key.

Edited February 11, 2011 by laundrycrisis

[Murphy101]

I don't know if I agree about the tutoring. Is there alternative tutoring available? If not and a kid needs help in math, are they stuck dealing with this volunteer who can't just teach the subject and go home? How much time that is supposed to be tutoring actually being used for tutoring vs "hey we are having an awesome party Friday night..." type conversation?

 

I'd feel the same if a tutor found out my kid comes from a large family and expounds on how well they do know they don't have to have lots of kids too right, how they can have safe sex or use birth control? No, I'm not overwhelmingly concerned about my kid doing that. But I don't appreciate ANY adult in a school or paid setting taking it upon themselves to undermine or critique my parenting, no thanks very much.

 

So flyer in school bulletin or newspaper saying there is a social function? Fine.

 

Wasting professional time that is supposed to be dedicated to a particular goal, such as tutoring math to invite and espouse an outside event/agenda! Mo thanks.

[Gooblink]

What is offensive is that there is a power differential, even between missionary and potential convert. With JUST GIVING there is no hope, no expectation of conversion, it is simply a true act of giving, but when the giver gives IN HOPE OF RETURN. (conversion, church visit,etc.) it is NOT all that altruistic, after all, there are strings attached.

 

There should be NO strings attached to giving. If there ARE, it becomes a transaction.

 

It does grieve me that evangelical groups have turned the gospel into a numbers game. I don't understand why people would feel a personal responsibility to convert others, but I know many do.

 

In all my years as an atheist, all the Billy Graham sermons or Bible tracts in the world wouldn't sway me. It was living among people who lived selflessly and joyfully, and envying what they had, that did it - and not overnight. :)

[Cindy in C-ville]

I guess the bottom line for me is that I'd like for them to be completely transparent about what they do.

 

As a former YL Leader married to another former YL Leader and the parents of teens and tweens who have been and are involved in both YL and Wyldlife ... I've found YL to be nothing but transparent.

[Amy in TX]

Muslims do this as well.

 

 

Go into public schools as volunteer tutors with the aim of converting minors? Please specify where and when this has been done.

 

I'm Muslim and I've never heard of anyone doing this--I'd be horrified if I did.

[lionfamily1999]

I don't recall anyone saying that a person who is gifted in teaching or coaching shouldn't volunteer. Or that a Christian with these talents shouldn't volunteer. Doing it through an organization whose end goal is conversion is the problem.

 

Again, if it were a non-Christian group coming into schools to volunteer, but the unspoken goal of the group was conversing children to another religion, would you have a problem with that? If so, you can understand my objection.

I watched a video about a Muslim group in Mass that had done something similar. They had ps field trips to their mosque under the guise of teaching the children about the building design. Instead, they did a sermon (or whatever you would call it) about Allah being the one true God and then had the boys participate in mid-morning prayers. That ticked me off.

 

The idea of a Muslim trying to help my child, be it with a sport or subject, while hoping to get an opening to discuss God and eternity does not concern me. It would mean they care about my child. The idea of an athiest biding their time until they get an opening to try and remove the 'religious blinders' from my childrens' eyes, while teaching them a new skill or helping them through a difficult school subject doesn't bother me either (as long as it's not science :lol:).

 

There's a difference, imo, between pretending to do something (like teach children about the architecture of a building) and instead force them into taking part in religious activities; and actually doing what you are supposed to be doing, like coaching or tutoring, while hoping to find an opening. In my opinion, it's not deception as long as they are doing what they are supposed to be doing.

You misunderstand - I don't have a problem with Christians coaching or tutoring in the schools at all. I was more thinking along the lines of the "guerilla missionaries" mentioned previously in the thread. I just always thought that YL was pretty otransparent about what they were doing, not sneaking in under some other guise.

I didn't mean to disagree with you. I was trying to expound upon what you'd said.

 

What bothers me about these accusations of deception is that it seems there is an assumption that the services offered (ie coaching or tutoring) are not being rendered. I worked with a UPS driver that was a JW. He saw his job as a GREAT opportunity to further God's kingdom. It didn't take away from his abilities as a driver. RATHER, his abilities as a driver gave him opportunities to serve God and speak to others. He wasn't pounding on every door and demanding people's attention. He did his job WELL and people LIKED him for it. That (and God, of course) gave him all the openings he needed. People saw him for the genuine good person he was and friendships developed, as they do when we interract with worthwhile people. It wasn't that he was being deceptive and pretending to deliver packages, it was that he was GENUINE and worked honestly and hard.

I used to be a Girl Scout leader before I had kids. I happen to be an atheist. I chose to be a leader because of my love for the organization (at the time), and my belief in community service.

 

But what if I had chosen to do so with an additional desire - the desire to befriend those children in hopes that they would come hang out with me later, under non-GS circumstances, where I could be free to talk to them about the real origins of the universe and expose religious myths?

One difference I see between a Muslim or Christian attempting to convert and an athiest is that there are eternal implications for the former and none for the latter. While it would be well within your rights to try and convert others to your way of thinking, I would have to wonder why you want to undermind the religious teachings of their parents when the only thing at stake is a belief that you don't hold to. That is to say, a Christian or a Muslim is concerned about eternal hell, a person missing the opportunity to walk with God for ever, I can understand their desire better than I could an athiest's.

 

 

Sure I don't care about adult conversation in a nonprofessional setting. I might even enjoy it and find it interesting.

 

I do get ticked if I need a service, especially if it is paid for either directly by me or my taxes, and they aren't professional enough to keep their private life/opinions to themselves. If I want to know - I will ask.

 

I do get ticked if my KID needs a tutor and the ADULT tutor uses that need as an opportunity to push their personal opinion/religion/agenda. (ETA: i phrase it this way bc to me this is not a religion issue. I'd feel the same way over many other things.) It is unprofessional and misleading to parents and the kid is a captive audience bc they need the tutoring.

 

Personally, I think it sets a terrible image of Christians as being incapable of just doing their job with integrity and letting their life speak for itself.

I'm not sure that this group (I still haven't found their site) is really not doing the service they've signed up for. It sounds to me that their goal is to get people to ask. IOW, to live their life in such a way that someone would want to know what they have...

OP here. I don't know if anyone is still reading this thread, but I've been thinking about it, and hoping I hadn't misrepresented the way YL works. I posted the question because my former YL-involved friends didn't want to discuss it with me.

 

I did look for some info about how/if the YL 'official' approach is to work in schools as coaches / tutors. I found this:

 

Contact work – Any instance where Young Life leaders spend time with teenagers in an informal setting is known as "contact work". Examples of contact work encouraged by Young Life staff include attending school sporting events, talking to students after school, and hanging out with teenagers during or after their school hours. Contact work is the foundation for the ministry of Young Life.

 

Now, this was on Wikipedia, so take that into consideration. I wasn't able to find the same info on YL's website. But it seems to be consistent with what I've heard. There is nothing specific about tutoring or coaching, so maybe I was misrepresenting their methods.

 

I am all for YL clubs, camps, etc. I know that they often serve large communities of kids in many ways. I do believe that they are very careful about parent permission and YL worker screening. I know that most YL events take place in private homes and never on public school campuses.

 

My husband would not be a Christian had it not been for YL. I've attended their enormous fundraising events. I assume my boys will be involved at some point.

 

But I am still concerned about their approach at public schools. I guess the bottom line for me is that I'd like for them to be completely transparent about what they do.

What bothers you about their ps approach?

[freethinkermama]

I watched a video about a Muslim group in Mass that had done something similar. They had ps field trips to their mosque under the guise of teaching the children about the building design. Instead, they did a sermon (or whatever you would call it) about Allah being the one true God and then had the boys participate in mid-morning prayers. That ticked me off.

 

The idea of a Muslim trying to help my child, be it with a sport or subject, while hoping to get an opening to discuss God and eternity does not concern me. It would mean they care about my child. The idea of an athiest biding their time until they get an opening to try and remove the 'religious blinders' from my childrens' eyes, while teaching them a new skill or helping them through a difficult school subject doesn't bother me either (as long as it's not science :lol:).

 

There's a difference, imo, between pretending to do something (like teach children about the architecture of a building) and instead force them into taking part in religious activities; and actually doing what you are supposed to be doing, like coaching or tutoring, while hoping to find an opening. In my opinion, it's not deception as long as they are doing what they are supposed to be doing.

 

I didn't mean to disagree with you. I was trying to expound upon what you'd said.

 

What bothers me about these accusations of deception is that it seems there is an assumption that the services offered (ie coaching or tutoring) are not being rendered. I worked with a UPS driver that was a JW. He saw his job as a GREAT opportunity to further God's kingdom. It didn't take away from his abilities as a driver. RATHER, his abilities as a driver gave him opportunities to serve God and speak to others. He wasn't pounding on every door and demanding people's attention. He did his job WELL and people LIKED him for it. That (and God, of course) gave him all the openings he needed. People saw him for the genuine good person he was and friendships developed, as they do when we interract with worthwhile people. It wasn't that he was being deceptive and pretending to deliver packages, it was that he was GENUINE and worked honestly and hard.

 

One difference I see between a Muslim or Christian attempting to convert and an athiest is that there are eternal implications for the former and none for the latter. While it would be well within your rights to try and convert others to your way of thinking, I would have to wonder why you want to undermind the religious teachings of their parents when the only thing at stake is a belief that you don't hold to. That is to say, a Christian or a Muslim is concerned about eternal hell, a person missing the opportunity to walk with God for ever, I can understand their desire better than I could an athiest's.

 

 

 

I'm not sure that this group (I still haven't found their site) is really not doing the service they've signed up for. It sounds to me that their goal is to get people to ask. IOW, to live their life in such a way that someone would want to know what they have...

 

What bothers you about their ps approach?

 

 

I'd like to see that video. Can you link, please?

 

As to "eternal implications" you're right, we certainly disagree. You think we have an eternity and that what we do here impacts that. I don't think we have an eternity, and I believe that these days, months, years here are the important things. I think all of the time I spent praying, converting, studying and discipling others were wasted. I wish I could have them all back and spend time investing in the present and in reality.

 

It would have been a mercy if someone would have been able to reason me out of my faith (not that reason would have done it). Much in the same way, I spent years "ministering" to people and trying to show them Jesus.

 

So, the point is, some atheists do believe we have something to offer. Namely, freedom from religious superstition and oppression. Freedom from beliefs that have been used to support unspeakable evils since the beginning of human understanding and are still used today to dehumanize so many people. If you can't understand that. . . well, what can ya do?

 

Edited to add: Finally, I think there would be many, many good things that would be left. . and grow. . . if there were no more religion (including Christianity). Many, many reasons why it might be good for the world for people to give up their supernatural beliefs. I won't go into those here, but when you said you couldn't imagine why anyone would want to convince someone away from their deity--well, I'm sure there are many of us here who can!

Edited February 11, 2011 by freethinkermama
one final thought :)

[Amy in TX]

I watched a video about a Muslim group in Mass that had done something similar. They had ps field trips to their mosque under the guise of teaching the children about the building design. Instead, they did a sermon (or whatever you would call it) about Allah being the one true God and then had the boys participate in mid-morning prayers. That ticked me off.

 

Yes, do please link to this video.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I watched a video about a Muslim group in Mass that had done something similar. They had ps field trips to their mosque under the guise of teaching the children about the building design. Instead, they did a sermon (or whatever you would call it) about Allah being the one true God and then had the boys participate in mid-morning prayers. That ticked me off.

 

The idea of a Muslim trying to help my child, be it with a sport or subject, while hoping to get an opening to discuss God and eternity does not concern me. It would mean they care about my child. The idea of an athiest biding their time until they get an opening to try and remove the 'religious blinders' from my childrens' eyes, while teaching them a new skill or helping them through a difficult school subject doesn't bother me either (as long as it's not science :lol:).

 

There's a difference, imo, between pretending to do something (like teach children about the architecture of a building) and instead force them into taking part in religious activities; and actually doing what you are supposed to be doing, like coaching or tutoring, while hoping to find an opening. In my opinion, it's not deception as long as they are doing what they are supposed to be doing.

 

I didn't mean to disagree with you. I was trying to expound upon what you'd said.

 

What bothers me about these accusations of deception is that it seems there is an assumption that the services offered (ie coaching or tutoring) are not being rendered. I worked with a UPS driver that was a JW. He saw his job as a GREAT opportunity to further God's kingdom. It didn't take away from his abilities as a driver. RATHER, his abilities as a driver gave him opportunities to serve God and speak to others. He wasn't pounding on every door and demanding people's attention. He did his job WELL and people LIKED him for it. That (and God, of course) gave him all the openings he needed. People saw him for the genuine good person he was and friendships developed, as they do when we interract with worthwhile people. It wasn't that he was being deceptive and pretending to deliver packages, it was that he was GENUINE and worked honestly and hard.

 

One difference I see between a Muslim or Christian attempting to convert and an athiest is that there are eternal implications for the former and none for the latter. While it would be well within your rights to try and convert others to your way of thinking, I would have to wonder why you want to undermind the religious teachings of their parents when the only thing at stake is a belief that you don't hold to. That is to say, a Christian or a Muslim is concerned about eternal hell, a person missing the opportunity to walk with God for ever, I can understand their desire better than I could an athiest's.

 

 

 

I'm not sure that this group (I still haven't found their site) is really not doing the service they've signed up for. It sounds to me that their goal is to get people to ask. IOW, to live their life in such a way that someone would want to know what they have...

 

What bothers you about their ps approach?

 

 

I'm shocked at the people who are NOT bothered by this approach. Whether or no they actually tutor kids or help with coaching is a moot point. The fact is that they are CREATING RELATIONSHIPS WITH KIDS JUST TO CONVERT THEM TO A DIFFERENT RELIGION!!! (or to religion at all)

 

How could people NOT have a problem with that?! It is NOT the place of these YL people! It is so arrogant and presumptious to think that "everybody MUST believe like me so I shall go forth into all the schools and convert them"! :glare:

 

And, yes it IS SUPREMELY creepy that people would hang around at schools, practices, etc just to befriend kids who are strangers to them. That's what pedophiles do!! Some of their tactics are JUST LIKE the tactics that pedophiles use to groom their victims.

 

Sick, sick, sick!

 

Would so many homeschooling moms think it as okay if some kindly neighbor wanted to help their kids learn to play a sport, tutor them, etc just so they could talk to them about how wrong homeschooling is? Is that okay, too, if they are really convinced of homeschooling's wrongness?

 

Where is that line drawn where one person thinks it's okay to try to coerce the younger generation to the "right" way of thinking? :confused:

[freethinkermama]

I'm shocked at the people who are NOT bothered by this approach. Whether or no they actually tutor kids or help with coaching is a moot point. The fact is that they are CREATING RELATIONSHIPS WITH KIDS JUST TO CONVERT THEM TO A DIFFERENT RELIGION!!! (or to religion at all)

 

How could people NOT have a problem with that?!

:iagree:

[lionfamily1999]

I'd like to see that video. Can you link, please?

 

As to "eternal implications" you're right, we certainly disagree. You think we have an eternity and that what we do here impacts that. I don't think we have an eternity, and I believe that these days, months, years here are the important things. I think all of the time I spent praying, converting, studying and discipling others were wasted. I wish I could have them all back and spend time investing in the present and in reality.

Ah, I see. I've never really thought of this from an athiestic standpoint as being a waste of time.

It would have been a mercy if someone would have been able to reason me out of my faith (not that reason would have done it). Much in the same way, I spent years "ministering" to people and trying to show them Jesus.

 

So, the point is, some atheists do believe we have something to offer. Namely, freedom from religious superstition and oppression. Freedom from beliefs that have been used to support unspeakable evils since the beginning of human understanding and are still used today to dehumanize so many people. If you can't understand that. . . well, what can ya do?

I see, again. I've never been an athiest so the pov is 'new' to me.

Edited to add: Finally, I think there would be many, many good things that would be left. . and grow. . . if there were no more religion (including Christianity). Many, many reasons why it might be good for the world for people to give up their supernatural beliefs. I won't go into those here, but when you said you couldn't imagine why anyone would want to convince someone away from their deity--well, I'm sure there are many of us here who can!

It seems to me, then, that you understand why there would be a percieved need to share 'the truth' as that person understands it. You to save someone from their supernatural beliefs, Christians/Muslims to save someone from their disbelief.

 

 

This is the video I saw the first time around. It is definitely tilted, but the video clips (imo) say a bit. Please note, I know that people would disagree vehemently with how Islam is portrayed. I just wanted to be 'honest' in posting the video of which I was speaking, I found a few more sources for those that wouldn't want to see an overtly tilted pov:

http://www.necn.com/09/16/10/Mosque-field-trip-controversy/landing.html?blockID=312554&feedID=4206

 

http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/12002241117692/wellesley-students-visit-mosque-on-class-trip/

 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/17/school-apologizes-students-pray-allah-field-trip-mosque/

[lionfamily1999]

I'm shocked at the people who are NOT bothered by this approach. Whether or no they actually tutor kids or help with coaching is a moot point. The fact is that they are CREATING RELATIONSHIPS WITH KIDS JUST TO CONVERT THEM TO A DIFFERENT RELIGION!!! (or to religion at all)

Here's the thing, though. It's not "just to convert them." Service is something that all Christians agree is important (even though we disagree on it's eternal implications). It's service. It's serving God, by serving others. It's loving God by loving His creation. People do things, join things, ALL THE TIME with some other goal in mind. Better college transcripts, meeting new people, &tc.

How could people NOT have a problem with that?! It is NOT the place of these YL people! It is so arrogant and presumptious to think that "everybody MUST believe like me so I shall go forth into all the schools and convert them"! :glare:

Because, they have a talent or a gift and they're using it to better the people around them.

And, yes it IS SUPREMELY creepy that people would hang around at schools, practices, etc just to befriend kids who are strangers to them. That's what pedophiles do!! Some of their tactics are JUST LIKE the tactics that pedophiles use to groom their victims.

What about teachers that become teachers so they can "mold young minds?"

Sick, sick, sick!

 

Would so many homeschooling moms think it as okay if some kindly neighbor wanted to help their kids learn to play a sport, tutor them, etc just so they could talk to them about how wrong homeschooling is? Is that okay, too, if they are really convinced of homeschooling's wrongness?

I think most of us have run into 'helpful' people that bashed hsing. What did we do? Some brushed it off, some stomped off, some wrote letters and filed complaints. The same can be done there. If dd's youth group leader started preaching against hsing, I'd have a few choice words for him. It's not like she's being held captive and he's not being held to any standards. If a tutor is teaching their pupils "Jesus love me" instead of math, then I'm guessing their parents and the school aren't going to leave them in that position.

Where is that line drawn where one person thinks it's okay to try to coerce the younger generation to the "right" way of thinking? :confused:

:LOL: Apparently it's drawn when a couple gets divorced and the Mom is more religious than the judge. Then the judge gets to send her child off to be 'coerced' by the ps system.

[HRAAB]

I watched a video about a Muslim group in Mass that had done something similar. They had ps field trips to their mosque under the guise of teaching the children about the building design. Instead, they did a sermon (or whatever you would call it) about Allah being the one true God and then had the boys participate in mid-morning prayers. That ticked me off.

 

The idea of a Muslim trying to help my child, be it with a sport or subject, while hoping to get an opening to discuss God and eternity does not concern me. It would mean they care about my child. The idea of an athiest biding their time until they get an opening to try and remove the 'religious blinders' from my childrens' eyes, while teaching them a new skill or helping them through a difficult school subject doesn't bother me either (as long as it's not science :lol:).

 

There's a difference, imo, between pretending to do something (like teach children about the architecture of a building) and instead force them into taking part in religious activities; and actually doing what you are supposed to be doing, like coaching or tutoring, while hoping to find an opening. In my opinion, it's not deception as long as they are doing what they are supposed to be doing.

 

I didn't mean to disagree with you. I was trying to expound upon what you'd said.

 

What bothers me about these accusations of deception is that it seems there is an assumption that the services offered (ie coaching or tutoring) are not being rendered. I worked with a UPS driver that was a JW. He saw his job as a GREAT opportunity to further God's kingdom. It didn't take away from his abilities as a driver. RATHER, his abilities as a driver gave him opportunities to serve God and speak to others. He wasn't pounding on every door and demanding people's attention. He did his job WELL and people LIKED him for it. That (and God, of course) gave him all the openings he needed. People saw him for the genuine good person he was and friendships developed, as they do when we interract with worthwhile people. It wasn't that he was being deceptive and pretending to deliver packages, it was that he was GENUINE and worked honestly and hard.

 

One difference I see between a Muslim or Christian attempting to convert and an athiest is that there are eternal implications for the former and none for the latter. While it would be well within your rights to try and convert others to your way of thinking, I would have to wonder why you want to undermind the religious teachings of their parents when the only thing at stake is a belief that you don't hold to. That is to say, a Christian or a Muslim is concerned about eternal hell, a person missing the opportunity to walk with God for ever, I can understand their desire better than I could an athiest's.

 

 

 

I'm not sure that this group (I still haven't found their site) is really not doing the service they've signed up for. It sounds to me that their goal is to get people to ask. IOW, to live their life in such a way that someone would want to know what they have...

 

What bothers you about their ps approach?

 

Are you saying that you think it is appropriate for another adult, while in the course of tutoring my child (or teaching them piano or whatever), to start discussing religion with the goal of conversion, without my permission or knowledge?

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

Freedom from beliefs that have been used to support unspeakable evils since the beginning of human understanding and are still used today to dehumanize so many people. If you can't understand that. . . well, what can ya do?

 

 

 

 

Saying this doesn't make sense to me when atheistic beliefs have been used to support unspeakable evils and the dehumanization of others also.