Hyper-Inflated Grades.....(warning: ps rant)

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

I hope it is safe to rant here. I just need somewhere to voice my outrage and disgust with a local high school. I am hoping that what I'm about to describe is an anomaly.

 

I was visiting my best friend yesterday. Her oldest has always struggled in school. Every year he does the bare minimum to get by. He will flunk the first semester of a class, and get a B in the second. He fails many tests, does not hand in homework. This is is MO. His parents don't believe in any kind of carrot and stick approach. He is getting a 2009 Dodge Charger for his 16th birthday and going to Disney with his marching band, regardless of his grades...:001_huh:

 

He is in 10th grade. He took Spanish I last year and barely passed (see above). He is taking Spanish II in a block schedule (90 minutes per day, 1 semester class). The first grading period he earned an F. This final grading period he is earning a "B"!! His mom was flabbergast. She showed me his interim report card (teacher noted "WOW!"). This is the most interesting part:

 

He did not hand in and received an "F" on 25% of his homework assignments.

 

His teacher weighted quizzes at 9% and tests at only at 7%. (Of course he does well on the quizzes, but gets F's on his tests)

 

Still, somehow he's getting 80.7% (a B in our county).

 

Really? You can do 3/4 of your homework, fail tests and still come out with a B??

 

Good grief.

 

Then I see the post about rounding up grades and I say, "heck, YEAH!"

 

My own child is taking a French I at a different high school and has handed in every homework assignment and earned no less than an 84 (mostly in the mid to high 90's) on any quiz or test and he's hanging on to an A-. So I guess I am feeling prickly over this.

 

Although I'm outraged over the grade inflation, I am happy for my friend as she worries over this kid just graduating from high school. It fortunate for him that he's going to work for his daddy's business when he graduates....

 

Thanks for listening,

END OF :rant:

 

K

[Gratia271]

Wow, I thought only my homeschooling relative gave A's for that kind of performance. Your son can be proud that he has earned his grade. At least his teacher cares enough to grade his work objectively.

 

As you said, it is a good thing Daddy will be there to carry him through life... every parent's dream for their children. :glare:

[delaney]

That is not out of the ordinary in my opinion. My neighbor has a son in 5th grade and he came home with straight A's. REALLY? This child is so not a straight A student and never has been. His reading is at a low 4th grade level as well as his spelling and writing. The inconsistency in grading is so ridiculous. My two older boys hard to work really hard to get straight A's in 5th and they are both well above average in all areas. I think teachers are afraid of parent backlash when they see a child try really hard but not achieve so they bump the grades to make them feel better. Fair? No. My second oldest son is very bright and in PS for 6th grade and his history teacher gave him a B for his class, his only B on his report card, and the grade was 89.4:glare:. Will they cut the intelligent child a break? No, but the lower functioning student gets his grade padded because he struggles but his effort is there!

[Gratia271]

but the lower functioning student gets his grade padded because he struggles but his effort is there!

 

That is my relative's thinking. I cannot tell you how many times she has told me that she refuses to give her children poor grades if the effort is there. She overrides other people's grades too based on purported effort. In their case, it is manipulation. They expend minimal effort... beyond using answer keys to do work anyway.

[Tarreymere]

This is why I have a 19 year old relative who was an honor student in high school but can't pass the state written exam to get a learner's permit to drive a car.

[Gratia271]

How about a "summa cum laude" homeschool graduate who fails the SAT at 18?

[Tree Frog]

My oldest is back in ps this year after 5 yrs hsing. She's in 9th grade and works really hard on her grades and gets straight A's because of hard work.

 

I have been amazed at the amount of extra credit the teachers give the students that have nothing to do with the class's subject. For example, if the students don't use the tardy and hall passes during the quarter, they receive 1 point per pass they turn in (per class). The last few weeks, if the kids brought in canned goods or toys for the food/Christmas drive, some of the teachers were giving 20 extra credit points.

 

My daughter was told she couldn't use the EC points because the student's average for the class couldn't be above 100, but those students who don't study can benefit from them all. So my daughter, who studies hard and knows the subject material, might have the same grade as another student who relied on non-subject matter extra credit to get that grade and likely doesn't know the material. That's grade inflation. DD heard many students saying they needed only ___ score on the test to get an A because they were counting on the extra credit.

 

I understand the classroom management point of view for the hall/tardy passes and the desire to get kids involved in their community, but I believe it will backfire on the kids when they get to college and are expected to know the material.

[regentrude]

but I believe it will backfire on the kids when they get to college and are expected to know the material.

 

Oh yes! I have just given my final exams and am in the mist of dealing with students who must have gone through similar highschool experiences and are now trying to haggle for points. I am getting emails stating "I am only twenty points away from passing" (that is out of 600, i.e. a third of a letter grade), with test scores of F's and D's. But hey, it worked in highschool, so it must be the professor's fault if they are failing. Arrrgh.

Other strategies include appeals to the instructor's soft heart: "I am afraid I will get depressed if I don't get a C" or "I prayed so hard before the test". Seriously, I am not making this up.

[kiana]

Oh yes! I have just given my final exams and am in the mist of dealing with students who must have gone through similar highschool experiences and are now trying to haggle for points. I am getting emails stating "I am only twenty points away from passing" (that is out of 600, i.e. a third of a letter grade), with test scores of F's and D's. But hey, it worked in highschool, so it must be the professor's fault if they are failing. Arrrgh.

Other strategies include appeals to the instructor's soft heart: "I am afraid I will get depressed if I don't get a C" or "I prayed so hard before the test". Seriously, I am not making this up.

 

"Professor Regentrude, I know you said there isn't any extra credit, but is there any extra credit?"

 

:leaving:

[Mabelen]

My oldest is in public high school this year as a Freshman. She is academically gifted. She was previously enrolled in an academically rigorous independent school where she always got good grades, though not all As all the time.

 

She did get straight As on her first trimester this year but she had to work for them. She was actually not sure she would get an A in Geometry, despite having As in the two parts of her finals because she had done poorly in a couple of chapter tests. She managed to just get by onto an A but the transcript reads "Lower range of grade". As far as I am aware they don't get extra credit for non academic reasons.

 

I guess it really boils down to the particular district and/or school.

[regentrude]

"Professor Regentrude, I know you said there isn't any extra credit, but is there any extra credit?"

 

 

Yes, I get those, too. Usually, the students trying to get an A instead of a B are very polite. Their emails typically read "I know you said there was no extra credit, and I am aware that it might be a stretch, but I though I'd ask anyway, and I completely understand if it's not possible." I am much more sympathetic to this kind of requests -but I still say no, even if I truly feel for the student.

Sometimes it is very hard to deny their requests and I wish I could just give them the better grade because they really worked hard, were pleasant, always in class... alas that would mean overthrowing the complete grading scheme, adjusting everybody's grade (because things have to be fair), and ending up with grading according to aspects other than mastery of the subject. Professional ethics prevents me from doing this... but I end up feeling very sorry for some students, and I find it difficult every single time it happens.

[Teachin'Mine]

My dd is getting good prep for college grading, but unfortunately her GPA won't look good compared to other applicants. :confused: Top students from schools which inflate grades will probably be in the mid to upper 4s.

[teachermom2834]

Oh yes! I have just given my final exams and am in the mist of dealing with students who must have gone through similar highschool experiences and are now trying to haggle for points. I am getting emails stating "I am only twenty points away from passing" (that is out of 600, i.e. a third of a letter grade), with test scores of F's and D's. But hey, it worked in highschool, so it must be the professor's fault if they are failing. Arrrgh.

Other strategies include appeals to the instructor's soft heart: "I am afraid I will get depressed if I don't get a C" or "I prayed so hard before the test". Seriously, I am not making this up.

 

My dh teaches online classes for a community college and this is a really annoying part of it. He is bombarded by emails like those and ones that pretty much blame my dh for all kinds of bad things. "If I don't make a B I won't graduate", "I will get fired from my job if I don't make a C and I have kids to feed", "I will lose my scholarship if you don't bump my grade up", etc. It isn't just once in awhile. He gets those emails constantly. He does offer extra credit and often these students haven't taken him up on that or they think they can skip all their labs and then write a 1 page paper to make up for it. My dh is very softhearted but it is hard to feel bad for students that skip the midterm exam and then ask for extra credit. Then they blame him for starving kids !

[mcconnellboys]

Not only do many high schools participate in grade inflation, but there have been recent articles accusing even Ivy League colleges (like Harvard) of engaging in similar practices....

[JennifersLost]

Here, an 85% and up is an A - what ever happened to 90% and up? You can be in the 70s and still get a B.

 

And the kicker.....you only have to get all As and Bs to be on the honor roll!

 

I'm pretty darn sure that when I was a kid it was harder than that. Wasn't it?

[ChristyH]

Wow!! I must live in a bubble as I didn't know this stuff was happening. My BIL teaches public high school and I will ask him about this. My BIL is a big ex-marine, and he has had parents come in demand that he give their child a better grade to which he replies, no. :D If they didn't earn it he won't despense it.

[ChiMomNP]

My DH is a full-time professor and he is under extreme pressure from administration to "pass" students. If he has more than 2-3 students out of 40 fail a course, he will lose his job. He is constantly doing outreach, calling students at home, letting them re-do assignments after he walks them through each and every step. You name it, he has to do it to ensure "student success". They believe if students are failing it is the fault of the professor. My professors in my doctorate program scale grades too. I'm not surprised it is happening in high schools. Everybody wants to keep their job these days.

[Charles Wallace]

That is not out of the ordinary in my opinion. My neighbor has a son in 5th grade and he came home with straight A's. REALLY? This child is so not a straight A student and never has been. His reading is at a low 4th grade level as well as his spelling and writing. The inconsistency in grading is so ridiculous. My two older boys hard to work really hard to get straight A's in 5th and they are both well above average in all areas. I think teachers are afraid of parent backlash when they see a child try really hard but not achieve so they bump the grades to make them feel better. Fair? No. My second oldest son is very bright and in PS for 6th grade and his history teacher gave him a B for his class, his only B on his report card, and the grade was 89.4:glare:. Will they cut the intelligent child a break? No, but the lower functioning student gets his grade padded because he struggles but his effort is there!

Also...

 

1. Parents complain.

2. Administrators don't support the teacher.

3. Administrators tell the teacher to inflate grades or dumb down the curriculum or both. I personally have been ordered to do both.

4. NOT ONCE in well over a decade's worth of teaching have I ever, ever had a parent or administrator get in my face over giving a class or a child a grade of A or B. However, I have had many administrators and parents get in my face for the opposite reason.

 

For many teachers, they just. get. tired. They get tired of fighting all the time to teach a decent curriculum at an appropriate level of challenge for most students. It's just too easy to pass everyone because there is NO blowback, no consequence. In fact, there are negative consequences for doing it the "right way."

[Charles Wallace]

My DH is a full-time professor and he is under extreme pressure from administration to "pass" students. If he has more than 2-3 students out of 40 fail a course, he will lose his job. He is constantly doing outreach, calling students at home, letting them re-do assignments after he walks them through each and every step. You name it, he has to do it to ensure "student success". They believe if students are failing it is the fault of the professor. My professors in my doctorate program scale grades too. I'm not surprised it is happening in high schools. Everybody wants to keep their job these days.

 

Wow. Do your husband and I work for the same school? I'm not a professor, but just yesterday, I called every single student who hadn't turned in a major paper to me -- and I let them redo assignments and walk them through every major step. I'm okay with letting them redo essays because as an English teacher, I honestly believe in rewriting as a method of learning better, but I hate being driven to teaching decisions by fear.

[LunaLee]

This is why I have a 19 year old relative who was an honor student in high school but can't pass the state written exam to get a learner's permit to drive a car.

 

Ummm that's my daughter... I don't think one relates to other, one can do well on essays and such but still have a problem reading test questions. But that's just my personal biased opinion.

 

FWIW I do think the standards are incredibly low in the PS and was greatly dissappointed during dd's brief return there last year.

[delaney]

Also...

 

1. Parents complain.

2. Administrators don't support the teacher.

3. Administrators tell the teacher to inflate grades or dumb down the curriculum or both. I personally have been ordered to do both.

4. NOT ONCE in well over a decade's worth of teaching have I ever, ever had a parent or administrator get in my face over giving a class or a child a grade of A or B. However, I have had many administrators and parents get in my face for the opposite reason.

 

For many teachers, they just. get. tired. They get tired of fighting all the time to teach a decent curriculum at an appropriate level of challenge for most students. It's just too easy to pass everyone because there is NO blowback, no consequence. In fact, there are negative consequences for doing it the "right way."

Yes, been there and done that. One of the many reasons I left teaching. I am just now reading "The Dumbing Down" book and I really see what he is talking about. What a disservice we are doing for our kids.

[memphispeg]

I just started home schooling this year. My dd was in ps for 11 years. I am appalled at some of the behaviors she thinks she can get away with, missing or shoddily-done assignments, failure to study for tests, etc. She said that that's what she learned to do in school. (She got good grades!)

She chose home schooling because she felt that she was not getting a "real" education. It has been a long up hill battle to get rid of her "nasty" habits. We are getting better at shooting for the idea that "school is not just about grades, it is about the learning and work". It has been urgent that she learned this "yesterday" as she is a jr. I have hated having to pressure her to put her old habits behind her. I am constantly niggling with curriculum to try and avoid these issues but, do not want to dumb things down.

[Stacy in NJ]

While I'm absolutely sure that some grade inflation is happening at our local ps, I'm sure the kids and parents are aware of what is really necessary to get into a good college. Most of the parents in our area are college educated themselves. The reality is that strong SAT's (or ACT) scores along with a transcript that includes some higher level courses (AP's, honor's, or the IB) are expected and are decent barometers of future college success.

 

Parents and students that look at those inflated grades need to also have a look at an SAT prep manual to get a realistic measure of what's expected.

 

IMO, people put way too much focus on high school grades. There's a tremendous amount of forgiveness for mediocre grades as long as SAT's are strong and/or community college classes are passed with good grades. If a child gets good grades and can't pass the high school exit exam or do a decent job on the SAT, then their high school has perpetrated fraud.

 

People need to be aware of what their school and community standards actually are. I realize for parents who don't have experience with college themselves it may be really difficult to measure whether their child's high school is actually preparing them for higher education, but, besides high school grades, there are other measure's available to them. The SAT is the most obvious; community college placement tests are another.

 

In our society, to an ever growing extent, grades represent credentialing, not education. It's important to know that.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Stacy in NJ

[KatieH]

The whole mentality of "no one can fail" that's permeating our society is really appalling to me. Whatever happened to encouraging our kids to work hard? No, now if you expect your kids to work hard, you're "mean" and you're "crushing their creativity!" Who cares if their essay is illegible, misspelled, and grammatically incorrect? It's creative and that's all that matters! GAH! Teacher's in many areas won't even grade in red anymore because "it will make the kids feel bad." SO WHAT?! 3x4=12, anything else is WRONG. If you don't study and you don't put any effort in to your school work, you SHOULD feel bad if you do poorly!

 

All this coddling isn't doing kids any favors.

[Tree Frog]

In our society, to an ever growing extent, grades represent credentialing, not education. It's important to know that.

 

I've never thought of grades that way, but I think you're right. My dd's school has had NM Finalists and the students overall do well on the ACT/SAT, so even though some of the teachers are inflating the grades, some of the students do succeed in spite of it.

[Teachin'Mine]

While I'm absolutely sure that some grade inflation is happening at our local ps, I'm sure the kids and parents are aware of what is really necessary to get into a good college. Most of the parents in our area are college educated themselves. The reality is that strong SAT's (or ACT) scores along with a transcript that includes some higher level courses (AP's, honor's, or the IB) are expected and are decent barometers of future college success.

 

Parents and students that look at those inflated grades need to also have a look at an SAT prep manual to get a realistic measure of what's expected.

 

IMO, people put way to much focus on high school grades. There's a tremendous amount of forgiveness for mediocre grades as long as SAT's are strong and/or community college classes are passed with good grades. If a child gets good grades and can't pass the high school exit exam or do a decent job on the SAT, then their high school has perpetrated fraud.

 

People need to be aware of what their school and community standards actually are. I realize for parents who don't have experience with college themselves it may be really difficult to measure whether their child's high school is actually preparing them for higher education, but, besides high school grades, there are other measure's available to them. The SAT is the most obvious; community college placement tests are another.

 

In our society, to an ever growing extent, grades represent credentialing, not education. It's important to know that.

 

And I look at it differently. When I hear of a student acing the SAT's but having a low GPA, I think lazy and not working up to their potential. Years ago when grades weren't inflated, at least at my high school, if you had high grades and lower SAT, it usually meant that you just weren't a great test taker or that some ares had been missed. And the reverse meant that you were a slacker with school work.

[Halcyon]

I agree, it's appalling.

 

My cousin, who is a senior at our local high school, is on the honor roll and has a 92% average. He was helping out my husband, an art restorer, in his studio, shelving and cataloguing books. My DH was appalled to learn he has never, in his life, heard of Manet, Modigliani or Rembrandt. Not just "doesn't know much about them" but has never. heard. their. names. ever.

 

:confused:

[Stacy in NJ]

And I look at it differently. When I hear of a student acing the SAT's but having a low GPA' date=' I think lazy and not working up to their potential. [/b'] Years ago when grades weren't inflated, at least at my high school, if you had high grades and lower SAT, it usually meant that you just weren't a great test taker or that some ares had been missed. And the reverse meant that you were a slacker with school work.

 

I think the bolded part is possibly or partially true, but I wonder why the student isn't motivated to do better with their grades. While it may reflect a smart but lazy student, it may also reflect a student who is uninterested in the material studied and not likely to jump through official hoops to please others (parents or teachers), and who isn't interested in grades for the sake of grades. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, maybe even a healthy attitude.

 

Some folks are bright but not necessarily motivated by the material and the institutional structure of high school. They also may not be people pleasers. While I think self-discipline is important, sometimes we all need to just do stuff because it needs to be done, self-motiviation is equally important. Grades shouldn't be an ends in and of themselves; they're only a means to another end.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Stacy in NJ

[LunaLee]

 

People need to be aware of what their school and community standards actually are. I realize for parents who don't have experience with college themselves it may be really difficult to measure whether their child's high school is actually preparing them for higher education, but, besides high school grades, there are other measure's available to them. The SAT is the most obvious; community college placement tests are another.

 

 

 

I don't want to say most parents don't care to educate themselves, so I'll say maybe they just don't think to.

 

The local ps high school around here (as I've said in other posts) is supposed to be top notch: Distiguished School awards several years in a row, Fundamental (meaning it's supposed to be more academically rigorous), they require 50-60 additional credits than the other schools in the area and have better requirments, and their test scores overall are right up there. That all looks great on paper, and it's a given in this community that this is a fabulous school, so I think the parents are comfortable sending their kids there and not worrying about it. And it's true, the school has a great rate for getting kids into college. However, let me tell you what an average English class looks like: 2 essays, neither of them graded or given back to the student for feedback. They read one novel, Lord of the Flies, and listened to 2 others, and no homework.

 

So parents send their kids there and think they are getting a good education, and on paper they are, but not by my standards and not by most people's who know better.

 

I completly blame No Child Left Behind. I think the intention was good, but failed in execution.

[Charles Wallace]

I don't want to say most parents don't care to educate themselves, so I'll say maybe they just don't think to.

 

The local ps high school around here (as I've said in other posts) is supposed to be top notch: Distiguished School awards several years in a row, Fundamental (meaning it's supposed to be more academically rigorous), they require 50-60 additional credits than the other schools in the area and have better requirments, and their test scores overall are right up there. That all looks great on paper, and it's a given in this community that this is a fabulous school, so I think the parents are comfortable sending their kids there and not worrying about it. And it's true, the school has a great rate for getting kids into college. However, let me tell you what an average English class looks like: 2 essays, neither of them graded or given back to the student for feedback. They read one novel, Lord of the Flies, and listened to 2 others, and no homework.

 

So parents send their kids there and think they are getting a good education, and on paper they are, but not by my standards and not by most people's who know better.

 

I completly blame No Child Left Behind. I think the intention was good, but failed in execution.

 

I think the boldness illustrates a lot of the problem: too many parents want to wash their hands of their children's education or 'outsource' it to teachers without necessarily putting in the time to help their children.

 

My other concern: If this is an upper-class community, my experience suggests that too often, administrators in communities like that deal with too many parents who have a sense of entitlement. They put pressure on administrators who then put pressure on the teachers who then dumb the curriculum down to two ungraded essays and a novel. The teacher doesn't actually have to grade the essays (easier for him or her), doesn't have to do much work (again, easier for him or her), and the students, parents, and administrators are happy. It's a win-win.

 

Sort of.

 

It's definitely a win-win when you consider that ALMOST NEVER does it happen that a child takes a class for which s/he is academically unprepared (although prepared on paper) and then complains to the administrator of the previous teacher for not preparing him or her. Instead, they complain that the current teacher is "unfair" and "too hard."

[TechWife]

Wow - here an A is 93 & up.

[Tammyla]

:confused: I can't imagine the logic here, just wow. How can you get full credit when you failed hath the course?

 

I hope it is safe to rant here. I just need somewhere to voice my outrage and disgust with a local high school. I am hoping that what I'm about to describe is an anomaly.

 

I was visiting my best friend yesterday. Her oldest has always struggled in school. Every year he does the bare minimum to get by. He will flunk the first semester of a class' date=' and get a B in the second. He fails many tests, does not hand in homework. This is is MO. His parents don't believe in any kind of carrot and stick approach. He is getting a 2009 Dodge Charger for his 16th birthday and going to Disney with his marching band, regardless of his grades...:001_huh:

 

He is in 10th grade. He took Spanish I last year and barely passed (see above). He is taking Spanish II in a block schedule (90 minutes per day, 1 semester class). The first grading period he earned an F. This final grading period he is earning a "B"!! His mom was flabbergast. She showed me his interim report card (teacher noted "WOW!"). This is the most interesting part:

 

He did not hand in and received an "F" on 25% of his homework assignments.

 

His teacher weighted quizzes at 9% and tests at only at 7%. (Of course he does well on the quizzes, but gets F's on his tests)

 

Still, somehow he's getting 80.7% (a B in our county).

 

Really? You can do 3/4 of your homework, fail tests and still come out with a B??

 

Good grief.

 

Then I see the post about rounding up grades and I say, "heck, YEAH!"

 

My own child is taking a French I at a different high school and has handed in every homework assignment and earned no less than an 84 (mostly in the mid to high 90's) on any quiz or test and he's hanging on to an A-. So I guess I am feeling prickly over this.

 

Although I'm outraged over the grade inflation, I am happy for my friend as she worries over this kid just graduating from high school. It fortunate for him that he's going to work for his daddy's business when he graduates....

 

Thanks for listening,

END OF :rant:

 

K[/quote']

[elizabeth]

How about a "summa cum laude" homeschool graduate who fails the SAT at 18?

 

Oh no you didn't...:lol:

[Punchie]

I think the bolded part is possibly or partially true, but I wonder why the students isn't motivated to do better with their grades. While it may reflect a smart but lazy student, it may also reflect a student who is uninterested in the material studied and not likely to jump through official hoops to please others (parents or teachers), and who isn't interested in grades for the sake of grades. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, maybe even a healthy attitude.

 

Some folks are bright but not necessarily motivated by the material and the institutional structure of high school. They also may not be people pleasers. While I think self-discipline is important, sometimes we all need to just do stuff because it needs to be done, self-motiviation is equally important. Grades shouldn't be an ends in and of themselves; they're only a means to another end.

 

Jumping in as I don't have high school age kids. But the above is both my DH and one of my closest friends to a tee. DH is incredibly smart. He was the kid who tested out at the 97/98th percentile on standardized tests, but was pulling in C's. School wasn't worth it to him b/c no one would explain the "why" when he asked why he needed to learn XYZ. He finally figured out the "why" (on subjects like math), when we bought our first house. This motivated him to go to college for a degree in Physics, where he's received (I think) only one B. He has always read extensively (his bookshelf is what made me pursue him), so the love of learning is there. He's just a very logical guy. He has also toyed w/the idea of becoming a teacher just so he can tell students the "why" behind math/science.

 

The other person who would fit the quote above is one of my closest friends. He can't pass a college class to save his life, but if you get him going about either anthropology or martial arts, he can discuss you into the ground. He is far and away the smartest person I know. He just chafes at institutionalized learning. However, in his mid-30s, he's realized that in order to be taken seriously, he needs the "credentials" of a college degree. What's inside his head counts for naught if he doesn't have a piece of paper to back it up (even though he owns/runs a successful dojo).

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

J He is far and away the smartest person I know. He just chafes at institutionalized learning. However, in his mid-30s, he's realized that in order to be taken seriously, he needs the "credentials" of a college degree. What's inside his head counts for naught if he doesn't have a piece of paper to back it up....

 

You've described my dh to a T. Unfortunately, because he lacks the "piece of paper" he's been stuck in a semi-blue-collar jobs for 18 years. We live in an area where there are plenty of jobs for those with a piece of paper (federal government/defense contractor mecca). When he reads the job descriptions for the positions, he knows he could do them. It's just sad we didn't invest in that little piece of paper...

 

We try to drive home the importance of a college education to out children every chance we get.

[flyingiguana]

You know, the actual percentage score is really a pretty irrelevant comparison. A teacher can make a test as hard as they wish. And they may be perfectly happy with kids getting 50 percent, if the test is really hard. The grade is all in the mind of the teacher, no matter what the percentage on the test.

 

An 80 percent in one class might be a WAY better score than a 93 in another class, if the teacher is expecting more and writing harder tests.

 

How difficult a teacher makes a test probably has more to do with their theory about the psychology of teaching. One may think it's better to leave a lot of room at the top for students to strive for, while another wants their students to feel a sense of accomplishment so they'll continue to work hard -- but the vastly different percentages on tests between these two teachers might result in the same letter grade in the end. It doesn't mean one teacher is unfair or another is lenient. It certainly does NOT mean that students who had to get 93s to get A's know more than those who only had to get 80s. It's just a different way of doing things.

[delaney]

When I was growing up in Penna, our grading scale was:

93-100 = A

92-87 = B

86-80 = C

79-75 = D

below 75 = Failing

 

I left Penna and went to TX for college. It was the first time (and I was STUNNED) of hearing of the 90-80-70 grading scale. At the tender age of 18yo, I knew something was amiss. My college classmates could claim straight A's for the same scores that would have given me straight B's. And they could have claimed C's for the same work that would have earned me a failing grade.

 

Definitely not fair... and that was 20 years ago.

 

ETA: Also, when I was in high school, you had to get all A's, or all A's and *ONE* B, to make honor roll. Now, so often I hear that you just have to make A's and B's, even ALL B's, to make honor roll. Another example of how the standards have declined in the last 20 years or so.

Here in VA most schools were on that scale but recently Fairfax adopted the 10 point scale so now other districts, like ours, went the same route. They found that the colleges were not being given notice of the grading scale by the HS counselors and the kids on the 7 pt scale were not being fairly judged.

[creekland]

And the variance on here is why the SAT/ACT or AP's are so important to colleges when they are looking at prospective students. It's one way they can compare apples to apples for those where apples apply to potential future education (not so for some majors).

 

No one says it is a perfect way or a perfect predictor, but at this point, it's the best they have (then they couple it with GPA and other things or look for more info from those who might not test well in a short period of time).

 

Even in a particular school there can be a wide variance in both learning and grades. There are some teachers at the high school where I work that I simply won't let my son get. There are others I want him to have. Some teachers here were giving extra credit points for bringing in "stuff" to send to soldiers. That peeved me and I wouldn't let my son participate. It's not that sending "stuff" to soldiers is bad, but honestly, academic extra credit for it?

[cathmom]

I agree, it's appalling.

 

My cousin, who is a senior at our local high school, is on the honor roll and has a 92% average. He was helping out my husband, an art restorer, in his studio, shelving and cataloguing books. My DH was appalled to learn he has never, in his life, heard of Manet, Modigliani or Rembrandt. Not just "doesn't know much about them" but has never. heard. their. names. ever.

 

:confused:

 

I don't think I've ever heard of Modigliani.

[TXMary2]

This is not unusual in my experience. I know a high school English teacher whose job was threatened because she failed too many students. She is disgusted, but stays on the job because she is paid well.

 

My oldest who struggled with math all his life and worked his tail off at a private school to keep a B average, suddenly had an A+ in Algebra 1 at the local public high school. When we switched to homeschooling, suddenly Algebra was a foreign langauge to him.

[Michelle in MO]

And it's true, the school has a great rate for getting kids into college. However, let me tell you what an average English class looks like: 2 essays, neither of them graded or given back to the student for feedback. They read one novel, Lord of the Flies, and listened to 2 others, and no homework.

 

So parents send their kids there and think they are getting a good education, and on paper they are, but not by my standards and not by most people's who know better.

 

I completly blame No Child Left Behind. I think the intention was good, but failed in execution.

 

 

I've seen the same thing as well, and I also believe NCLB was well-intentioned but a disaster in execution. However, I graduated in the late 1970s, and I don't think standards were that high then, either; they have been slipping for years.

 

Nevertheless, when I was in high school, I remember our grading system went like this:

 

A = 94-100

B = 87-93

C = 86-80

 

and so on.

 

How about a "summa cum laude" homeschool graduate who fails the SAT at 18?

 

 

That is pretty bad. I don't know what a "failing" score on the SAT would be. I have seen what I consider to be mediocre performance amongst some fellow homeschoolers (while we were still homeschooling), but I know that colleges look at far more than grades for entrance. In our experience, scores on the SAT and ACT weighed in quite heavily, not only for entrance to the school but also for scholarship money. The parents whom I know on this forum, for example, are very well aware of this fact and work very hard to substantiate any grades which they issue on their child's transcript. If a child has all As but receives a low score on the ACT or SAT, they will most likely not be admitted into certain schools.

 

Overall, though, I agree that standards at our local p.s. are not what I would wish them to be. Certain classes are excellent; for example, the history teacher at our local p.s. is great: enthusiastic, maintains high standards, etc. The work in some other classes is minimal, in my opinion.

Edited December 22, 2010 by Michelle in MO

[distancia]

And I look at it differently. When I hear of a student acing the SAT's but having a low GPA' date=' I think lazy and not working up to their potential.[/b'] Years ago when grades weren't inflated, at least at my high school, if you had high grades and lower SAT, it usually meant that you just weren't a great test taker or that some ares had been missed. And the reverse meant that you were a slacker with school work.

 

And from Stacey in NJ, in reference to the above ^^:

I think the bolded part is possibly or partially true, but I wonder why the students isn't motivated to do better with their grades. While it may reflect a smart but lazy student, it may also reflect a student who is uninterested in the material studied and not likely to jump through official hoops to please others (parents or teachers), and who isn't interested in grades for the sake of grades. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, maybe even a healthy attitude.

 

Some folks are bright but not necessarily motivated by the material and the institutional structure of high school. They also may not be people pleasers. While I think self-discipline is important, sometimes we all need to just do stuff because it needs to be done, self-motiviation is equally important. Grades shouldn't be an ends in and of themselves; they're only a means to another end.

 

I'm with Stacey on this. My DD, now a senior, scored very highly on her SAT last year (junior) and even better on the December 4th one she just took--high enough to get her into any honors college in any of our state universities, as well as the top state tuition award. But when you look at her public school transcript--a mishmash of A and Bs, with an occasional C, and a smattering of Honors courses--you wonder, huh?

 

Only when we pulled her from public school in January 2010 and began to homeschool did her real motivation come through. Being in the public school environment seemed to dumb her down, and now that she is out of p/s and taking online college courses and attending the local comm coll, is she really producing the work she is capable of doing. And, she is much more fulfilled and proud of herself.

Edited December 22, 2010 by distancia

[Corraleno]

I think the bolded part is possibly or partially true, but I wonder why the students isn't motivated to do better with their grades. While it may reflect a smart but lazy student, it may also reflect a student who is uninterested in the material studied and not likely to jump through official hoops to please others (parents or teachers), and who isn't interested in grades for the sake of grades. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, maybe even a healthy attitude.

 

Some folks are bright but not necessarily motivated by the material and the institutional structure of high school. They also may not be people pleasers. While I think self-discipline is important, sometimes we all need to just do stuff because it needs to be done, self-motiviation is equally important. Grades shouldn't be an ends in and of themselves; they're only a means to another end.

:iagree: That was me.

 

Jackie

[MeganW]

Long long ago (early 90s), I went to Tulane. Most classes had just a final, or a midterm & final, or a term paper & a final, and that was your whole grade. Most exams were written essays, and the topic was almost always "tell me what you have learned in this class, and how you will apply it to your life. You have 4 hours. Go."

 

To grade, the professor had a certain number of things he was looking for. If we spent two entire weeks discussing a certain topic, that better be mentioned along with some relevant facts. How much thought you had put into processing what you had learned and developing an opinion counted too - you couldn't just regurgitate a bunch of facts. More than a certain number of grammatical or spelling errors were considered to be a distraction to your essay, so you lost points for that, even if the class was completely unrelated to English. "There is no point in learning anything or having an opinion if you can't communicate!"

 

Somehow, the professor would manage to get to a final numerical score.

 

Then, the professor would write all the test scores down and draw a bell curve, and assign letter grades based on that. Numbers were irrelevant. If the average score was a 40, that was a C. If the average score was a 90, that was a C.

 

I graduated with a 2.9, and was really proud of that because it was well above average, then found out that all my high school friends had been goofing off for 4 years at other schools and were getting 4.0s and all the job offers. But I clearly got the far superior education!

[Rosie_0801]

My hubby used to have to assign grades for years 11 and 12 based on what he thought the kid would have been capable of earning should they have bothered to take the test. A spiffy system :glare:

 

Rosie

[Tammyla]

Wow.

 

Are your years 11 and 12 our 11th/Junior and 12th/Senior years?

 

My hubby used to have to assign grades for years 11 and 12 based on what he thought the kid would have been capable of earning should they have bothered to take the test. A spiffy system :glare:

 

Rosie

[johnandtinagilbert]

Wow. Do your husband and I work for the same school? I'm not a professor, but just yesterday, I called every single student who hadn't turned in a major paper to me -- and I let them redo assignments and walk them through every major step. I'm okay with letting them redo essays because as an English teacher, I honestly believe in rewriting as a method of learning better, but I hate being driven to teaching decisions by fear.

And I thought that was just my 8th and 9th grader that still needed hand holding. WOW!

 

I'm not sure what the solution is here. We've established a system throughout education that uses grades as credentials, yes; but has also allowed for hyperinflation or low standards to meet those credentials. I was one of those students with great grades, descent (but not exceptional) SATs, that was TOTALLY unprepared for college. I had one class in high school that gave me a glimpse of real education.

 

I am also certain teachers have all the pressures and basically have to do some unreasonable things in order to keep their jobs. NCLB has failed, but I'm not sure (on the other side) what a solution might be, as I do believe there should be some accountability for teachers. The problem is, there is no longer a real measure of accountability for students and parents. I agree that most parents don't care to deal with education; they're content to "let the school handle it."

 

All I know, we ARE getting a better education in our school, maybe without the perks of the engineering magnet school, but nonetheless, my children can write, they can hold articulate conversation, and they are grounded in their faith. That is honestly, not intended to sound insulting, just simply the truth, more than I can say for their p.s. friends.

 

I want to go back to school to complete my teaching degree at some point. The kicker....I'll end up focusing as a reading specialist b/c I can't handle all the bull-poop mentioned in this thread. I'd be fired b/c I wouldn't hyperinflate anything.

 

It is frustrating, though, as a hs parent b/c my kids will be competing w. those high grade averages for scholarship and that's b.s.

[Rosie_0801]

Wow.

 

Are your years 11 and 12 our 11th/Junior and 12th/Senior years?

 

 

Yeah. You have to TRY to fail our state's high school certificate (VCE.) You have to try harder to fail than pass, actually; but getting a great score isn't so easy.

 

Anyway, this experience helped convince him to homeschool ;) The kids' godfather, another former teacher, is quite against homeschooling except for VCE, which he considers a complete waste of time.

 

Rosie

[Tammyla]

Well, at least your kids will benefit from the policy. I'm not going to mention the policy to anyone in my state, as I'm sure they would embrace anything that boosted graduation rates.

 

Yeah. You have to TRY to fail our state's high school certificate (VCE.) You have to try harder to fail than pass, actually; but getting a great score isn't so easy.

 

Anyway, this experience helped convince him to homeschool ;) The kids' godfather, another former teacher, is quite against homeschooling except for VCE, which he considers a complete waste of time.

 

Rosie

[Storm Bay]

That doesn't happen in my dd's classes so far. The only thing that does happen is that if dc fail a test they are allowed to retake it. They don't round grades, either, and give them the grades with decimals. It's done on a point system, so once they add up all your points you get a percentage for the class. She does get some extra credit in math, but she works hard for that (does the difficult extra credit problems & participated in a math meet), but this is an honours math course. I think any student who participates in math meets gets extra credit--one point for every answer right in the meet, so it's only a few points compared with the class as a whole. Still, she raised her percentage by 3 points with all of her extra credit work.

 

That said, her Wellness class is for all academic abilitlies and is very easy. However, so far no rounding up.

 

I think that this practice happens a lot, but not all the time. It's often the result of teachers who are trying to keep their jobs in areas where your performance is judged by student scores.