My rant on IMMIGRATION

[Sputterduck]

Heather, that's difficult. I hope it can be resolved quickly. I would suck to be stuck in a country and not be able leave.

 

I do hope that you rethink your position on the waltzing done in illegal immigration. It seems that you don't really understand the level of terrible suffering that leads many people to illegally cross borders in the first place. If you ever want to visit Mexico, I'll show you myself.

[Rosie_0801]

I hope Aubrey or one of our other writers is reading this. It sounds like one of those situations which are insufferable when they happen in real life, but'd be engrossing if they were happening in a novel.

 

 

 

:grouphug:

Rosie

Edited December 15, 2010 by Rosie_0801
Eek! Posted something in the wrong thread!

[Heather in Neverland]

I'm not going to flame you, but may I point out something? The post you linked was written the day after Natalie was born. From what I recall, Heather found out about her right before she was born. Perhaps at the time of the linked post, she hadn't "done her homework" because it was all brand new. Maybe she only did a quick search or spoke only briefly with the Malaysian government. It is pretty obvious from her latest post on this thread that she did, in fact, do her homework when it came time to do it.

 

Just something to think about.

 

Yes Nakia this is exactly what happened. After getting a lawyer and finding out what the REAL laws are we found out that it would NOT take that long (or at least it shouldn't). It SHOULD be over now as we DID all our homework and we did EVERY SINGLE THING they asked and more. And they are nitpicking a verb or an adjective in our home study. They are not holding our application up over anything SIGNIFICANT. They are just being obstinate. Imagine being told if you do A, B and C then everything will be fine...then you do A,B and C and they say nope...we wanted it in cursive. :glare:

 

And again...no matter WHAT people went through to get into the US (tragic or not) AT LEAST THEY GOT IN...which is more than I can say for my daughter. Many seem to be missing my point...my point is not whether or not they should be allowed in, allowed to stay, or whatever...my point is NOT whether or not they suffered in their attempt to enter the US ILLEGALLY. My point is that they got in...however it happened...they got in and they got in illegally. My daughter can NOT get in (at least not for a long time) and we are doing it LEGALLY. If you cannot see how unfair this is then I don't know what to tell you.

 

Keep in mind that if they turn down her application for immigration we also can NOT even get a VISITOR'S visa for her because they ASSUME that we will just try to get into the US and keep her there (yes they have already told me that in an email). So not only can we not move back if we wanted to, we can NOT EVEN VISIT. Period. Not for christmas or summer or even a funeral, god forbid. Nothing. Well I suppose we could if we are willing to leave our daughter behind...yeah right.

 

So yes, I think it is stupid and unfair and frustrating and very, very sad especially for my mom who wants so badly to see her granddaughter.

[Sputterduck]

Heather, your daughter will go to America in time and get every right that every American citizen has and have the opportunity to live the American dream. Illegal immigrants will never have that.

 

She may have to wait, but she will have more than all those people escaping their terrible lives in their native country. So saying "AT LEAST THEY GOT IN" doesn't matter very much. I understand that you are upset, but she will have more than they ever have. They do what they do in desperation. Your daughter is not in desperation. She has you and the rest of your immediate family and adequate nutrition and safety. Please don't pretend that illegal immigrants have it better than her.

[Heather in Neverland]

The first line in the OP states that she doesn't know enough about this topic to sound educated on it.

I was referring to the overall topic of immigration from a political perspective explaining why I don't normally post on immigration threads. I was not talking about MY specific immigration through adoption issue. That would makeno sense whatsoever.

 

She later says that they crossed every T and dotted every I

and we did...several times...if you look at my lengthy explanation above you will see that the reasons the USCIS are using to hold this up are "trumped up" to say the least. Not one single reason they gave had anything to do with us failing to do something or doing something improperly. It was all about wording (not specified in the application process) or added things they now want us to do (also not specified in the application process and ridiculous even in our lawyer's opinion).

 

And there was some reason to think that she might not have done enough homework if she did not anticipate some of these outcomes. These outcomes could not be anticipated. Well, unless what you are saying is "You should anticipate that you will do everything exactly correct and they will turn you down anyways." Uh no, I guess I didn't anticipate THAT. The ONLY reason we would have to follow the 2nd process would be if they found evidence that Natalie did not qualify as an orphan under their definitions. But that did not happen. They have no issue with that aspect. It is all ridiculous nitpicking that I personally think they are doing just so they can justify their paycheck. They don't seem to care about the repercussions their nitpicking has on my life and the life of my daughter.

 

.

.

[lovemyboys]

Sorry, Heather. I think most Americans have no idea what a nightmare it is to deal with immigration paperwork and procedures. It is really frustrating for those with families from other countries, and I think you've gotten a taste of it. I don't think it's that easy for most illegal immigrants, but it's just sort of standard (unfortunately) for all of this to be a big hassle.

 

I agree.

 

:iagree:

 

It's just the whole gov't bureaucratic hassle. Getting passports and visas for our family was ridiculous. On the second trip, I remember biting my tongue to keep from asking what was so difficult with a process that they worked with all day long. Surely the fine print on the backs of forms, the steps, the exceptions were all pretty well known to them, right? All-in-all it took 3 trips to have everything they required, and that doesn't count a couple phone calls dh made for clarifications.

 

Heather, did you get any info about the denial? Were any reasons given? Checking with your representatives sounds like a good idea. Hope you get some answers and help there. Trust in God's timing too. : )

 

 

(I will stick my head up and say that wrt illegal immigration -- just because the process is tedious or difficult isn't an excuse for ignoring the process all together and going the illegal route. We all deal with frustrating and incompetent folks at the DMV but we still put up with it to get driver's licenses.)

[Sputterduck]

(I will stick my head up and say that wrt illegal immigration -- just because the process is tedious or difficult isn't an excuse for ignoring the process all together and going the illegal route. We all deal with frustrating and incompetent folks at the DMV but we still put up with it to get driver's licenses.)

 

What about people who can't read and have no money to pay for the process?

[Heather in Neverland]

Heather, your daughter will go to America in time and get every right that every American citizen has and have the opportunity to live the American dream. Illegal immigrants will never have that.

 

She may have to wait, but she will have more than all those people escaping their terrible lives in their native country. So saying "AT LEAST THEY GOT IN" doesn't matter very much. I understand that you are upset, but she will have more than they ever have. They do what they do in desperation. Your daughter is not in desperation. She has you and the rest of your immediate family and adequate nutrition and safety. Please don't pretend that illegal immigrants have it better than her.

 

Well here is the thought that kept me up last night...

 

If this go around I did everything correctly according to their instructions and they still turned her down...let's say we wait out the two years and try again, and do everything they ask exactly how they ask, and they STILL turn her down? Because it seems they have that right...to turn her down if they feel like it for whatever reason they feel like. We do not have the financial resources to enter a long legal fight for this. We could be locked out of our home country indefinitely!

 

If I HAD done this illegally...just never applied for the i600, brought her in on a visitor's visa, then just stayed in the US, we would just wait out the two years in the US then apply and deal with the issues then (and I personally know two families who did this exactly and their kids are now US citizens) but at least we would be in the US while it was going on. Now, because we did things the right way, we are being penalized. Try...just try...to see things from my pont of view.

[Sputterduck]

Well here is the thought that kept me up last night...

 

If this go around I did everything correctly according to their instructions and they still turned her down...let's say we wait out the two years and try again, and do everything they ask exactly how they ask, and they STILL turn her down? Because it seems they have that right...to turn her down if they feel like it for whatever reason they feel like. We do not have the financial resources to enter a long legal fight for this. We could be locked out of our home country indefinitely!

 

If I HAD done this illegally...just never applied for the i600, brought her in on a visitor's visa, then just stayed in the US, we would just wait out the two years in the US then apply and deal with the issues then (and I personally know two families who did this exactly and their kids are now US citizens) but at least we would be in the US while it was going on. Now, because we did things the right way, we are being penalized. Try...just try...to see things from my pont of view.

 

That would be terrible. It's already terrible that they are denying you over tiny things at this point. I'm just saying that it's not reasonable to apply this to people who are desperately trying to escape starvation and worse for their family.

 

If you want to get mad at the people who did it illegally with their adopted kids and just skated in and their kids are now citizens, well, I can see that. Did they risk prosecution doing that? I'd be pretty scared to pull that. Kudos to you for doing it the right way, and I'm sorry it didn't work out so far. I do feel awful for you. The US seems really good at annoying good people with all sorts of nitpicky rules while letting bad people fall right through the cracks. I'm sorry for that. I wish the system was set up to let decent people like you right in to the country with their new children.

[Heather in Neverland]

If you want to get mad at the people who did it illegally with their adopted kids and just skated in and their kids are now citizens, well, I can see that. .

 

See that's just it. No prosecution. There are 'threats' from INS that they might deport the child or whatever knowing darn well they are not going to deport the child of two US citizens...and they don't. In the end they get a stern lecture about how they should have followed the rules and their kids got citizenship. :glare: I guess that's what I get for being a rule-follower.

[Sputterduck]

See that's just it. No prosecution. There are 'threats' from INS that they might deport the child or whatever knowing darn well they are not going to deport the child of two US citizens...and they don't. In the end they get a stern lecture about how they should have followed the rules and their kids got citizenship. :glare: I guess that's what I get for being a rule-follower.

 

I'm sorry. I wish things were more just. I really do.

[Jean in Newcastle]

See that's just it. No prosecution. There are 'threats' from INS that they might deport the child or whatever knowing darn well they are not going to deport the child of two US citizens...and they don't. In the end they get a stern lecture about how they should have followed the rules and their kids got citizenship. :glare: I guess that's what I get for being a rule-follower.

 

Wait . . . aren't you following the laws because this is what God would want you to do? Didn't He bring her into your life? Isn't He going to work out these details?

[Heather in Neverland]

Wait . . . aren't you following the laws because this is what God would want you to do? Didn't He bring her into your life? Isn't He going to work out these details?

 

Please tell me you are not questioning my faith now too. Sheesh. Ease up already.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Please tell me you are not questioning my faith now too. Sheesh. Ease up already.

 

Heather, these are questions I would ask myself and do have to ask myself when I start to lose perspective. These are questions I would want other believers to ask me. But if that's not how you see it, then I'm sorry. I will bow out now.

[specialmama]

Well here is the thought that kept me up last night...

 

If this go around I did everything correctly according to their instructions and they still turned her down...let's say we wait out the two years and try again, and do everything they ask exactly how they ask, and they STILL turn her down? Because it seems they have that right...to turn her down if they feel like it for whatever reason they feel like. We do not have the financial resources to enter a long legal fight for this. We could be locked out of our home country indefinitely!

 

If I HAD done this illegally...just never applied for the i600, brought her in on a visitor's visa, then just stayed in the US, we would just wait out the two years in the US then apply and deal with the issues then (and I personally know two families who did this exactly and their kids are now US citizens) but at least we would be in the US while it was going on. Now, because we did things the right way, we are being penalized. Try...just try...to see things from my pont of view.

 

Heather, all I have to say is please try to give this to God and don't lose sleep over it. Sister, this has the potential to be a HUGE thorn in your side. This can eat you up, and keep your eyes off of Him, and take away your sleep, your appetite, your health, your sanity, in fact, this has the potential to destroy your family if you let it get to you. Don't do it, Heather, don't let this get you sidetracked. Keep up the good fight. Please read Matthew 6:33. Praying for you... :grouphug:

[Heather in Neverland]

Heather, all I have to say is please try to give this to God and don't lose sleep over it. Sister, this has the potential to be a HUGE thorn in your side. This can eat you up, and keep your eyes off of Him, and take away your sleep, your appetite, your health, your sanity, in fact, this has the potential to destroy your family if you let it get to you. Don't do it, Heather, don't let this get you sidetracked. Keep up the good fight. Please read Matthew 6:33. Praying for you... :grouphug:

 

yes, I am trying very hard not to let it get me down. Today is better than yesterday. It doesn't help that my mom is so upset that she can't see Natalie and I feel helpless to do anything about it. I know God has a plan and none of this is a surprise to Him but I wouldn't be human if things didn't frustrate me sometimes. Dh and I are in prayer about it and doing all we can to appeal. Even if they say we can't move her to the US and we have to stay here another year...if we could just get her to the US for a short visit this summer I would be happy.

[Rosie_0801]

This might be a dumb question, or has been answered elsewhere and I haven't seen, but can't you finance your Mum to come to you?

 

Rosie

[EthiopianFood]

This might be a dumb question, or has been answered elsewhere and I haven't seen, but can't you finance your Mum to come to you?

 

Rosie

 

I think she said her mom wasn't well enough to travel. :(

[Rosie_0801]

I think she said her mom wasn't well enough to travel. :(

 

Bummer :( Not even with a companion? That would still be cheaper than a family trip back to the US.

 

Rosie

[Renee in NC]

Heather, I am very sorry that your Mom can't see your daughter - I hope that somehow you work out that she can come or meet you somewhere closer to the US where your daughter can go with her Malaysian passport.

 

What about people who can't read and have no money to pay for the process?

 

Even if they could, we don't let uneducated, low skilled workers in legally. Not only that, but we *do* let them in illegally. There are occasional raids at big plants and such for the publicity, but generally the gov't knows they are in the country illegally and they are left alone. People here without valid SS numbers most often are still paid under a fake number, so they pay social security and medicare taxes in on their wages. Since they will never be able to collect, they effectively are paying 7.65% in taxes every week on wages that, if they were here legally, would garner them the big EIC/CTC refund at the end of the year.

 

Our food is cheap because companies can pay illegals a lot less. Food processing (for the most part) cannot be outsourced like most other things have been, so they bring the oursourcing here. Even during this recession, there aren't a great number of Americans waiting to work on their feet in 32 degree temps 8 hours a day for $8 an hour. Even though after awhile, they can move up and make $10 an hour on the kill floor, where the temps are usually 100 degrees. I can name a ton of other jobs that are the same - picking crops, slaughtering cattle, etc. They are jobs Americans used to do, but wages were higher (relative to inflation.)

 

Other countries have guest worker programs that legalize this, but that would be political suicide in our country. So, instead, the gov't makes a show of raiding a few places every now and then, but mostly they just ignore what is going on. It actually helps our economy by increasing our buying power. (I am not saying there aren't problems with this model, but there are ways to limit those problems which the gov't can't do as long as they are pretending to do something about it.)

 

At the same time, they make things very difficult for people coming in legally. One of the reasons? Those people who come into the country legally have rights and aren't going to stand for some of the things that go on now if you are illegal.

 

Heather, I am very sorry that your Mom can't see your daughter - I hope that somehow you work out that she can come or meet you somewhere closer to the US where your daughter can go with her Malaysian passport.

[Melinda in VT]

Heather, can you legally get your daughter to Canada on a visitor's visa and then get your mom to Canada?

[Heather in Neverland]

Heather, can you legally get your daughter to Canada on a visitor's visa and then get your mom to Canada?

 

That is a very interesting idea... I will check it out! The school pays for our plane tickets so it wouldn't cost us anything more. Hmmm...

[FaithManor]

Melinda! That's a very creative idea. We have friends who live in Canada but work in Detroit and frankly, it seems that the Canadian officials are, well, more cheerful, reasonable, and efficient. Of course, in defense of our INS, I don't think that Canada probably deals with the sheer number of immigrants that America does. But, if they could just take a family vacation to Canada, grandma might be able to make it if they could pay another family member or a neighbor to help her...even a flight would be soooo short by comparison.

 

Faith

[FaithManor]

Heather, does your mom have a passport or enhanced driver's license? She'll need that to get across the border but the enhanced driver's license does work...we've heard of great success here in Michigan with this and it's so much cheaper and easier to get.

 

Heather, honestly...I will do what I can to help. We live in Michigan in the lower Peninsula and more toward the east side of the state than the west. I don't have my enhanced driver's license but I can get one. If you can get tourist visas for your family to Canada and it is difficult to fly your mother and her travel companion to Canada, if you can fly her to Michigan, I can drive her over and meet you in Sarnia or Windsor. Dh has friends that reside halfway between Sarnia and Windsor, along the St. Clair River, and we can get their advice and instructions on how and where to meet. We can then come back and meet you there at the end of the visit. Or if you prefer, you or your dh could drive across, if you think it would be easier, and we know many nice places in Port Huron or Detroit where we can sit and wait for you.

 

We may never have met in person, but you are my sister in Christ and I respect what you are doing so much, so I'll trust God that if He wants me to be involved in this process, He will work out the details between strangers!

 

Faith

[astrid]

Heather, nobody said that you didn't have a right to be frustrated, annoyed, irritated or so forth. I think most people validated your feelings on that score. Nobody suggested that you were or would be questioned about human trafficking, people said that is the reason for some of these rules and it is a really good reason, no matter how annoying it makes it to work through the red tape.

 

YES. EXACTLY what I said.....Not sure how it was construed otherwise.

 

 

Astrid has her view on threaded view. If you are on linear, depending upon how you responded, it might look like you responded to her.

 

Oh yes---"Hybrid view." Sorry--- I forget there are options now; I'm still functioning on "old board" principles! :001_smile:

 

astrid

[astrid]

Now, because we did things the right way, we are being penalized. Try...just try...to see things from my pont of view.

 

Um, at the risk of sounding redundant, I don't think anyone here isn't able to see it from your point of view. We all understand and validate your frustration. I think there have been many, many posts that expressed how much sympathy folks have for you and your plight

 

But it seems to me you are just not able (or not willing) to see it from the point of view of the government, or the illegals who are acting out of desperation. It works both ways. You chose to move your family to Malaysia, and then you chose to adopt a child. Right or wrong, these are the rules of the game. I know we as Americans are used to "waltzing" wherever, whenever we want, but think of it this way--- you have your heart's desire (I remember once you used those words, or similar to, when you were talking about how much you've always wanted a daughter?) a beautiful baby girl, and your family is safe and well fed and loved.

 

It will all work out. Call your Congressperson, contact an immigration lawyer in the USA, and I"m sure it will all work out. Frustrating, yes. But it's not infertility-- you HAVE her.

 

astrid

[Mejane]

Paperwork, ineptitude, or laziness by officials, imo, is to be expected(even tho it should not happen).

 

 

Ain't that the truth? Knowing how our government agencies function, if they told me two years, I'd expect four. :glare:

[Lolly]

Um, at the risk of sounding redundant, I don't think anyone here isn't able to see it from your point of view. We all understand and validate your frustration. I think there have been many, many posts that expressed how much sympathy folks have for you and your plight

 

But it seems to me you are just not able (or not willing) to see it from the point of view of the government, or the illegals who are acting out of desperation. It works both ways. You chose to move your family to Malaysia, and then you chose to adopt a child. Right or wrong, these are the rules of the game. I know we as Americans are used to "waltzing" wherever, whenever we want, but think of it this way--- you have your heart's desire (I remember once you used those words, or similar to, when you were talking about how much you've always wanted a daughter?) a beautiful baby girl, and your family is safe and well fed and loved.

 

It will all work out. Call your Congressperson, contact an immigration lawyer in the USA, and I"m sure it will all work out. Frustrating, yes. But it's not infertility-- you HAVE her.

 

astrid

 

 

Plus, when in this position, we do tend to hear what we want to hear. I have friends who are in the middle of an adoption. They were told there was a slight possibility of a little snag, but that nothing should come of it. When they told me what the potential snag was, I wanted to scream and shake them. They listened with their hearts instead of their minds. Now, they have custody of the child (and have had for months), but are stuck waiting on the adoption which may or may not go through.

 

In this case, the bureaucracy has the ability/right to say yea or nay based on pretty much anything. If they get a negative feeling, they are going to find a way to delay. The sad fact is that they could get that feeling based on the ease of the adoption (Which, of course, Heather was simply blessed to have). I mean how many people move to a foreign country; shortly after which they get a call asking if they might want to adopt a baby because their friend/acquaintance knows a teen who is giving birth; and three months later the adoption is final? To a government official who is used to working with adoptions, that is probably going to send up so many red flags it is insane. It simply is not the norm. Does that mean that Heather doesn't deserve to be able to take her baby to visit her mom? Of course not. But, it does show where officials might feel the need to nitpick the application and cause a delay. Or, perhaps someone felt like they were treated rudely by someone they felt was an arrogant American and wanted to have their way on their timetable. Heather's blog self describes her as having thrown a fit because the embassy told her that they couldn't see them that day that they would need to come back. (I understand the fit; she had gone to a lot of trouble and traveled a long distance. They would have most likely gotten an earful from me too.) Or, perhaps there really was no reason. The thing is that many, many of these "orphan" based adoptions do NOT get clearance. International adoption protocol is to not something you can count on it. An advanced processing petition is the usual method, and the one most people who have adopted internationally have used. (I believe it is recommended that people not attempt international adoption without it.) Even then, it is not a sure thing. I know several people personally who have gone this route only to return home empty handed after almost a year of adoption proceedings.

 

All that aside, everyone I've known personally who has gone into an international adoption (including myself) has known the risks involved. It does not make it easy to handle when the ax falls on you. It makes you angry. It makes you even more frustrated. But, the risks were known from the beginning. Should it take so long? Hard to say given the potential for exploitation. Should you be punished for taking the legal way? No. The hard pill to swallow is that you are not being punished. The cheaters are being rewarded. That is a different thing altogether. I think you have to look at it in another way; would you have those who cheat lose their children? That is the alternative, and what will probably start happening if it becomes a frequent thing.

[Osmosis Mom]

See that's just it. No prosecution. There are 'threats' from INS that they might deport the child or whatever knowing darn well they are not going to deport the child of two US citizens...and they don't. In the end they get a stern lecture about how they should have followed the rules and their kids got citizenship. :glare: I guess that's what I get for being a rule-follower.

 

But, Heather, we are in the same boat here. We are not you, but we entered the country legally and did everything by the book and after almost 14 years here we just got the green card 3 years ago after a hefty fee and a nightmarish process. If you know me, then I am as American as any one else, but the bureaucrazy doesn't care.....

[Mejane]

but the bureaucrazy doesn't care.....

 

There it is!

 

You have all my sympathies, Nadia.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Mejane

[Heather in Neverland]

Heather, does your mom have a passport or enhanced driver's license? She'll need that to get across the border but the enhanced driver's license does work...we've heard of great success here in Michigan with this and it's so much cheaper and easier to get.

 

Heather, honestly...I will do what I can to help. We live in Michigan in the lower Peninsula and more toward the east side of the state than the west. I don't have my enhanced driver's license but I can get one. If you can get tourist visas for your family to Canada and it is difficult to fly your mother and her travel companion to Canada, if you can fly her to Michigan, I can drive her over and meet you in Sarnia or Windsor. Dh has friends that reside halfway between Sarnia and Windsor, along the St. Clair River, and we can get their advice and instructions on how and where to meet. We can then come back and meet you there at the end of the visit. Or if you prefer, you or your dh could drive across, if you think it would be easier, and we know many nice places in Port Huron or Detroit where we can sit and wait for you.

 

We may never have met in person, but you are my sister in Christ and I respect what you are doing so much, so I'll trust God that if He wants me to be involved in this process, He will work out the details between strangers!

 

Faith

 

Faith YOU are an AMAZING woman with an enormous heart. Thank you SO MUCH for your support in this and this generous offer. I am not sure how the details will work out. Natalie has a malaysian passport so she can leave Malaysia, I am just not sure what countries she can get IN TO. My mom does not have a passport...not sure about the new DL...but we could get her either of those before our planned visit in June.

 

Just the mere idea that there is a glimmer of hope for her to see her grand-daughter has made my day!

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

And yes, I sincerely hope that anyone thinking of adopting internationally learns from my situation not to believe one word anyone...lawyers, government officials, etc...says. It's all lies. Be prepared to have to put your entire life on hold indefinitely as a punishment for daring to adopt a child or be prepared to go about it in some "less than legal" fashion like thousands of others do. In the end, I still have my baby girl and I am so aggravated with the US government right now that if it weren't for my mom I would tell them exactly what they can do with our immigration application.

[TravelingChris]

THere are so many problems with bureaucracies but usually they are not specific to you. As many others have related here, adoption petitions, green card petitions, work petitions,etc. all have lots of problems. People file, get rejected, appeal, get rejected, refile, etc. There may be good reasons for the policies but when applied, they seem arbitrary and may in fact be truly arbitrary. It isn't pleasant to be stuck in this situation no matter whether the bureacratic nightmare is at immigration or dmv or post office or whatever bureacracy. Can I tell you that earlier in my adult life I had horrible problems with mail. Not just at one place either. It kept happening. The first issue was that I had a check stolen from my box and it was from the Social Security-three agencies to deal with and my money was already late when the check was stolen. It took me over a year to get my legally owed money. Then another time in another state, the mail just suddenly stopped being delivered. I had two more issues with the postal service in two other places. By the last one, I couldn't even go to complain about the problem and had to have dh do it since I would just start shaking and crying. SO what is the point? Bureacracies s--k and they move extremely slowly at times. Turn to the Lord, work calmly on solutions, and we will pray for you.

[plansrme]

I am one of the ones who questioned her lack of knowledge. To be quite honest, something was fiddling around in the back of my head. (My memory is just really too good.) It was just bothering me.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1391455&postcount=7

 

Also, to the poster who was looking up Malaysian adoption laws, the laws I was referring to are US laws for international adoptions. They are not specific to any particular part of Malaysia.

 

Now preparing my flame suit for posting this.

 

I realize we're all experts on international adoption on this board, but Heather's daughter's application was not denied because the adoption was less than 2 years ago. It was denied for other so-called reasons that have nothing to do with how long she has or has not been in Malaysia.

 

Again, I cannot believe the turn this thread has taken.

 

Terri

[Sputterduck]

Heather, I am very sorry that your Mom can't see your daughter - I hope that somehow you work out that she can come or meet you somewhere closer to the US where your daughter can go with her Malaysian passport.

 

 

 

Even if they could, we don't let uneducated, low skilled workers in legally. Not only that, but we *do* let them in illegally. There are occasional raids at big plants and such for the publicity, but generally the gov't knows they are in the country illegally and they are left alone. People here without valid SS numbers most often are still paid under a fake number, so they pay social security and medicare taxes in on their wages. Since they will never be able to collect, they effectively are paying 7.65% in taxes every week on wages that, if they were here legally, would garner them the big EIC/CTC refund at the end of the year.

 

Our food is cheap because companies can pay illegals a lot less. Food processing (for the most part) cannot be outsourced like most other things have been, so they bring the oursourcing here. Even during this recession, there aren't a great number of Americans waiting to work on their feet in 32 degree temps 8 hours a day for $8 an hour. Even though after awhile, they can move up and make $10 an hour on the kill floor, where the temps are usually 100 degrees. I can name a ton of other jobs that are the same - picking crops, slaughtering cattle, etc. They are jobs Americans used to do, but wages were higher (relative to inflation.)

 

Other countries have guest worker programs that legalize this, but that would be political suicide in our country. So, instead, the gov't makes a show of raiding a few places every now and then, but mostly they just ignore what is going on. It actually helps our economy by increasing our buying power. (I am not saying there aren't problems with this model, but there are ways to limit those problems which the gov't can't do as long as they are pretending to do something about it.)

 

At the same time, they make things very difficult for people coming in legally. One of the reasons? Those people who come into the country legally have rights and aren't going to stand for some of the things that go on now if you are illegal.

 

Heather, I am very sorry that your Mom can't see your daughter - I hope that somehow you work out that she can come or meet you somewhere closer to the US where your daughter can go with her Malaysian passport.

 

Actually, we do have programs where companies can bring in foreign workers.

 

And that was kind of my point, about people being uneducated. Crossing the border is often their only option for a better life, and they *can't* get in legally. Saying why don't they just go the legal route and get through the process doesn't make very much sense.

[FaithManor]

Heather, I don't know about the enhanced driver's license in every state, but in Michigan, if you already have a driver's license, then bringing three proofs of citizenship (usually a birth certificate, proof of taxes paid as a U.S. Citizen, or Social Security Card, and even a letter from your employer that you are employed as a citizen and not on a work visa) is all you need and it's maybe a 30 day wait for the enhanced license. It can be used for travel to Canada and Mexico.

 

As you begin exploring your options, please feel free to PM me and I will do anything I can stateside to help you. Canada is much more friendly and open to immigration than the states so I think you stand a chance of being able to visit from there.

 

Now, about the turn this thread has taken. I'd just like to say that I am rather amazed at the double standard. There are risks taken when one chooses to get pregnant. Most grown women are very well informed about what those risks are, all of the unexpected things that can go wrong, etc. I find it interesting that when a woman posts here that her insurance company is denying her access to the obstetrician she wants, or to pay for a midwife, or that she's being treated like crap by her OB or some other medical person, or she finds out that her child may have a chromosomal problem, congenital defect, she develops a health problem that's pregnancy related, or put on bed rest....absolutely no one says, "Well, you should have known the risks." No one says, "I'd like to shake her because she should have known not to have another one." No one says, "Well, surely you knew how to prevent a pregnancy so no compassion for you." No one gets their tail in a twist that she should have read her insurance regulations more carefully before getting pregnant. No one calls her on the carpet if she actually, truely, did something really unwise. No one wants to be that judgmental and the reason for that is "IT'S CRUEL!!!!!" Cruel, cruel, cruel....

 

But, I have noticed that when someone adopts a child or takes guardianship of a relative's child, or does foster care, there is a certain, "Well, you idiot....what did you think would happen????" holier than thou attitude. Though sometimes there is some grace, some mercy extended, it is never, ever, in the ball park of that extended to women who have difficult deliveries and birth children that need serious help and encounter bureaucratic nightmares. Yet, in most cases, all of these children were planned or at least, these women were very much aware that if they got pregnant, the outcome is not guaranteed to be rosy...but those situations, well every one is on their best behavior about what they post. It is apparently okay to get pregnant and hope that everything is fine but be able to vent when it is not...but it is not okay to adopt, or foster and hope that things will go well and then post frustrations when it does not.

 

We are currently in a situation trying to help a little girl in our community whom we would be honored to make a member of our family. If I related the circumstances under which her mother just simply "doesn't want her anymore", you'd be dumb founded, flabbergasted, falling backward in disbelief. I can't relate that without at least bringing up a subject that in all likelihood would get a bunch of you flaming me for my feelings about it. This thread has proven to me that though I'd really like to "let it all out" and get my blood pressure down before my brain explodes into tiny bits all over the computer screen, I can't. I'll end up being attacked. Inevitably, a bunch of you will adopt the, "Well, didn't you know it would be problematic trying to take this child into your home??? Did you think it would go smoothly??? Didn't you do your research??? Are you ignorant??? Tsk, tsk, tsk....you slacker!" attitude and personally, I can't handle that right now.

 

I've got no one to talk to IRL. Many of our friends think we are nuts to even consider it and so inevitably we get, "Well, maybe all of this trouble is God's way of saying you shouldn't do this." Of course, despite that fact that we've had confirmation that for good or for bad, whether or not we are ever able to bring her into our home, we should be a part of this process though so maddening that it should be considered Cruel and Inhumane under our constitution! I can't talk to my parents because they are under so much stress trying to help my sister through her volatile divorce, that sometimes they look like they can't put one foot in front of the other. And to add insult to injury, I can't post here and at least feel like I've gotten to lean on a friend.

 

So, let the flames for my pity party begin! I won't be around to read them. I'm going off the boards for a break while. I will sign in once per day to see if anyone has PM'ed me and especially Heather, Nakia, Mariann, Imp, and LuvingLife...please do....I will stay in touch with you.

 

Rosie, Peela, Jenn in Michigan.....I'm going to miss your posts. Amber, I really hope that possum comes home soon and you are still in my prayers. Everyone that I've pledged to pray for is still on my list and those thoughts and prayers will continue to wing on your behalf.

 

Maybe sometime after the first of the year and a definitive yea or nae on our potential little girl, something we've been promised by January 1 and yeah, I'm just naive enough to hope that somehow this stupid bureaucracy will stop playing Russian Roulette with this child's life and make a decision...maybe then, I'll be prepared to come back and can better handle th intensity that has been the boards as of late. That said, if I do return to the general board, I don't think I will post about the outcome and for those who would pm and ask with goodwill intent, please do not share my personal posts to you.

 

A very genuine Merry Christmas to all!

Faith

[Mejane]

Now, about the turn this thread has taken. I'd just like to say that I am rather amazed at the double standard. There are risks taken when one chooses to get pregnant. Most grown women are very well informed about what those risks are, all of the unexpected things that can go wrong, etc. I find it interesting that when a woman posts here that her insurance company is denying her access to the obstetrician she wants, or to pay for a midwife, or that she's being treated like crap by her OB or some other medical person, or she finds out that her child may have a chromosomal problem, congenital defect, she develops a health problem that's pregnancy related, or put on bed rest....absolutely no one says, "Well, you should have known the risks." No one calls her on the carpet if she actually, truely, did something really unwise.

 

 

So you think the board has some sort of anti-adoption bias? I don't see it. I've seen plenty of people called on the carpet for doing things other people deem "unwise" in almost every imaginable situation. People are attacked here routinely for much less than what Heather said.

 

Hope you have a lovely holiday and that your own adoption plans go smoothly.

[unsinkable]

:blink:

[Lolly]

 

Now, about the turn this thread has taken. I'd just like to say that I am rather amazed at the double standard. There are risks taken when one chooses to get pregnant. Most grown women are very well informed about what those risks are, all of the unexpected things that can go wrong, etc. I find it interesting that when a woman posts here that her insurance company is denying her access to the obstetrician she wants, or to pay for a midwife, or that she's being treated like crap by her OB or some other medical person, or she finds out that her child may have a chromosomal problem, congenital defect, she develops a health problem that's pregnancy related, or put on bed rest....absolutely no one says, "Well, you should have known the risks." No one says, "I'd like to shake her because she should have known not to have another one." No one says, "Well, surely you knew how to prevent a pregnancy so no compassion for you." No one gets their tail in a twist that she should have read her insurance regulations more carefully before getting pregnant. No one calls her on the carpet if she actually, truely, did something really unwise. No one wants to be that judgmental and the reason for that is "IT'S CRUEL!!!!!" Cruel, cruel, cruel.... Probably because in a pregnancy complication it is just something that happened or went wrong. The person is just stating that they have encountered a problem. A more apt analogy would be to compare someone who tested as having an increased risk for a Down syndrome baby being surprised that they have a baby with Down's. Or, someone who has gestational diabetes who is surprised that they give birth to a baby who is very large. As far as insurance coverage goes, well, they should have read their policy. Personally, someone who smokes a pack a day who is put on bedrest, I probably would give them a look like they are crazy when they develop complications.

 

But, I have noticed that when someone adopts a child or takes guardianship of a relative's child, or does foster care, there is a certain, "Well, you idiot....what did you think would happen????" holier than thou attitude. Though sometimes there is some grace, some mercy extended, it is never, ever, in the ball park of that extended to women who have difficult deliveries and birth children that need serious help and encounter bureaucratic nightmares. Yet, in most cases, all of these children were planned or at least, these women were very much aware that if they got pregnant, the outcome is not guaranteed to be rosy...but those situations, well every one is on their best behavior about what they post. It is apparently okay to get pregnant and hope that everything is fine but be able to vent when it is not...but it is not okay to adopt, or foster and hope that things will go well and then post frustrations when it does not.I feel you are speaking to me. In the case of my friend, I feel that she would have taken this child no matter what. However, I really do think she should have done it without the rose colored glasses. She is handling the delay/change with tremendous grace. I'm just surprised that with her level of intelligence that she did not see problems coming. (The birth father has not signed a consent form; they expected the adoption to proceed???) Given all the facts (if accurate from her caseworker), they do stand a chance of it going thru. But to expect it without any complications? In Heather's case, her posts were indicating that she did not know this was a possibility. I recalled that she did know. It just didn't add up. (Got to admit that her saying the adoption wasn't quick and easy sort of got under my skin. It occurred in about the minimum amount of time an adoption can happen.) In your situation, it seems to me that you are going in with your eyes wide open. Adoption is rarely an easy thing. Personally, it is much more difficult than giving birth naturally.

 

A very genuine Merry Christmas to all!

 

 

Faith

Merry Christmas. Edited December 15, 2010 by Lolly

[Storm Bay]

Ok, normally I stay away form this topic because, to be honest, I don't know enough to sound educated on it.

 

HOWEVER

 

We recently applied for immigrant status for the baby girl we adopted here (our adoption is final on the Malaysian end).

 

We took in stacks and stacks of documentation about everything you could think of.

 

We were fingerprinted at the embassy.

 

We were interviewed by government agents.

 

We crossed every T.

 

We dotted every i.

 

And we received a letter from the United States Customs and Immigration Services that our application for immigrant status for our adopted daughter has been denied.

 

And yet thousands and thousands of illegal immigrants waltz across the border every day....no problem. I try to follow the rules and do things the right way and get denied. Hmmm....maybe if I brought her in illegally it would be easier... :glare:

 

Don't even get me started on INS!!! Did you do this all on your own or did you hire an immigration lawyer? I immigrated here all on my own (got married, and not just to live here), but my kid brother-the-actor hires a lawyer every time he applies for a work visa here.

 

Find out if you can re-apply or appeal this, but don't give up!

[Renee in NC]

Actually, we do have programs where companies can bring in foreign workers.

 

And that was kind of my point, about people being uneducated. Crossing the border is often their only option for a better life, and they *can't* get in legally. Saying why don't they just go the legal route and get through the process doesn't make very much sense.

 

Oh, I know we do have programs.

 

The H-1B program is used to bring in ag workers for 6 months out of the year, but their aren't enough of those to go around. Not only that, but farmers who use that program have to not only pay $9+ an hour, they also have to provide housing at a certain standard. Farmers who can't afford that use people who came into the country illegally.;)

 

Other visa programs only allow for educated foreigners with certain skills, but there isn't a program anywhere for the slaughter plant worker, the people who make those clay jars with "Ashes of _______ (Complaining Customers, ex-Husbands, etc.) Ten years ago I visited that plant to do a cost study and found out that the only documented workers were in the office.:tongue_smilie: If not for that, he would've had to move his operations to another country because the profit margin was so small and citizens usually lasted about 3 days.:001_huh:

 

I realize that this has absolutely nothing to do with Heather's plight with the crazy mess we call the INS and I do sympathize with her. It seems that she may be able to work something out to see her mom after all.

[Storm Bay]

:grouphug:

 

 

for us, we found the best strategy was to show up in person, with every paper anyone had ever given us, all copied so we could leave copies with the people trying to help us. rinse. repeat.

 

good luck!

ann

 

fwiw, the one application INS lost was the one they required me to hand deliver to a person. Other than that, my immigration went smoothly despite the very poor and inadequate information the INS supplied at times.

 

You would think but no. Eventually they will let her but it has to be after 2 years of us having legal custody which would be jan of 2012, before we can apply so we are looking at july of 2012 if we are lucky before we can take her to the U.S. even for a visit. :confused:

 

It's hard, but at least there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

[Renee in NC]

fwiw, the one application INS lost was the one they required me to hand deliver to a person. Other than that, my immigration went smoothly despite the very poor and inadequate information the INS supplied at times.

 

It's hard, but at least there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

I had a friend who was trying to get his wife's 2 dc into the country. After she was granted her green card, they applied for her 2 boys to come. The two applications went in the same envelope with two separate checks. One application was lost, but both checks were cashed.:glare:

[ktgrok]

am I the only one that thought the whole point was "It's crazy that it is so much easier to do this process illegally rather than legally. It's almost like the government is encouraging us to do it illegally." ? At no point did I think she was mad or angry at people that came in illegally, she was mad at the government for making things so crazy that the legal process is stacked against people. I never got the impression she was anti immigrant, just anti current immigration policies that make no sense.

[Mabelen]

Oh, I know we do have programs.

 

The H-1B program is used to bring in ag workers for 6 months out of the year, but their aren't enough of those to go around. Not only that, but farmers who use that program have to not only pay $9+ an hour, they also have to provide housing at a certain standard. Farmers who can't afford that use people who came into the country illegally.;)

 

Other visa programs only allow for educated foreigners with certain skills, but there isn't a program anywhere for the slaughter plant worker, the people who make those clay jars with "Ashes of _______ (Complaining Customers, ex-Husbands, etc.) Ten years ago I visited that plant to do a cost study and found out that the only documented workers were in the office.:tongue_smilie: If not for that, he would've had to move his operations to another country because the profit margin was so small and citizens usually lasted about 3 days.:001_huh:

 

I realize that this has absolutely nothing to do with Heather's plight with the crazy mess we call the INS and I do sympathize with her. It seems that she may be able to work something out to see her mom after all.

 

One small correction. The H visas are for temporary workers, but specifically the H-1B visa is for highly specialized knowledge positions only. You need to have a minimum of a B.A. and experience in your particular field; a labor condition application is also required.

 

The H-2A visa is the one for agricultural workers; a labor condition application is not required.

 

Isn't dealing with the immigration process fun? I have been there done that and I am glad it is over!

[Storm Bay]

am I the only one that thought the whole point was "It's crazy that it is so much easier to do this process illegally rather than legally. It's almost like the government is encouraging us to do it illegally." ? At no point did I think she was mad or angry at people that came in illegally, she was mad at the government for making things so crazy that the legal process is stacked against people. I never got the impression she was anti immigrant, just anti current immigration policies that make no sense.

No, I thought what you did. The US can't let everyone in who applies every year (there is, or at least used to be, a lottery system for some types of immigration), but to make it so easy for illegal aliens to live and work here is frustrating for those of us who do it legally.

[QueenCat]

am I the only one that thought the whole point was "It's crazy that it is so much easier to do this process illegally rather than legally. It's almost like the government is encouraging us to do it illegally." ? At no point did I think she was mad or angry at people that came in illegally, she was mad at the government for making things so crazy that the legal process is stacked against people. I never got the impression she was anti immigrant, just anti current immigration policies that make no sense.

 

:iagree: Those were my impressions too. I feel bad that Heather has been bashed on here.

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm sorry, but when you go off about a gentle post like Jean's, you have officially lost it, imo.

[Renee in NC]

One small correction. The H visas are for temporary workers, but specifically the H-1B visa is for highly specialized knowledge positions only. You need to have a minimum of a B.A. and experience in your particular field; a labor condition application is also required.

 

The H-2A visa is the one for agricultural workers; a labor condition application is not required.

 

Isn't dealing with the immigration process fun? I have been there done that and I am glad it is over!

 

Sorry, had the wrong number in my head.:D

 

I think the whole thing is NUTS personally!

[Audrey]

I'm sorry, but when you go off about a gentle post like Jean's, you have officially lost it, imo.

 

Glad you said that. That was definitely a :001_huh: moment.

[Heather in Neverland]

am I the only one that thought the whole point was "It's crazy that it is so much easier to do this process illegally rather than legally. It's almost like the government is encouraging us to do it illegally." ? At no point did I think she was mad or angry at people that came in illegally, she was mad at the government for making things so crazy that the legal process is stacked against people. I never got the impression she was anti immigrant, just anti current immigration policies that make no sense.

 

That was my intended original meaning (with some extra angst about my daughter not seeing my mom thrown in for good measure) but it was lost about 14 pages ago because I used the word "waltzed". My bad. :tongue_smilie: