Math...again...and again...someone just tell me what to do.

[5LittleMonkeys]

I just spent 20 minutes sitting on the couch holding dd11 while she balled about math. My heart is broken for her. She had just done a page of figuring common factors (it went slow but she did it all without using her chart or calculator) and after a short break she moved on to a word problem that required she add two fractions. She couldn't figure out what operation to use to get the answer. Then after we worked it out with manipulatives she needed to subtract 6 from 8 and she couldn't do it in her head. She sat for a good two minutes holding her head. I kept telling her to use tally marks or count on her fingers but she wouldn't. She said a sixth grader shouldn't have to count on her fingers. She finally ended up using the manipulatives but then burst out into tears.

 

I don't know what specifically is wrong with her so it is very hard for me to know what program to put her in. Does she have a LD or is it just that she doesn't have a strong enough foundation? How do I determine what the problem is? I really thought MUS was the answer for her because she is very visual but now I'm thinking she may need a spiral method. My gut tells me to go WAY back maybe with MEP or MM and start at the beginning. I had given her some MEP worksheets a while back and she did like them, although she balked at the fact that they were "2nd grade". (She is very hung up on where she "should" be in grade level.)

 

Uh, I'm rambling. I will list the problems she has and maybe someone could tell me how I need to proceed.

 

* She can not retain math facts. There are a few she can recall but never instantly. It takes her a while to pull them out of her brain.

* When she is doing large addition and subtraction problems she gets bogged down because she has to figure out what 11 - 5 is, then when she gets that answer she has lost her place in the problem and forgets what the next step is. Same thing happens with long division and large multiplication problems.

* ANY type of word problem stumps her. Her brain freezes up right after she reads the problem. Even something as simple as Jack has 2, Jill has 5 more. How many does Jill have? I even have to help her draw it or set up the manipulatives.

* Doesn't readily use concepts like - 43+24. Take 40+20 then 3+4 and add those together. She understands once I remind her to do it this way but I have to go over it with her every time. It's not something she ever thinks to do on her own. This is true of any shortcut methods.

* Has a lot of difficulty with problems such as - if 8x7=56 then solve 56/y=7. She can figure it out but it takes a while. I wish I could be in her brain when she is thinking because I don't know if she is thinking of what she had for lunch or if she is actually trying to process the information.:confused:

 

That is all I can think of right now. I am just paralyzed right now. I don't want to keep moving forward but have no idea what program to move to or how far back to go. We have drilled facts until we are both sick of it...I know drilling more isn't the answer. I use MEP with dd7 and, as I said above, I feel MEP might be a good fit but I'm just apprehensive to do anything for fear of making things worse. She already hates math though so I guess it can't get too much worse. If you have a child like this, what is working for you? Is not doing math an option?:tongue_smilie:

[Chris in VA]

With all you've said, I'd get her tested. At least you could close the door to an LD, at most you'd have a diagnosis and could plan from there.

:grouphug:

[Catherine]

I have two math-intuitive children, so when ds #3 came up I was a bit surprised that he is SO not math-intuitive. RS really encourages mental calculation, using the visualized abacus, but only after they have thoroughly learned the shortcuts to knowing the facts within 10.

 

RS also uses games for drill, with some drill sheets later on. Stop and camp out on concepts that cause problems and just play the games, chipping away at understanding. We've sometimes camped out fro weeks, waiting for something to stick. It's fine.

 

Given your daughter's background, you can go quickly through the earlier levels, stopping where she struggles. I will say my son has poor working memory and is V-E-R-Y slow, and that will not change, though we do things to encourage speed. The drill sheets, for example, he can do with excellent accuracy, but taking about 3 times as long as the book suggests for a younger child (argh!) but he simply cannot make his brain work faster.

 

I would try to work with your daughter on her concern about "grade levels". Particularly where math is concerned, moving along without understanding and mastery will only create much greater stress and misery later.

[2cents]

I think that having the math facts committed to memory are vital. That is just my personal finding. Instead of drilling maybe mnemonics and easily memorable 'tricks' are the way to go. You might take some time off of the regular course and check out Math-It (for tricks) and Times Tables. These two programs will help her to visualize the facts rather than strictly memorize numbers and answers. It will also go a long way to helping her make the connections as to how the numbers relate depending on the function. HTHs! Hang in there! :grouphug:

[5LittleMonkeys]

With all you've said, I'd get her tested. At least you could close the door to an LD, at most you'd have a diagnosis and could plan from there.

:grouphug:

 

I have no idea how to even go about doing that. Who do I call?

[snickelfritz]

I don't have real help, but maybe you can tell her this to help her.

 

I went to college on a full scholarship. I have an engineering degree in Biosystems Engineering. I got A's or B's in Calculus 1, Calculus 2, Differential Equations, Linear Algebra, physics 1 and 2, chemistry 1 and 2, Dynamics, Statics, Circuits, Fluid Dynamics, on and on and on.

 

 

I count on my fingers. I use these little dots in numbers that my 1st grade teacher taught us to do (9 has a happy face with 3 dots, count 3 dots down the stem and 3 dots back up) to do my math facts. I don't honestly know my math facts. I am getting better as I teach my kids, but my 7 year old does quicker mental math than I do.

 

Tell her she's not stupid. It will be ok.

:grouphug:

Edited October 28, 2010 by snickelfritz

[Carol in Cal.]

Separate the issues.

 

Quartermile math, every day, for 1/2 hour at first, dropping to 15 minutes once she seems to remember all her math facts. Some kids need constant reinforcement. My DD was one of them. She learned and forgot her math facts repeatedly until I just bit the bullet and made her practice a little bit 6 days per week. She did this through 7th grade. I'm not proud of it, but it worked.

 

Saxon was great for Dd, who could not learn from Harcourt (a mastery program with a lot of progressive problem sets.) I gave her the placement test and believed it. Because it placed her behind grade level, she did 3 books in two school years. This has made her solid in math, and she really appreciates the grounding now that she is in high school.

 

Outcome: Dd finished Saxon Algebra 1 but somehow failed to pass the placement test in high school. I debated whether to force the issue as I knew that she did know the material, and the school is receptive to that kind of thing, but she and I decided together that it would be just fine to take algebra over again. The school recommended Algebra 1 honors, and she is acing it. They also recommended that she concurrently take Geometry honors, which is very unusual there, and she is getting a B--I believe that she can pull that up to a B+.

 

This is a kid who has never consistently done better than 80-85% in math no matter what, so I would say that Saxon prepared her very well for high school, although apparently not for the high school placement test, and that going backwards in Saxon, though difficult to swallow, was the best thing she possibly could have done.

[Carol in Cal.]

With all you've said, I'd get her tested. At least you could close the door to an LD, at most you'd have a diagnosis and could plan from there.

:grouphug:

 

I looked into that, but my resource teacher told me that the test would be on knowledge rather than ability, and that it would not be helpful. I did have DD tested by a vision specialist in case she had a processing problem, and we used PACE for a while based on those results. This helped, I believe, with her ability to keep a complicated problem straight in her head while she worked through multiple steps of it. I STILL have to remind her from time to time that the last step in doing any complicated problem is always to read the problem again and make sure that you have actually finished it.

[johnandtinagilbert]

I'd surely start with an evaluation. I'd phone your pediatrician and get her tested.

 

I'd really focus on getting her past the grade level nonsense. Encourage her perhaps by showing all the things in her life she wouldn't be able to do since she's only a 6th grader.

 

:grouphug: for you. This must be a terrible feeling when you want so deeply to get through to her.

 

RightStart is amazing and has really helped a friend who had a struggling math kiddo but it is a steep investment.

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

I would try to work with your daughter on her concern about "grade levels". Particularly where math is concerned, moving along without understanding and mastery will only create much greater stress and misery later.

 

:iagree:and I am trying. Unfortunately stress and misery have become synonymous with math for her. I have to fix that attitude too.

 

I think that having the math facts committed to memory are vital. :grouphug:

 

I agree with the above and we have tried an tried. I did use a picture math fact program when she was in ps 4th. I don't remember the name of it - she got it through the school. It didn't work then but maybe we could try it again. It won't help her with concepts but it would make things go quicker which would definitely help her attitude.

[Carol in Cal.]

:iagree:and I am trying. Unfortunately stress and misery have become synonymous with math for her. I have to fix that attitude too.

 

 

I suspect that when she becomes proficient her attitude will improve. Sometimes you just have to pull them through that process and keep your fingers crossed (all 10 of them, in a praying position) that it will work out.

 

My DD hated math so much that she wrote essays and poetry about it. I would say, "Write an essay about a strong opinion you have, and back it with three arguments." She would reply, "I feel VERY strongly about hating math and defining it as torture."

 

Now I would not say that she likes it that much, but she is proud of herself for doing as well as she has, and I think that she at least does not hate it or dread it anymore.

[Jenny Piaaree]

I would only add that whatever testing you may do, and whatever program you choose, I would put math on the shelf altogether for a month or so to give everyone a chance to breathe. Then you can slowly add it back in with a fresh(er) start.

[DianeJM]

My 6th grader can be the same way. Sometimes. We are way behind in math right now, but I have a plan for catching up.

 

We switched to MUS last year after starting off 5th w/Saxon which did not work out for us, previously were doing ABeka from K-4th. I started the MUS mid way through 5th when we ditched Saxon, at the level I thought was appropriate, but after a lengthy talk with the MUS rep at the convention I went backwards two full levels. So, it seems like we're in elementary school again. But he is learning it. It's going better. We're progressing.

 

Also, I just learned something that was very helpful for me which also might help you too. I was listening to a convention CD recently, from a neurodevelopmental person named Linda Kane. Her big three things to remember for getting the info to really stick are: 1) frequency; 2) intensity; and 3) duration.

 

Frequency is the number of times you are exposed to the same information, so that would be the drills and flash cards and such. Do it over and over. Repetition is key. Frequency should be precise and specific; it's giving highlights of the information -- the meat, the important things.

 

Intensity is how strong the information is presented. She says to find something in the subject that will turn on the interest of the student — increased interest level will increase the strength of the learning. But even if you can't find a spark to ignite their interest, be sure to make it short and sweet, then stop. She's talking 5-10 minutes for this age level. Sounds crazy, but at that point you haven't totally made them sick of it.

 

Duration has to do with how long over time you keep trying to input the information. Staying at something long enough so that it “gets in there.” Input is key. Keep on inputting -- building that pathway, and finally, one day, it will connect; the brain will finally “get it.”

 

To me, that was revolutionary. I have started doing math that way. And spelling words, and other sort of factual type information.

 

She also said something else that blew me away. If they don't remember how, show them. Show them over and over again, as many times as they need to be shown, and they will eventually remember it. The principle is similar to the "garbage in, garbage out" philosophy -- what you put in will come out. Eventually. Some of us need more input than others.

 

She may have a learning disability; you might want to think about getting an evaluation.

I know the feeling; I have two kids who have had trouble learning, one more than the other.

 

My 6th grader still says he hates math, even though he is experiencing great success (he's scoring consistently in the 90's) and math is certainly not taking a lot of time these days. Maybe he will just always hate math, but I think success after success can't do anything but help and give confidence, even if he never ends up liking the subject.

 

I wish you all the best in finding your direction with this. Keep up the good work! Don't lose heart.

 

Blessings,

[5LittleMonkeys]

I don't have real help, but maybe you can tell her this to help her.

 

I went to college on a full scholarship. I have an engineering degree in Biosystems Engineering. I got A's or B's in Calculus 1, Calculus 2, Differential Equations, Linear Algebra, physics 1 and 2, chemistry 1 and 2, Dynamics, Statics, Circuits, Fluid Dynamics, on and on and on.

 

 

I count on my fingers. I use these little dots in numbers that my 1st grade teacher taught us to do (9 has a happy face with 3 dots, count 3 dots down the stem and 3 dots back up) to do my math facts. I don't honestly know my math facts. I am getting better as I teach my kids, but my 7 year old does quicker mental math than I do.

 

Tell her she's not stupid. It will be ok.

:grouphug:

Thank you for this.

 

Separate the issues.

 

Quartermile math, every day, for 1/2 hour at first, dropping to 15 minutes once she seems to remember all her math facts. Some kids need constant reinforcement. My DD was one of them. She learned and forgot her math facts repeatedly until I just bit the bullet and made her practice a little bit 6 days per week. She did this through 7th grade. I'm not proud of it, but it worked.

 

Saxon was great for Dd, who could not learn from Harcourt (a mastery program with a lot of progressive problem sets.) I gave her the placement test and believed it. Because it placed her behind grade level, she did 3 books in two school years. This has made her solid in math, and she really appreciates the grounding now that she is in high school.

 

Outcome: Dd finished Saxon Algebra 1 but somehow failed to pass the placement test in high school. I debated whether to force the issue as I knew that she did know the material, and the school is receptive to that kind of thing, but she and I decided together that it would be just fine to take algebra over again. The school recommended Algebra 1 honors, and she is acing it. They also recommended that she concurrently take Geometry honors, which is very unusual there, and she is getting a B--I believe that she can pull that up to a B+.

 

This is a kid who has never consistently done better than 80-85% in math no matter what, so I would say that Saxon prepared her very well for high school, although apparently not for the high school placement test, and that going backwards in Saxon, though difficult to swallow, was the best thing she possibly could have done.

 

I will look at Quartermile. I have looked at Saxon in the past; I will look at it again with dd. The last part that I bolded is very important for her to understand. I will have her read this thread so she can see other dc who have struggled and with perseverance and sometimes going backwards, have been able to be successful in math. Thank you.

 

I'd surely start with an evaluation. I'd phone your pediatrician and get her tested.

 

I'd really focus on getting her past the grade level nonsense. Encourage her perhaps by showing all the things in her life she wouldn't be able to do since she's only a 6th grader.

 

:grouphug: for you. This must be a terrible feeling when you want so deeply to get through to her.

 

RightStart is amazing and has really helped a friend who had a struggling math kiddo but it is a steep investment.

 

RightStart is on my "to look at" list. I have heard tons of kuddos about it. I have put off looking at it in the past because of the cost but I'm at the point that I'm willing to pay anything to help dd. This is not good for her self-image and emotional state either. It's more than just not being able to do math. Does that make sense?

[5LittleMonkeys]

I would only add that whatever testing you may do, and whatever program you choose, I would put math on the shelf altogether for a month or so to give everyone a chance to breathe. Then you can slowly add it back in with a fresh(er) start.

 

We have that month coming up. We take off 6 weeks between Thanksgiving and New Year's. I was going to have her doing math during that time but since you have verbally validated my desire to drop math for a while I think I'll take your advice.;)

 

Diane, thank you for that information. I will read back over your thread later when I have more time. I do think she is the type of dc who needs constant repetition, and would benefit from seeing the same information frequently and in ways that make sense to her.

[Ellie]

* Has a lot of difficulty with problems such as - if 8x7=56 then solve 56/y=7. She can figure it out but it takes a while. I wish I could be in her brain when she is thinking because I don't know if she is thinking of what she had for lunch or if she is actually trying to process the information.:confused:

 

*I* would have problems with "56/y=7." Oy!!

 

Surely something that doesn't look like algebra would be better for her, a basic arithmetic like Rod and Staff, for example.

[ElizabethB]

:grouphug:

 

Here's another idea for math facts: let her make her own tables daily and then use them for her work. The table shown here is for multiplication, but she can make one for addition, as well, they are easy to find on the web, or I'm sure you can figure out one on your own.

 

http://www.donpotter.net/PDF/Multiplication%20Matrix.pdf

 

One nice thing about Right Start if you decide to spring for the cost is that it has levels, not grade numbers, so it might not be as intimidating. Also, even in the younger books, it has some higher level geometry that is usually not taught until much later.

[HollyDay]

I'll throw my 2 cents in, but remember what 2 cents is worth :001_smile:

 

I've said it before, math and maturity go hand in hand. She certainly needs to drill the facts and practice the basics of borrowing and carrying. Perhaps it would be best not to move onto anything new until these facts and activities are easy.

 

Word problems are logic problems. If you are not already teaching some logic (like MindBenders, GridPerplexors, LogicLinks), you might want to start. Some games that help develop that logical progression of thought would be chess, Rush Hour, Blockus, and various puzzles.

 

Making Math Meaningful is an interesting math program that teaches the why and progression of math in simple easy steps. The author, David Quine, is very helpful. That might be an option too.

 

Remember this will pass. Your dc will learn math eventually......

[johnandtinagilbert]

Thank you for this.

 

RightStart is on my "to look at" list. I have heard tons of kuddos about it. I have put off looking at it in the past because of the cost but I'm at the point that I'm willing to pay anything to help dd. This is not good for her self-image and emotional state either. It's more than just not being able to do math. Does that make sense?

 

I know just what you mean. I'm currently struggling with attitude and ability here, so while I want to push them to work towards their full potential, I have to be careful not to crush their spirit. It can be exhausting finding balance.

[peacefully]

.

[siloam]

Long winded again, this will be 2 posts. :D

 

I just spent 20 minutes sitting on the couch holding dd11 while she balled about math....She couldn't figure out what operation to use to get the answer. Then after we worked it out with manipulatives she needed to subtract 6 from 8 and she couldn't do it in her head. She sat for a good two minutes holding her head. I kept telling her to use tally marks or count on her fingers but she wouldn't. She said a sixth grader shouldn't have to count on her fingers. She finally ended up using the manipulatives but then burst out into tears.

 

Sounds like recall issues to me, which is very common with the dyslexia family of LD's, specifically dyscalculia here. I had one time in 3rd grade I was trying to teach a concept to Pumpkin. I kept backing down to simpler and simpler terms. Then I asked her what is 1+1 because you couldn't get any simpler than that. She honestly couldn't answer me. She knew she knew it but she couldn't either remember the answer or remember how you go about getting the answer at that moment.

 

In general when a dyslexic has this sort of recall problem they can't get over it either, not without a reset of some sort. With reading it would be starting over at the beginning of the sentence the word was in, or having someone give you the word. In math I generally just give them the answer. It is not an ability issue it is a recall problem. The paths in the brain are just not working correctly at the moment.

 

(((Hugs))) for you and your dd.

 

I don't know what specifically is wrong with her so it is very hard for me to know what program to put her in. Does she have a LD or is it just that she doesn't have a strong enough foundation? How do I determine what the problem is? I really thought MUS was the answer for her because she is very visual but now I'm thinking she may need a spiral method. My gut tells me to go WAY back maybe with MEP or MM and start at the beginning. I had given her some MEP worksheets a while back and she did like them, although she balked at the fact that they were "2nd grade". (She is very hung up on where she "should" be in grade level.)

First of all realize that today is likely just a bad day and tomorrow she may be able to step up and do it all no problem.

 

Second does she use the rods with MUS? If she does have an LD she is going to need to accept a few truths to move forward. First of all that as much as she doesn't like them she NEEDS manipulatives. Second is that going forward when you don't have a solid foundation is going to mean more failure long term. Better she graduates having mastered elementary math only, then she struggles through upper level maths, never doing well and having mastered nothing.

 

My oldest doesn't like manipulatvies either, but we all need them here. When you use multiple senses the brain stores each sense in a different part of the brain. When there is a recall problem, and you have only learned using one sense, then you have no back up. If you have used multiple senses you have a chance that one of the other pathways in your brain will work for you. There are times when they don't, but this is about decreasing the odds of having a problem, and multisensory work does that. Honstly the reason why I chose Right Start over MUS, Shiller or another manipulative based program was because it would be socially acceptable to use an abacus as an adult, even cool because you understand something other people don't. But you might consider just adding an abacus to what ever program you land on. The RS transitions book would be all you need with the abacus to get you prepped to use it with any program.

 

My third question would be does she see numbers/quantities in her mind? One of the huge gaps I found between myself, who is a traditional dyslexic who can't spell and my oldest who has similar math issues but can spell, is that she sees words in her mind and spells from those. I don't. I generally only see pictures. By doing a program called Seeing Stars it has greatly improved my 3rd dd and my spelling as we have built the ability to see quantities in the mind. Conversely while my oldest still struggles, she does great in understanding the concepts behind math especially since we started Right Start. I think the reason why is Right Start begins by working on visualization of quantities, and she needed that. On Cloud Nine is a sister program to Seeing Stars but it works on building the ability to see numbers instead of letters. You shouldn't need the whole program, I only use the manual for Seeing Stars. I just do the exercises with All About Spelling. Thus you should be able to do On Cloud Nine exercises with any math program you use.

 

Continued.....

Edited October 28, 2010 by siloam

[siloam]

Continued from previous post...

 

* She can not retain math facts. There are a few she can recall but never instantly. It takes her a while to pull them out of her brain.

 

We had tried flash cards, Flashmaster and Calculaders before I stared RS, and only the RS games worked for my kids. Again these can be added to any program. I have my kids play one game a day 4 times a week for no more than 15 mins, that is enough to learn them.

 

* When she is doing large addition and subtraction problems she gets bogged down because she has to figure out what 11 - 5 is, then when she gets that answer she has lost her place in the problem and forgets what the next step is. Same thing happens with long division and large multiplication problems.

Right now my 2nd dd has an example of how a multiplication problem works, and how a long division problem works up in front of her as an easy reference, because she forgets. In addition none of my kids do well with making the logical leaps that most people can. For example when dividing 12 into 124 they have to write the 0 above the 1, carry it down, ect.., or they short circuit and can't move forward because they are doubting themselves. Honestly I have days still when I will do the same, and I have to go back to doing all the in between steps. I know I can't always trust myself, so when in doubt, do it the long way.

 

 

* ANY type of word problem stumps her. Her brain freezes up right after she reads the problem. Even something as simple as Jack has 2, Jill has 5 more. How many does Jill have? I even have to help her draw it or set up the manipulatives.

This could be several things. First of all she can be having a panic reaction becuase of bad past experiences, so she freezes and starts having recall issues. That becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and now she can't do it.

 

What I do early on is go to Purple Math and write out 3x5 cards for each operation and their key words. I allow my kids to keep them as a reference as long as they need them.

 

Is she also an auditory learner? I have times with my oldest that we will go back and forth on a problem, for example: She will just write down an answer, which will be wrong, I will send it back to her and tell her to draw it. She will send it back to me and tell me she doesn't know how. I will either give her a note to see me or draw it for her. When I draw it for her some of the times she will get it, but other times she will not. At that point I will set it aside for us to work on. I have to schedule time each week for this, because we always have problems to work on. Of the problems that end up being set aside to work on, about half of them she will be able to work as soon as I read it aloud. She is primarily an auditory learner who is also a hands on learner. I can't get her to read them to her self to date, but it is so frustrating to have it click all of a sudden after we have gone back and forth so much on it. The rest we just work together.

 

 

* Doesn't readily use concepts like - 43+24. Take 40+20 then 3+4 and add those together. She understands once I remind her to do it this way but I have to go over it with her every time. It's not something she ever thinks to do on her own. This is true of any shortcut methods.

 

Keep reminding. They often need to over lean methods over years to truly own them.

 

* Has a lot of difficulty with problems such as - if 8x7=56 then solve 56/y=7. She can figure it out but it takes a while. I wish I could be in her brain when she is thinking because I don't know if she is thinking of what she had for lunch or if she is actually trying to process the information.:confused:

 

If there is an LD most likely it is just taking that long. Think of it as the pathways being cluttered. She knows she should know the answer, but it takes time for her to find it, and the route is often long as she goes through information: how to multiply, how to divide, why is a y in my math problem, and if they use the / instead of a tradition division symbol she also has to sift through fractions and remember how that can show division. It is the scenic route vs. the short cut. They need to go through the process and over time they can shorten the trip.

 

That is all I can think of right now. I am just paralyzed right now. I don't want to keep moving forward but have no idea what program to move to or how far back to go. We have drilled facts until we are both sick of it...I know drilling more isn't the answer. I use MEP with dd7 and, as I said above, I feel MEP might be a good fit but I'm just apprehensive to do anything for fear of making things worse. She already hates math though so I guess it can't get too much worse. If you have a child like this, what is working for you? Is not doing math an option?:tongue_smilie:

I know I have talked up RS, but the one caution I would give is I don't think it has enough written work for LD students. For my kids the RS and Singapore combo is a good fit. Even then I got worried a while ago and had my oldest doing a heavier work load than I knew was good for her (5 pages a day in Singapore), and guess what? She has recall issues with everything we covered then. Now I have her back down to 3 pages a day, and she is making good steady progress. Not fast, but solid.

 

Now it is possible that your dd has some other issue that is not related to dyslexia, or additional issues that complicate things in which case what worked here wouldn't work for you. But some hold true, like mulit sensory learning. The only big thing I have learned over the years, that works with all students, is the be quick to help. It is counter intuitive when you know the child is able, but we all have bad days. Hearing that you are sitting there holding her hand, is a good start. Try not to let her see your frustration, and be quick to grab the manipulatives and SHOW her if she won't do it herself. Have her watch you do it, walk her through it verbally, and just give her the answer some days. The more stressed she feels the more problems she will have, and most of the time she just doesn't have the ability to get out of these corners by herself yet.

 

BTW I also own three math dictionaries (with plans to buy a 4th), so the kids can at any time look up how to do something, what some term means, ect... Those are the sort of tools, with something like an abacus that will give them long term success, but they have to have something or someone to fall back on when they have a bad day.

 

Heather

[forty-two]

Some thoughts:

 

I agree that MEP might be a good fit, as even the early levels have lots of interesting problems (*I* have fun solving y1 problems :tongue_smilie:) - I think it would have a lot more intrinsic interest to a 6th grader than going backwards in most other curricula. And since you said she enjoyed it when she tried it, that might be a good reason to go with it. Completing y6 would have her in a good position for starting algebra - that's just two levels a year to be on track for gr9 algebra if she starts from the very beginning. And MEP is a very meaty program - if she could do it, I think it would benefit her greatly, far more than most other programs.

 

I second the idea of having her build her own tables and then use them as a reference, for as long as she needs them.

 

A thought about RS - maybe the Activities for the Al Ababus book might be sufficient, instead of going with the full program. It would make it easier to park on hard things and fly through what she gets.

 

Good luck! :grouphug:

[Ginevra]

This sounds to me as if math anxiety is present. If there is math anxiety, it can seem daunting, even if logically it's simple, such as thinking 8-6. This probably doesn't help much; you may have no idea why she has math anxiety or how to help her get past it. But I can tell you, I was like this when I was younger. Math problems caused me so much distress, I couldn't seem to relax my mind to whittle away at a problem. This didn't really go away for me until math was not a required part of my life and I could do it by choice. I trained myself, as an adult, to relax in the face of math, so I could think it through enough to solve it. :grouphug:

[5LittleMonkeys]

I was hoping someone would say "Oh yes, this is what is going on and you need to use this to fix it." :tongue_smilie: I know that isn't realistic but boy do I wish it was. This dd takes up so much of my time and energy but I won't give up on her. :D

 

Heather, I just kept shaking my head in agreement through your whole post. I will have to re-read your response a few times to let it all sink in. A lot of what you are saying makes me think you have my dd in your house. The 1+1 question...we have been right there too many times.

 

 

I like so many of the ideas I've read. Yllek, I will check out those book recommendations too. I still am not sure about what curriculum to switch to. I know continuing in MUS is not going to work at this time. If nothing else I feel we need to switch to something new to give dd the sense of a new beginning; a fresh start. Perhaps I will try MEP going all the way back to Yr.2. Adding in RS games and use of the abacus. Times Tales and math fact charts and a file box full of helps\cheats on index cards. MEP is very different from a lot of the other curriculums. It focuses on number relationships and has the student looking at number bonds in many, many different ways. I think what appealed to dd when she did a few of the sheets was that it wasn't page after page of calculations. She thought they were puzzles. The "word" problems aren't written out either. They are discussed verbally during the coarse of the lesson and then are worked out with pictures, number lines or manipulatives. The other benefit of MEP is that it is free which will free up more funds for RS items, games, and some critical thinking books and games.

 

So, how does that sound as a plan? I'm not sure about getting her evaluated. I have mentioned in the past about having her tested and she broke out into a cold sweat. Poor thing...nothing else in her life effects her the way math does. I think we might be done with math until after Christmas. I need some time to formulate a good solid plan and she needs some time to relax.

 

Thank you all so much. Yet again, I'm not sure what I would do without this forum. Any more comments are still welcome...I need all the help with this I can get.:tongue_smilie::D

[johnandtinagilbert]

Heather,

You're amazing as always. I always secretly pray you'll pipe in on these sort of threads.

 

Quick hijack....math dictionaries....that sounds that something I should own. Please advise :D

[msjones]

I don't have time to read all of these replies, so forgive any repetition. I strongly suggest RightStart Math. I have seen and used many different programs and have more success with RightStart than any other.

 

I work with students like your daughter. I usually use RightStart with them and have had outstanding results. I suggest starting with Level B. It may seem too easy and you may worry that you've taken too big a step backward. Don't worry. Level B builds an excellent foundation. Follow the lessons closely, resist any urge to hurry your daughter, and keep it positive.

 

You may want to sit with her and talk about what would make it positive -- give her some control over how math will look. What time of day would she choose? Where to sit? How long would she choose to work at one time? Agree in advance to some of these conditions.

 

Also, I'd stay completely away from word problems at this point. That can come later, when her confidence is up.

 

I haven't used it recently, but the RightStart website has a forum that was very helpful. I had one student who seemed completely stuck (sort of like your daughter) and I got a lot of very helpful ideas from the author herself. She was reading all the posts on the forum at that time and was so supportive and responsive. (I sound like an ad, but no, I don't work for RS!)

 

Good luck to you. It is so hard to see our kids struggle. But, thankfully, since you are homeschooling, you can make adjustments and take as much time as your daughter needs.

[5LittleMonkeys]

I don't have time to read all of these replies, so forgive any repetition. I strongly suggest RightStart Math. I have seen and used many different programs and have more success with RightStart than any other.

 

I work with students like your daughter. I usually use RightStart with them and have had outstanding results. I suggest starting with Level B. It may seem too easy and you may worry that you've taken too big a step backward. Don't worry. Level B builds an excellent foundation. Follow the lessons closely, resist any urge to hurry your daughter, and keep it positive.

 

You may want to sit with her and talk about what would make it positive -- give her some control over how math will look. What time of day would she choose? Where to sit? How long would she choose to work at one time? Agree in advance to some of these conditions.

 

Also, I'd stay completely away from word problems at this point. That can come later, when her confidence is up.

 

I haven't used it recently, but the RightStart website has a forum that was very helpful. I had one student who seemed completely stuck (sort of like your daughter) and I got a lot of very helpful ideas from the author herself. She was reading all the posts on the forum at that time and was so supportive and responsive. (I sound like an ad, but no, I don't work for RS!)

 

Good luck to you. It is so hard to see our kids struggle. But, thankfully, since you are homeschooling, you can make adjustments and take as much time as your daughter needs.

 

Thank you for the good luck wishes. I will look into RightStart in addition to a few other options. I haven't decided definitely to go with MEP. Even if I don't go with the whole RS program I think I am most certainly going to look into the abacus and the games. Thank you for posting your experience. Each time I read someone's response it helps me work through all the ideas swirling through my head.

[skueppers]

* She can not retain math facts. There are a few she can recall but never instantly. It takes her a while to pull them out of her brain.

* When she is doing large addition and subtraction problems she gets bogged down because she has to figure out what 11 - 5 is, then when she gets that answer she has lost her place in the problem and forgets what the next step is. Same thing happens with long division and large multiplication problems.

* Doesn't readily use concepts like - 43+24. Take 40+20 then 3+4 and add those together. She understands once I remind her to do it this way but I have to go over it with her every time. It's not something she ever thinks to do on her own. This is true of any shortcut methods.

 

I don't really have any advice, but I did want to give you some encouragement.

 

I'm good at math. I understand math concepts easily. But all of the above could apply to me.

 

I have a lot of trouble with mental math. I know how to break problems down into simpler parts, but I can't hold all the information in my head at once. By the time I've solved the 3+4 part of the example you gave, I've forgotten what the other part was. And if I can remember it, I will have forgotten the 7 once I've got the other part. I usually have to do the problem three times before I've figured it out; writing it down and solving on paper is much faster. I practice these kinds of problems when playing board games every week, and have for years, so I don't think it's a practice issue.

 

I'm 40 years old, and I still can't really remember basic math facts. There are certain multiplication facts I can only recall immediately if I practice them at least twice a week. I always think of 6x7, for example, as "6x6 is 36, 42." I often "count on" when doing simple addition.

 

I proceed methodically and write a lot of notes on paper when doing any kind of complicated problem.

 

I think being able to remember math facts and do mental math is very useful, but not being able to doesn't mean you're bad at math. She might benefit from finding SOME method that works for her for each type of problem, and focus on getting really good at that. A person doesn't actually need five methods for division, if they are good at ONE method that works every time.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Check out discalculia

[MissKNG]

Awwww.....:grouphug:

 

Just another encouragement post...

 

Me - Graduated Cum Laude in Finance

Me - Die hard finger counter:D

[Mommyfaithe]

I just spent 20 minutes sitting on the couch holding dd11 while she balled about math. My heart is broken for her. She had just done a page of figuring common factors (it went slow but she did it all without using her chart or calculator) and after a short break she moved on to a word problem that required she add two fractions. She couldn't figure out what operation to use to get the answer. Then after we worked it out with manipulatives she needed to subtract 6 from 8 and she couldn't do it in her head. She sat for a good two minutes holding her head. I kept telling her to use tally marks or count on her fingers but she wouldn't. She said a sixth grader shouldn't have to count on her fingers. She finally ended up using the manipulatives but then burst out into tears.

 

I don't know what specifically is wrong with her so it is very hard for me to know what program to put her in. Does she have a LD or is it just that she doesn't have a strong enough foundation? How do I determine what the problem is? I really thought MUS was the answer for her because she is very visual but now I'm thinking she may need a spiral method. My gut tells me to go WAY back maybe with MEP or MM and start at the beginning. I had given her some MEP worksheets a while back and she did like them, although she balked at the fact that they were "2nd grade". (She is very hung up on where she "should" be in grade level.)

 

Uh, I'm rambling. I will list the problems she has and maybe someone could tell me how I need to proceed.

 

* She can not retain math facts. There are a few she can recall but never instantly. It takes her a while to pull them out of her brain.

* When she is doing large addition and subtraction problems she gets bogged down because she has to figure out what 11 - 5 is, then when she gets that answer she has lost her place in the problem and forgets what the next step is. Same thing happens with long division and large multiplication problems.

* ANY type of word problem stumps her. Her brain freezes up right after she reads the problem. Even something as simple as Jack has 2, Jill has 5 more. How many does Jill have? I even have to help her draw it or set up the manipulatives.

* Doesn't readily use concepts like - 43+24. Take 40+20 then 3+4 and add those together. She understands once I remind her to do it this way but I have to go over it with her every time. It's not something she ever thinks to do on her own. This is true of any shortcut methods.

* Has a lot of difficulty with problems such as - if 8x7=56 then solve 56/y=7. She can figure it out but it takes a while. I wish I could be in her brain when she is thinking because I don't know if she is thinking of what she had for lunch or if she is actually trying to process the information.:confused:

 

That is all I can think of right now. I am just paralyzed right now. I don't want to keep moving forward but have no idea what program to move to or how far back to go. We have drilled facts until we are both sick of it...I know drilling more isn't the answer. I use MEP with dd7 and, as I said above, I feel MEP might be a good fit but I'm just apprehensive to do anything for fear of making things worse. She already hates math though so I guess it can't get too much worse. If you have a child like this, what is working for you? Is not doing math an option?:tongue_smilie:

 

I DO have a child like this and YES, it is terribly frustrating...I did take a few months off of "math" and we went over basics....I gave her a chart of her facts and I let her use it whenever she needed it. The chart included equivalent measures too.

 

I then switched over to CLE math at a year below her grade level. It was a challenge...BUT the first unit of each year reviews all the previous years work. This was wonderful for me to fill in her gaps. I broke out all our manipulatives and used them with every lesson in the beginning. I set the timer and only worked on math for 45 minutes a day. When the timer went off, we moved on to our next subject and then picked up where we left off the next day.

 

y the end of last year, she tested into the high 90 percentiles in math for her grade level....the previous year she tested in the 50th . She is still allowed to use her chart whenever she needs it, but uses it very rarely now. Mostly, I think she gained the confidence she needed to tackle some of the hard stuff. She doesn't think she "stinks at math" anymore.

 

Oh, I also read all I could get my hands on about teaching math.....Li Ping Ma's book was especially helpful as were my BJU teacher manuals that I bought used...cheap! I had to teach myself how to teach math...I needed my own confidence.

 

Also, I don't really think the program matters all that much...I think the teaching end of it...teaching for understanding...really matters. The only way I could do that was to finally understand math myself....

 

Good Luck!

Faithe

[walkermamaof4]

I'm not sure that it will help you to know exactly what the LD is, if indeed there is a genetic cause for the struggles she is having. My oldest dd has Fragile X Syndrome and, for a female, is significantly impacted. She cannot consistently add and does math at a K-1st grade level. My 10 y.o. dd also has Fragile X Syndrome, but bc/ this syndrome is masked by the "good" x chromosome at different levels in different people, you would never know that she has it and very few people in our lives are aware that she does. Fragile X in girls is very often overlooked but extremely common. It is the #1 cause of genetic mental retardation in boys but usually in girls its effect is only seen in social skills and in math. Usually the girl will have ears that stick out, but not always. Most doctors never catch it in girls and we only knew bc/ my nephew (as are most boys with FRAX) is severely retarded and was found to have Fragile X, so we soon learned that I was a carrier and then that the baby I was carrying was affected and later that our 2nd dd also was affected.

 

All of that to say in way of a long-winded intro, for my dd that does math at a 1st grade level, I think we would have been extremely frustrated in 1st and 2nd grade but by 3rd or so would have headed to testing. However, with dd#2 had we known nothing about Frax, we would have simply thought we had a very non-mathy kid! Yet, because we do know she has Frax, we realize WHY she struggles so in math, but not really how to fix this.

 

My point here is that I am unsure that knowing why your dd struggles will get you anywhere. Ultimately it sounds like she is having some kind of brain/synapse issues where info is really not quickly traveling. But I don't think anyone has found the one true program for these kids. It is so hard to keep them at grade level or to know how far they will get, but we all keep trying!

 

We've tried every math program out there. We've started back with the 1st grade level and had her move through many levels of several programs. Our most recent try is to have her work through R&S 1 through 4. When done, we realized she wasn't getting concepts but was really just memorizing techniques and we moved her to MM and lots of Singapore bar drawing practice. I had her start in MM3 (having completed R&S4) and wish now that we had started in 2. She just is missing things that were covered in 2. She made it through MM3 this summer and finished MM4A yesterday. But the truth is, she really can't do it alone. I am spoon feeding her every bite! I have RS and probably need to get out B and work through it slowly with her. She did B a year ago and games too but I put her back in R&S in an effort to move her forward at grade level. Not so bright of me. Ugh.

 

She really can't decide what operation is required in word problems but can do the mechanics if I draw the bar and walk her through the concepts each time. She has made lots of progress and will probably place at a 3rd grade level still but should be in 5th. She's done more math than anyone I know her age. I am so glad she at least likes MM!

 

All of this to say, testing might not really open up doors for you. It might identify why she struggles, but not how to fix it. Touchmath might help her learn her facts, but the RS suggestion is a good one. My dd learned her facts using the MUS site's drill game. She did a fact set each day until she scored a 20, then moved to the next one once she could repeat the 20. She still uses her fingers though on 2 digit numbers. She can't see to count up in her head. Feel free to pm me, but I don't know that i can help at all! I just wanted to say that a diagnosis doesn't always provide all of the answers. We're still really struggling with how to teach. I took graduate level differential equations while getting my phD, and my son without Frax can whiz through math mentally. I just wish I knew how to teach my dd's!

 

Now to go back and absorb Heather's posts...

 

:grouphug:

[5LittleMonkeys]

Me - Graduated Cum Laude in Finance

Me - Die hard finger counter:D

 

:lol: That is very encouraging. I will let dd know.

 

I'm not directing this at you specifically MissKNG but just wanted to clarify:

 

I don't want anyone to think I am beating this poor girl over the head with math. I would be perfectly fine with her counting on her fingers to do math if she was fine with it. I have asked her to count on her fingers, use a chart, use a calculator, count the grey hairs on my head, etc. She is frustrated that she has to resort to doing those things. She doesn't understand WHY she knows something one day and not the next. I've talked to her about LDs and about how they do not define a person. How many people with LDs become very successful in fields that are heavy in skills that the person struggles with. She says she understands but that it doesn't change the fact that it frustrates her now, and that those people must not hate math the way she does.:glare:

 

She is at the point now that she doesn't want to put anymore effort into math than she has to because she has convinced herself that she will never be good at it and that it will always be a frustration for her. When I talk to her about going back and working at a "different" level so that she can build up her foundational knowledge, she gets upset because she knows "different" level means going backwards. She is very stubborn, and, as any who have read my posts about her in the past know, very emotional. She struggles to move forward but in her mind that is easier than going back. I can't let her make that decision. I believe she is of two minds when it comes to math. Some days she is persistent and will stick with something until she gets it and gets very frustrated when she can't, and then some days she just wants it over with. On one hand the crying and expressions of frustration are obvious signals that she wants\needs help. On the other hand, when faced with the prospect of going back to the beginning and having to endure all of that math over again, she balks and says she doesn't want to do it. As I said, the decision has to be mine.

 

Again, thanks for the help and the encouragement.

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

All of this to say, testing might not really open up doors for you. It might identify why she struggles, but not how to fix it.

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure this is the conclusion dh and I have come to. I think I would proceed with the same plans and methods whether I found out she did or didn't. Thank you for your post though. Your devotion to your dc is inspiring.

 

The thing that is really hitting home with me after reading many of these posts is how much more of an emotional and time commitment I am going to have to muster up. I won't deny that there have been times in the last 2 1/2 years that I have thrown my hands in the air and just had to walk away. You can't tell me what 10-5 is? Are you kidding me? I had no idea that math specific LDs even existed. I was blaming it all on the ps teachers.:lol: I feel horrid about the first 6-8 months of h'sing this child in math. Oh, I cringe just thinking about it. I have become educated though and have tried very hard to be patient. I have a way to go though before I can admit to being as devoted to teaching this child math as some of you have been with your own dc with LDs. I'll get there though. You ALL inspire me.

[Corraleno]

I'm pretty sure this is the conclusion dh and I have come to. I think I would proceed with the same plans and methods whether I found out she did or didn't.

Actually I found the testing to be extremely helpful, even though I had always known what the larger issues were (dyslexia, attention issues, and SPD). The test results that surprised me were serious deficits in processing speed and working memory — exactly the sort of problems that would make math (especially word problems) so difficult. This is how his brain works when he's faced with a complicated word problem:

 

(1) Read the problem and try to "translate" it into numbers.

(2) While keeping those numbers in your head (and imagine yourself trying to remember an important phone number while 3 people are talking to you at once and the doorbell is ringing while you root around in your purse for a pen and paper to write it down), try to figure out the operation you're supposed to do.

(3) Keeping all those things in your head, frantically wrack your brain looking for the answer to the multiplication/division/whatever problem. Finally retrieve the fact that 7 x 8 = 56, and then..... realize you've forgotten what the original problem was.

(4) Find the problem on the page again, reread it, remember what you're supposed to be doing, and frantically try to grab ahold of that math fact just before it slips away again. Write down the partial answer.

(5) Reread the problem and figure out the next thing you have to do in the problem. Lather/rinse/repeat.

(6) Do that 10 or 15 times in a row, with different problems, then collapse in a frustrated, teary, exhausted heap.

 

This is how DS describes trying to remember math facts: "It's like all the answers are in my brain, but each answer is on a separate scrap of paper, and the scraps are scattered all over the floor, and there's a little man running around in a panic trying to find the right one."

 

Your DD needs to understand that it's absolutely not true that "no 6th grader should have to use a chart or fingers" or whatever. Tell her that Benoit Mandebrot, the "father of fractal geometry" never learned his times tables above 5. My DH is terrible at basic arithmetic, but great a calculus. It has nothing to do with intelligence. It's just a different way of processing information. Some kids have quick athletic reflexes and some don't; some kids have quick math reflexes and some don't. It's not a big deal. Trouble with math facts is very common — even among truly brilliant people (some of them mathematicians!). Using a chart is perfectly fine and is exactly what was recommended to me by DS's tester. His math fact recall has actually improved enormously as a result of using the chart. For some people, using the facts in context makes them easier to remember than trying to memorize them in a separate, disconnected way.

 

I would really recommend testing to find out exactly what you're dealing with, so you can specifically target the areas where she needs help. My DS finished 4th grade in PS more than a grade level behind in math and was totally convinced he was stupid and would never understand math, no matter what. It's still not his favorite subject, and he still struggles with processing speed and working memory, but he does understand it now (we use Math Mammoth). He'll be starting Algebra this year in 7th, which is a pretty big leap considering he was at a 3rd grade level a little over 2 years ago.

 

Jackie

[5LittleMonkeys]

Actually I found the testing to be extremely helpful, even though I had always known what the larger issues were (dyslexia, attention issues, and SPD). The test results that surprised me were serious deficits in processing speed and working memory — exactly the sort of problems that would make math (especially word problems) so difficult. This is how his brain works when he's faced with a complicated word problem:

 

(1) Read the problem and try to "translate" it into numbers.

(2) While keeping those numbers in your head (and imagine yourself trying to remember an important phone number while 3 people are talking to you at once and the doorbell is ringing while you root around in your purse for a pen and paper to write it down), try to figure out the operation you're supposed to do.

(3) Keeping all those things in your head, frantically wrack your brain looking for the answer to the multiplication/division/whatever problem. Finally retrieve the fact that 7 x 8 = 56, and then..... realize you've forgotten what the original problem was.

(4) Find the problem on the page again, reread it, remember what you're supposed to be doing, and frantically try to grab ahold of that math fact just before it slips away again. Write down the partial answer.

(5) Reread the problem and figure out the next thing you have to do in the problem. Lather/rinse/repeat.

(6) Do that 10 or 15 times in a row, with different problems, then collapse in a frustrated, teary, exhausted heap.

 

This is how DS describes trying to remember math facts: "It's like all the answers are in my brain, but each answer is on a separate scrap of paper, and the scraps are scattered all over the floor, and there's a little man running around in a panic trying to find the right one."

 

Your DD needs to understand that it's absolutely not true that "no 6th grader should have to use a chart or fingers" or whatever. Tell her that Benoit Mandebrot, the "father of fractal geometry" never learned his times tables above 5. My DH is terrible at basic arithmetic, but great a calculus. It has nothing to do with intelligence. It's just a different way of processing information. Some kids have quick athletic reflexes and some don't; some kids have quick math reflexes and some don't. It's not a big deal. Trouble with math facts is very common — even among truly brilliant people (some of them mathematicians!). Using a chart is perfectly fine and is exactly what was recommended to me by DS's tester. His math fact recall has actually improved enormously as a result of using the chart. For some people, using the facts in context makes them easier to remember than trying to memorize them in a separate, disconnected way.

 

I would really recommend testing to find out exactly what you're dealing with, so you can specifically target the areas where she needs help. My DS finished 4th grade in PS more than a grade level behind in math and was totally convinced he was stupid and would never understand math, no matter what. It's still not his favorite subject, and he still struggles with processing speed and working memory, but he does understand it now (we use Math Mammoth). He'll be starting Algebra this year in 7th, which is a pretty big leap considering he was at a 3rd grade level a little over 2 years ago.

 

 

 

Jackie

 

Thank you Jackie, I remember you posting regarding your son before in another thread. I think it was one about MEP. Anyway I tried to find it because I remembered that the way you described your son was almost identical to my dd. I will discuss an evaluation more with dh. We haven't made any final decisions. Could you tell me what type of testing I should be asking for? I'm really very ignorant about this; should I start by calling my pediatrician or the ps?

 

Edited to add: I don't know if you read through all of this thread, specifically where I mentioned thinking about using MEP with dd. Did you use MEP with this son or just MM? My thoughts were to possibly take her back to MEP Yr2 and supplement with RS games and critical thinking games. Do you have any thoughts on that combination? I've also been looking at MM the last few weeks and it has piqued my interest too. What are your thoughts on a starting level for MM?

Edited October 29, 2010 by 5LittleMonkeys

[mcconnellboys]

I would drop back and just begin drilling math facts: addition and subtraction first until she's faster at them, then adding in multiplication and division. I would use Holey Cards and other things that are not grade specific so that she doesn't feel as if she's doing something below her age level. When those facts are strong, then I'd move into multiple digit work in each area before moving on to factors, fractions, etc.

[Guest]

My oldest son is 14. He 'should' be starting high school. Guess what? He is REPEATING CLE 400 math. He struggles with it. I would highly suggest CLE. We tried MUS and it was a disaster. TouchMath is is best friend. Sounds like she may have dysgraphia..math dyslexia. Get her tested, and switch programs.

[walkermamaof4]

Jackie -

Can you tell us how you use MM with your ds? What I mean is, we switched to using it plus a page of MEP a day. We were doing MM overkill I fear. It helped a lot. We really like it. But, she has gotten to the place where she once again can do none of it alone. She can't recall things like 2-1/2x2000 is not 4000-1/2. So application of previously learned concepts is missing. I was thinking we'd slow way down and use RS B and games plus do MM at a normal pace. But maybe we should back up and do a previous level of MM until she has mastered it, since really I am spoon feeding her every piece at this point. I could even have her work from MM2 and just use it to check where she is unable to do the work entirely alone, moving along until I see where she has troubles and then hanging out there.

 

Any advice? Should I do a S/O thread or will this help 5LittleMonkeys too?

[MissKNG]

I'm not directing this at you specifically MissKNG but just wanted to clarify:

 

.

 

For the record, I didn't think any of that. I just wanted to point out that finger counting isn't the end of the world!!! People CAN do well without knowing the "Singapore way" or all that mental math stuff people deem to be sooo important.

Edited October 29, 2010 by MissKNG

[snickelfritz]

Your DD needs to understand that it's absolutely not true that "no 6th grader should have to use a chart or fingers" or whatever. Tell her that Benoit Mandebrot, the "father of fractal geometry" never learned his times tables above 5. My DH is terrible at basic arithmetic, but great a calculus. It has nothing to do with intelligence. It's just a different way of processing information. Some kids have quick athletic reflexes and some don't; some kids have quick math reflexes and some don't. It's not a big deal.

 

This really is more for generic info to tell your daughter, if appropriate. But, there really does come a time in math where you can use a calculator. It's why a person, who doesn't know their addition facts (me) can do calculus.

 

I filled out a form for something and it had a birthdate (not my child, but a 12 year old.) I needed to know the age and I looked at the birthdate and blanked. The person standing by me finally said the age. I cannot hold numbers in my head to do a long computation (and, apparently, 1998 to now is a long computation.) My older dd takes after dh, who is OCD about converting units into metric....mentally....in about 2 seconds. So, I do lots of mental math with her. Then, she has to explain to me how she did it.:tongue_smilie: I also can't remember phone numbers. Or addresses. Or any other string of numbers. I write them down.

 

I made my husband figure tips in restaurants, until he showed me a shortcut to estimate it. Take 10% (and I usually just look at the first number) and double. Bump it up $.50 if there were straggler numbers after the first one in the total. tongue_smilie: Then, I use the receipt and pen to painstakingly add each column, with remainders marked:)

 

Do I wish I was better at mental math? Yes. But, in 34 years, I've learned ways to compensate. I estimate a lot. I round prices up to estimate tax and make sure I have enough cash (a lot easier to add 4+3, than to remember $3.35 and $2.78.) I use the calculator on my phone. I use my fingers.

Edited October 29, 2010 by snickelfritz

[Paintedlady]

To the op, our dd's sound the same. My dd is dyslexic/dysgraphic and struggles with all the same things. I don't have any additional suggestions for you but just wanted you to know you're not alone. Math (and reading/writing/spelling) are tough and we just keep at it, day after day, methodically working towards mastery. :grouphug:

 

I also appreciate all the great resources suggested in this thread. I know about a lot of them but there are a few gems that I wasn't aware of that I'm going to implement. Thanks so much!

[Jann in TX]

My oldest dd has some unique LD's. She has a normal IQ--no ADD or ADHD--but she has definite processing issues--especially when it comes to math or just about any multiple step process (including driving directions--currently our family bane!). Her processing errors are generalized enough that she cannot be classified as having the more specific discalculia (she has a good friend with this--it is OBVIOUS).

 

DD was OK with simple addition and subtraction when she was little--but she never really had them memorized. She was NOT able to memorize her multiplication and division facts (and we tried just about everything).

 

I had the benefit of prior teaching experience with special ed students--so that helped keep MY frustration level down (most of the time)...even so I tried the 'switch curriculum yet again' approach... it ended up being a waste of time and money--and confused dd even more!

 

DD had the most success with Saxon (she used ABeka level 3 for 4th grade and it was fine too) in the lower and middle elementary years---with so many problem types on a page she at least had success with SOMETHING every day.

 

By 6th grade dd pretty much lost all of her ability to recall ANY math fact. Puberty was interfering with what little logic she had (during puberty the logic centers of the brain are shut down/slowed down to conserve resources during a time of growth and hormonal change).

 

My dd DID have the ability to remember songs and poems (rote memorization) so we switched gears and spent some time reviewing skip counting--we did VERY little actual math problems this year.

 

In 7th and 8th grades dd was ready to go back to a math text. She worked through Saxon 7/6--she relied on charts and occasionally her fingers--AND she learned how to use the skip counting to access multiplication and division answers quickly. If she was asked 'what is 8 times 7' she would quickly count by 8s (her favorite rhythm)--as long as she did not try to THINK about what 8 times 7 really meant (again rote memorization) her brain did not get gunked up. It took almost 2 years to work through this program SLOWLY--- and some days we just did not do math---or maybe just 2-3 problems.

 

The last part of 8th grade she was finally ready to USE the different strategies and she began Pre-Algebra. Saxon no longer worked for her--too many big jumps and directions... so we switched to Lial's Basic College Math. I kept any lessons VERY short and she worked problems a few at a time-- I had to remain calm even when she came up to me crying--Mom---what is a 'Frack-T-on' I've NEVER seen them before..." I took a deep breath and drew a circle and in a few minutes she was back to adding and multiplying fractions... 2 steps forward 1-2 steps back...

 

It took her 2 years to complete Algebra 1 and another 2 years to complete Algebra 2 (we stayed with Lial). By this time she was 19 and we 'graduated her from homeschool'.

 

By 19 she had gained a bit more logic--and her math background was finally firm. She aced her CC college math class---and is currently and HONORS student (she even made a high A in Sociology!).

 

My dd is an artist--she is very right brained. She still has processing errors--and is quite the 'air head' at times... but she had grown into a wonderful-unique young woman!

[maryanne]

First of all, hugs to you. I hope in all of this you are able to find something that helps.

 

I've skimmed through all of the responses and I didn't see anyone mention Touch Math. Now, this is not a program I have any experience with. I only saw a presentation on it at a homeschool support group meeting several years ago. My impression at the time was that it was a crutch that allows students to avoid memorizing their math facts, but if you have already done everything you can to memorize the facts without success this might be just the thing to get over the hurdle. In a way it is like relying on your fingers, but far more powerful and sophisticated.

 

http://www.touchmath.com/

 

Hope this helps,

[snickelfritz]

http://www.touchmath.com/

 

THIS is what I do. :). After 30 years, my dots aren't exactly the same. But that's it. I only learned it in 1 grade, so I only use it to add and subtract.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

First of all, hugs to you. I hope in all of this you are able to find something that helps.

 

I've skimmed through all of the responses and I didn't see anyone mention Touch Math. Now, this is not a program I have any experience with. I only saw a presentation on it at a homeschool support group meeting several years ago. My impression at the time was that it was a crutch that allows students to avoid memorizing their math facts, but if you have already done everything you can to memorize the facts without success this might be just the thing to get over the hurdle. In a way it is like relying on your fingers, but far more powerful and sophisticated.

 

http://www.touchmath.com/

 

Hope this helps,

I would only use touch math with a child that has diagnosed learning disabilities that prevent them from being able to add/subtract (touch math leaves the child stuck at counting). As someone who was taught touch math instead of addition/subtraction I consider it abuse when taught to a child who can add/subtract. I have strong opinions about it ;):lol:

[swainsonshawk]

 

For some people, using the facts in context makes them easier to remember than trying to memorize them in a separate, disconnected way.

 

Jackie

 

I absolutely agree with this statement. My son is a better global thinker than a parts to whole thinker. My husband (who has his exact learning style) suggested that I "give him a chart" and stop worrying about whether or not he learns his facts right now. My son eventually memorized them through practice in context.

 

Also, there are two different problems you are dealing with here: the inability to recall math facts, and the inability to think mathematically. If you gave her a calculator or a chart of the facts, could you work on the rest of her math anxiety?

 

Becky

[Leav97]

Word problems require a set of skills from math, logic and strategy. You might want to look at Challenging word problems by Singapore. I would start with level 1. The math portion would be easy (single digit addition and subtraction) which would allow you to focus on the logic and strategy.

 

If your younger child is using MEP and she has problems with the grade level, I wouldn't use MEP. She might see it as a conformation that she isn't good at math. I would look towards a program that doesn't have a grade level or where the grade level can be hidden. Like Miquon, MM, or maybe even Saxon. I think going backwards and covering the same material with a different program would be a very good idea. If you can get a sample of various programs, she maybe able to help you find a program that uses explanations that make sense to her. Sometimes having things explained in a different way can make all of the difference. Sometime going back to an "old" concept and covering it again after working on other things can help.

 

Understanding the material is the best way to build confidence.

Edited October 29, 2010 by Leav97

[siloam]

Heather,

You're amazing as always. I always secretly pray you'll pipe in on these sort of threads.

 

Quick hijack....math dictionaries....that sounds that something I should own. Please advise :D

 

Aww thanks, Tina. :blush:

 

Right now I own The Usborne Illustrated Dictionary of Math

Math Dictionary for Kids

Chenier's Practical Math Dictionary

 

 

The Usborne books is full color and well laid out. They will do things like highlight the decimal point in the decimal section to show it being carried down. You can beat the visuals in this book. The only down side is that you have to look up topics in the index or TOC.

 

The Math Dictionary for Kids is two colored, though they make as much use of those two colors as possible by using multiple shades of those colors. The visual isn't as stunning as the Usborne book, but at still well done. This one makes a better quick reference because everything is listed in alphabetical order within their bigger sub headings: Whole numbers, geometry, measurement, statistics and the heading: decimals, fractions, percents and ratio.

 

The last does cover simpler concepts but the focus really is on upper level math. Haven't got to use it much.

 

The other one I will buy is the other Usborne Math book that covers only lower level concepts.

 

I haven't settled on any other upper level dictionaries yet. The one I have does a great job of showing you how to do things step by step, but you are going to have to look it up in the TOC. I also want one that is alphabetical and right now this one is the top in the running, but I would prefer something with more illustrations.

 

Heather