Thoughts on 'The Community College Fad'

[homeschoolally]

Got this email yesterday. We have a son doing CC classes now so I'm not bashing them at all or questioning anyone who does.

 

I'm just looking for some thoughts from other homeschoolers as I think through this. She brings up some valid points, especially considering many of us have our young teenagers enrolled in CC classes.

 

On the other hand, I really want to ignore this because I'd finally settled in on the idea of doing dual-enrollment.

 

I will say from our personal experience, I can see how some of these things have occurred. In a 'Study Skills' my son took through the CC, there was an entire section in the book devoted to sex ed/birth control issues. I can also see how, in an effort to engage students, they'd use these sexual examples listed in the article.

 

I'd love to hear thoughts from some of you about it. These are difficult things to think through and I'd appreciate hearing what you guys think.

 

September 2010

by Lee Binz

The HomeScholar

 

Arm Yourself with Knowledge

 

When I speak to groups, I sometimes express my dissatisfaction with dual enrollment in community college. Extremely popular with homeschoolers, I often get asked why I am hesitant about such programs and the current trend.

 

 

“Rated R” Environment

 

In my own experience, and in talking with other parents, I have determined that community college is a “Rated R” environment. With careful control or the curriculum and selection of the teachers, it is still an “adult” situation.

 

Professors at these schools have told me that they use the “sex sells” approach. In a high school, although there are many issues, there are generally limits to the use of inappropriate material to sell their educational product. There are no such limits in a community college. Community colleges are meant to be an adult environment. They cater to the broad expanse of adults, not the unique subset of homeschool young adults who don’t want to mix education with unrelated material.

 

Community college will provide the socialization you normally see in a public high school. Because they are public institutions, community colleges come complete with all the “public school” worldview and academics - which is often the reason many homeschoolers avoid public school in the first place.

 

I know that I have a very unique perspective on community college, and I don’t think for a minute that my view is right and others are wrong. Community college is a current fad in homeschooling, and my job is to provide information. I want to provide both sides of the full story so that parents can make a wise choice based on what they know about their own children. Armed with this knowledge you can avoid the lemming mentality, and make choices with your eyes wide open. Parents are the best people to make these choices, and my job is to open the discussion. I see parents feeling pressured to put their children into dual enrollment in high school. I’m trying to remove that pressure, so that people can make judgments based on their understanding of the situation, and not do it just because other people are doing it.

 

 

Our Community College Stories

 

My children attended community college for one year, during their last year before the university. These are our experience with a local community college.

 

 

• The student bookstore sold pornographic magazines next to the engineering textbooks.
  
• The calculus professor dropped the f-bomb in every sentence. We were able to choose a professor that was a homeschool graduate. He even came to our own graduation celebration, and he wrote a fabulous letter of recommendation for my children.
  
• The physics professor used marital positions to describe physics principles. As luck would have it, we were assigned to a different professor.
  
• In the Music Improvisation class the books said, “I capitalize the word ‘Self’ because I was taught to capitalize the name of God, and only God can create music.” The class included a mantra each day, “I am Good, I am Great, I am God.” We declined to take that class.
  
• The French teacher showed movies with unclothed people to demonstrate the culture.
  
• The speech teacher and the curriculum were great, but one of the other students did a speech on the religion of sex that was eye-opening.
  
• The Political Science class was taught by a self-proclaimed Marxist.
  
• My students were well prepared for college. Within the first 2 weeks of community college, they had done all the reading and completed all the assignments they could. They spent the remaining 6 weeks learning how to do nothing and get A’s without trying.
  
• We couldn’t find many classes that would challenge my sons and at the same time not offend our faith. My political science aficionado ended up taking only engineering science and math classes. I’m certainly glad he was able to tolerate differential equations!
  
• On the bright side, the community college did have an honors program. With additional coursework you could get “honors” with each course. That seemed to help the academic level slightly, but it still did not bring it up to the difficulty level of our homeschool.
  
• We noticed that for the first time, my children encountered people who didn’t want to learn. Some students felt that a 0.7 GPA was a passing grade and that receiving a 2.0 in a class was “good.” Many students didn’t show up for class, or didn’t participate in classroom discussion even when they knew the answer.
  
• I go to a lot of college fairs. One community college representative took me aside and said, “Please tell homeschoolers not to send their children to community college! We have adjudicated people in the classes!” She said that felons, and registered offenders were known to be on campus, and she worried about innocent homeschoolers. . I’m sure the criminal element is relatively rare (although how would we know?) but the point is still important.
  

Stories from Jen

 

My friend Jen in Texas has given me permission to use her story about community college. Her daughter took an art class. She wrote to me:

 

 

My daughter just started attending the local community college this week. Already she has an assignment from her Art Appreciation professor that has me wondering what colleges are teaching these days. *rolling eyes*

 

A piece of paper was passed around the class with a list of two items to compare. They were to choose one set and are to write a paper. My daughter saw the word “chapel” and picked it, although she didn’t know what the other word was.

 

 

 

We now know that it’s a series of “art” (cough-cough) films called the “Cremaster Cycle.” She and I have seen the trailer, and both of us have found it to be offensive. The artist based his work on a specific muscle of the male anatomy, and the whole movie is bizarre representations of the reproductive systems. Plus, there are some gruesome death scenes too. We saw all this during just the 5 minute trailer!

 

 

 

She’s said that she’s going to talk with her professor about picking a different group to compare. I pray that the teacher is understanding and won’t give my daughter a hard time. I know that “art” is subjective, but SHEESH! ~ Jen in Texas

Jen was extremely surprised that this could happen at a community college in her area, because they live in the middle an area that is very much the conservative Bible-belt region.

 

 

 

continued next post--too large for one

Edited September 3, 2010 by homeschoolally

[homeschoolally]

Being forewarned is not enough. Linda heard me speak at a College Fair and was well aware of the risks. Last fall she sent me this note,

 

 

 

Two weeks into our 16 year old daughter's first quarter at community college, two pornographic reading assignments were handed out in her required English class. I knew from prior discussions with you that dual enrollment was risky. However, I thought that if we were "selective" in the classes we took, we could avoid the problems you had warned me about. We are looking for alternatives at this time.†Now her daughter is faced with a permanent academic record that may include a withdrawal or failing grade, and the parents are considering their next steps.

 

 

 

~Linda in Washington

It’s not Naiveté

 

I do not believe that the experience at community college is only a problem with very young students, and I don’t believe it has anything to do with naiveté in general. Read this mother’s blog post.

 

 

 

Now the bad news. There are no morals, no discipline, and evolution and political correctness reigns supreme. The students in the classes were very disrespectful. I could not believe how much they mouthed off to the teachers. In my algebra class, students would say, “I hate your teaching.†“You are the worst teacher.†etc. In speech class, one student offered to pay for the exam ahead of time. Cheating was rampant. If you want to pass without studying, I suppose it’s possible. Students were programming answers in their calculators, getting up to “go to the bathroom†during the exams, and the math teacher even left the classroom while we were taking an exam!

 

 

 

As far as sending your kids to these colleges, all I can say is that you better be sure that your child is real grounded in the Word. That they have more than a head knowledge of God and that they are determined to live by His principles. If not, you are sending your child into a war zone without weapons. It was bad in my day (1960?s) but today, it’s unbelievably worse. In the 60?s, at least there were some morals left. Today, there are none. I was talking with one little girl who was programming her calculator with answers to the Algebra quiz. She offered to program mine since I didn’t know how to do it. When I said that I couldn’t sleep at night if I did that, she answered very sincerely, “It’s not really cheating. I’m only taking this course because it’s required. It’s different if it’s your major.†She was sincere in her answer and believed that that was ok!

 

~Cindy Downes blog post “

My First Expose of College

â€

Cindy is neither a young student, nor is she naive, and yet she had issues and unique difficulties. The stories we hear about homeschoolers going to college are the same stories we would hear if our adult friends were going to community college. It’s not the children, it’s the environment.

 

Another mother reported that her local Christian college does not accept community college writing courses at all. They believe report that community college English courses involve topics that are much too controversial for high school students. That university has responded to the community college environment by rejecting all such college credits. Although this is unusual, it’s best to check with the university your child hopes to eventually attend, so you aren’t disappointed.

 

Community college mixes the best and brightest students with those who struggle the most – and put them in the same class. One website explains: “Our Honors and Early College/Dual Enrollment programs attract some of the best and brightest minds. Our open-door policies allow students who need remediation to get the skills they need for college-level courses.†Two such varied situations, two sentences side by side, representing two students sitting next to each other in class. It can be difficult for either child in that situation.

 

Public universities will often (not always) have higher academic expectations, and the students population will often have higher academic expectations. Community college students are frequently remedial in one way or another. The students are often not ready for a university – financially, academically, socially, or for some other reason. That means they can be a challenge to educate, which makes it a very unique educational setting.

 

I asked my son if he thought community college had been a mistake. At the age of 20 he said “YES!†If I could do my life over again, I would have not done dual enrollment. I would have either continued homeschooling and achieve outside documentation through testing, or I would have graduated them a year early and sent them to a Christian University where the cultural and academic clash would have been less severe.

 

Is community college right for your family?

 

Ask your local friends about their community college experience. They may start with the positives. When you talk to parents who have gone before, they will say things like, “We had a wonderful experience but….†Listen for the “But….†If you had heard that disclaimer about a public high school, would you be tempted to enroll your child?

 

Think deeply about your feelings about public and secular universities. If you would not want your child to go to a public university or if you are concerned about the values at a private university, then community college will not be a good fit. One parent enrolled her children in community college and then explained, “My husband and I think that college is not worth the money and what kids are taught in college is questionable. If they choose to go to college, the school will be carefully chosen.†Consider that if a university is not a good fit for moral or religious reasons, then perhaps a community college is unlikely to fit your family either.

 

If you choose to send your child, there are some strategies that may mitigate trouble. Find a support group of like-minded individuals, either homeschoolers or Christian groups that meet regularly. Utilize the “buddy system†and keep your kids in class with another homeschooler. Carefully read all online comments about the professor on “RateMyProfessor.com.†Preview the textbooks before the first day of class.

 

Alternatives to Community College

 

Community college can be great outside documentation of academics, but there are alternatives. You can provide test scores instead, using SAT, ACT, SAT Subject Tests, CLEP and AP. You can provide letters of recommendation through internships and apprenticeships. You can also homeschool some college using online courses or credit by examination. "CollegePlus!" is a mentoring program that assists teenagers who plan to homeschool college. For more resources, I have a webpage called “How to Homeschool College.â€

 

When you are considering community college, don’t see it through rose-colored glasses, and think it’s a perfect educational utopia. Keep your eyes open to the fact that it may be more “Rated R†than your student is ready for. If the crowd seems to all follow the community college route, that doesn’t mean you have to follow along yourself. Consider carefully, know your child, and trust your own judgment.

 

Copyright Lee Binz, 2010

You have permission to reprint this article as long as you don't make any changes and include the bio below.

 

Lee Binz, The HomeScholar, specializes in helping parents homeschool high school. Learn how to apply community college, CLEP, and AP courses on your homeschool transcript. Get Lee's Total Transcript Solution and get answers to your most complicated high school questions. You can find her at http://www.TheHomeScholar.com.

[romeacademy]

I got this article too. I think she brings up some things to be aware of, but we still plan to have dd take some classes at the local cc starting next year. We think it will give her an opportunity to explore a wider range of classes/interests than she could otherwise and honestly given how college tuition is going up we'd like her to get a few credits under her belt.

 

I have several friends who've graduated kids in the last couple of years. They feel the cc classes are valuable in preparing kids for college course work because they are more rigorous and the kids had to work more independently. It also gave their kids added confidence.

 

I have no doubt you can run into instructor's dropping f-bombs and assigning problematic material. In fact I know one student who did run into some pretty borderline stuff in his cc Lit class. And it's certainly true that the other students are older, so it's definitely not the avenue for every kid. However, I know enough homeschooler's who have sent their kids to the local cc that I feel able to get feedback about teachers and coursework. Another perspective is that this is some of the same stuff kids are likely to run into in college, and I feel more comfortable walking through it with her while she's still home.

[Murphy101]

Awesome article and I completely agree with her. Especially in regards to our local community college. (which is the same as cindy downs references!)

Edited September 3, 2010 by Martha

[1Togo]

Dh is returning to college to finish his degree. He decided to take refresher math and English courses. His experiences during the last month include:

 

1. Students openly cheating on an exam when the professor left the room.

 

2. Students talking and leaving the room for snacks/coffee while the professor is lecturing.

 

3. Students falling asleep and constantly texting during class.

 

4. Many students who do not care about grades, class prep or due dates.

 

There don't seem to be any rules because these are night classes set up for adults. The school expects adults to set their own priorities and know how to behave. Our oldest son went to a local secular university, and while there was a broad mix of students with different lifestyles and values, the classroom environment was structured. There were clear guidelines for behavior in the classroom, attendance, etc. In addition, it was rigorous and fast paced. If students missed or slept through classes, they struggled. Ds received many emails asking for class notes and help.

 

On the other hand, a friend's son went through a dual enrollment program in WA state, and it was a positive experience. He earned a two-year degree with little cost and made an easy transfer to UW. Now he just needs two years at UW, and he's ready for grad school.

 

I think it's one of those decisions that can only be made based on the situation and student, and we are considering it for dd. However, we now know to steer away from night classes.

 

Bonita

Edited September 3, 2010 by 1Togo
Corrections

[Miss Marple]

For us, dual enrollment has been successful. However, I do wonder about those who put very young teens into this environment. I believe that each student matures differently, are raised in different environments, and as such may or may not be ready to handle the R-rated world.

 

In our case, my boys began when they were almost 17. Being a medical family, we are very open and honest in our treatment of sexuality, etc. coming at it from not only a scientific standpoint but a spiritual/emotional one as well. This is something we have done since the boys were little. They are aware of the hyper focus on sex in our society. We discuss the rights/wrongs of various choices their peers will make. We also discuss what they may encounter in college as far as professors go and we have had friends who have had issues with various classes so the boys are well aware of their environment.

 

One of the most important things a parent can do when he/she enrolls a high schooler in the R-rated world, is to pick the courses very carefully, know something about the professor, and maintain daily connection with the student about what is happening in his life at school.

 

I believe the whole secular world is R-rated to a degree. At some point our kids will be in it. That point is dependent on the maturity of the student.

[FlockOfSillies]

I believe the whole secular world is R-rated to a degree. At some point our kids will be in it. That point is dependent on the maturity of the student.

 

:iagree:

 

You can't even drive down the road without seeing profanity in movie and TV titles on billboards.

[Jann in TX]

Our local community college has a matriculation agreement (I think that is what it is called) where the community college classes MUST be taught to the SAME level/depth as the state's 4-year schools. Courses taken are guaranteed to transfer.

 

Homeschooled students are welcome but they must have completed their Sophomore year credit wise AND they must be at least 16 yrs old.

 

We DID OUR RESEARCH as parents... we knew that we did not want our daughters taking certain classes while still in high school... We also researched the teachers/professors so we knew their teaching styles.

 

My oldest daughter took Art 1/Drawing and did great--high A in the class (and she deserved it!)... she opted not to take Art II as that class involved nude models each week--even when they were only going to draw ears! She was not comfortable--and we were glad she opted out of this one... she may take it in a few years...or not.

 

Both of my older dds took Speech last fall. There were a few 'sexual' comments made--but my girls were grounded enough that they just let it go.. once the class learned that my middle dd was only 16 they behaved themselves (dual-students do not have to declare their age to classmates and even instructors to prevent discrimination--at 16 my dd was more mature than some of the 25 yr olds taking the same course!).

 

I will not let my dd who is taking dual courses take the general "English Lit 1" class... it has ADULT reading that would burn MY eyes! She does plan on taking a British Lit course next semester if she can find a prof. with a good teaching reputation.

 

My oldest is a full time CC student... my middle dd is 'dual'. Oldest dd never took CC classes while homeschooled--she was NOT mature enough.

 

I think the above examples are NOT typical--but I do believe that parents of homeschoolers need to do their research to make sure that the situations they are placing their 16yr olds in is appropriate and beneficial.

[FloridaLisa]

There are definitely pros and cons to community college dual-enrollment. Ds actually had a very positive experience at the community college, but encountered his first R-rated class at the university (English comp).

 

One thing that can help is to have high schoolers take value-neutral classes. Math and language classes, for example, tend to be more cut and dried than humanities or English classes.

 

Another thing I hope to do is to create a local information network among home schooling families that have dual-enrolled so that we can share about the classes and professors to avoid and those classes/professors that are great. I've had this idea for a while and wish I'd already implemented it.

 

Lisa

[Alyce]

from my experience it depends on the student and the facility. Both my children have done dual enrollment and it went well. I did not go in blind to this process. I know that those conditions exist and have talked to my children before they attended. At our CC the student has to be minimum of 16 and take a placement test. Many of the upper classes have basic classes as prerequisites so that in itself limits course choice. I sent mine because I wanted them to be in a more independent "real world" environment before they went off to college. After dd went to college we talked about difference between CC and college. She said that she saw many of the same problems at college but felt that she was better prepared for college than her fellow freshman. Most of the ones she encountered had been babied at high school and the more adult enviroment and the professors not coddling the students (ie' reminding them when things were due, letting them re do papers and test, and letting papers be turned in late) made it harder for them to adjust. She felt her CC experience had helped her in that area so academically she was better prepared and all she had to deal with were the homesickness.

[Photo Ninja]

All my dc have taken classes at the cc while in high school, and one was full time at the cc in 11th grade.

 

Yes, these problems do exist in community colleges, but to varying degrees. Some of what the article mentions has occurred in classes here, and while other situations happen, we have been able to avoid them. We did our homework before enrolling, checking with other hsing students on the courses they took and the instructors they had. It is widely known which instructors use offensive language while lecturing, which have been identified to hold specific world views, what books are assigned during some specific courses, etc. My dc were able to avoid these instructors and had instructors they really enjoyed, who liked having students who were interested. Yes, there were students who may as well not have enrolled in the courses because they didn't come to class and didn't do the homework. One student told my ds that he was skipping the final because he already had one final that day and it wasn't fair to schedule two in the same day! So yes, my dc had to deal with students who didn't care about school. But my dc did care, and found ways to work on group projects with others who cared. My dc ignored the rude comments made by some in the class, and had some instructors who sent students out of class because they refused to accept the language. While we were warned about the problems with content in Speech class, my dc all took the course and didn't experience inappropriate content in other students' speeches. We do know students who chose to leave the room during speeches in their speech course, so maybe my dc just got lucky. They also chose a Speech instructor who set parameters on speech content.

 

So while there are drawbacks to cc classes, there are benefits as well. My dc have experienced the benefits, and they outweighed the drawbacks.

 

I think it comes down to knowing your dc and how prepared they are to meet the challenges of the secular world of cc, and doing some checking on the content of courses and instructors before registering. My dc did choose a schedule that was not their first choice because they were avoiding specific instructors. But that choice allowed them to like their courses and instructors. But certainly, I warn others who are considering enrolling their high school students in cc classes. No one should go there unaware of the environment.

[Yolanda in Mass]

My ds did 3 semesters at the cc, mostly after graduating high school. He learned he can get straight A's with almost no effort whatsoever, and he learned the difference between gender and sex in English 101. He learned about where different sex positions came from in sociology, and that most kids in cc couldn't care less about learning. He was propositioned a lot by both males and females in all sorts of settings (watch out for those study groups!) and also found out that pot-smoking on the premises is completely, or almost completely, ignored.

 

I think cc is right for some students and not for others. My son was/is very impressionable and very bright. He found the atmosphere depressing and oppressive, and he felt that he almost cheated his way onto the honor role since it was so easy. Easier than what we did at home. Some kids can rise above this environment and not let it affect them; take their classes and get out. It was most definitely not a healthy environment for my son even though most of his teachers were excellent.

 

His grades did get him into the honors college at the state u. and he got most of his gen eds out of the way. His brother is most definitely not going this route, however, and he's not nearly as impressionable.

 

FWIW - our cc is in a suburb of Boston. A cc which draws on middle to upper middle class communities.

 

Yolanda

[MomsintheGarden]

CC is an extremely popular option around here. A lot of folks have had great experiences with the local school. We chose not to dual enroll because of three reasons:

1. We heard directly from families that the content of some classes was not what we wanted for our high schoolers.

2. The CC is 45 minutes away.

3. We felt we could help our children get college credit more cheaply by studying for CLEPs and APs at home.

 

Another big factor in our decision was what happened to our nephew. He went to the same local CC, did very well in his classes, and got his AA. When he transferred to the state school, only a few of his credits transferred. He had to spend three years taking heavy loads of technical credits to get his BS in engineering. Part of the problem was the CC - they didn't have classes he needed for prereqs, and they lied and said that certain courses would transfer when they didn't. By the time he was done he had spent 5 years getting his BS, and was burnt out.

 

Since our uni (the same one our nephew went to) has a 5-year BS-MS program in our son's major, we thought we may as well send him there from the beginning.

 

GardenMom

[Miss Marple]

I would have either continued homeschooling and achieve outside documentation through testing, or I would have graduated them a year early and sent them to a Christian University where the cultural and academic clash would have been less severe.

 

This quote is very naive. I know of several Christian families who sent their children to Christian colleges only to find that the problems they were trying to avoid in the secular colleges were just as rampant on the Christian campus. These kids, instead of seeing good vs. evil, saw the kids engaging in immoral conduct and it was covered over. The cultural clash can be just as bad, but IMO more harmful because it's done under the guise of "Christianity".

 

Sometimes I think it's easier being a Christian in a world where evil is evil and not glossed over. I have a friend who raised her kids on the mission field. She said she would rather raise them with the prevalent witchcraft and other secular worldview beliefs than to raise them in the US where religion so often tolerates evil within and teaches the kids to be hypocrites.

 

My oldest and I interviewed at a Christian University where I was assigned to the parents group. I found that I really didn't fit in well because I wasn't looking for a college that would keep my son reined in. Most of these parents were looking for a place to put their kids who had desires that were not consistent with their faith. The young lady who was escorting us was honest enough to tell these parents that if the kids are looking for it, they will find it on any campus. She's right. We chose the state university and have not regretted that decision. Ds has been confronted with his spirituality and has had to make it his own. And he has done well. He was also well prepared by the dual enrollment - he was leaps ahead of the average freshman when he started.

 

We cannot keep our kids out of the world. But we can teach them how to live in the world. As Christians we are to be in the world, but not of the world. I know too many homeschoolers who equate "in" with "of" and they live their lives in fear. And making decisions based on "fear" is never healthy - for the parents or the students.

 

Articles of this sort bother me. I wonder why someone writes articles of this sort when it's obvious that there are good experiences at CC as well as bad. Do they feel threatened because the face of homeschooling is changing? There is so much fear! I encounter this all the time in my area. One mother told me the other day that her son (21) told her that he every time he goes to the XXX store the young lady cashiers just about take their clothes off in front of him! This family has totally sheltered these young men to the point that they perceive a friendly cashier as coming on to them. I happen to shop at XXX and these are sweet young ladies who, for the sake of the business, are friendly. I appreciate friendliness and I send my sons there alone to pick up items without fear that they will be exposed to anything but a friendly clerk.

[Laurie4b]

Our local community college has a matriculation agreement (I think that is what it is called) where the community college classes MUST be taught to the SAME level/depth as the state's 4-year schools. Courses taken are guaranteed to transfer.

 

.

 

This is true where we are as well, so it is a really good deal if a student goes in state to a public college. My kids have had very good experiences so far. We had one "gotcha" teacher, a couple of excellent courses, an easy course, etc--the range. He has to learn to cope with this.

 

We haven't had material in the classes that I would object strongly to; however, though we are conservative Christians, shielding our kids is not high up on our priority list. They will probably all go to secular universities; they can certainly access that stuff on TV, the internet, their cell phones.... They will have to learn to make choices at some point, so I'd prefer to be around when they are confronted with it.

 

And yes, not everyone at the CC is a motivated learner. My kids need to learn about all kinds of people. They are not influenced to become like that and there has been a course or two ds decided not to take because he didn't think the discussion would be as good as it would be at a university, so he'll take that course there.

 

I don't have any concerns at this point that override the benefits.

[Cedarmom]

My son went to CC in his junior year, for the most part it was a postivie expereince. He took science/math classes. If he hadwanted to take English classes I probably would have wanted to see their required texts first. He had a mix of students who were haard workers and slackers. He signed up to do a project with a kid who hardly whowed up to class. But he quickly changed partners, so I thought it was a good lesson on who to chose for your groups. I had talked to other parents whose kids had attended the cc and felt fairly confident the school was ok. We are fairly conservative christians, but since my son would be going to the state university I was not looking for a school that mirrored all my values.

[TravelingChris]

My dd took an honors psychology class when she had just turned 15. It was fine. I don't know if people were slackers, maybe some, but she wasn't. SHe learned a lot even though some of the discussions were pointless. BUt was she harmed by learning that some people believe strange things- no.

 

This semester, as a 17 yo senior, she is taking an online class in criminology. No issues with it either and there doesn't seem to be much class discussion. It seems to be mainly a do the readings, do the assignments, turn the assignments in type class. Well she is learning and it is very similar to what she does in some of her homeschool classes.

 

We won't be surprised if these classes don't transfer but it will be okay. We aren't doing this to save money but to give her opportunities she doesn't have at home.

 

We are Christians but the kids lived in Europe and saw ads and billboards that wouldn't be allowed in the US. It didn't make them less chaste but did make them much more blase about such things.

[FloridaLisa]

Just one more quick thought: I don't think this is a fad. I've known some very long-time homeschoolers who had their children dual-enroll in the later high school years. In fact, some of those same long-time homeschoolers were the ones that recommended starting with or keeping to value-neutral classes.

 

Lisa

[JennW in SoCal]

I couldn't take this article seriously because it strikes me as fear-mongering propaganda. I mean, good grief, the author is trying to persuade her readers by using anecdotes with hot button catch phrases of "pornography" or "politically correct".

 

The same message could be given in a much more straight forward and factual tone. Of course parents should consider the content of a course at a public college filled with adult students. Of course parents should help their student make sure their courses will qualify for transfers. Of course parents should decide if their kids are ready to deal with whatever content or personalities are in a classroom. It is what good parenting is about.

[Sonshine]

We have varying success cc. With very careful screening of texts used in classes, and generally avoiding anything but technical writing for English we haven't had values issues. Although even with my using my internet research skills to the utmost, a surprise still could have happened. A problem I didn't anticipate was some of my kids not receiving the best grades in cc classes and possibly those grades tarnishing a chance for scholarships with high SAT scores.

My kids are hard working, but the boys sometimes missed deadlines, etc. out of carelessness. Of course, these were in online courses, so maybe they would have done better in on campus courses. They were much more diligent with their outside homeschool classes. They saw those as the real classes and the online classes as just a way to get free college credit. I still plan on using cc as an option, but do a better job of matching the situation to the student.

 

I do think studying for Cleps and AP tests is a better route to go, but my boys would never get around to doing this on their own, and wouldn't listen to me (except for one).

 

Going into college with a full year of college credit is great - we try to match the classes up to where they are likely to go and their basic requirements, although this isn't foolproof as they may change their minds,

etc.

CC is also a good place to take auto repair, welding, and other vocational courses even if you plan on going on to college. There is less opportunity for values conflicts as well.

[mktkcb]

amen to all of the above. our cc experience,in general, has been fine. Yes, I know there are teachers that are worse than others. Yes, we do our best to check Rate Your Proffessor and choose profs wisely. Difficulty level has been fine, overall. We have transfer agreements with the state Uni's. We've been happy overall, so far. The annoying thing right now is class availability due to state cuts.

[Ellie]

Just one more quick thought: I don't think this is a fad. I've known some very long-time homeschoolers who had their children dual-enroll in the later high school years. In fact, some of those same long-time homeschoolers were the ones that recommended starting with or keeping to value-neutral classes.

 

Lisa

I went to the first CHEA convention in California around 1983. The only workshops I went to all day were the ones on getting dc through high school...and my older dd was just 7. :D Even then, Jonathan Lindvall was advocating doing community college instead of high school.

 

My older dd began taking classes at the c.c. when she was 13--we took an art class together in the spring semester. The following fall, when she was 14, she took Latin and basic arithmetic, and went on from there. That would have been 1989. Younger dd was 14 when she started. Neither ever had any of the experiences that have been mentioned in this thread; I'd do it again if there were do-overs.:)

 

And my dds were not unique. Many of the hsers where I lived at that time (San Jose, California, area) did the same thing.

[Tullia]

Our CC has a matriculation agreement, and is strict about enforcing course prerequisites. Students who need remediation are put in remedial classes. Remedial courses are freely available, but they don't fulfill degree requirements for the AS or AA degrees. One thing I found was that it took a bit of reading through the catalog to understand which courses were remedial and which are considered college level--maybe the fuzziness is a face-saving device for students?

 

My son did not dual enroll, but did take a math course through the CC as a senior. The class met in the early evening at the local middle school so he wasn't on the CC campus for his first course. Even so, there was an interesting variety of students at the beginning of the semester and quite a few people dropped out by mid-term. Ds still sees a lot of that. I would suggest that parents considering dual enrollment research the textbooks listed for courses and to take seriously comments posted on the websites that rate instructors. It does happen that perfectly good instructors get bad ratings. I tend to ignore ratings whose comments are laced with vulgarity and general complaints. Those with specific, thoughtfully expressed criticisms are IME more accurate.

 

Math and science courses will be less likely to have mature discussion themes than humanities/social science courses. My son has not taken any remedial courses, but I have been told by other hs'ers whose children enrolled in basic courses that many of those math and science courses do have significant numbers of folks who've taken a few educational detours before enrolling in college and can be...well...coarse, rude, and occasionally disruptive. However, instructors don't have to put up with disruptive students at our CC. The students in college level courses tend to be more serious; many of the older students are too busy for nonsense.

 

The potential for having a poor grade on a transcript is very real. For my son, even as a high school graduate the pace and intensity his first full semester of CC took some getting used to. For a younger high school student, I'd keep an eye on schedules, remind them of deadlines, and be alert for indications that they might need to visit the tutoring center.

 

I have a neighbor who teaches high school science. She developed a science program which involved dual enrollment and extensive work in a robotics lab. For a number of reasons (primarily concerns of parents) those students were bussed in school district vehicles to the CC campus and had separate classrooms. They were not allowed to mix with the general student body. I throw that in for what it's worth.

 

My son inadvertently signed up for a course this term with an instructor who has a reputation for being intolerant, foul-mouthed and teaching from only one perspective. Ds' first clue was that the text listed for his section was unusually expensive and then we discovered that no other instructors use it. He read some reviews of the text and it was described as focusing on one particular theoretical perspective--IMO not a good thing in lower-level, general courses. After reading comments at a couple of instructor ratings websites he decided to drop/add before the beginning of the term.

 

OTOH, last fall he decided to defer judgment about his English course after reading the reviews of the text. First, most classes were full and he was desperate to find something that would fit his schedule. Second, almost all the other sections (with the exception of the online options) used the book. As it happened, the instructor was fabulous and shared with ds the fact that Tolkien and CS Lewis were among her favorite authors. She also picked the best selections from the anthology. That said, ds has heard of instructors announcing that they don't like having dual-enrolled or home schooled students in the classroom and suggesting that they change sections asap.

 

There are so many variables to consider. The author clearly has strong opinions about sending high school students to a secular institution.YMMV! My advice is to find out how your CC operates, have a realistic understanding of your student's maturity level and time management skills, and be prepared to discreetly monitor your teen's situation.

[Carrie12345]

I couldn't take this article seriously because it strikes me as fear-mongering propaganda. I mean, good grief, the author is trying to persuade her readers by using anecdotes with hot button catch phrases of "pornography" or "politically correct".

 

The same message could be given in a much more straight forward and factual tone. Of course parents should consider the content of a course at a public college filled with adult students. Of course parents should help their student make sure their courses will qualify for transfers. Of course parents should decide if their kids are ready to deal with whatever content or personalities are in a classroom. It is what good parenting is about.

 

:iagree:, and I don't think it's a "cc" issue, really. I've attended two different community colleges and a private, secular college, and have spent a lot of time on our local university's campus. Most of the points raised could be applicable to any of those institutions.

[choirfarm]

I plan to enroll my oldest at CC next year. There was just an article about our CC and how their enrollment is the highest is has ever been and a big part of it is the dual enrollment. They have over 1500 kids enrolled in the dual credit program this year!!! I notice in their catalogue that several of the classes have stars by them to indicate they are high school only so you can't enroll if you are older. That is what I had planned to do. That said, I'm sure you will find all of what she said in a high school only class as well. All I have to do is stroll through the high school football practices to hear all the profanity I ever wished to. But he will be 16 and he is going to have to be exposed at some point....

 

Christine

[LittleHouseHomeschool]

I read this article at the website a couple years ago.

 

Though I have known Lee for years by email, and have appreciated her encouragement and wisdom, I have disagreed with this particular article because it encourages us to think that things are better in the university system. This is untrue.

 

The world is the world whevever you go. There are good and bad teachers in community colleges and universities. Teachers will use whatever material they personally feel is appropriate. In some cases that means that inappropriate materials will be assigned, inappropriate language will be used, and wrong thinking and action will be promoted.

 

Quite frankly, I know of an instance where inappropriate materials and language were being used in a highly respected Christian college. Man is man. We are sinful. Christians, on this side of Heaven, still have sin natures. There are also teachers who call themselves Christians when, in fact, they are behaving inconsistently with the name of Jesus. Therefore, you will find sin in any school you attend. There is no perfect school.

 

The best thing we can do is teach our children to love the Lord and seek after Him with all of themselves. Kids need to be able to recognize truth from error and wrong from right. They need to know Jesus personally.

 

Dual enrollment is a good thing for some students. For others, it's not appropriate. That does not mean that community colleges are not a viable option. It just means that a young person needs to be grounded in their personal relationship with Jesus before walking out into the world.

 

Secondly, you will find a variance in the quality of community colleges. Some schools will have a fine reputation. Others will not. This is true in the university system as well.

 

We all have do our own homework and then tackle this debate with prayer and faith, not fear.

[creekland]

We haven't had problems (yet) with CC. I see them as honors level high school courses in content (though my son's microbio course this year, so far, seems higher than what I had in high school). English certainly was not, but it was decent and helped to provide stats and references needed to get into a 4 year college with nice merit aid.

 

Yes, pretty much all of the problems mentioned are there (slackers, language, sexual references), but that IS the real world. We have quite a few discussions about it here at home, and discussions about how people make choices. My boys all know they are in the process of making their own choices as they go through their teen (and older) years. They can choose "A" and end up at "B," or they can choose "C and end up at "D," etc. Real examples abound.

 

In our family, sheltering when kids are really young is good. As they mature into teens the real world is introduced via certain media choices and discussions. Once they reach 16, CC is not only an assistance toward their college goals, it provides a great teaching experience about the real world and making those choices. I CAN NOT make their choices for them. They will have to. It's their life.

 

Whether my boys move on to Christian or secular colleges is more or less up to them and what they want to do. All know they are going to a 4 year college (and all are academically talented enough to do so), and they are looking forward to it. My oldest is there and loving it. CC is just a stepping stone for us. The courses we choose are those that are the correct step educationally for each son. The rest is discussion material and more of "real life 201."

[Jane in NC]

Sigh...

 

That this article with its emotional and anecdotal arguments would influence anyone's decision regarding their high school students disturbs me. Frankly I wondered, "What is in it for the author?" Namely, will she profit by parents using her consulting services to help students acquire CLEP credits? Does the author keep her teens out of Barnes and Noble because the ideas in the books they sell might corrupt their young minds or because she does not like the suggestive book covers?

 

Having taught at the local community college, I advise parents to do their homework before registration. The concurrent enrollment advisor is knowledgeable regarding faculty and course demands. The CC presented good lab science opportunities for my son. One of his compositions classes was solid, the other a waste of time. I did not follow my own advice and do my homework on who the instructor was.

 

That said, one of my friends who is a professor in the UNC system tells me that his institution is examining the articulation agreement. Students who graduate from NC CCs with an AA or AS are guaranteed slots at the university but they are finding that these students are not always up to junior level work upon matriculation. He told me in particular of a student who wished to major in history (his field) who had never written a research paper using primary source documents at his CC. This is a skill that needs to be acquired before the junior year in order to complete degree requirements successfully.

 

Nonetheless CC can be enriching to our homeschooled students, giving them opportunities to answer to someone other than Mom, helping them meet deadlines, exposing them to a wide variety of people within their communities. I find it silly that parents would think that college teachers are supposed to censor the ideas of students. If your student is not sufficiently mature to be exposed to adult ideas, then I would argue that that student should not be in college.

 

Let's do what is best for our students as individuals and avoid these sweeping generalities. What is best for my student and our family may not be best for your student or your family. Period.

[flyingiguana]

I couldn't take this article seriously because it strikes me as fear-mongering propaganda. I mean, good grief, the author is trying to persuade her readers by using anecdotes with hot button catch phrases of "pornography" or "politically correct".

 

]

 

:iagree:

 

The writer of the article is paranoid. Or perhaps is trying, singlehandedly, to bring down the establishment of the cc because she sees Satan at work.

 

We haven't bothered with cc because we are generally able to do things at home. The only reasons I see for doing cc are if the parents really can't teach the material, or the students are really wanting some live interaction with fellow students or with a different teaching style, or it's felt that the cc courses will transfer into a degree program. The last only works if one is careful about choosing classes. Even with AP tests, not everything transfers, and there are a number of depts/colleges that aren't interested in accepting too much CLEP credit, or the extra credits turn out not to do any good in the final major.

 

So while I'm not really sold on the cc idea, myself, it's not for the reasons this author gives.

 

On the topic of professor ratings, we've found that a lot of low rated professors are excellent, and vice versa. The ratings seem random. Or else it might be better to choose professors that no one else likes. On average, in our limited experience, they tend to be the better ones.

[Nicole M]

I couldn't take this article seriously because it strikes me as fear-mongering propaganda. I mean, good grief, the author is trying to persuade her readers by using anecdotes with hot button catch phrases of "pornography" or "politically correct".

 

The same message could be given in a much more straight forward and factual tone. Of course parents should consider the content of a course at a public college filled with adult students. Of course parents should help their student make sure their courses will qualify for transfers. Of course parents should decide if their kids are ready to deal with whatever content or personalities are in a classroom. It is what good parenting is about.

 

I couldn't take it seriously, either.

 

Our experience with community college has been fantastic. But then, we were able to hand-pick my son's courses with a lot of inside knowledge, because we have friends who teach there, some moonlighting from the small private liberal arts college where I work -- really top-notch profs. Our friends love working in the CC environment, because, contrary to what others here have mentioned about students not caring, they have seen their students overcoming tremendous odds to succeed, with almost no tools at their disposal. The students are typically there because they want to be, not because mommy and daddy are paying for them to be there. But generalizations are dangerous.

 

Something to keep in mind: community colleges are changing radically, very quickly. Across the nation, with the economy in the toilet, and folks out of work, c. colleges are bursting at the seams. Enrollment has soared at our local school, and there aren't enough classrooms to accommodate all the students. So not only is this a space issue, but the demographics are changing as well, with more and more older, out-of-work adults attending classes, either for job training or to get requirements for a new degree so that they can seek a different type of employment. I think this is another reason it's very difficult to characterize CCs in sweeping terms.

 

ETA: One solution that our local CC has come up with to accommodate all the students is the "hybrid-online" model. Student take an "online" course (discussion, lecture notes and papers are all online), but then meet with the rest of the class once/week for a lab -- this was Environmental Science. This format was really a disaster for my son. So, yes, it's important to do your research before choosing courses, and, yes, there are courses that may or may not be a anything but a waste of time for your students.

Edited September 4, 2010 by Nicole M

[Nicole M]

Sigh...

 

That this article with its emotional and anecdotal arguments would influence anyone's decision regarding their high school students disturbs me. Frankly I wondered, "What is in it for the author?" Namely, will she profit by parents using her consulting services to help students acquire CLEP credits? Does the author keep her teens out of Barnes and Noble because the ideas in the books they sell might corrupt their young minds or because she does not like the suggestive book covers?

 

:D

 

Having taught at the local community college, I advise parents to do their homework before registration. The concurrent enrollment advisor is knowledgeable regarding faculty and course demands. The CC presented good lab science opportunities for my son. One of his compositions classes was solid, the other a waste of time. I did not follow my own advice and do my homework on who the instructor was.

Lab science opportunities were a huge motivation for us in sending our son to the CC. I had no interest in cutting up dead animals in my kitchen, nor in (potentially) blowing up my house. Also, the admission counselors for 4-year schools that I spoke with all agreed that the biggest problem with many of the applications they see from homeschoolers is that they don't have enough rigorous lab science courses on their transcripts.

 

That said, one of my friends who is a professor in the UNC system tells me that his institution is examining the articulation agreement. Students who graduate from NC CCs with an AA or AS are guaranteed slots at the university but they are finding that these students are not always up to junior level work upon matriculation. He told me in particular of a student who wished to major in history (his field) who had never written a research paper using primary source documents at his CC. This is a skill that needs to be acquired before the junior year in order to complete degree requirements successfully.

This is sad. I was quite impressed with my son's US History course this past year. During each 10-week quarter, the students wrote three for-and-against papers using primary source documents. At first my son didn't know what hit him. But by the end of the year, he was quite proficient with engaging with primary sources and will teasing out a sophisticated assessment of various key events in our history.

 

Nonetheless CC can be enriching to our homeschooled students, giving them opportunities to answer to someone other than Mom, helping them meet deadlines, exposing them to a wide variety of people within their communities. I find it silly that parents would think that college teachers are supposed to censor the ideas of students. If your student is not sufficiently mature to be exposed to adult ideas, then I would argue that that student should not be in college.

 

Let's do what is best for our students as individuals and avoid these sweeping generalities. What is best for my student and our family may not be best for your student or your family. Period.

Hear, hear! Edited September 4, 2010 by Nicole M

[Jane in NC]

l

 

Something to keep in mind: community colleges are changing radically, very quickly. Across the nation, with the economy in the toilet, and folks out of work, c. colleges are bursting at the seams. Enrollment has soared at our local school, and there aren't enough classrooms to accommodate all the students. So not only is this a space issue, but the demographics are changing as well, with more and more older, out-of-work adults attending classes, either for job training or to get requirements for a new degree so that they can seek a different type of employment. I think this is another reason it's very difficult to characterize CCs in sweeping terms.

 

Good point, Nicole. (Initially wrote "Good pint, Nicole" which is something else entirely! :cheers2: )

 

Here in NC, the legislature changed the concurrent enrollment rules in '09. High school students, who had once been allowed to take CC courses for free, are now charged for courses outside of math, science and technical training. For all I know, the rules may have changed again this past summer--I just was not paying attention. Anyway, homeschooling families that have long put their students in courses at CC quit doing so because they could not afford the tuition. Further, some CCs give priority to regular students over those doing dual enrollment which means that the number of openings for high schoolers has diminished.

 

Another element at play here in NC is the rise of the Early College High School. We know several homeschool families that opt for this route once the student reaches 9th grade.

[angela in ohio]

I believe the whole secular world is R-rated to a degree. At some point our kids will be in it. That point is dependent on the maturity of the student.

 

I agree.

 

Also, I have found, from listening to her speak and reading her articles, that Lee Binz isn't necessarily into academics, but more "doing as much as you have to to get a minimum transcript." I expected differently, since she calls herself "The Home Scholar." So I am starting from a different mind-set than she is.

 

I think there is a HUGE variety of quality and experiences from cc to cc. In lumping them together and speaking of them as a group, she lost my ear. Really? ALL cc are bad for ALL students?

 

I also think she is insulting to those earning their degrees at cc.

 

Seems like a lengthy commerical for CollegePlus!

[swimmermom3]

I couldn't take this article seriously because it strikes me as fear-mongering propaganda. I mean, good grief, the author is trying to persuade her readers by using anecdotes with hot button catch phrases of "pornography" or "politically correct".

 

The same message could be given in a much more straight forward and factual tone. Of course parents should consider the content of a course at a public college filled with adult students. Of course parents should help their student make sure their courses will qualify for transfers. Of course parents should decide if their kids are ready to deal with whatever content or personalities are in a classroom. It is what good parenting is about.

 

Thanks for saying this. The article was over-the-top and irresponsible. For me, the tone detracted from potentially valid points.

[Mommyfaithe]

I didn't read the other replies yet, but my experience with the CC in our area makes these stories pale in comparison. My dd's came home with storiues that made my hair stand on end...thus I was very happy about my decision NOT to dual enroll high school, but to use CC as a stepping stone to a 4 year college or university. So far, I am so happy with that decision.

 

My children were at a point i their lives where they were mature and sure of their own self identities before dealing with the bs of the "school" crowd. They did not cave into peer pressure and sought out interesting and intelligent friends from all walks of life...but steered clear of the 'wrong"ish crowd.

 

Their classes were/are challenging and they were very well prepared to take the next step to a live-away- from home school.

 

Really, I don't understand the rushy trend that seems to be overtaking the homeschool movement. There is no race to the finish line. I have found the 2 years extra at home gave my kids the advantage over their classroom peers both academically (3.9 GPA's) and socially.

 

Just because my kids could have done college at 15 or 16...and would have held their own academically....doesn't mean they SHOULD have done it that way.

 

I am now homeschooling an 11th grader the who is chomping at bit for a more challenging workload...so I will provide it, but not at the cost of what we have struggled to achieve over the past 16 years...which is to raise an intelligent, independent, mature adult who will be able to stand strong and fulfill his God given destiny. I don't feel there is a rush to get to the finish line. I want to enjoy my last 2 years focusing on him and helping him to his goals.

 

~~Faithe

 

ETA: The tone of that article was ridiculous....but the premis was sort of right on. IOW.....I think it was poorly written and written to appeal to fearful parents. I am not a fearful parent, just a careful one...and after reviewing the course work my dd's were "forced" to sit through....(English 101 dealt with abortion, drunkeness, rape, adultery, murders, homosexuality etc. all graphically described in the reading assignments, an art class where the teacher gave a slide show of pornographic pictures SHE photographed (lesbian in content...and RAW...not beautiful nudes but sexually explicit) and graded them on their critiques, a history class where the teacher went off on full one hour diatribes on the horrors of the Bush administration and how Obama was going to save us all....and a philosophy teacher who said if you were a Christian, you were a moron....quoted. These were REQUIRED classes for their degree....no...sorry, we can't take that class. I was happy my kids confided in me what was going on and shared their reading with me. We had great conversations as adults...but it would have not gone the same way if my child was 15 or 16. For me, I am glad I waited and I am glad they werek with waiting.

Edited September 4, 2010 by Mommyfaithe

[Cedarmom]

:iagree:

I read this article at the website a couple years ago.

 

Though I have known Lee for years by email, and have appreciated her encouragement and wisdom, I have disagreed with this particular article because it encourages us to think that things are better in the university system. This is untrue.

 

The world is the world whevever you go. There are good and bad teachers in community colleges and universities. Teachers will use whatever material they personally feel is appropriate. In some cases that means that inappropriate materials will be assigned, inappropriate language will be used, and wrong thinking and action will be promoted.

 

Quite frankly, I know of an instance where inappropriate materials and language were being used in a highly respected Christian college. Man is man. We are sinful. Christians, on this side of Heaven, still have sin natures. There are also teachers who call themselves Christians when, in fact, they are behaving inconsistently with the name of Jesus. Therefore, you will find sin in any school you attend. There is no perfect school.

 

The best thing we can do is teach our children to love the Lord and seek after Him with all of themselves. Kids need to be able to recognize truth from error and wrong from right. They need to know Jesus personally.

 

Dual enrollment is a good thing for some students. For others, it's not appropriate. That does not mean that community colleges are not a viable option. It just means that a young person needs to be grounded in their personal relationship with Jesus before walking out into the world.

 

Secondly, you will find a variance in the quality of community colleges. Some schools will have a fine reputation. Others will not. This is true in the university system as well.

 

We all have do our own homework and then tackle this debate with prayer and faith, not fear.

 

:iagree: Well said!

[NeonCat]

We opted for a dual credit course thru Dallas Baptist University. The professor was fabulous. My son enjoyed the class and learned a great deal.

[creekland]

That said, one of my friends who is a professor in the UNC system tells me that his institution is examining the articulation agreement. Students who graduate from NC CCs with an AA or AS are guaranteed slots at the university but they are finding that these students are not always up to junior level work upon matriculation. He told me in particular of a student who wished to major in history (his field) who had never written a research paper using primary source documents at his CC. This is a skill that needs to be acquired before the junior year in order to complete degree requirements successfully.

 

We found the same thing at pretty much all the colleges we've visited. Profs were telling us they just couldn't determine the quality of kids coming in with cc classes. Some were good, some weren't. Some colleges have opted to not accept courses within ones major for that reason. Some do their own testing. Where they still accept all sorts of credits, profs are pushing the powers that be to change that rule. All agreed that having some cc classes was an asset to an application though.

 

 

Nonetheless CC can be enriching to our homeschooled students, giving them opportunities to answer to someone other than Mom, helping them meet deadlines, exposing them to a wide variety of people within their communities. I find it silly that parents would think that college teachers are supposed to censor the ideas of students. If your student is not sufficiently mature to be exposed to adult ideas, then I would argue that that student should not be in college.

 

Let's do what is best for our students as individuals and avoid these sweeping generalities. What is best for my student and our family may not be best for your student or your family. Period.

 

:iagree: 100%

[4wildberrys]

Interesting article, as I find myself marveling at just how popular the CC rage is with homeschoolers. I read a few comments, not all, but I will say that one that I totally agree with is that it does depend on the CC for sure!! I do wonder, though, as just why homeschoolers seem to regard CC as the "Holy Grail" of sorts, even though they are pretty much the same public system that is shunned for high school or grade school?? My daughter is definitely interested in using CC as a stepping stone for a 4 year, mainly to save $$, but I don't see the CC we are looking at as more rigorous and certainly not better than the incredible homeschool curriculum I have to choose from to finish off her high school. We are definitely choosing to let our kids actually finish a full 4 years of High School Homeschool before they go off into the College world. BUT----if either of our kids were super advanced and really needed to take higher than high school levels in many different areas.....then I guess I would have a different take on things.

 

Sometimes I wonder if so many homeschoolers get enamored with using a CC simply because it sounds SO good to tell people that your high schooler is actually completing their college before they even get to college?! :tongue_smilie:

[Dana]

I do wonder, though, as just why homeschoolers seem to regard CC as the "Holy Grail" of sorts, even though they are pretty much the same public system that is shunned for high school or grade school??

 

I'm curious why you say this and would be interested in hearing how you see a cc as the same as public school.

 

I completed a teaching credential and did student teaching at a public school. It was a truly hellish experience. I then taught at a cc. In some cases I was teaching material that was lower than what I'd teach in high school, but I did not have administrative interference in my classroom. I wasn't limited on what grades I could assign. The school district at that time (and unfortunately more now) made a 50 the lowest grade a student could get on any assignment (yup - even if they only turned in a paper with their name on it - they got a 50).

 

At the cc I teach at, students are allowed to fail. We'd sure prefer it if they didn't, but the onus on their learning is on them. At the public schools, the onus on student learning is on the teacher.

 

So even with teaching similar material, I see huge differences in the approaches. Also at a cc, if it's accredited, instructors have to have certain qualifications that they do not have to have at public schools. For instance, content instructors (math, science, English, etc.) have to have 18 graduate hours in their subject to teach. (In some other states the requirement is 21 graduate hours.) For programs (nursing, automotive tech, etc) instructors have to have certain certifications to teach.

[4wildberrys]

I'm curious why you say this and would be interested in hearing how you see a cc as the same as public school.

 

 

 

First of all, I don't think all CC or not worth it. I actually went to quite a good one in Southern Cal. I guess my point is, for homeschoolers, that you're still dealing with a system that teaches from revisionist, PC textbooks, and like you say at levels not much more than high school. Also, CC IS a place where all ages can take advantage of classes, so it doesn't surprise me that teachers would use things like sex to entice people to their classes, or that topics could become NC-17 rated. I honestly see the homeschool curriculum materials on the market today and the vast choice we have for different methods as superior to CC for high school. It's just my opinion and I am following through with that for my kids. I am also a VERY strong believer in homeschooling, not to mention a non-believer in pushing kids too hard, too fast, so I tend to stick up for it even if its not even popular on homeschooling chat boards. BUT---just keep in mind my kids are 'average' and so if they were at the level of needing true college level math, science, etc.----I would more than likely have to adjust for that.

[Dana]

First of all, I don't think all CC or not worth it. I actually went to quite a good one in Southern Cal. I guess my point is, for homeschoolers, that you're still dealing with a system that teaches from revisionist, PC textbooks, and like you say at levels not much more than high school. Also, CC IS a place where all ages can take advantage of classes, so it doesn't surprise me that teachers would use things like sex to entice people to their classes, or that topics could become NC-17 rated. I honestly see the homeschool curriculum materials on the market today and the vast choice we have for different methods as superior to CC for high school. It's just my opinion and I am following through with that for my kids. I am also a VERY strong believer in homeschooling, not to mention a non-believer in pushing kids too hard, too fast, so I tend to stick up for it even if its not even popular on homeschooling chat boards. BUT---just keep in mind my kids are 'average' and so if they were at the level of needing true college level math, science, etc.----I would more than likely have to adjust for that.

 

Thanks for the explanation.

[4wildberrys]

Thanks for the explanation.

 

You're welcome ;)

[4wildberrys]

This quote is very naive. I know of several Christian families who sent their children to Christian colleges only to find that the problems they were trying to avoid in the secular colleges were just as rampant on the Christian campus. These kids, instead of seeing good vs. evil, saw the kids engaging in immoral conduct and it was covered over. The cultural clash can be just as bad, but IMO more harmful because it's done under the guise of "Christianity".

 

Sometimes I think it's easier being a Christian in a world where evil is evil and not glossed over. I have a friend who raised her kids on the mission field. She said she would rather raise them with the prevalent witchcraft and other secular worldview beliefs than to raise them in the US where religion so often tolerates evil within and teaches the kids to be hypocrites.

 

My oldest and I interviewed at a Christian University where I was assigned to the parents group. I found that I really didn't fit in well because I wasn't looking for a college that would keep my son reined in. Most of these parents were looking for a place to put their kids who had desires that were not consistent with their faith. The young lady who was escorting us was honest enough to tell these parents that if the kids are looking for it, they will find it on any campus. She's right. We chose the state university and have not regretted that decision. Ds has been confronted with his spirituality and has had to make it his own. And he has done well. He was also well prepared by the dual enrollment - he was leaps ahead of the average freshman when he started.

 

We cannot keep our kids out of the world. But we can teach them how to live in the world. As Christians we are to be in the world, but not of the world. I know too many homeschoolers who equate "in" with "of" and they live their lives in fear. And making decisions based on "fear" is never healthy - for the parents or the students.

 

Articles of this sort bother me. I wonder why someone writes articles of this sort when it's obvious that there are good experiences at CC as well as bad. Do they feel threatened because the face of homeschooling is changing? There is so much fear! I encounter this all the time in my area. One mother told me the other day that her son (21) told her that he every time he goes to the XXX store the young lady cashiers just about take their clothes off in front of him! This family has totally sheltered these young men to the point that they perceive a friendly cashier as coming on to them. I happen to shop at XXX and these are sweet young ladies who, for the sake of the business, are friendly. I appreciate friendliness and I send my sons there alone to pick up items without fear that they will be exposed to anything but a friendly clerk.

 

:iagree: This has been such a huge problem alone in our small town homeschooling 'Christian' community----that our kids have NO interest in Christian colleges at all. Bad behavior under the guise of 'Christianity' (Catholicism too in our case) has been THE most detrimental and harmful thing we have encountered homeschooling so far. The kids have been much better off hanging out with their atheist public school friends............Sorry this doesn't have much to do with CC----but I just wanted to agree with this particular point. ;)

[homeschoolally]

Thanks to all of you for the discussion on this.

 

It has been really helpful and brought to light some of the negatives with the article I didn't notice.

 

I think what it boils down to is--some kids can handle it, some kids can't.

 

In our case, I think it is heavily age-dependent. At 19--my older son would probably handle these situations just fine. I wouldn't be thrilled about it, but it wouldn't be reason enough to give up on the CC totally. But throw this same kid into that setting at 16--I feel like I'd be failing him because he just isn't mature enough yet.

 

Looks like with all the cutbacks and restrictions coming at the CCs, we may not have this option much longer anyway. Really makes me wonder if it is worth giving up freshman status and the residence and merit scholarship opportunities that go along with it--to get another few semesters in at the CC.

 

A mature 17 year old would probably be fine. In our situation he is younger and socially immature. He isn't ready, but I don't doubt that some kids are at that age. Thanks again for your thoughts.

 

Lots to think about--thanks again for your input! Although it is frustrating, I feel blessed to have this knowledge so we can make informed decisions.

Edited September 5, 2010 by homeschoolally

[choirfarm]

Interesting article, as I find myself marveling at just how popular the CC rage is with homeschoolers. I read a few comments, not all, but I will say that one that I totally agree with is that it does depend on the CC for sure!! I do wonder, though, as just why homeschoolers seem to regard CC as the "Holy Grail" of sorts, even though they are pretty much the same public system that is shunned for high school or grade school?? :tongue_smilie:

 

Well, for me it is to do things I cannot: Spanish, speech, college level science, computer programming and such. Also rather than going from 8-3 Monday through Friday, he will only be going 3 days a week for an hour. My son is incredibly shy and needs to start interacting with others. I see CC as a good bridge for him before he goes off to a regular college. I am not totally anti public school either, though. For us personally, homeschooling is better. But community college will help me. I just don't have time to prepare in depth for 6 to 8 classes a piece for my 3 children. There just isn't enough brain power any more. I can't learn Spanish and teach it, and learn STatistics, and learn computer programming and brush up on my English lit... plus teach multiplication to my 8 year old. I'm sorry, but I don't think community college is a cop out.

 

Christine

[Miss Marple]

Really makes me wonder if it is worth giving up freshman status and the residence and merit scholarship opportunities that go along with it--to get another few semesters in at the CC.

 

This is one of those things that is really just dependent on what university the student is considering attending. My ds graduated with 35 credit hours and still maintained freshman status and received numerous merit scholarships. So, the advice is...always check with the school.

[creekland]

Interesting article, as I find myself marveling at just how popular the CC rage is with homeschoolers. I read a few comments, not all, but I will say that one that I totally agree with is that it does depend on the CC for sure!! I do wonder, though, as just why homeschoolers seem to regard CC as the "Holy Grail" of sorts, even though they are pretty much the same public system that is shunned for high school or grade school?? My daughter is definitely interested in using CC as a stepping stone for a 4 year, mainly to save $$, but I don't see the CC we are looking at as more rigorous and certainly not better than the incredible homeschool curriculum I have to choose from to finish off her high school. We are definitely choosing to let our kids actually finish a full 4 years of High School Homeschool before they go off into the College world. BUT----if either of our kids were super advanced and really needed to take higher than high school levels in many different areas.....then I guess I would have a different take on things.

 

Sometimes I wonder if so many homeschoolers get enamored with using a CC simply because it sounds SO good to tell people that your high schooler is actually completing their college before they even get to college?! :tongue_smilie:

 

We aren't using CC as a replacement for the first two years of college nor for a 2 year degree of any sort. We're using it to have outside confirmation of ability in order to better compete for 4 year schools (and merit aid). As mentioned in another thread, for the most part, I consider them more of an honors high school course, not really as a replacement for college courses. If credits transfer, fine. If they don't, fine. Very few schools around here offer AP testing. We'll probably have to drive more than an hour just to have my middle son take AP Bio and Chem next May. We don't have the computer capability to effectively do an online course, and IMO, those aren't any better than cc (and could be worse pending class).

 

I'm also another that's not totally against ps. I substitute teach math/science in our local high school. I've reluctantly let my 9th grader return to ps at his request this year (we're afterschooling though). My main beef is the lack of higher education at our ps. Much of this is due to the system that's entrenched there coupled with too many testing days, party days, homework done in school days, and the like. Little of that occurs in cc (from our experience). The social issues they encounter at cc will not be any different than those they will encounter in college. We prefer to discuss them here rather than have them encounter them on their own later.

[Laurie4b]

I do wonder, though, as just why homeschoolers seem to regard CC as the "Holy Grail" of sorts, even though they are pretty much the same public system that is shunned for high school or grade school??

 

Sometimes I wonder if so many homeschoolers get enamored with using a CC simply because it sounds SO good to tell people that your high schooler is actually completing their college before they even get to college?! :tongue_smilie:

 

No, it's not considered the Holy Grail and no, it's not so we can tell people that our high schooler is completing college classes. Here's why CC is an important part of our homeschool:

 

I am not homeschooling to protect my children from evil influences; I am homeschooling so that we can impart our values to our children and teach them to deal with evil influences. We think that's important while they are still under our roof. So far, there haven't been cc profs who taught inappropriate material, but if we do, ds's will have to deal with that.

 

CC gives the ability for the student to be independent of the parent but in a gradual way. CC also introduces the student to the registration process, the necessity (sometimes) of hustling and getting permission from a prof to get in a class that is full, etc. IOW, they get skills they will need in college.

 

I cannot teach all high school subjects well.

 

The students I know who take a lot of AP classes in the local high school are incredibly stressed out, even very smart kids. They have tons of what I would call pure busy work. They report that college is easier when they get there. What's that about? We haven't had a cc course yet that includes busy work. That's one difference from the local p.s. I don't want stressed students because it's not good for an adolescent brain.

 

Another difference from the local p.s. is flexibility. My student is still home a lot and has more free time than if he attended p.s.

 

Our local cc's have a reputation for excellent quality. Our state flagship university, which is one of the best in the country and quite selective, publishes its research on which students do best once accepted: the group who have attended the local cc is the most dependable cohort for good performance once at the univerisity.

 

Attending cc will save us money because the courses transfer to any public college in the state. It will allow one ds to double major in music and something else and still finish on time or a little early. It will allow another ds to enter college as a sophomore--that's like a 25% scholarship. We'll take a 25% scholarship!

[ColoradoMom]

We aren't using CC as a replacement for the first two years of college nor for a 2 year degree of any sort. We're using it to have outside confirmation of ability in order to better compete for 4 year schools (and merit aid). As mentioned in another thread, for the most part, I consider them more of an honors high school course, not really as a replacement for college courses. If credits transfer, fine. If they don't, fine.

 

This is how I am leaning too. We will begin CC when he is 16 but the first semester will be entirely online so I can monitor what he is doing and explain things along the way. In addition - it is an issue with maturity and age. While my son at age 13 is far more mature than most adults I know - he should not be expected, nor will he be allowed, to traipse around with adults all day every day for 2 years while he is still considered a child.

 

The second semester of junior year he will attend school on campus for science and art. Then in senior year he will be on campus full time becasue all his classes will be science, math, and art - the stuff that really requires him to be there in person. I feel that is a good transition into the world of adult learning.

 

We will be going for an art degree for the CC stuff but his dream is a computer animation degree and I feel he needs these two years in CC to illustrate to me, and the 4 year college, that he is ready and competent to move to another state and live in his own apartment (no campus housing at this school).

 

I don't care if all of the classes transfer because this program he is looking into tailors their general ed to the kid's major - but at 500 a credit - it will be nice to shave off $10-15 thousand dollars of tuition with what he gets from CC.

Edited September 6, 2010 by ColoradoMom