Hmm...who should provide all those school supplies?

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

The crowbar has pried the very last working man's dollar out of all the wallets 'round here, and still our public schools only manage to graduate about a third of the students who don't drop out before their senior year. The local high school averages two suspensions per day for drugs or violence, every single school year.

 

If our local schools were producing American citizens who could read, write, and figure as well as demonstrate a basic knowledge of civics, geography, history, and science, I'd share my last dime to help the cause.

 

I don't see any evidence of even an attempt in that direction in our schools. I know (and am related to) many of our elementary school teachers; the good ones are dropping like flies. They can't do their job and they are heartsick about it. Their hands are tied by NCLB and other nonsense protocols. They are leaving to work in private schools or to even homeschool their own children.

 

Accountability and results would motivate my hand toward my padlocked wallet more than some misplaced, vague sense of loyalty to the local schools, or some weird idea that more money is the answer.

 

A neighboring town is bleeding the property owners absolutely dry for the schools. The people are paying it, though, because those schools seem to be working. We've considered moving there in case one of our children would like to go to high school. We'd pay those taxes for the good of America's future.

 

Schools should have to prove that they are a good investment.

[Joker]

The problem is- how do you define "all of it"? Sports arenas and practice facilities? Music/band instruments? Private boarding school for special needs kids whose needs are not best served at the local public school?

 

Or do we need to stick to academics... studies show that kids learn faster with Smart Boards and personal computers. Do we provide them for every student? What if one student keeps breaking his/her computer- do we need to keep replacing it? What about graphing calculators for high school students?

 

In my area, I feel like the crowbar has scraped a lot of wallets clean. Fortunately, we still get to vote on tax increases. For the time being, anyway.

 

I just wanted to say that I sat in on a Smart Board presentation when my dds were in ps two years ago and I didn't find it all that great. Yet, our school received a 50K grant to put them in every classroom. :001_huh: Yes, it looked like fun but I don't get how it helps anyone learn more. And there was tons of interference problems as well. If a student walked in front of the connection it would have to be reset. I can't imagine the amount of time that must be spent just fixing these things on a daily basis. It seems like such a waste.

[Hockey Mom]

Exactly.

 

Frankly, I think it is time for the taxpayers to stick a crowbar in their wallets and actually fund some things that are worth funding. If we as a society are going to require kids to attend school, then we should be willing to pay for it. All of it.

 

There are approximately 1.5 - 2 million homeschooled children in the U.S. Those families pay taxes that go to fund public schooling that their children don't attend. That number doesn't include the millions of families that pay to send their children to private schools. I think the taxpayers have paid enough. It's up to the districts to figure out a way to budget the money accordingly. Trimming down administration costs, transportation, and teacher unions, would be one way of obtaining more funds that could go toward the benefit of the children.

[nukeswife]

When my oldest was in K I had no problem providing supplies because the teacher sent a reasonable list. 1 box of crayons, 1 pack of pencils, a pencil box a notebook, a glue stick and a few other similar item. She asked that each item right down to the individual crayons were labeled with his name. She didn't buy into the "pooling of supplies" idea which all the other K teachers did. If my son was running low, like on watercolors (boy could he burn through those) she would send home a friendly note asking me to send another box, pack etc of whatever was needed.

Occasionally she'd send home a note saying they were going through a lot of tissues or baggies, and if anyone was interested in donating some that would be appreciated, but it wasn't demanded.

 

When he went to 1st grade PS they asked for

10 boxes of crayons

4 packs (24 ct.) pencils

10 boxes of markers

10 notebooks

10 folders

5 bottles of handsanitizer (for girls)

5 boxes of hand soap (for boys)

10 boxes of tissues

and a bunch of other things

This list was given to each child in a 27 child classroom. My dh saw it and asked if the school lunch program had gone under and were they going to be feeding him crayons and paper?

 

I have no problem donating a few extras to the school to use for kids that can't afford them, but to just build in such an outrageous excess was over the top. I sent him with 1 of each item and a note stating I'd gladly send things to replace them as needed and that if any students in the class were without that I would supply one of each item for up to two other children.

I mean that list would have had 270 boxes of tissues arriving to school had everyone shown up with their requested 10 boxes. I know 6 year olds can be wasteful, but come on.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

The school supply thread was interesting. There are some long, specific, budget-busting supply lists out there.

 

But, I wonder, what is the alternative? Should the teachers pay for all those Kleenex, glue sticks, colored pencils, markers, crayons, pencils, and notebooks? These are all consumable items which many schools apparently do not provide for each child. (I have, however, worked at schools were all of these items were provided by the school.)

 

How about the 'every-student-needs-one' items like graphing calculators? What about batteries for those calculators? (Lets not start a calculator argument, please...for the sake of the discussion lets assume that the graphing calculator will be used responsibly and for the students' true benefit.) Certainly these are very expensive, a real blow to a family budget. But, they are routinely used nowadays -- like computers. Same with flash drives.

 

So, what do you see as a practical alternative? Should public schools be required to provide a budget for these kinds of consumable items? For calculators, batteries, and flash drives? On one hand, these are PUBLIC schools -- where everyone can come for an equal-opportunity education; perhaps those routinely-used $130 calculators, flash-drives and endless boxes of kleenex should be part of the 'deal.' Or are these things the parents' responsibility?

 

What would you like to see? Do you think it's realistic?

 

I think that notebooks, pencils, pens, crayons, etc that are used by individual students should be provided by their families. Supply lists should be kept as general as possible (ex. Each student must bring a pencil to class every day. Notes should be taken in a spiral notebook. Written assignments will be completed in black ink on college ruled notebook paper.) If there is an explicit technical reason for needing a specific item, like a number two pencil for standardized exams, then you tell students that is what they need to bring and then you have a couple loaners for those who "forget".

 

A graphing calculator is a nice to have item, not a necessity for learning calculus, which was established long before there were calculators of any kind. If a school is going to buy into the pedagogical philosophy that students learn better when equipped with calculators at lower grade levels, then they should have classroom sets. In fact you could probably have a couple classrooms sharing a classroom set.

 

Flash drives are also personal gear. They are used to transport files from home computers to school computers sort of the way that floppies were. But a very inexpensive thumb drive should be enough for most uses unless kids are making graphics intensive powerpoint projects. My kids have one they got for free from an Army recruiter that is fine for transfering documents.

 

For students who are in upper grades, doing higher level math, set a general standard for acceptable calculator (ex. Students should have a calculator that does scientific notation, exponents and roots as well as trionometic functions. And then list several calculators that fit that bill.) We still have (and use) the calculator that dh used in high school and college. And it still solves trigonometric problems.

 

I think it's great that hand sanitizer and tissues are available. If they are provided by the school, then they should buy the giant gallon bottles with the pump top of sanitizer. Tissues can be cut rate brand, not triple ply with lotion. Students should be encouraged to carry pocket tissues (or gasp, even a handkerchief).

 

In Japan, there are often no paper towel dispensers in public bathrooms. Instead everyone carries a small lightweight cotton towel in their pocket or purse. You can buy them for about a dollar and there are plenty of kids' characters imprinted on them for school kids. I think these should be a standard item in the US, and then schools can stop stocking paper towels.

 

One of the problems with the school supply lists is that it pretty much eliminates the ability to have a stash of crayons that goes from one year to another. I don't buy new crayons for each of my kids each year with homeschooling (as much as I like the smell of new crayons). A family should have the option of stewarding supplies from year to year.

 

If there are kids whose families cannot or will not provide supplies, then that can be quietly dealt with. But not at the expense of teaching most of the kids that the tools of learning aren't worth properly caring for from year to year or that they must buy items that then get thrown into the pool or that it is ok to blow off the supply list because someone else will provide what they need.

 

Often I'd like to grab school administrators and shout, "Stop requiring all this gear and teach the kids to read."

[Sebastian (a lady)]

"Technically the taxpayers would be providing them.."

 

Of course, but isn't that the point of having free public school education? We as a society somewhere in the past decided that free education was important enough for all of us to fund using tax money.

 

I can't help wonder, though, if that is part of why schools are held in such contempt in some circles. It is easy to despise that which requires no outlay on your part to access.

 

I think that while we might have chosen to provide the school facilities, teacher salaries and equipment like computers and text books; we haven't necessarily said as a society that we're also going to provide every pencil and notebook.

 

I would happily donate supplies to kids who have an actual need. But if the kids are toting cell phones and iPods, then I think they can buy their pencils and filler paper on their own.

[OnTheBrink]

I think things like pencils, notebooks, folders, etc. should come from the parents. They shouldn't be pooled. When children have pooled supplies that seem limitless to them, they won't learn to take care of things. If a family cannot afford supplies, there should be some sort of way for those students to be provided for.

 

Cleaning supplies like paper towels should be provided by the school district (not the teacher, not the parents).

 

Teacher supplies like dry erase markers should also be supplied by the school district. A student shouldn't have to bring materials that the teacher needs to be able to teach. My work provides me with pens, a teacher's work should supply him/her with dry erase markers.

 

I don't understand why very specific supplies are required--brand name glue, types of notebooks, etc. I never had those requirements for my supplies when I was growing up. I would look at the classes I had, determine which ones needed notebooks (art, for example, doesn't need a lined paper notebook), and I would buy notebooks that I liked. If I bought an 80 page notebook and it wasn't enough, then I would have to get a new notebook in the middle of the year.

 

I completely agree. Especially about the cleaning supplies and the items specifically for the teacher. It think it's pathetic a district can't supply the pens needed for their teachers to use in the classroom.

 

When I was in elementary school in the early 70's, the lists were for crayons, pencils, writing tablets, folders, a pencil box, and I do remember taking in 1 box of kleenex for the year. In jr. high and high school, each teacher had a list, but mostly that was for specific things for that class, like a certain kind of notebook or whether you'd need a protractor and compass for math.

 

I don't mind helping out with supplies for families who have trouble affording them. I normally participate in local "stuff the bus" projects. This year, I'm helping a single friend who has 3 kids instead of the "stuff the bus" thing.

[Brilliant]

When he went to 1st grade PS they asked for

10 boxes of crayons

4 packs (24 ct.) pencils

10 boxes of markers

10 notebooks

10 folders

5 bottles of handsanitizer (for girls)

5 boxes of hand soap (for boys)

10 boxes of tissues

and a bunch of other things

This list was given to each child in a 27 child classroom. My dh saw it and asked if the school lunch program had gone under and were they going to be feeding him crayons and paper?

 

 

 

Wow! Did you send all of it? I would have refused. I would have sent only 1 each of the boxes of crayons, markers, pencils, and tissues - which is what was requested of us when my dd attended PS 1st grade. (When we withdrew her in the middle of the year to homeschool, she actually came home with her crayons and a few other things).

[joannqn]

Personally, at $10,000+ per student, I think the schools can supply the basic classroom supplies at the elementary levels and textbooks at the upper levels like they did when I was in school.

 

And those graphing calculators...we could rent or borrow one for the school year. I don't remember which because my parents bought me one. Our textbooks, even in high school, were supplied. The advanced, honors, and AP classes had to lug their books to and from home (my bag was 30lbs...no lockers) though there were a few available if you forgot your book. The lower level classes had class sets so those kids got to keep their books at home.

[Mrs. Frankweiler]

I went to private, Catholic school in the 80's, and I always had to bring in my own supplies. I think the lists were pretty basic....notebook paper, crayons, scissors, glue, etc.... There was a "book fee" and hardback books were rented and returned at the end of the year.

 

In high school, graphing calculators were just coming into the picture...the idea was buy one if you can, otherwise remember how to do the work without one. (which was me!)

 

Later on, I taught in a Catholic school and teachers were given free reign on their lists. We were basically told, "Ask for whatever you want on the lists....make the parents buy it." My first year, I "inherited" the list from the former teacher, and I was quite overwhelmed. Where do I put the 100 boxes of kleenex, 60 canisters of wipes, etc...? Storage was quite a dilemma. I had visions of kids stretching over the mountains of kleenex to see the chalkboard. ;) Again, this was a private school, but it looks like ps teachers are also getting the same memo.

 

At the school where I taught, the budget was very tight, but you didn't see the kind of waste that you see at public schools. I think most Catholic schools are in that situation. Their funds are very limited. I've read the cost per public school student in other posts and the numbers sound astronomical, but believable, to me. My dad has some contracts with the public school system in his county, and he's always talking about the waste. Perfectly good furniture thrown out for TEAK furniture. Every week there is a school surplus sale where the public can buy the stuff teachers and schools throw out. I bought a perfectly good student desk for ONE DOLLAR! (It's great for the cheap homeschool mom, but you can't help but recognize the waste.) I think there is a typical budget mentality of "Use every penny this year, or next year you'll get less" so there's a lot of waste.

 

I don't mind my tax dollars going to special education students as much as I hate them going to buy teak furniture! :glare:

[Laura Corin]

When I was at school, all the supplies that stayed in school were provided by the school; everything that was personal and often went home was supplied by the pupil. So board markers, etc., were school supplies, but pens, calculators, etc. were personal supplies.

 

Laura

[kahlanne]

I haven't read all of the posts but wanted to respond. Our school has a huge supply list required each year. My son's 5th grade supply list cost me right at $75 this year. It was more last year but I was able to get many of the items from the Dollar Tree. Yes, we too had to buy ziploc bags, paper towels, and baby wipes. They were even specific to the brand or number of some items. For instance, they wanted crayola 10 count markers which isn't sold by the DT and the jumbo 5 jumbo size glue sticks. DT sells the name brand small glue sticks that come in sets of three to a pack but no jumbos. My daughter, 9th grade, doesn't get her school list until the first day of school. They start next Friday and we have the weekend to race around finding exactly what they want down to certain color of notebooks/folders. Oh, and we even had to buy highlighters and red pens. (only saw proof during the year that teacher's used these) Last year when I couldnt' get as much from DT, I ended up spending $230 on supplies for the two of them. The school also has a $30 supply fee for each student requirred on the first day of school. Without paying they can't go on trips, get their textbooks, etc. For each elective club or class they have their own fee. Most clubs are in the $15-20 range (Christian Fellowship, Beta, etc), class fees are $7-12 range (chem $12, computer lab $7, etc), and gym class uniforms are $17 this year. This doesn't include the price of our uniforms.

 

One of the things that bother me most about all the fees, supply lists, etc is in elementary school the teachers take up the school supplies and hand them out as needed. When you are requirred to bring 4 packs of pencils, you can only keep 2 pencils. If she sees that you need another she will get them out of the "group" supply. Some people do not bring their supplies and my kid's make up the difference. There have been times in the past that a note has went home stating they are out of something that was on the list and need everyone to purchase more. This happened last year with pencils. My son had to bring another pack during the year because the 144 pencils were not enough. Not only that, if they have a home project, they can't bring their supplies home to complete it. Basically, I have to have an entire set of colors, markers, paper, etc at home for any assignments and this isn't included in the supply list yearly. Makes me wonder what exactly the $30 supply fee covers but the schools won't give a direct answer.

[Xander]

I don't think it's unreasonable for schools to expect kids to bring their own pens, pencils and so on, but they should be for their own use rather than for a general pool. Then kids who take care of their things can use most of them all the way through school.

 

At my school we had to have our own dictionary, Bible, atlas and hymnbooks (specific editions of each) which we used every year. We also had to have a scientific calculator (from about 6th grade onwards), ruler, protractor, set square, compass, pencils, eraser, pencil sharpener, a few colored pencils, a fountain pen and some blue or black ink or ink cartridges. If we needed ring binders we had to bring our own, but they could be any type.

The only new supplies needed each year were a couple of pencils and some more ink cartridges - not an onerous burden even for the least well-off families.

 

Subject notebooks were supplied by the school and were color-coded (orange for math, yellow for English, beige for physics, etc.). We were given one for each subject - when we filled it up, we'd be given a replacement, but if we lost it we'd have to pay for a replacement. For most subjects (at least below 11th grade), we did our prep in them, so the color-coding allowed teachers to see at a glance if someone had turned in the wrong book.

We were also given a single rough notebook (the sort that wouldn't take fountain pen) to use for rough work across all subjects.

Textbooks were issued for free, but if you lost or damaged one you would have to pay for a replacement.

 

Giving kids access to an unlimited supply of things (either from a shared pool or directly from the school) doesn't teach them to take care of their stuff and make it last.

 

Also, all written work had to be done with a fountain pen (apart from pencil-drawn diagrams where appropriate) and we were taught from the start that you should never lend anyone else your pen or borrow anyone else's as the nib adjusts to your handwriting. Pooled resources and annual replacements don't really fit with that approach as you need to use /your/ pen, not just any pen. Having bought one you like and broken it in, you want to be able to keep using the same one from year to year.

[kahlanne]

I wanted to add, my daughter had an art teacher that told us at orientation that she didn't believe in a supply fee for her class nor a list. She stated we already pay a school wide supply fee of $30 and what that didn't cover she provided but would accept donations. I loved that about her and this is the one teacher I actually donated to. I love that it was optional. I had another teacher send home a note for money to buy supplies. She didn't ask or explain but told us it was our duty and requirred. I refused! Well, until they wouldn't allow my dd on the next field trip without paying it.

[Heather in AL]

There are approximately 1.5 - 2 million homeschooled children in the U.S. Those families pay taxes that go to fund public schooling that their children don't attend. That number doesn't include the millions of families that pay to send their children to private schools. I think the taxpayers have paid enough. It's up to the districts to figure out a way to budget the money accordingly. Trimming down administration costs, transportation, and teacher unions, would be one way of obtaining more funds that could go toward the benefit of the children.

 

Yes, this. To the above, you can add the childless and the retired who also pay taxes for something they don't 'use'.

 

I won't go into the waste I see overall in the schools ($60 million schools?) since that is a whole 'nother rant!

 

We have completed four years of hsing, and before that, the kids were in public with one year of private. I was FLOORED when the private (very high tuition!) required a supply list!! The supply lists were incredible. I didn't know the supplies were 'pooled' and labeled everything I could for my ds in first grade. I recieved a 'nasty gram' from the teacher. By the time ds was in 4th grade, I had had it. The waste was incredible, AND as room mom for dd's K class, I had learned that the list was actually made up by the central office, and that the teachers didn't usually use most of what was requested, so I *chose* what to buy and asked the teacher specifically what they wanted. It was amazing what I didn't need to send!!

 

For the heck of it, I just checked our local school lists. They have been 'pared down' since I last looked four years ago. The biggest change I noticed was that 'brand names' have been removed. The purpose of that was so all the kids had Crayola, and some wouldn't grab a Crayola from the community box and some would be 'stuck' with the cheaper (i.e. poor kid's) Rose Art. I was told this point blank by the above-mentioned K teacher.

 

When ds was in 4th grade, he needed (among many other things!) specific colors of a 2" binder, plastic dividers with pockets in certain colors (which meant buyinig more than one pack because of the color combination), dry-erase markers (Expo, chisel tipped, non-neon colors, low odor, blah blah blah), and an eraser. 30 kids in a class, and they need 30 erasers?!?! Thankfully, the teacher requested socks--- they work better and are MUCH cheaper to replace. Plus, they take up almost NO room in the storage box. I also remember being ticked off that I had to buy scissors every year, AND a new plastic pencil box every year AND a new pencil pouch every year.... finally, when dc were in grades 5 and 3 (our LAST year of this madness!), I recycled from home. I didn't have to buy too much of anything... the kids were OK with it, too, as even THEY saw how much was sent home not used, and how we had six pencil boxes, a bajillion barely used crayons, etc. It's madness.

 

I agree with previous posters who say that if a child is responsible for *their own* items, things are not wasted as much. I can't tell you how many times I walked into my dd's K class and saw the same three or four boys just sharpening their pencils down to nubs "just because" (using their own personal pencil sharpeners, no less!).

 

I am SO GLAD to be out of that mess!!! And don't get me started on this whole 'folder for each class of a certain color' mess---- how do our kids learn to be organized if they aren't able to devlop their own method? I was in school in the 70s and 80s and I remember bringing a Trapper Keeper to class in Elem and Middle--- if I lost something, it was *my fault* and a note went home and my grade could suffer. I am firmly of the belief that these supply lists are way more costly than they need to be and that it is a direct recult of the whole not letting a child fail/every child is a winner method of thinking that has been growing by leaps and bounds over the last few decades. The kids aren't learning to be responsible for their own things, therefore, they don't treat things appropriately. Give them guidance and tips on organization, but let THEM develop their own organization methods... otherwise, they'll never learn that skill---one more example of kids in school being made into non-thinking automatons.

 

Oh, and I made it through middle school, high school, and college Calc. with a $20 Casio calculator--- I never even KNEW graphing calculators existed!!

 

Wow--- amazing that a topic like this can get me so worked up! :tongue_smilie:

[Ellie]

I think that would be easier if they were being responsible with the funds they already had.

:iagree:

 

Besides, I don't see why the school should provide consummables like notebook paper and pencils and whatnot. Textbooks and other instructional materials, desks, safe and clean buildings, well-qualified teachers--that's what my tax dollars should be spent on.

 

In California, the state spends a truckload of money on sending teachers to conventions at luxurious hotels so they can take enrichment classes. I resent that :glare: especially when some schools can't seem to afford for children to have their own textbooks. What's up with that??

[Melinda in VT]

Our school doesn't send home a school supply list until 5th grade. Until then, the school provides the supplies. Starting in 5th grade, students are responsible for providing their own supplies. And they really are theirs. This corresponds with the gradual increase in expectations and independence in other areas of their education.

 

One note about dry-erase markers and erasers: I know in my kids' school, during math lesson time in the younger grades, the kids sit on the floor with dry erase boards and markers and work practice problems that way. Once the concept is taught and the teacher feels confident they have it, the kids do work on paper.

[EKS]

There are approximately 1.5 - 2 million homeschooled children in the U.S. Those families pay taxes that go to fund public schooling that their children don't attend. That number doesn't include the millions of families that pay to send their children to private schools. I think the taxpayers have paid enough. It's up to the districts to figure out a way to budget the money accordingly. Trimming down administration costs, transportation, and teacher unions, would be one way of obtaining more funds that could go toward the benefit of the children.

 

Just to point out--there are *lots* of things we pay taxes for that we don't use directly. However, we *as a society* have decided that school is so important that it should be provided as a public service. We believe that an educated citizenry is essential for the public good. If this is the case, we need to fund it appropriately.

 

I'm not saying that I think schools are using all of their funds wisely. I'm not saying that I think that all government spending is wonderfully efficient. And I'm not saying that I think the schools are doing a great job.

[vonfirmath]

Just to point out--there are *lots* of things we pay taxes for that we don't use directly. However, we *as a society* have decided that school is so important that it should be provided as a public service. We believe that an educated citizenry is essential for the public good. If this is the case, we need to fund it appropriately.

 

I'm not saying that I think schools are using all of their funds wisely. I'm not saying that I think that all government spending is wonderfully efficient. And I'm not saying that I think the schools are doing a great job.

 

If you aren't responding to the context of his "not giving the government any more money" then I wonder why you are bothering arguing at all?

 

I did not see the original post as saying we should NEVER give the government money but rather someone else implied we needed to give the government more money for our schools and taxpayers were being stingy in not wanting to and he was responding directly to that -- the existing use of taxpayer funds for existing schools does not justify more money being spent in that direction.

[Hockey Mom]

Just to point out--there are *lots* of things we pay taxes for that we don't use directly. However, we *as a society* have decided that school is so important that it should be provided as a public service. We believe that an educated citizenry is essential for the public good. If this is the case, we need to fund it appropriately.

I'm not saying that I think schools are using all of their funds wisely. I'm not saying that I think that all government spending is wonderfully efficient. And I'm not saying that I think the schools are doing a great job.

 

I believe it is already being funded appropriately. I also believe that corruption, greed, and general mishandling of funds is what has led us to $100 supply lists, per child.

 

In addition to taxes paid by the citizens, there are places like Target and Box Tops that give money to schools. In Florida, we have lottery money that is supposed to go toward schools. Where is all of that money going that parents are still expected to fund their own child's supplies in addition to the teacher's classroom supplies?

 

I don't begrudge people making a living in the educational field. In fact, I think it's a rather noble profession. However, in our neck of the woods, we have bus drivers making $60k/year. http://www.fox4now.com/Global/story.asp?S=12482256

 

I have no problem paying taxes to educate the children. I just happen to think we pay enough. Now it's up to the superintendents (making roughly $175k a year without stepping foot in a classroom) to budget that money accordingly.

[EKS]

We keep throwing more and more money at schools because that is what we are told will solve all of the problems.

 

Maybe things are different where I live. Our district has had its budget cut by millions of dollars each year for the past few years. On a per pupil basis, our district's budget is among the lowest in a state that is among the lowest in the nation. And it is against the law for the district to raise funds for certain essential operations locally. It's crazy.

 

The original question was whether or not school supplies should be provided by the school. I believe that things like pencils and paper and crayons should be provided for use in school by students. I believe that if calculators are required for a class then they should be provided (but should stay at school). Of course, I also believe that the school day should be extended to allow time for homework completion.

[Heather in AL]

Just to point out--there are *lots* of things we pay taxes for that we don't use directly. However, we *as a society* have decided that school is so important that it should be provided as a public service. We believe that an educated citizenry is essential for the public good. If this is the case, we need to fund it appropriately.

 

I'm not saying that I think schools are using all of their funds wisely. I'm not saying that I think that all government spending is wonderfully efficient. And I'm not saying that I think the schools are doing a great job.

 

I took Hockey Mom's post to mean that with the number of people who pay into the system but don't use it, there should be ample money since there is more money being paid in than kids attending. I do see how the post cold be read both ways, though (and am now not sure my own understanding is what she meant), and I agree with the point you made about things we all pay for, but don't use.

 

I believe it is already being funded appropriately. I also believe that corruption, greed, and general mishandling of funds is what has led us to $100 supply lists, per child.

 

In addition to taxes paid by the citizens, there are places like Target and Box Tops that give money to schools. In Florida, we have lottery money that is supposed to go toward schools. Where is all of that money going that parents are still expected to fund their own child's supplies in addition to the teacher's classroom supplies?

 

I don't begrudge people making a living in the educational field. In fact, I think it's a rather noble profession. However, in our neck of the woods, we have bus drivers making $60k/year. http://www.fox4now.com/Global/story.asp?S=12482256

 

I have no problem paying taxes to educate the children. I just happen to think we pay enough. Now it's up to the superintendents (making roughly $175k a year without stepping foot in a classroom) to budget that money accordingly.

 

Again, I completely agree. We are in an affluent area, and as such, residents want 'fancy'. It makes me ill. We don't need schools with a 'buffet' lunch counter complete with neon signs and a 'courtyard' for relaxing. The schools I attended were cinderblock and painted in whatever color was the cheapest. In some places, a person could count the payers of paint. I learned just fine, thank you very much. All this computer stuff is fine and dandy, but, IMO, not necessary. At the rate kids pick up on technology, I don't see why it's needed in the lower grades in such quantities. Regular pencil & paper is also fine for learning math. Third graders don't need to do PP presentations. Just my opinion, but there it is. Also, I *despise* the waste in classes--- colored printer paper for weekly notes home. Copies of so much babble. The incredible use (and expense!) of the Sizzix shape cutting machines when the kids just throw the stuff out. It's endless, and it all adds up.

 

I agree. We keep throwing more and more money at schools because that is what we are told will solve all of the problems. They keep asking more and more of parents. And somehow there is less and less available for children's everyday needs in the classroom?

 

I wouldn't get in a tizzy about crayons and pencils. But when teachers start asking for cleaning supplies I just don't get it. The school doesn't buy any cleaning supplies? In school we cleaned our desks. We had a bottle of cleaning spray of some sort and some paper towels provided by the school. We didn't need 30 tubs of disinfecting wipes.

 

And then the insane waste. Like teachers who ask for 100 count boxes of Ziploc bags. Do we really NEED to waste that many plastic bags? What on earth for? What is the backpack for? Why not encourage reusable pencil boxes or other such things to store stuff?

 

Ugh.. Every year this topic drives me nuts. I don't know what the answer is. I just want to know why there was enough money when I went to school for schools to purchase paper towels and crayons, but now there isn't.

 

I completely agree. In the neighboring city, they are having a problem with the schools and the NCLB underperforming schools. The city keeps throwing money at these underperforming (and under attended!) schools. I just read that one of the schools just built a full sized courtroom mock up to learn how court proceedings work. ??? I read about it and watched a few movies. The city also keeps throwing money at the schools in other ways, while the top-performing school is struggling because lack of funding. I will be a happy camper when someone finally wakes up and admits that throwing money at the problem isn't the solution.

 

And like Wendy (and many more of you, I'm sure) I *despise* seeing the zip lock bags on supply lists. To say I cringe at the thought of all that landfill mess is an understatement.

 

And on the topic of cleaning supplies.... the last year my kids were in ps (grades 3 and 5), I learned that one of the reasons the school wanted so much hand sanitizer is because there was no soap in the bathrooms. Yes, you read that right. The kids didn't wash their hands after being in there. Not even right before lunch. It made me ILL. They would hit the bathrooms, and the designated 'sanitizer' stood in the hall and as the kids came out, they would each get one 'pump'. :glare: The reason for not having soap? The kids (not just the boys, but the girls, too) would use all the soap and flood the bathrroms with it, throw it on the mirrors, etc. This was a safety hazard so soap was pulled from the schools.

[Hockey Mom]

I took Hockey Mom's post to mean that with the number of people who pay into the system but don't use it, there should be ample money since there is more money being paid in than kids attending.

 

Yes, that is exactly what I meant. I apologize if I was unclear with my wording. :)

[Heather in AL]

The original question was whether or not school supplies should be provided by the school. I believe that things like pencils and paper and crayons should be provided for use in school by students. I believe that if calculators are required for a class then they should be provided (but should stay at school). Of course, I also believe that the school day should be extended to allow time for homework completion.

 

You posted while I was rambling (and, yes, straying from the OP's question~~~sorry OP!!). :D

 

I agree that if something is 'required', then it should fall on the schools to provide it.

 

I also agree with you that homework should be completed at school (or at least be *necessary* to reinforce something learned at school, not to do the work that *should* have been done at school.

[Mama Geek]

I haven't read all 8 pages so this might have been addressed...what about all the school supplies that are donated? Everywhere I have worked in corporate America takes up collections for school supplies. Do these never make it to the schools?

[edithcrawley]

Back when I was in school (mid 90s through 2007), we were required to bring our own supplies. It was pretty basic stuff (notebooks, pencils, pens, crayons, colored pencils, paper, folders, etc.) We were given extra credit for bringing tissues and stuff like that (after a while, the district didn't allow teachers to give extra credit for tissues anymore, but the teachers got around that by having us write something on the boxes that was related to the class (like a math proof or something)).

 

We didn't have pooled supplies in any classes, if you ran out of stuff you had to buy more during the year. They had a donation box so that the students who couldn't afford supplies would have some of their own to use. While the school supplies weren't too expensive, we also had a book rental fee each year. In elementary, I think it was only about $100 or so, but during high school, it was a lot more money. We didn't get any part of the rental fee back when we returned the books to the school.

[Kirch]

Ideally, I think parents should provide consumable items for their students, i.e. pencils, paper, kleenex, calculators, flash drives, etc.

 

I think schools should supply non-consumables.

 

I do not think teachers should have to buy any supplies with their own money.

 

I think it's probably a good idea for schools to keep several graphing calculators on hand for students to use in the classroom.

 

I would like to see more back to school drives. I enjoy contributing to these and it's very easy and inexpensive to do so with all of the back to school sales going on this time of year.

 

I've seen threads complaining about the cost of school supplies. Excluding uniforms, bus fees, extracurriculars, etc., basic supplies are not that expensive. I don't see what the fuss is about. :confused:

 

I think the fuss is mostly about lists like this:

 

When my oldest was in K I had no problem providing supplies because the teacher sent a reasonable list. 1 box of crayons, 1 pack of pencils, a pencil box a notebook, a glue stick and a few other similar item. She asked that each item right down to the individual crayons were labeled with his name. She didn't buy into the "pooling of supplies" idea which all the other K teachers did. If my son was running low, like on watercolors (boy could he burn through those) she would send home a friendly note asking me to send another box, pack etc of whatever was needed.

Occasionally she'd send home a note saying they were going through a lot of tissues or baggies, and if anyone was interested in donating some that would be appreciated, but it wasn't demanded.

 

When he went to 1st grade PS they asked for

10 boxes of crayons

4 packs (24 ct.) pencils

10 boxes of markers

10 notebooks

10 folders

5 bottles of handsanitizer (for girls)

5 boxes of hand soap (for boys)

10 boxes of tissues

and a bunch of other things

This list was given to each child in a 27 child classroom. My dh saw it and asked if the school lunch program had gone under and were they going to be feeding him crayons and paper?

 

I have no problem donating a few extras to the school to use for kids that can't afford them, but to just build in such an outrageous excess was over the top. I sent him with 1 of each item and a note stating I'd gladly send things to replace them as needed and that if any students in the class were without that I would supply one of each item for up to two other children.

I mean that list would have had 270 boxes of tissues arriving to school had everyone shown up with their requested 10 boxes. I know 6 year olds can be wasteful, but come on.

 

 

I don't hear many parents complaining about buying standard supplies that their children will actually be using, but 10 boxes of crayons? I think it's the excessive quantities, requiring brand-specific items, and asking for things that most believe should reasonably be supplied by the school (toilet paper, teacher supplies, etc.) that bother people.

 

When you add in the supplies that are more than what your own child will use (and you can't be frugal because a specific brand is required) and the teaching supplies/necessities (some of which can be rather expensive, like a pack of dry erase markers), it adds up. And then you still have to take care of any fees, clothes, extra curriculars, etc.

[mommaduck]

When I attended (80's and 90's), the kids' families were responsible for certain items and the school for other items. These items varied from school to school. Generally tissues and dial soap were combined into one closet. Pencils, scissors, crayons, and even glue/paste were kept in the child's desk or cubby. Construction paper, tape, and paper towels were always the schools' responsibility.

 

I have a problem of classrooms that combine ALL supplies and then the non consumable supplies "disappear" at the end of the year and the teachers ask the next year to supply them as well (scissors being an example). I understand that scissors eventually get worn out or lost, but not that many that quickly. The kids should be able to keep some of their supplies and I remember how fun it was when/if a parent was able to buy personalised (themed or name) items in a kit for their children to have for school (Hello Kitty and other Japanese characters were really popular when I was a kid in Guam).

Edited July 29, 2010 by mommaduck

[naturegirl7]

I do think the school should be prividing basic supplies like art supplies for art classes, kleenex for classrooms, microscopes and shared lab supplies, etc.

 

I think that personal supplies like notebooks, pencils, pens, calculators, personal lab kits - those are PERSONAL supplies and should be supplied by the student.

 

the graphing calculators are used in advanced level math, you need to expect that advanced classes will require advanced supplies. Since it is something that students will also need for college, I do not see it as unreasonable to ask students to purchase it in HS. Especially since it is something that is necessary to bring home and use for homework - increasing the chances it could be lost, damaged, etc. Plus it is known well in advance, so you have the entire summer to save up for one, borrow one, etc.

[mommaduck]

Though I agree that parents should buy the calcs if possible, I do think it would be nice for schools to provide them on campus as well for those whose parents really can't afford them or refuse to buy them.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think this is a slippery slope. It will be interesting to see what happens with this arrangement over the next 5-10 years.

 

A slippery slope because faith communities are allowed to give generously of their time and money?

 

Or because the school will get used to not having to budget for maintenance and further reduce the budget in these areas?

 

I've read of too many schools with horrible conditions where parents and community groups who want to do basic repairs are not allowed to because that work MUST be done by a unionized school employee. I don't quibble that construction, electrical and plumbing should be done by people who are qualified and accountable. But painting? Mounting bulletin boards? Restoring playgrounds? I think it's great that community groups and parent groups do this.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Just to point out--there are *lots* of things we pay taxes for that we don't use directly. However, we *as a society* have decided that school is so important that it should be provided as a public service. We believe that an educated citizenry is essential for the public good. If this is the case, we need to fund it appropriately.

 

I'm not saying that I think schools are using all of their funds wisely. I'm not saying that I think that all government spending is wonderfully efficient. And I'm not saying that I think the schools are doing a great job.

 

That is correct. I pay for police and fire protection, even though I pray that I will seldom require their services. But I expect that the budget for the police station will cover the items necessary for police business from the structure to the radios to the safety gear. I don't expect that I will have to bring a ream of paper in order to get a copy of the police report.

 

But I also don't expect that the police department will provide me with a cell phone so I can call them, or locks on my door to secure my property. I don't expect the fire department to bring me a smoke detector or to come and check the batteries once a year (although many departments do have free smoke detectors for those who can't afford them).

 

There do have to be things that rest in personal responsibility. I think that at least some of the cost of becoming an educated person should rest with the individual. There can be appropriate funding that doesn't cover personal items.

 

(I need to get off the computer. It's like I'm channeling PQR this morning.);)

[phathui5]

WISH LIST: If you can help out by sending any of these items, I would greatly appreciate it!

o Dry erase markers

o Tissue

o Hand sanitizer

o Clorox wipes

o Index cards

o Colored computer paper

o White computer paper"

 

 

These things should definitely be purchased by the school, not the parents or teachers. Schools certainly get enough money per student. Where the heck is it going?

 

Last I checked, the funding for the 'typical' student in my area was just over $2000. Per student.

 

That seems very low. When I lived in Baltimore, it was over $9000/student. I don't know what it is here in NY.

Edited July 30, 2010 by phathui5

[nukeswife]

Wow! Did you send all of it? I would have refused. I would have sent only 1 each of the boxes of crayons, markers, pencils, and tissues - which is what was requested of us when my dd attended PS 1st grade. (When we withdrew her in the middle of the year to homeschool, she actually came home with her crayons and a few other things).

 

No, I sent him with 1 of each item and a note stating I'd gladly send things to replace them as needed and that if any students in the class were without that I would supply one of each item for up to two other children.

 

I didn't mind helping out a child in need, but didn't think I needed to supply almost half the class at one shot.

[PiCO]

A slippery slope because faith communities are allowed to give generously of their time and money?

 

Yes.

 

I have no problem in theory with faith communities giving generously. However, it seems like any group giving time and money eventually wants some favors in return. Maybe they want to bless the new playground that they paid for and put in. (How do you say no to that?) They want to help with more construction, but now they want to put bible verses on the playground, or on the walls in the school. How can you say no to a group that is so helpful? The school might feel like the work won't get done if they don't OK the church's wishes. Pretty soon non-christians feel pretty uncomfortable in that school.

 

I don't think that is definitely going to be the case, but I think it has the potential.

[Nakia]

Yes.

 

I have no problem in theory with faith communities giving generously. However, it seems like any group giving time and money eventually wants some favors in return. Maybe they want to bless the new playground that they paid for and put in. (How do you say no to that?) They want to help with more construction, but now they want to put bible verses on the playground, or on the walls in the school. How can you say no to a group that is so helpful? The school might feel like the work won't get done if they don't OK the church's wishes. Pretty soon non-christians feel pretty uncomfortable in that school.

 

I don't think that is definitely going to be the case, but I think it has the potential.

 

I've been trying to think of an answer to your response about a slippery slope for a few days. I can definitely understand why you would be hesitant in this situation. But right now there is a need, and the churches can fill it. I don't know what it will look like in the future, but right now this is about being Jesus to the world. This is the straight from the book of Matthew. Jesus spoke of ministering to "the least of these". That's what this is all about. I may have on rose-colored glasses, but I can't see our church ever wanting favors from the public school in return. Our church happens to host a private Christian school in our buildings, so if they feel the need to write bible verses on the walls, they can do it there.

 

And I'm not specifically addressing you PiCo, but isn't this what is asked all the time: Why do the churches preach about giving, but you don't see them out doing anything?

Edited July 30, 2010 by Nakia

[EKS]

That is correct. I pay for police and fire protection, even though I pray that I will seldom require their services. But I expect that the budget for the police station will cover the items necessary for police business from the structure to the radios to the safety gear. I don't expect that I will have to bring a ream of paper in order to get a copy of the police report.

 

But I also don't expect that the police department will provide me with a cell phone so I can call them, or locks on my door to secure my property. I don't expect the fire department to bring me a smoke detector or to come and check the batteries once a year (although many departments do have free smoke detectors for those who can't afford them).

 

There do have to be things that rest in personal responsibility. I think that at least some of the cost of becoming an educated person should rest with the individual. There can be appropriate funding that doesn't cover personal items.

 

(I need to get off the computer. It's like I'm channeling PQR this morning.);)

 

The difference is that you are not *required* to call the police.

[emubird]

When my kids were in school, a large part of the problem with keeping the classroom supplied was that kids stole stuff. I don't know what they did with it, but all kinds of things disappeared. Was the local pawn shop dealing in school supplies? The teacher had to buy his own stopwatches to implement a new reading program the school had bought (don't get me going on why you need stopwatches to teach reading). The stop watches all disappeared within a week.

 

Although, one year, one of the kids was found out. When the teacher cleaned out the kid's locker there were nearly a thousand pencils in there.

 

And as an aside -- my own calculator leanings: Really, by the time a kid is in high school, they should know how to use a calculator. I can't tell you how many people I knew in grad school who couldn't manage basic manipulations on a calculator. So it does make sense to introduce a calculator early, as long as kids are expected to do enough of their math without it that they don't HAVE to have a calculator when they're adults. (Although when you get into really advanced math, a calculator doesn't help that much anyway.)

 

You really don't "need" a calculator for the SAT. I suppose if you're going to answer a lot of questions by plugging in all the available answers (as suggested by the prep books) then it might save some time, but the math itself isn't really calculator heavy.

[kahlanne]

For those that have a supply fee, does your school also charge particular class fees and also an additional supply fee? Mine does. My son's supply fee cost me $75 this year purchasing many items at Dollar Tree. Last year both his and his sisters, 4th and 8th grade, cost me over $200 on supplies. It is very brand specific as well. In addition, clubs have their own fees, understandably, and specific classes have fees, computer, chemistry, p.e. uniform, art, some math, etc. In addition to the class fee and extensive supply list, we also have to pay a "supply fee" of $30 per kid. If they don't pay, they can't receive their books, use the library, or go on field trips. Ridiculous! My ninth grader doesnt' get her supply fee until the first day of school yet. I expect to pay between $350-$400 for my 5th and 9th grader to "start" school. (Ds is in one club and dd in two.)Add the cost of uniforms and I am spending $700 easily for this "free education."

[Dmmetler]

Here's an example from our local schools that just felt like it had slid a little too far down that slope.

 

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/jul/28/working-together/

[msjones]

OP here.

 

Here's my perspective.

 

It is so frustrating to be teaching a lesson and have to stop because one or several children do not have lined papaer (or glue, or an eraser, or whatever). It takes away from teaching time to have to dig up those supplies for students. It takes quite a bit of time to keep track of who needs what and to communicate that to parents. And, of course, it costs money for the teacher to provide them herself.

 

So, I think that for many teachers it seems easiest and most practical to over-ask for supplies and then pool them. I'm not saying that's a great way to do things, but I think it eliminates a lot of aggravation and wasted time.

 

Also, the 20 sharpened pencil thing... I do understand that. Our classrooms have crummy, noisy (!), old-fashioned pencil-sharpeners that seem to consume pencils. It is easy for an adult to quickly lose half a pencil while trying to get an even point. Children regularly 'lose' entire pencils while sharpening them. And the noise from 25 kids sharpening pencils throughout the day is considerable. :glare:

 

Also, the "no Roseart" thing.... I understand that, too. Those Roseart supplies are lower quality than many other brands. The markers are often already dry-ish on the first day of school. The colored pencils break easily and don't sharpen well. The glue seems to clog constantly. Ugh.

 

Anyhow...I'm not saying it's right, or best, or ideal for teachers to send out those mammoth lists. But, I can see the teacher's perspective.

[cin]

This got me curious, so I went and looked up what my 4th grader would need to bring. I think they are doing some weird hyper-organization there. 6 2 pocket folders; Specific colors for specific subjects. And a purple one for homework. 1 1" 3 ring binder wiht 5 plastic tabs. 1 wide ruled composition notebook, and 2 wide ruled 1 subject notebooks (yellow and red). And 2 packs of paper. Oh, and 1 pair of POINTED FISKARS scissors. It is very specific on some things. 1 PINK eraser. etc.

 

the 5th grade list requests a ream of printer paper.

 

1st grade, I have a few more issues with. I feel like I would be supplying the teacher with her basic work tools. And stuff for the WHOLE class. 10-12 large glue sticks (elmer's or ross) 24 sharpened pencils. Again, 4 2 pocket folders. and 1" binder, 2 spiral notebooks, a clipboard? 2 thin dry erase markers, and a pakc of any size sticky notes?

 

Very interesting. VERY interesting. And we pay PRIMO taxes around here. I know some homeschoolers who hav actually moved to a neighboring district (it really does suck) because of the taxes. We have discussed it. At least for the suburbs in the midwest, they are HIGH. (There are some neighborhoods that are just MEANT to be high. This is not one of them).

[PiCO]

I've been trying to think of an answer to your response about a slippery slope for a few days. I can definitely understand why you would be hesitant in this situation. But right now there is a need, and the churches can fill it. I don't know what it will look like in the future, but right now this is about being Jesus to the world. This is the straight from the book of Matthew. Jesus spoke of ministering to "the least of these". That's what this is all about. I may have on rose-colored glasses, but I can't see our church ever wanting favors from the public school in return. Our church happens to host a private Christian school in our buildings, so if they feel the need to write bible verses on the walls, they can do it there.

 

I agree, there is a need and I think it's appropriate for churches to fill this need.

 

However, I have seen "filling a need" turn into proselytizing. What I've seem happen is the people who set up the program step down from the administration, and the people who step up to help out have alterior motives (conversion of the unchurched.)

 

 

And I'm not specifically addressing you PiCo, but isn't this what is asked all the time: Why do the churches preach about giving, but you don't see them out doing anything?

 

I'm glad you weren't addressing me, because most churches in my area are always out doing things (helping out the needy.)

[Smithie]

I do not think that public school students should be expected to bring in one. single. solitary. item. to be used in the completion of their academic work. I pay taxes for the purpose of offering a free and appropriate public education to all of the children in my school district. Free. FREE. If the budget can't cover markers and glue sticks, redo the budget and/or raise the taxes.

 

But since things are as they are, I think it is appropriate for all kinds of external organizations (religious or otherwise) to step up and try to fill the gap. Because NOTHING is more inappropriate than hitting up low-income families for a cartload of consumable school supplies.

[PiCO]

But since things are as they are, I think it is appropriate for all kinds of external organizations (religious or otherwise) to step up and try to fill the gap. Because NOTHING is more inappropriate than hitting up low-income families for a cartload of consumable school supplies.

 

In my area, anyone in the free/reduced lunch program does not have to pay for or bring anything.

[Caroline]

The clipboard and thin dry erase markers will be used to save paper. Handwriting practice, math facts, copywork, and othe things can be done with the dry erase makers on laminated papers. These laminated papers can be reused. The clipboard is to hold the paper still. Laminated paper is slippery.

 

Post-it notes can be used to help edit students' papers. They can also be used for a number of sorting activities, games, and sending quick notes home.

 

We are in an area with a high tax base. Laws do not allow us to keep all our property taxes here. They are spread to the poorer counties.

 

The specific folder colors work well. Everyone get out your blue math folder. Color coding works very well for many students with learning issues. Parents know to look for things in the purple folder to help with and return. Folders that go back and forth in backpacks everyday often need replacing halfway through the school year.

 

This got me curious, so I went and looked up what my 4th grader would need to bring. I think they are doing some weird hyper-organization there. 6 2 pocket folders; Specific colors for specific subjects. And a purple one for homework. 1 1" 3 ring binder wiht 5 plastic tabs. 1 wide ruled composition notebook, and 2 wide ruled 1 subject notebooks (yellow and red). And 2 packs of paper. Oh, and 1 pair of POINTED FISKARS scissors. It is very specific on some things. 1 PINK eraser. etc.

 

the 5th grade list requests a ream of printer paper.

 

1st grade, I have a few more issues with. I feel like I would be supplying the teacher with her basic work tools. And stuff for the WHOLE class. 10-12 large glue sticks (elmer's or ross) 24 sharpened pencils. Again, 4 2 pocket folders. and 1" binder, 2 spiral notebooks, a clipboard? 2 thin dry erase markers, and a pakc of any size sticky notes?

 

Very interesting. VERY interesting. And we pay PRIMO taxes around here. I know some homeschoolers who hav actually moved to a neighboring district (it really does suck) because of the taxes. We have discussed it. At least for the suburbs in the midwest, they are HIGH. (There are some neighborhoods that are just MEANT to be high. This is not one of them).