s/o Liberal arts ed vs practical

[Aubrey]

I've been reading the Swann threads & some of their articles. The kids write well. They've had successful jobs. There's no getting around the fact that what they did has worked for them. (I've tried!)

 

I was talking to dh about it last night. I told him that if I knew something like that were possible (even adding 5 yrs to everything they did), we'd be irresponsible to choose something else for our kids. He agreed wholeheartedly, which is unlike him--he usually likes *years* to mull things over noncommittally. :lol:

 

Anyway, that brought us around to talking about the value of a liberal arts education. I've got a degree in lit from a *wonderful* classical school. He's got a degree in hist w/ such outstanding work that he could go back to that school for a phd & get scholarships of some sort, at least.

 

But we can't get jobs or support our family. Very well, anyway. And I suggested that this kind of education...is a luxury...not something the middle class can really afford much of...that we need to be more focused on *careers* for our dc.

 

And then I look at the curric we're using, its richness & beauty, &...well, they'll be smart & well-educated, but...is it really worth it? If we can get them to love learning (they do), can't they just learn on their own for fun & get on w/ the training aspect of life? Not to say cutting out everything great, just being practical & focused. The difference between Calvert & MCT, for ex.

 

:bigear:

[melissel]

Great questions. I'm :bigear: too. My first instinct is to say that as homeschoolers, we can certainly prepare them for both worlds. But there are those who are way more experienced than I am whom I'd love to hear from.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

Well, I went to a lovely liberal arts college, and got a wonderful education, with not much "practical" information as far as landing a job. However, what I did learn throughout my entire education (K-College) was good study skills, good writing skills, good communication skills, and a strong work ethic. I was able to parlay those things into marketable assets when looking for a job. I ended up as the office manager/ full charge bookkeeper at a 40 person law firm with absolutely no experience in accounting, math, business, etc. I think that learning HOW to perform well in any job is just as important as learning the specific skill set for a particular job. I think the focus in any form of education should be setting up good work habits and good communication skills.

[Quiver0f10]

Interesting thread. I have been thinking along these lines too.

[Stacy in NJ]

I've been reading the Swann threads & some of their articles. The kids write well. They've had successful jobs. There's no getting around the fact that what they did has worked for them. (I've tried!)

 

I was talking to dh about it last night. I told him that if I knew something like that were possible (even adding 5 yrs to everything they did), we'd be irresponsible to choose something else for our kids. He agreed wholeheartedly, which is unlike him--he usually likes *years* to mull things over noncommittally. :lol:

 

Anyway, that brought us around to talking about the value of a liberal arts education. I've got a degree in lit from a *wonderful* classical school. He's got a degree in hist w/ such outstanding work that he could go back to that school for a phd & get scholarships of some sort, at least.

 

But we can't get jobs or support our family. Very well, anyway. And I suggested that this kind of education...is a luxury...not something the middle class can really afford much of...that we need to be more focused on *careers* for our dc.

 

And then I look at the curric we're using, its richness & beauty, &...well, they'll be smart & well-educated, but...is it really worth it? If we can get them to love learning (they do), can't they just learn on their own for fun & get on w/ the training aspect of life? Not to say cutting out everything great, just being practical & focused. The difference between Calvert & MCT, for ex.

 

:bigear:

 

It's a false choice. It needn't be one or the other. A child whose had a classical education will be well prepared for any practical training program. One can pursue both a nursing degree and a degree in literature concurrently or simultaneously.

 

And, if I remember correctly, you (Aubrey) do have a practical degree (education?).

[snickelfritz]

I think you have to look at the age of the person that you are talking about. A 9 year old who is learning about classical music, taking violin lessons, and studying Latin is much different than a 19 year old who is racking up huge college loans learning the same things.

 

I think the younger years is a LOT about exposure to a variety of things and a thorough grounding in some majorly important things (math, writing, reading.) By the time they get to college, I hope that their exposure to a variety of things and thorough grounding in the majorly important ones will allow them to pursue a field that they ENJOY that will EARN them a living.

 

But, I'm a big believer in finding a practical living in what you enjoy. And that any amount of student loans that you rack up should go towards a degree that will pay for them..... Don't get a fluffy degree unless you can afford to pay for it out of pocket and afford to earn the money it will (or won't) earn you. So, perhaps I think that liberal arts college majors are a luxury for the wealthy???? Everyone else needs to look towards earning a living. That's just reality. If you know you can earn a living with your double major in philosophy and history......go for it.

 

Like music? Fine. Minor in it, but get your major in something business related or in education. At least you can manage your finances if you own a music store or teach music lessons or you can teach music at a school. Or keep the music just for personal enjoyment and play in a band on the side of your day job.

Edited June 1, 2010 by snickelfritz

[Moxie]

It's a false choice. It needn't be one or the other. A child whose had a classical education will be well prepared for any practical training program. One can pursue both a nursing degree and a degree in literature concurrently or simultaneously.

 

And, if I remember correctly, you (Aubrey) do have a practical degree (education?).

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

We are educating our children in a classical/CM way. When they get to college, I will encourage them to get a degree with a career in mind. Studying history is fine if you plan on teaching history and know how to go about getting a job teaching history. My DH has a degree in Political Science BUT he always knew he was going to go on to law school. My sister graduated a year ago with a degree in Anthropology for no particular reason and she is still unemployed.

[Mejane]

But we can't get jobs or support our family. Very well, anyway. And I suggested that this kind of education...is a luxury...not something the middle class can really afford much of...that we need to be more focused on *careers* for our dc.

 

 

 

I think this should be the crux for most people. Unfortunately, educated people, or people who were not educated and so are fixated on it for their children, are often blind to this. Higher ed is not for everyone, and certain fields are for almost no one in practicality. Unless one has a nice trust fund, degrees in literature (sorry!), women's studies, general psychology (that's me)... are poor choices with regard to job outlook. Education for its own sake is lovely, if one can afford that luxury. It doesn't keep a roof over one's head and food in one's belly.

[Aubrey]

I think this should be the crux for most people. Unfortunately, educated people, or people who were not educated and so are fixated on it for their children, are often blind to this. Higher ed is not for everyone, and certain fields are for almost no one in practicality. Unless one has a nice trust fund, degrees in literature (sorry!), women's studies, general psychology (that's me)... are poor choices with regard to job outlook. Education for its own sake is lovely, if one can afford that luxury. It doesn't keep a roof over one's head and food in one's belly.

 

We were told that ANY DEGREE will get you a job. No one works in their chosen field anyway. That may have been true a couple of decades ago, but obviously not now.

 

I do have a degree in Ed, also, but...that's because I didn't know how to get a job, esp in my field & w/ the experience I had at graduation (teaching). I still have nightmares about teaching, lol, so while I could theoretically do that, it's hardly a good plan for me. The worst part? I knew that it would be a bad field for me before I got the degree!

 

I'm an extreme introvert. That combined w/ a liberal arts degree seems like...well, a bad combination. Maybe I could creatively finagle myself into something, but I'd prefer to not have to do much talking & just quietly impress people after I'm hired. (Or stir up the hornets' nest, as when I was teaching. Oops.) I think w/ my personality, it would have been better for me to have specific credentials. Otoh, it's my personality that made me a perfect fit for liberal arts. I could be happy being a hermit at a university, wearing strange clothes, pretending to smoke a pipe, & perpetuating the love of my field. :D

[BamaTanya]

Dh and I have undergraduate degrees in the liberal arts from private colleges and had no college debt when we married (hooray for scholarships!)

 

However, within a year of earning those degrees we discovered we needed more education (or a skill) to obtain a job with a paying-your-living-expenses salary.

 

We've been paying on dh's grad loans for years and added mine to the monthly bills in March.

 

I *LOVE* the *idea* of a liberal arts education but I wish we'd had some other means of making a living as well.

 

I do not know the answer for my own children, but I've watched relatives mortgage their homes to send their sons/daughters off to good schools for the whole college experience. Some spent 2-3 years wasting(?) time and money and didn't finish! Now they're working in mall stores or doing delivery (nothing wrong with that, but they didn't need years of college!), making peanuts and struggling with debt and young family expenses.

 

They financially would have done better to go to a trade school and had some earning power earlier.

 

I *hope* I can figure out a way for my dc to have both (but I adjust my expectations continually since I have 2 exceptional dc.)

 

One thing I know: we've lived meagerly on one income for years and now I'm trying to supplement part-time. We will not be able to finance our dc's higher education, but we can provide their room and board (here) while they work part-time and attend cc or a state university. One or two (of our five) may be eligible for scholarships . . .

 

We are NOT willing to go into debt for their schooling. If we had greater resources, we'd be happy to help, but NOT by increasing our debt.

[Aubrey]

Dh and I have undergraduate degrees in the liberal arts from private colleges and had no college debt when we married (hooray for scholarships!)

 

However, within a year of earning those degrees we discovered we needed more education (or a skill) to obtain a job with a paying-your-living-expenses salary.

 

We've been paying on dh's grad loans for years and added mine to the monthly bills in March.

 

I *LOVE* the *idea* of a liberal arts education but I wish we'd had some other means of making a living as well.

 

I do not know the answer for my own children, but I've watched relatives mortgage their homes to send their sons/daughters off to good schools for the whole college experience. Some spent 2-3 years wasting(?) time and money and didn't finish! Now they're working in mall stores or doing delivery (nothing wrong with that, but they didn't need years of college!), making peanuts and struggling with debt and young family expenses.

 

They financially would have done better to go to a trade school and had some earning power earlier.

 

I *hope* I can figure out a way for my dc to have both (but I adjust my expectations continually since I have 2 exceptional dc.)

 

One thing I know: we've lived meagerly on one income for years and now I'm trying to supplement part-time. We will not be able to finance our dc's higher education, but we can provide their room and board (here) while they work part-time and attend cc or a state university. One or two (of our five) may be eligible for scholarships . . .

 

We are NOT willing to go into debt for their schooling. If we had greater resources, we'd be happy to help, but NOT by increasing our debt.

 

See...I expected to read about the Swanns & find hokey degrees & bad writing skills. But what they're doing is what I wanted as a child. I was SO bored in the ps system--that's why I wanted to hs.

 

And now that I've lived a little, I want my kids to be able to support themselves, have money saved for a house when they get married, etc. I know the Swanns have the age issue, but all I can say is I would have been much happier teaching at 17 than working as a manager at the mall. I graduated ps highschool at 15 but then had no idea where to go or what to do. I started out at a small non-accredited Bible school, then went to the local cc for dance classes, then bumped through nursing, math, history, art majors before settling on lit.

 

I just want better for my dc. W/ parents like us, they're going to love the liberal arts anyway. I think the *direction* they will need will be toward something less natural for us. If only someone had told dh to go to engineering school & me graphic design. Jobs, people. :lol:

[snickelfritz]

I just want better for my dc. W/ parents like us, they're going to love the liberal arts anyway. I think the *direction* they will need will be toward something less natural for us. If only someone had told dh to go to engineering school & me graphic design. Jobs, people.

 

 

I was very lucky that my parents had this focus, while still encouraging us to find a field we liked.

 

My dad was always talking about WHAT you could use a degree for. And even if you plan on going to medical school or graduate school, is the undergraduate degree worth anything? Ex.... It's common for people to get a biology degree when they want to go to Med School. You can't do much with an undergraduate biology degree. So what happens if you decide as a senior in college that med school just isn't for you? Maybe you should add in a minor that will guarantee a job or do a double major.....or something.

 

 

ETA: They were extremely college focused. So, doing something at a technical school wasn't really in the vision they gave us. But, I thought their view on college was very practical. Of us kids, we have a teacher, a nurse, and an engineer who got her teaching certification.

[Karen in CO]

Aubrey - My degree is Computer Science from a terrific Liberal Arts college. I have so far, managed to stay gainfully employed in the computer field more because of my ability to read, write and reason than because of any trade knowledge I learned 20 years ago in college. My college had the philosophy that it was teaching us to reason like a computer scientist instead of teaching us to be a computer scientist. I continue to use that philosophy in both my career and my homeschooling.

 

Lately, I been trying to develop my ideal of an educated human. This week, I read Cicero. In one of his essays to his son, he talks about education and seeking knowledge. He told his son that every man needs to spend the amount of effort he needs to learn the trade that will allow him to be able to support his family and the rest of his time can be spent in the noble pursuit of knowledge and philosophy.

 

Somewhere between my college education and Cicero is a truth that I have been seeking. You don't know what kind of jobs will have a future when your kids are entering the job force. You do know that people who can read, write, reason, and work hard will have a better chance of finding the jobs than people who were trained for a specific job that no longer exists or has been off-shored.

 

I think everyone should know how to do manual labor or even better be trained in skilled labor. If nothing else, it will pay the bills while you go to school and feed a family while you are looking for work. I have several friends who have done construction work between jobs in the computer industry. My college son who is studying philosophy, Japanese and international affairs spent the weekend stacking a ton of rock and moving two yards of dirt to make an herb garden in addition to digging holes and sinking posts for a deck. Hard work.

[BamaTanya]

See...I expected to read about the Swanns & find hokey degrees & bad writing skills. But what they're doing is what I wanted as a child. I was SO bored in the ps system--that's why I wanted to hs.

 

And now that I've lived a little, I want my kids to be able to support themselves, have money saved for a house when they get married, etc. I know the Swanns have the age issue, but all I can say is I would have been much happier teaching at 17 than working as a manager at the mall. I graduated ps highschool at 15 but then had no idea where to go or what to do. I started out at a small non-accredited Bible school, then went to the local cc for dance classes, then bumped through nursing, math, history, art majors before settling on lit.

 

I just want better for my dc. W/ parents like us, they're going to love the liberal arts anyway. I think the *direction* they will need will be toward something less natural for us. If only someone had told dh to go to engineering school & me graphic design. Jobs, people. :lol:

 

You know, the ironic thing is, I *did* have opportunity handed to me. I was given 30 sem. hrs credit when I started college. I took classes in computer programming and accounting before settling on an English major (I was interested in everything). I was in such a hurry to get out of school, I graduated in 3 years. My scholarships would have covered 4! I could have doubled! I could have kept the computers or accounting *with* English and philosophy!

 

My accounting and programming friends had jobs lined up before graduation!

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I don't know if I agree that a liberal arts education is a luxury. I certainly did not have a trust fund or any financial help from my parents at all when I went off to college. I worked 3 jobs, got a small scholarship and took out student loans in order to obtain my degree. I majored in French and minored in history (with the original intention of getting a teaching certificate "to fall back on" because that's what everyone else thought I should do). I took a few education classes, realized they weren't for me, and never looked back. I am still paying back student loans from grad school, but I wouldn't trade one single second of the experiences I had for any amount of money. I learned so much and enriched my life so much, that I know it was all worth it.

 

I started in the law firm as a temp for 2 weeks, doing a mailing. When they realized that I could spell and speak clearly, they asked if I would like to be a secretary. I did that for a year until the office manager was leaving, and asked me to take over her job. I didn't want to do it because it required a great deal of accounting. But, she persuaded me that I could do it, and indeed I could. I ended up loving it. This is my point. If you learn how to learn (which I think is the point of a classical education) and you learn to love learning (which I think is the result of a liberal arts education), you can learn how to do any job. Right now, the job market is incredibly difficult, even for those with specific job training. I think it is more important than ever to be flexible in your skills in order to be able to accept a multitude of jobs.

[Jenny in GA]

So, I think I am saying that liberal arts college majors are a luxury for the wealthy. Everyone else needs to look towards earning a living. That's just reality. If you know you can earn a living with your double major in philosophy and history......go for it.

 

Like music? Fine. Minor in it, but get your major in something business related or in education. At least you can manage your finances if you own a music store or teach music lessons or you can teach music at a school. Or keep the music just for personal enjoyment and play in a band on the side of your day job.

 

 

Not picking on you by any means, but I have a Bachelor of Music degree, and it's sort of a pet peeve of mine how people act like that's a "silly" or "fluffy" degree that has no use in life, or that a person would have to be really stupid to choose such a field of study.

 

When I was a freshman in college, I was in a group of several people in college choir, and politely asked one of the older choir members, who was a good singer and made the audition-only ensembles, if she was a music major too.

 

She said, in front of all those people, rather loudly and with scornful humor, "No way! I want a job when I get out of college!"

 

I thought this was really rude, to publicly mock someone's career choice right in front of them -- not to mention announcing to someone that said person would never find employment!

 

I also bristle when people tell me something like, "Oh, I was a really good drummer in high school, but my parents informed me that I would not be a music major." Like it's a disrespectful career choice or something. It feels rather insulting.

 

Listen, a music degree is tough to get! It takes a lot of hard, detailed work, and requires a lot of "extras" past just your credit classes. (For example, we were required to be in an least one ensemble and accompanying singers' lessons, in addition to our regular full courseload.)

 

And music is a valid career. I know people who make their living as church music directors, staff accompanists at universities, or free-lance musicians who work regularly. Some own their own private studio and are able to support a family doing so. Some end up in a completely unrelated field (for example, I was a computer programmer for a while!)

 

And many many of them have wonderful careers as private or public school music educators, which for reason everybody seems to see as "not really a music job," but of course it is. And it's not proof that one is a failure as a musician, either, as many people believe. (Oh, and it's very unlikely to be able to get a job teaching music in the schools if you have a music minor. You're expected to have a B.M. degree to even be considered for the position.)

 

On a side note, when I did work as a programmer, business degrees were seen by my co-workers as a kind of joke, NOT something that would impress an employer or make your marketable by any means.

 

I can't imagine telling my kids, "Major in something you don't like, and/or find difficult, because otherwise you'll never get a job." In other words, they should have a job in a field they hate and/or struggle with their whole lives? What is the point of that?

 

Wasn't there some famous person who said, "Find what you love to do, then figure out a way to get paid for it."

 

Again, no offense at all to the person I was quoting. This is not directed at anyone specifically.

 

Jenny

[melissel]

Unless one has a nice trust fund, degrees in literature (sorry!), women's studies, general psychology (that's me)... are poor choices with regard to job outlook.

 

HEY! My women's studies degree has taken me quite far! About as far as my political science degree... *sigh* Well, it did help me haul my GPA up from the basement to a 3.7 though. That's something, right? :D

[SailorMom]

I agree with the idea that this doesn't have to be "either/or".

Truly, though, I believe that any sort of "classical" curriculum is training the kids to actually think - use reason... This in a huge skill is a world where it is not something valued or taught as frequently as it should be. As long as the foundations are laid for thinking and learning, these kids should be able to take any path they'd like.

I have a SIL who is a music/psychology major - she plans to work with music therapy. A BIL who has a graduate degree in communications - and is currently in the Middle East trying to help broker peace. My point - there are certainly great careers for the 'fluffy' degrees :)

[forty-two]

Obtaining a liberal arts education through a college very well might be a luxury, only practical for the wealthy. *I* certainly can't afford it, either for me or my kids. But it's not like going to college is the only way to study the liberal arts, any more than going to a brick & mortar school is the only way to get an elementary education ;).

 

I'm busy self-studying the liberal arts right now, and I'm planning an LCC, traditional classical homeschool - very much a liberal arts education. But I don't particularly care whether my dc go to college - I only want them to go if they need it for their chosen career; otherwise, there is nothing wrong with the skilled trades or other non-four-year-degree career paths. I *do* care that they continue their education, though - but for its own sake, not just for an official credential. My goal is to educate them well enough in our hs that they are able to take over from there and continue learning on their own. There are so many resources out there for self-education - college is not the sole purveyor of knowledge ;).

[snickelfritz]

Not picking on you by any means, but I have a Bachelor of Music degree, and it's sort of a pet peeve of mine how people act like that's a "silly" or "fluffy" degree that has no use in life, or that a person would have to be really stupid to choose such a field of study.

 

I would never say that a music major isn't easy or is fluffy in terms of the work put into it.

 

But, I tend towards practical things. That's just me. And I would try to help my kiddos find the practical in what they loved. And I would never encourage my dd to take on 20 or 30 or 40 thousand in student loans to get a music degree. If they can do it on scholarship, GREAT! But, I would still encourage them to find a minor in something or a side-skill in something that would widen their marketability.

 

I am all for doing what you love. But I know lots of people right now who would be willing to work at almost ANYTHING that would support their family.

 

I have my teaching certification, but didn't really enjoy teaching and I don't plan on going back to it. But, I can guarantee that if anything ever happened to dh and I needed to be able to support my kids.......I would go back to it in a heartbeat and do something that is less than what I love.

[Aubrey]

The college question is important, but I'd like to talk about the k-12 aspect of our kids' education a little bit more. I know that WTM & many of its variations are flavors of a liberal/classical ed. When I talk practical, I don't mean throwing out the basics by any means. I don't even mean throwing out a lot of history or Shakespeare. I just mean...maybe not *soaking* in it quite as much. Remembering that there *IS* a goal, & it's not just to enjoy poetry.

 

I'm the liberalist person you'll talk to about ed, so please understand, it kills me to say this. And I'm just wondering, not prescribing. I even wonder if it varies from family to family. In which case...honestly...dh & I ought to go back for fluffy phds & just embrace who we are & perpetuate it upon our children. :lol: The historical fiction we could come up w/ between the two of us ought to make us rich, really. And then teaching would just round us off & make other people pursue (relatively) worthless degrees because they want to be just. like. us. :D

[angela in ohio]

It's a false choice. It needn't be one or the other. A child whose had a classical education will be well prepared for any practical training program. One can pursue both a nursing degree and a degree in literature concurrently or simultaneously.

 

:iagree:

 

We have tentatively settled on giving dc practical training through a typical university course, while still furthering their liberal arts education at home during their college years. We simply can't afford the liberal arts/ great books education they would like, nor do we want our daughters leaving home to get it (not trying to bring that whole argument into this, please, just giving our personal reasons.)

 

Our oldest thinks she wants to be a nurse or a math/science teacher. She can get that degree easily here from a local university, while using a combination of self-education, family discussion and study, and online courses to continue her liberal arts education. Our next daughter wants to work in some type of therapy: physical, music, speech. The same plan should work well for her.

 

I don't know how it will work for ds. We do hope he goes off to a great university in a challenging field. There will probably not be time for the additional study. I just hope that he will pick it back up again after college, and I will give him everything I can while he is home with us.

[Jean in Newcastle]

The college question is important, but I'd like to talk about the k-12 aspect of our kids' education a little bit more. I know that WTM & many of its variations are flavors of a liberal/classical ed. When I talk practical, I don't mean throwing out the basics by any means. I don't even mean throwing out a lot of history or Shakespeare. I just mean...maybe not *soaking* in it quite as much. Remembering that there *IS* a goal, & it's not just to enjoy poetry.

 

I'm the liberalist person you'll talk to about ed, so please understand, it kills me to say this. And I'm just wondering, not prescribing. I even wonder if it varies from family to family. In which case...honestly...dh & I ought to go back for fluffy phds & just embrace who we are & perpetuate it upon our children. :lol: The historical fiction we could come up w/ between the two of us ought to make us rich, really. And then teaching would just round us off & make other people pursue (relatively) worthless degrees because they want to be just. like. us. :D

 

During K - 12, how would you teach differently? (I did read the Swann's - it's just been a while.) I'd rather teach classically and then add on the practical. Ds is quite competent on the computer and actually can break the thing down and build it again. I'd like my kids to also learn woodworking. Ds has his own baking business and dd wants one too. Those are the kinds of practical things I can teach during the K-12 years - not a law degree. I realize that the Swanns went to college early to get practical degrees but I think there is a lot of practical life experience that I would want my child to get before going to college or even dealing with the college level material.

[FairProspects]

This is an age old question that people have struggled with throughout history. As much as I would like it to be a right, education is a luxury. You must have food, financial means and security to be able to sit around and study. I love this John Adams quote which describes the same dilemma:

 

"I must study Politics and War that my sons may have the liberty to study Mathematics and Philosophy. My sons ought to study Mathematics and Philosophy, Geography, natural History, Naval Architecture, navigation, Commerce and Agriculture, in order to give their children the right to study Painting, Poetry, Music, Architecture, Statuary, Tapestry, and Porcelain."

 

Unfortunately, given the economy, we may be entering back into a period of more people having to work at putting food on the table and trying to better the future for their children so they can have the right to study the arts. Personally, I'm hoping that the two are not mutually exclusive, and that we can scrape by to both make a living and give our children a liberal education.

[Jenny in GA]

I would never say that a music major isn't easy or is fluffy in terms of the work put into it.

 

But, I tend towards practical things. That's just me. And I would try to help my kiddos find the practical in what they loved. And I would never encourage my dd to take on 20 or 30 or 40 thousand in student loans to get a music degree. If they can do it on scholarship, GREAT! But, I would still encourage them to find a minor in something or a side-skill in something that would widen their marketability.

 

I am all for doing what you love. But I know lots of people right now who would be willing to work at almost ANYTHING that would support their family.

 

I have my teaching certification, but didn't really enjoy teaching and I don't plan on going back to it. But, I can guarantee that if anything ever happened to dh and I needed to be able to support my kids.......I would go back to it in a heartbeat and do something that is less than what I love.

 

 

You and are probably a lot alike, then. I got my teaching certificate also -- not "to fall back on in case I fail in a real career path," (which is an attitude I hate), but because it seemed like the option that best fit me as far as the specifics of my degree.

 

I like your idea of a "side-skill." I did NOT PLAN to be a music teacher by any means, but I ended up doing it and loving it more than I ever would have dreamed.

 

However, I think it's important to note that even though I didn't PLAN or particularly hope to be a music teacher, the coursework sounded intriguing, and it seemed like something I might be good at. In other words, I didn't just grit my teeth and suffer through it "because I need a failure option." (How nice to those in the teaching profession to describe their career as "what one turns to when they're a failure.")

 

Having several different "tricks up your sleeve" seems the way to go. You never know what turns your life will take. New opportunites pass up, things that didn't fit your lifestyle, or appeal to you then, make more sense now.

 

That seems like a subtle but important difference between "study this thing you hate, because you'll probably be a failure in the thing that you love."

 

Jenny

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

It's so hard to know what the possibilities are going to be for our children when it's time for them to make their life choices. I think that most homeschooling parents are trying to provide the best possible education for their children, and I think for the most part, those children will turn out fine. We worry about it, but we really don't have that much control over what happens in their careers and adult lives. I think that by doing what you think is right for your kids, you will provide them with a solid foundation on which to build.

[forty-two]

The college question is important, but I'd like to talk about the k-12 aspect of our kids' education a little bit more. I know that WTM & many of its variations are flavors of a liberal/classical ed. When I talk practical, I don't mean throwing out the basics by any means. I don't even mean throwing out a lot of history or Shakespeare. I just mean...maybe not *soaking* in it quite as much. Remembering that there *IS* a goal, & it's not just to enjoy poetry.

What do you mean, the goal is not just to enjoy poetry :lol:? Seriously though, maybe I've just spent too much time in my own homeschool ivory tower :D, but I just don't get what K-12 *academic* things would be ultimately of more practical use in the long run than a rigorous liberal arts education (barring serious learning disorders)?

 

I mean, certainly there is more to life than academics, and practical life skills should also be learned K-12, but they aren't a replacement for academics or anything. And I kind of see vocational stuff as falling under practical life skills, not under academics. And I guess I see there being time for both - I mean, my dh and I have time for both, and we live in the "real world" ;):lol:, why wouldn't their likewise be time for both for our kids in our hs?

[LibraryLover]

I did wonder what the Swann kids were doing for work. I find them very interesting. I could only find articles about the oldest two (writer/teacher, & pastor). I wondered what work the other kids were doing. I was assuming teaching/missionary work? Link, OP?

Edited June 1, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Impish]

One of the things I constantly discuss with Diva is her future. That whatever she chooses, she *needs* to be able to support herself, and family if need be.

 

She knows she wants a husband and children. Great. But before that, make sure that you can support them. Husbands can be injured, ill, disabled, unemployed, leave, die. Being totally dependent on another person to provide everything leaves a person incredibly vulnerable.

 

Would I discourage her from a liberal arts ed in secondary education? Yes. Get something that you can get a job from, that there's a demand for, not something that you'll be hard pressed to apply, esp when you're paying for the degree.

 

My brother has a psych degree. He taught for 2 years in Japan...then worked for several more years (youth home, then prison) and is now a police officer. His psych degree was of little use.

 

I'd far rather my kids became plumbers or electricians than had a degree in liberal arts. Working with their hands, in a trade, will be far more valuable in terms of making their way in the world...and one can always study liberal arts at home, in their own way...a degree isn't necessary. If they really wanted a degree in it, then they could pay their way while working in a trade. Around here, its the trades people making the $$$$, not the folks with CEO dreams.

 

All that aside, I know I can't decide for my kids...but I will absolutely discourage it as best I can.

[MIch elle]

Dh & I went for job training in college (BS/PHD chemistry & BS MLS). We came from poor families and were the first to attend college in our families. We will try to steer our dc in the same direction, a practical education in the sciences. It has served us well, and we hope that it will serve our dc well too.

[Aubrey]

What do you mean, the goal is not just to enjoy poetry :lol:? Seriously though, maybe I've just spent too much time in my own homeschool ivory tower :D, but I just don't get what K-12 *academic* things would be ultimately of more practical use in the long run than a rigorous liberal arts education (barring serious learning disorders)?

 

I mean, certainly there is more to life than academics, and practical life skills should also be learned K-12, but they aren't a replacement for academics or anything. And I kind of see vocational stuff as falling under practical life skills, not under academics. And I guess I see there being time for both - I mean, my dh and I have time for both, and we live in the "real world" ;):lol:, why wouldn't their likewise be time for both for our kids in our hs?

 

What I would do differently: school more often & more consistently. That's easy, though. I've been wanting that ever since we started, & the Swanns might just get dh to help w/ his end of that equation. Not that we're aiming to graduate them at 11--because, shoot, I think we already missed that boat! :lol: Just that we want them to be hard-working & consistent.

 

Beyond that, the differences that I've thought of between a practical & more liberal ed: SOTW, for ex--projects would be on their own time, if they want to, & count as "play" not school. Extra library books on subjects would be the same. Graduating early would not be a goal in itself, but definitely a good thing, for several reasons. The sooner you can start making money, the more choices you have about everything, from a home, to marriage, to college.

 

Also, though...it seems to me that when teenagers are given something of real importance to do, they are *much* happier. Real jobs, real responsibility seems to make them more productive, have more initiative, & be happier.

 

I'd keep the basics, because they're basic. I'd still try to do an excellent job w/ the extras, but w/in smaller parameters perhaps. Some of the historical/literature discussion could be moved to "dinner talk" & free up an hour or so in the week. If things like that meant that we could move forward faster AND IF moving forward faster would ultimately give them more freedom & make them happier...it might just be better planning to do it that way. It might just be that dh & I need to work a little harder, be more responsible, & be more purposeful about the ed we're giving our dc.

 

As much as I'd like to tout my lit degree, the truly brilliant people I've known know lit better than I do, & their degrees are in math/science. What I've got on them is something amorphous & not specifically valuable w/out clever application: creativity. Can't be bought. Not easily sold, either. :lol:

[Jane in NC]

The college question is important, but I'd like to talk about the k-12 aspect of our kids' education a little bit more. I know that WTM & many of its variations are flavors of a liberal/classical ed. When I talk practical, I don't mean throwing out the basics by any means. I don't even mean throwing out a lot of history or Shakespeare. I just mean...maybe not *soaking* in it quite as much. Remembering that there *IS* a goal, & it's not just to enjoy poetry.

 

I'm the liberalist person you'll talk to about ed, so please understand, it kills me to say this. And I'm just wondering, not prescribing. I even wonder if it varies from family to family. In which case...honestly...dh & I ought to go back for fluffy phds & just embrace who we are & perpetuate it upon our children. :lol: The historical fiction we could come up w/ between the two of us ought to make us rich, really. And then teaching would just round us off & make other people pursue (relatively) worthless degrees because they want to be just. like. us. :D

 

Aubrey,

 

I wish that people from other cultures would weigh in on your question. Part of the problem that we have in these discussions, I believe, is that Americans tend to place value on those things that bring monetary outcomes. Granted, I am not advocating a life of poverty. And because health care in this country depends on a job or wealth, I am also not going to suggest naively that one should pursue one's interests an any cost.

 

But I do think that part of the problem is that people who work with their hands are looked down upon. Not by all, but by many. This is what has led to former technical schools becoming community colleges, fewer students pursuing plumbing certification and more wanting "business" degrees.

 

Here I sit with my master's degree in math. Yes, I have "used" it for monetary gain, but that degree has made me who I am. With my only child going off to college, many assume that I will return to "work" as though my domestic life and homeschooling was not work because I was not paid. But what do I want to do? Teach kids how to sew. Not everyone is going to make their own garments, but I would like kids to have the basic skill of reading a pattern, turning a two dimensional piece of fabric into a three dimensional garment, because this is a skill that I think they might apply to other areas. Maybe reading directions for installing a ceiling fan or figuring out how to recycle one garment into another. Yes, I want students to read Shakespeare and study Calculus, but I also want them to know how to bake a loaf of bread, tune up their bikes and borrow a book from the library on how to do something themselves. I like Stacy's comment that liberal arts vs. practical is a false choice.

 

Further, focusing on a technical skill today may be just as "useless" as a liberal arts degree. My mother went to business school to be a comptometer operator. I took a Fortran class as an undergrad. Someone who studied electrical engineering fifty years ago studied a completely different subject than today's electrical engineers. The same is probably true in nursing. Life changes.

 

I am so glad that there are still music majors who dare to dream.

[Aubrey]

One of the things I constantly discuss with Diva is her future. That whatever she chooses, she *needs* to be able to support herself, and family if need be.

 

She knows she wants a husband and children. Great. But before that, make sure that you can support them. Husbands can be injured, ill, disabled, unemployed, leave, die. Being totally dependent on another person to provide everything leaves a person incredibly vulnerable.

 

Would I discourage her from a liberal arts ed in secondary education? Yes. Get something that you can get a job from, that there's a demand for, not something that you'll be hard pressed to apply, esp when you're paying for the degree.

 

My brother has a psych degree. He taught for 2 years in Japan...then worked for several more years (youth home, then prison) and is now a police officer. His psych degree was of little use.

 

I'd far rather my kids became plumbers or electricians than had a degree in liberal arts. Working with their hands, in a trade, will be far more valuable in terms of making their way in the world...and one can always study liberal arts at home, in their own way...a degree isn't necessary. If they really wanted a degree in it, then they could pay their way while working in a trade. Around here, its the trades people making the $$$$, not the folks with CEO dreams.

 

All that aside, I know I can't decide for my kids...but I will absolutely discourage it as best I can.

 

 

As much as my head agrees w/ you...I went to college because I knew I couldn't do some of the things you've described. I know it sounds like a cop-out, but I think there are some people who are made up in such a way that they need certain kinds of degrees to wear like armor from the real world. Unfortunately...liberal arts most appeal to these people, & those degrees generally make terrible shields. Something that uses the mind & creativity & provides some sort of monastary. :lol: Like the guys who work at NASA. ;)

 

As an aside--I wouldn't think a BA in Psych would be worth much, but I assume people who go on to get higher degrees in that make reasonable $ as psychiatrist/psychologists. Right?

[Rosy]

I don't think the problem is liberal arts education, I think the problem is unfocused education. When people rack up the high tuition bills, assuming that their degree at Prestigious Private University will automatically land them in a high-paying, satisfying job immediately after graduation, they're probably going to be disappointed.

 

In a sense I do think it's a class issue. If you come from a family who can pay for your education and then help you out until you get a good job, you can choose what you do after college without having to worry about repaying loans. For the rest of us, I think we need to think in more practical terms. Not "I can't major in liberal arts", but "how will a liberal arts major help me achieve my goals?".

 

My hope is that in homeschooling, my kids will have graduated college with an excellent liberal arts education, (possibly rivaling what they could get in a 4-year college) as well as a strong enough sense of their interests and abilities that college will be a means to an end for them.

 

I started college wanting to be an environmental activist and took general classes to that end. I wish someone would have sat me down and explained how much more effective I would have been with an Environmental Law degree or even Environmental Science and a professional job in my field of interest. But schools and universities don't have intimate knowledge of their students, and my mom really didn't know how to advise me in that area.

[forty-two]

What I would do differently: school more often & more consistently. That's easy, though. I've been wanting that ever since we started, & the Swanns might just get dh to help w/ his end of that equation. Not that we're aiming to graduate them at 11--because, shoot, I think we already missed that boat! :lol: Just that we want them to be hard-working & consistent.

 

Beyond that, the differences that I've thought of between a practical & more liberal ed: SOTW, for ex--projects would be on their own time, if they want to, & count as "play" not school. Extra library books on subjects would be the same. Graduating early would not be a goal in itself, but definitely a good thing, for several reasons. The sooner you can start making money, the more choices you have about everything, from a home, to marriage, to college.

 

Also, though...it seems to me that when teenagers are given something of real importance to do, they are *much* happier. Real jobs, real responsibility seems to make them more productive, have more initiative, & be happier.

 

I'd keep the basics, because they're basic. I'd still try to do an excellent job w/ the extras, but w/in smaller parameters perhaps. Some of the historical/literature discussion could be moved to "dinner talk" & free up an hour or so in the week. If things like that meant that we could move forward faster AND IF moving forward faster would ultimately give them more freedom & make them happier...it might just be better planning to do it that way. It might just be that dh & I need to work a little harder, be more responsible, & be more purposeful about the ed we're giving our dc.

 

As much as I'd like to tout my lit degree, the truly brilliant people I've known know lit better than I do, & their degrees are in math/science. What I've got on them is something amorphous & not specifically valuable w/out clever application: creativity. Can't be bought. Not easily sold, either. :lol:

See, I agree with just about everything you posted - I just don't see how any of your "practical" ideas are at cross purposes with classical ed - "impractical" is not a synonym for "liberal arts" ;):lol:. Most of your practical ideas are part of my plans for my (exceedingly non-career-focused) LCC hs.

[Mejane]

As an aside--I wouldn't think a BA in Psych would be worth much, but I assume people who go on to get higher degrees in that make reasonable $ as psychiatrist/psychologists. Right?

 

Right, but it requires another 4-8 years of schooling on top of the undergrad degree. :tongue_smilie:

[Aubrey]

Right, but it requires another 4-8 years of schooling on top of the undergrad degree. :tongue_smilie:

 

I've just been thinking a lot lately about how much lit has to do w/ human thought & emotion & thinking I might like to work toward a degree in psych. I mean, I love giving advice. Maybe if people had to pay me for it, they'd listen! :lol:

[aggieamy]

I've just been thinking a lot lately about how much lit has to do w/ human thought & emotion & thinking I might like to work toward a degree in psych. I mean, I love giving advice. Maybe if people had to pay me for it, they'd listen! :lol:

 

I have a very good friend that just graduated with her masters degree in psych. That's a lot of school, some student loans, and a bunch of time. Her husband is the same age and he has an BS in civil engineering. She is making half of what he is making! Half! It took her forever to get a job and is commuting two hours round trip everyday. That being said she really enjoys what she does but so does he.

 

I remember vividly trying to decide what I wanted to major in when I went to college. (My parents are all well educated so it was never a choice.) I wanted to be an architect because I liked buildings and designing things. Even though that was a pretty practical choice my father discouraged me from it and suggested I go into engineering instead. He said that it was similar to architecture but more money and in higher demand. I'm so delighted I took his advice. I work for an engineering company now and I'm very secure in my job but we have laid off about 80% of the architects.

 

Hopefully my DH and I will make enough money that our children will be set for life and can pursue whatever they want in college but if I'm not leaving them with a large trust fund I will be insisting that anything they major in result in a job that's in high demand and will make enough money to comfortably support them.

[Danestress]

I have a liberal arts education. I used it to go to law school, which I loved. DH did the same. He was an English major and would not trade that for the world. Neither of us had to pay for law school, partly because we worked hard in our liberal arts programs and had scholarships. His was a military funded thing, but it was very competitive, and his college performance was just one part of getting that, in fairness.

 

I think that smart, motivated kids who always have an eye on the future can turn their liberal arts degrees to their advantage. I think lazy kids who think the world owes them a living are not going to use those degrees effectively.

 

If my sons want to major in a liberal arts degree, that is fine with me. They will understand that when they graduate, they are on their own, and I don't really care if they are wealthy or penny pinching, as long as they live within their means. I want them to be well educated in what is important to THEM which might be Comparative Literature. I truly believe that when you have talent, hard work, and passion, you usually get good results. If any of these elements are missing in my children, then I will be more likely to steer them towards something very practical. I have one son who is graduating from college this summer. He honestly is not a super hard worker academically, though he is a very good employee. He did get a more practical degree, and I think that was wise of him. But if I had a son who was absolutely on fire for the classics, who always performed at the top of his class, and who worked hard, I would support him in pursuing his dreams. I could have studied anything I wanted and gone to law school. If I have a child who wants to be an attorney (and for all the bashing, DH and I have both mostly been happy about that career choice) I will tell them to major in whatever most interests them.

 

My big worry, honestly, is that one of my sons wants to be a professional athlete. Getting a degree in Philosophy seems really practical compared to hoping to play Wimbledon:)

[TravelingChris]

My kids want careers that require advanced degrees. Why wouldn't they? That is what their parents have and what one set of their GPs had. Both dh and I got liberal arts degrees that weren't fluff at all. Mine was economics and his was physics. My oldest is getting philosophy. It is a long shot that he can become a professor but we finance his BA and he is responsible for the rest. Since he doesn't mind working less skilled jobs, I don't see what is wrong with him trying to do something that he seems particularly well suited for. Will he become a professor? I don't know but how is it a problem for me? He knows we can't move him next time, he knows he needs to finish his degree and then he has to get a job. HIs current plan is to go teach English in Korea after he finishes his degree and then apply to grad school. Our next wants to be a prosecutor. THat means a law degree. She plans on going to a state school for that. Our last will probably get an engineering degree.

 

We tell our kids about the costs and benefits but ultimately it is up to them. We help pay or pay outright for a college degree. The rest is up to them. I actually would have liked my oldest to have gotten at least a minor in art. He is very talented and that seems like a thing for him to fall back on. But he has skills like animal care and doesn't mind hard work so yes, he will be able to get jobs.

[Jenny in GA]

I don't think the problem is liberal arts education, I think the problem is unfocused education. When people rack up the high tuition bills, assuming that their degree at Prestigious Private University will automatically land them in a high-paying, satisfying job immediately after graduation, they're probably going to be disappointed.

 

In a sense I do think it's a class issue. If you come from a family who can pay for your education and then help you out until you get a good job, you can choose what you do after college without having to worry about repaying loans. For the rest of us, I think we need to think in more practical terms. Not "I can't major in liberal arts", but "how will a liberal arts major help me achieve my goals?".

 

 

:iagree:

 

Yup. Yup. Yup.

 

BTW, I got my music degree (at a private school, no less!) with no debt. I had both academic and music scholarships. I worked in high school, and almost all through college. I drove my parents' 13 year old car, never went on "Spring Break vacations" or did anything else particularly costly.

 

My parents contributed several thousand dollars, but they did not start saving when I was a baby (or even when I was ten), and they did not go into debt.

 

But would my degree be seen as a "wealthy luxury" simply because it was in music? More of a luxury than someone who went to

 

Another thought: I remember some friends talking in college about their majors, and saying adamently that, if someone had an engineering major and an English minor, they "would be able to get any job they want!" when you graduate. I remember even at the time, suspecting that must be at least a slight exaggeration.

 

And I am not sure that I would want to hire a 21 year old who felt adamently that he "get any job he wanted!"

 

Jenny

[dragons in the flower bed]

I make a spreadsheet. On the left, I list the class. In the middle, I describe succinctly what we'll do. On the right, I note: classical, practical. Anything that hits both I do.

 

I don't see why you can't do a classical education with an accelerated method.

[TravelingChris]

Oh, and with regards to how I do education classically versus practically, I emphasize math and science more than most classical educators and also insist on economics. Since my kids have some issues with learning foreign languages, they stick to one. THe girls are doing Spanish because of the much easier spelling and also for the older, it is much more practical for a prosecutor to speak Spanish.

[Mejane]

I have a liberal arts education. I used it to go to law school, which I loved. DH did the same. He was an English major and would not trade that for the world. Neither of us had to pay for law school, partly because we worked hard in our liberal arts programs and had scholarships. His was a military funded thing, but it was very competitive, and his college performance was just one part of getting that, in fairness.

 

Getting a degree in Philosophy seems really practical compared to hoping to play Wimbledon:)

 

I think the "beef" is with LA and some other degrees as an end in and of themselves. I agree they're a great stepping stone into many grad degrees.

 

My son wants to be an actor. Any degree sounds practical in comparison, doesn't it? :001_smile:

[spradlin02]

I feel like my job is to help my kids find their passions, the rest will take care of itself. I think kids have an innate understanding of their skills and intelligence and I see it's my job to foster an environment that helps direct those energies. I'm much more concerned with helping my children in this capacity than preparing them for college. If they can think, then they can learn anything. If they must have a piece of paper to get a job, well then that's a serious consideration, but I always come back to the opportunity cost of college and is there a fruitful return on investment.

[jld]

I do think some majors are for the wealthy, just as some colleges are. Some kids had a luckier birth than others, I guess.

 

I didn't major in Spanish education because I loved it; I knew I needed a job as soon as I got out of school, and I didn't want to do something I totally hated. Fortunately, I met dh 3 mos. after I finished college, and he was willing to support me. I really don't know where I'd be today without him.

 

Of our 3 oldest kids, 2 are very technical. One isn't, and would like to study lit and drama. We're telling him that we'll pay for one degree, and then he's on his own. Dh says we may insist he double major: one tech major, one of his choice. I don't know how that will work out. I feel for him when his sister and brother are getting good jobs. I guess I shouldn't be so pessimistic, but I am.

 

Life really is not fair. Not everyone can be a doctor or an engineer. That's just how it is.

Edited June 2, 2010 by jld

[spradlin02]

Life really is not fair. Not everyone can be a doctor or an engineer. That's just how it is.

 

Not everyone wants to be. Should I hope my children chase the money or the dream.

[Terabith]

My thinking is this:

 

A liberal arts education is important and valuable for its own sake. I truly want my children to experience this, and I am planning their educations with this in mind.

 

What happens after 8th grade or so will depend on the kid. If they are not interested in academics for its own sake, then we will pursue a practical career, including things like community/ vocational education. However, along with the primary emphasis on practical life prep, we'll continue with a lighter program of liberal arts, since I think that is important for its own sake in an educated human being.

 

However, even if they ARE interested in a college liberal arts education, I plan to have them pursue either a plan for college in a pre-professional program (if they want to do physical therapy or something like that), or take courses in a program like accounting that will get them at least part ways towards a practical career path that they will have under their boat prior to starting a liberal arts college. (Of course, we'll also work REALLY hard on the scholarship end of things.) We'll do both, but which is the primary emphasis will depend on their interests and motivations.

 

So, I think both are important. My early educational plan is oriented towards liberal arts. High school I see as having a dual career path: education for its own sake, but at least part of their high school education consisting of a vocational/ practical education.

[LibraryLover]

I think the "beef" is with LA and some other degrees as an end in and of themselves. I agree they're a great stepping stone into many grad degrees.

 

My son wants to be an actor. Any degree sounds practical in comparison, doesn't it? :001_smile:

 

 

LOL My son wants to be an attorney, but I think he would be a great writer. I think he has a better shot at steady money with his idea. lol Of course, he also has landscaping, drywall and painting skills. One summer he was hired by archietects to help remodel an old home so the archietects could 'flip' it, and I used to hear them all discussing literature (i oftenbrought ds lunch) as they wet -sanded. It was kind of funny and very cool. It's nice to be well-rounded, lol.

 

LL, surrounded by employed people with Liberal Arts undergrad degrees.

Edited June 1, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Impish]

Its one thing to use it to springboard to another field of study (ie law). Its another to have a BA in psychology, leave school, and expect to find a high enough paying job to support yourself, and eventually a family. At least around here it is.

 

Its my brother's ability to speak Japanese, his work in the youth centres and then the jail that got him onto the police force, not his BA. I worked with folks that had BA's in other fields, and there they were, with me, working in a long term care facility, with piles of student debt, wondering where to go from there.

 

That's why I'd discourage my kids from it...I don't want them tens of thousands of dollars in debt (at least!) only to discover the degree they have is no more valuable than a 16 wk course if that. If they plan to go on after the initial 4 yrs, that's completely different...if they plan on just the 4 yrs, better to go with something that will have them employable.

 

I believe that its important to look at the end result...where you want to end up, not just what initially appeals.