"What a horrible, black day" -- Offensive?

[Sahamamama]

Yesterday was Good Friday. Someone who will remain nameless used the above phrase to describe the horror of contemplating how his sins were what put his Lord and Savior on the cross to die. When he said, with emphasis, "What a horrible day! What a black day!" I nearly jumped out of my seat. I don't know why, it just seriously bothered me.

 

FWIW, I am white, my husband is Egyptian (we don't consider this white OR black, LOL, but some sort of "other"), and my children are half-me, half-him. Our friends, coworkers, fellow church members, and neighbors are white AND black. That's normal here, we've grown up in truly integrated communities. My husband didn't think it was problematic to say what was said, because "the color black has always been associated with evil and sin in Western culture and it was used in that way, without reference to skin color or race."

 

I think he's right, and I don't usually get all in a dither about being PC, but this bugs me. Why does this bug me? Do I wince for the way I think it might feel to hear this if my skin were black? Would it bother you, too?

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

No it would not bother me. I agree with your husband.

 

It didn't bother me when my husband's cousins called me "whitey." either.

[fivetails]

Nah, there isn't any connection to skin colour/race/heritage/whatever going on there...

 

black --> dark --> depressing --> gloomy --> etc

 

[think of big black storm clouds]

[katemary63]

No it would not bother me. I agree with your husband.

 

It didn't bother me when my husband's cousins called me "whitey." either.

 

:iagree: I didn't even get what you were talking about AT ALL till you came out and said it. I though, "Why is she talking about what race she is???"

[SproutMamaK]

Nah, there isn't any connection to skin colour/race/heritage/whatever going on there...

 

black --> dark --> depressing --> gloomy --> etc

 

[think of big black storm clouds]

 

:iagree:

 

Besides, the day actually WAS black, what with the sun being dark for three hours. I don't see this statement as racially charged at all.

[Shelly in the Country]

Nah, there isn't any connection to skin colour/race/heritage/whatever going on there...

 

black --> dark --> depressing --> gloomy --> etc

 

[think of big black storm clouds]

 

:iagree: Actually when you said, "What a black day!" My mind immediately conjured up big black storm clouds. I think of a darkened, gloomy sky, not of race at all.

[Harriet Vane]

I agree with your husband. Black has always been associated with darkness, storm clouds, sin, etc. It really has nothing to do with skin color. FWIW I have lived in an African-American community (90% Af-Am) for thirteen years, was a member of an Af-Am church for seven years, and my current church is mixed 65% African-American and 25% white + other.

[RoughCollie]

This reminds me of a story.

 

My close friend read her child a book about MLK when he was 6 years old. When she finished it, he shook his head and said, "Man, I feel sorry for all those black people."

 

She said, "What do you mean? You are black!"

 

He said, "No, I'm not. I'm brown."

 

The family came over to our house for weekly dinner together, and the story was told to us.

 

Neither my friend nor I could get the kids to understand that our friend's son was black instead of brown. The kids knew their colors!

 

I think any brouhaha over the use of the word black being racist is a tempest in a teapot. The kids were right -- there may be people on earth whose skin is actually black, but all the black people I have ever seen are actually brown.

[Sahamamama]

Thanks, ladies. I do feel better now.

 

Maybe I had too much "cultural sensitivity training" back in the days when I was a government social worker. :tongue_smilie: I never did like those sessions.

 

Thanks.

[BeckyFL]

The day really was literally and figuratively black. What about all the other places in the bible where darkness is contrasted with light? PLEASE... don't be one of those people who are sensitive about words that have nothing to do with race. It was a great description. Black is an adjective that that can be used in many ways. So it is with white, red and yellow.

It's nice not to be overly sensitive and looking for offense. My husband's sister is married to an African American. He calls himself the black sheep of the family to be funny. Take it all lightly - we are all just people. :chillpill:

[BeckyFL]

Just read your post. I'll bet "government sensitivity training" would do that to anyone. AND... is it accomplishing what they wanted it to? :confused:

[JFSinIL]

I read it as black as in dark, gloomy, miserable - never crossed my mind to think of it in terms of skin color.

 

And, aren't most "black" folks really various shades of brown, anyway (although some really dark). The only "white" folks are peachy or yellowish (except true albinos).

[lionfamily1999]

Thanks, ladies. I do feel better now.

 

Maybe I had too much "cultural sensitivity training" back in the days when I was a government social worker. :tongue_smilie: I never did like those sessions.

 

Thanks.

I get squeemish with "black" too. I try to ignore it, but I nearly always end up hesitating. I blame the conversion from "black" to "African American" myself. It made a simple word seem so dirty, wrong, cruel and racially charged, that I wish we could just use something completely different.

[hillfarm]

No, this use of the word black doesn't offend me at all. Neither does the use of the words white or pale to describe someone who is sickly, coldhearted, creepy, etc.

 

IMO, we "owned" the words first, before any PC group got their grubby little mitts on them and I intend to continue using them for their prePC meanings!

[TCoppock]

Nah, there isn't any connection to skin colour/race/heritage/whatever going on there...

 

black --> dark --> depressing --> gloomy --> etc

 

[think of big black storm clouds]

:iagree:

[emzhengjiu]

There are some words such as the "N" word that are considered wrong and hurtful in our culture but other words have to be interpreted based on the context. There are hundreds of words that could be offensive or not depending on how they are used. We could waste an incredible amount of time looking for problems where there are none.

 

Ann

[Ester Maria]

"the color black has always been associated with evil and sin in Western culture and it was used in that way, without reference to skin color or race."

Coincidentally, not so long ago I reread the poem which accompanied me in the "darker" phases of my youth. Before I go on with my point, please take a few moments to read it, without (I assume, unless you have read it and recognize it) knowing who, when and why wrote it - I cut some parts off since the poem itself is lengthy, and I'll provide the full link to it later, right now just think about what you're reading - or, better, what you think you're reading:

 

My friend, my friend,

How sick I am. Nor do I know

Whence came this sickness.

Either the wind whistles

Over the desolate unpeopled field,

Or as September strips a copse,

Alcohol strips my brain.

 

My head waves my ears

Like a bird its wings.

Unendurably it looms my neck

When I walk.

The black man,

The black, black,

Black man

Sits by me on the bed all night,

Won't let me sleep.

 

This black man

Runs his fingers over a vile book,

And, twangling above me,

Like a sleepy monk over a corpse,

Reads a life

Of some drunken wretch,

Filling my heart with longing and despair.

The black man,

Oh black man.

 

[...]

This fellow lived

His life in a land of most repulsive

Thieves and charlatans.

 

[...]

The black man

Looks me straight in the eye

And his eyes are filmed

With blue vomit--

As if he wanted to say,

I'm a thief and rogue

Who'd robbed a man

Openly, without shame.

 

[...]

"Listen! listen!"--he croaks,

Eyes on my face,

Leaning closer and closer.

I never saw

Any scoundrel

Suffer so stupidly, pointlessly,

From insomnia.

 

[...]

"Black man!

Most odious guest!

Your fame has long resounded."

I'm enraged, possessed,

And my cane flies

Straight across

The bridge of his nose.

 

[the bold emphasis is mine]

 

Disturbing, right? The author is being disturbed,nagged, by "the black man", in moments of utter despair, the black man is reading to him from a "vile" book and leaning over him as over a "corpse", he's associated with the gloomy underworld, "thieves and charlatans", robbery, "scoundrels", insomnia (and some other things you'll see in the link later which I cut when posting this), he's "the most odious guest" and the author attempts to... hit him? kill him? metaphorically "get rid" of him?

 

Knowing only these parts of the text, and not thinking of the context, you would have thought the poem is blatantly racist - to the point of forbidding it.

But, let's look at the final part of the poem, to see how it ends:

 

The moon has died.

Dawn glimmers in the window.

Ah, night!

What, night, what have you ruined?

I stand top-hatted.

No one is with me.

I am alone...

And the mirror is broken.

 

"The black man" from the poem, apparently, is the author himself. In this final part you can see the contrasting elements of light (dawn) and dark (night), with the black man who is no longer there apparently belonging to this other sphere, but the poet himself is "the black man".

So you might say, alright, but does it make the poem less racist, less hateful, less bitter about a specific human race and the connotations it gives to it if the poet himself was black?

 

Except, that, well, he wasn't.

Here is the link to the full text of the poem. It was written in Russia, in 1925, by Yesenin, who himself was as white as you can be. The "black" in the poem, the black which is stressed so awfully much, has NOTHING to do with the physical color of one's skin. It's, rather, the concept, the embodiment into a "color" of certain feelings, experiences, and cultural burden which, again, has NOTHING to do with any race issues at all.

 

It's very interesting though that it never occurred me that somebody who doesn't know the context could read the poem through "racial" lenses, since it never even occurred to me as a kid that the man in the poem might be black as in race, even if we put Yesenin aside and say the poem has nothing to do with his life, if we study it outside of its context, the "black" in the poem still doesn't become the physical color of one's skin. It's a set of cultural associations. It's a concept. It's not a racial issue at all.

Yet, when I showed it for the first time to some of my American friends, they would have bet that the poem speaks of race, because within their cultural circle, the connotations of "black" are somewhat different. To me it was inherently logical that it wasn't the skin color, and it wasn't because I knew who Yesenin was or because I lived in a relatively homogenous society - it was just understandable to me that the color is not, really, a color in this poem.

 

The expression which disturbed you yesterday was of the same kind. It's not an expression of "color" - even if it may be provoked by the dready and gloomy day so thus we can go on and continue the chain and "black" would fit in nicely - it's the expression of a feeling and a concept; you could even go further and claim it the expression of something subconscious in our culture, the link of "darkness" with "evil".

To a European mind, "black" is not only a physical color, it's the embodiment of certain traits. "The black man" doesn't have to be physically black, nor does "the white girl", in her Sunday robes, necessarily have to be physically white.

 

White is Sunday, white are Sunday and wedding clothes, white is air, white are children playing, white is innocence. Black is dark, black are haggards, black is devil, black is hell, black are mourning clothes, black is anxiety.

It's the fundamental contrast of two "settings" in the culture based on the Good/Evil opposition. It's not the physical color of one's skin what makes somebody on one or on another side of the fence.

 

And color is also arbitrary. Black people are, technically, not black, nor are white white. Wedding clothes are red in some culture. There is no inherent truth in these oppositions. What bugs you is, essentially, cultural baggage, when clashed with your modern day PC.

[ereks mom]

Nah, there isn't any connection to skin colour/race/heritage/whatever going on there...

 

black --> dark --> depressing --> gloomy --> etc

 

[think of big black storm clouds]

 

:iagree:

 

Besides, the day actually WAS black, what with the sun being dark for three hours. I don't see this statement as racially charged at all.

 

:iagree: Actually when you said, "What a black day!" My mind immediately conjured up big black storm clouds. I think of a darkened, gloomy sky, not of race at all.

 

:iagree: with all of the above.

[OhM]

:iagree: With most everything that's been already brought up, but if it helps, here is the Merriam-Webster definition of black.

 

The usage was correct.

[Laurie4b]

I would probably have had your same reaction and I never had govt sensitivity training, just a lot of experiences with African Americans. If you are AA , in a culture that has traditionally used black as synonymous with evil & death, and since your ethnic group has been called black, both pejoratively by others and by choice in reaction ("Black is beautiful"), the word "black" can be loaded. Many AA's would not be offended by your husband's wording, but a question would rise for some. And people do exist who spit out the word black fully conscious of both meanings and intending both meanings.

 

For those reasons, I try to avoid using the color black in a negative way whenever possible.

 

The organization (I'm blanking on the name) that does the backyard Bible studies for little kids and who uses the wordless book of colors to tell the story of salvation changed their wording and when describing the page that represents sin calls it the dark page rather than the black page. Interestingly, though darkness is used as a metaphor for sin in Scripture, the color associated with sin is red: Though your sins be as scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they be red as crimson, they will be like wool.

 

So for me, I would probably have had your gut reaction and would not use the phrase myself as your husband did; neither would I assume it had racist connotations.

[Dinsfamily]

It seems like this was solved, but I just wanted to add: I was doing some research on the history and name of Good Friday yesterday and most of websites also referred to it as Black Friday also. The reasoning seemed to be that the color black is often associated with death and/or that there was an eclipse that day.

 

I was in the military for 9 years, so I understand the artificial strain of government sensitivity classes. :glare:

[Tea Time]

Knowing only these parts of the text, and not thinking of the context, you would have thought the poem is blatantly racist - to the point of forbidding it.

But, let's look at the final part of the poem, to see how it ends:

 

The moon has died.

Dawn glimmers in the window.

Ah, night!

What, night, what have you ruined?

I stand top-hatted.

No one is with me.

I am alone...

And the mirror is broken.

 

 

:hurray:

 

Bravo! Poetry For The WIN!

 

"Darkness" is classically symbolic of our inability to see in the dark which is instinctively frightening to us. Therefore light/darkness are all about perceiving and our senses, not at all about value judgements of colors. It is instinctive for all races to be afraid of the dark. That transfers over into other imagry as mentioned in other posts, images of storms, and the darkness of an eclipse and so forth. You have to be taught wrong to mix this up with the "color" of a person's skin. It does a terrible disservice to poetry and literature to misunderstand this as you can see from this excellent example.

[asta]

:hurray:

 

Bravo! Poetry For The WIN!

 

 

:iagree:

 

And Ester Maria for post 'o the day.

 

 

a

[Crimson Wife]

Are you bothered by the word "sinister" as well? Because that could be interpreted as a slam on left-handed people :tongue_smilie:

[KristenS]

I too would have assumed he meant depressing, and was also literal ... black is the color for Good Friday in liturgical churches that do decorations based on the holiday and season. Our crosses and altar were draped in black yesterday. Plus it's a traditional mourning color.

[MrsMe]

Nah, there isn't any connection to skin colour/race/heritage/whatever going on there...

 

black --> dark --> depressing --> gloomy --> etc

 

[think of big black storm clouds]

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

I never even thought of skin color. It's connected to black because the sky went black.

[Tree House Academy]

I wouldn't have thought another thing about it. He wasn't comparing or suggesting skin colors, he was saying "black" as in gloomy, terrible, sad - like black clouds filling the sky. There is nothing about the word "black" that makes me think of people or skin color unless it is used in a sentence describing such.

 

ETA: Reading other posts before responding would be a good idea in my case, huh? I just repeated what everyone else said. OOPS!

Edited April 3, 2010 by Tree House Academy

[Mrs Mungo]

Nah, there isn't any connection to skin colour/race/heritage/whatever going on there...

 

black --> dark --> depressing --> gloomy --> etc

 

[think of big black storm clouds]

 

:iagree:

[Carol in Cal.]

and I don't consider it inherently racist. I avoid it, though. I just figure that there are other great words to use in that context that don't have any potential to hurt people's feelings, so why not use them.

 

It's like white. We use a pretty old hymnal in our church, and there is a verse that has the line 'and make us white today' and I always sing 'clean' instead. Not because it's offensive to say white, but because I feel better saying clean. No one can hear me; it's not like a big ol statement or anything. Just private devotion to accuracy, intent, respect, and love.

[Lindy]

Good Friday is apparently sometimes referred to as Black Friday.

[Nestof3]

No, I don't think of skin color and races when I hear "What a black day." I think, "what a dark day" -- as in darkness (not light) is sin.

 

When I read about The Black Death I also don't think about races with dark skin.

[Carol in Cal.]

Good Friday is apparently sometimes referred to as Black Friday.

 

I have only heard of Black Friday in the context of the shopping day after Thanksgiving, when retailers hope to finally be 'in the black' year to date.

[Impish]

Nah, there isn't any connection to skin colour/race/heritage/whatever going on there...

 

black --> dark --> depressing --> gloomy --> etc

 

[think of big black storm clouds]

:iagree:

:iagree:

 

Besides, the day actually WAS black, what with the sun being dark for three hours. I don't see this statement as racially charged at all.

:iagree:

[mcconnellboys]

For me, a "black day" has always meant a dark, dreary, or otherwise very bad day. It might be bad weatherwise, or bad because bad things are happening. I've never heard it associated with race in any way whatsoever.

 

I am left-handed and much of the world has from ancient times seen "left" as bad, evil, dirty, etc. (for various reasons).

 

I am female and from ancient times women have been seen as lesser, evil, bad, etc. within many situations of many cultures. But I try not to take offense when I see such references being used. I try to imagine the context that is meant and I don't think it's being used to try to attack me.....

[QueenCat]

Nah, there isn't any connection to skin colour/race/heritage/whatever going on there...

 

black --> dark --> depressing --> gloomy --> etc

 

[think of big black storm clouds]

 

:iagree: The comment doesn't sound like it had anything to do with race.

[Audrey]

Yesterday was Good Friday. Someone who will remain nameless used the above phrase to describe the horror of contemplating how his sins were what put his Lord and Savior on the cross to die. When he said, with emphasis, "What a horrible day! What a black day!" I nearly jumped out of my seat. I don't know why, it just seriously bothered me.

 

FWIW, I am white, my husband is Egyptian (we don't consider this white OR black, LOL, but some sort of "other"), and my children are half-me, half-him. Our friends, coworkers, fellow church members, and neighbors are white AND black. That's normal here, we've grown up in truly integrated communities. My husband didn't think it was problematic to say what was said, because "the color black has always been associated with evil and sin in Western culture and it was used in that way, without reference to skin color or race."

 

I think he's right, and I don't usually get all in a dither about being PC, but this bugs me. Why does this bug me? Do I wince for the way I think it might feel to hear this if my skin were black? Would it bother you, too?

 

 

I didn't read the PPs, but sometimes Good Friday is called Black Friday. Perhaps the person was referencing that? I would try not to take it personally. It doesn't quite sound like that's how it was meant.

[MyFourSons]

Yesterday was Good Friday. Someone who will remain nameless used the above phrase to describe the horror of contemplating how his sins were what put his Lord and Savior on the cross to die. When he said, with emphasis, "What a horrible day! What a black day!" I nearly jumped out of my seat. I don't know why, it just seriously bothered me.

 

FWIW, I am white, my husband is Egyptian (we don't consider this white OR black, LOL, but some sort of "other"), and my children are half-me, half-him. Our friends, coworkers, fellow church members, and neighbors are white AND black. That's normal here, we've grown up in truly integrated communities. My husband didn't think it was problematic to say what was said, because "the color black has always been associated with evil and sin in Western culture and it was used in that way, without reference to skin color or race."

 

I think he's right, and I don't usually get all in a dither about being PC, but this bugs me. Why does this bug me? Do I wince for the way I think it might feel to hear this if my skin were black? Would it bother you, too?

 

I didn't even make the racial connection until I read the rest of your comment. Using the word black to describe something evil or horrible completely predates the United States, let alone the eventual use of the term "black" to describe African American slaves in the US. I think for the sake of your own emotions you need to try not to unconciously become overly PC, it can cause added stress in life.

[MyFourSons]

and I don't consider it inherently racist. I avoid it, though. I just figure that there are other great words to use in that context that don't have any potential to hurt people's feelings, so why not use them.

 

It's like white. We use a pretty old hymnal in our church, and there is a verse that has the line 'and make us white today' and I always sing 'clean' instead. Not because it's offensive to say white, but because I feel better saying clean. No one can hear me; it's not like a big ol statement or anything. Just private devotion to accuracy, intent, respect, and love.

 

I see how you are trying to be sensitive to others feelings, but the use of the colors white and black as imagery of good and evil in our language completely predates the use of white and black as racial monikers. Why should the original meaning be thrown completely aside in poetry, literture, and music simply because the United States has a history of racial discrimination?

 

I am making the case in this example because Western culture and the English language have such a rich history of using this type of imagery and symbolism in art, literature, poetry, etc. It would be a shame to throw out thousands of years of traditions and fine art because of the the last 200 years in the US.

[Lizzie in Ma]

black

   /blæk/ Show Spelled [blak] Show IPA adjective, -er, -est, noun, verb, adverb

–adjective

1.

lacking hue and brightness; absorbing light without reflecting any of the rays composing it.

2.

characterized by absence of light; enveloped in darkness: a black night.

3.

( sometimes initial capital letter )

a.

pertaining or belonging to any of the various populations characterized by dark skin pigmentation, specifically the dark-skinned peoples of Africa, Oceania, and Australia.

b.

African-American.

4.

soiled or stained with dirt: That shirt was black within an hour.

5.

gloomy; pessimistic; dismal: a black outlook.

6.

deliberately; harmful; inexcusable: a black lie.

7.

boding ill; sullen or hostile; threatening: black words; black looks.

8.

(of coffee or tea) without milk or cream.

9.

without any moral quality or goodness; evil; wicked: His black heart has concocted yet another black deed.

10.

indicating censure, disgrace, or liability to punishment: a black mark on one's record.

11.

marked by disaster or misfortune: black areas of drought; Black Friday.

12.

wearing black or dark clothing or armor: the black prince.

13.

based on the grotesque, morbid, or unpleasant aspects of life: black comedy; black humor.

14.

(of a check mark, flag, etc.) done or written in black to indicate, as on a list, that which is undesirable, sub-standard, potentially dangerous, etc.: Pilots put a black flag next to the ten most dangerous airports.

15.

illegal or underground: The black economy pays no taxes.

16.

showing a profit; not showing any losses: the first black quarter in two years.

17.

deliberately false or intentionally misleading: black propaganda.

18.

British . boycotted, as certain goods or products by a trade union.

19.

(of steel) in the form in which it comes from the rolling mill or forge; unfinished.

[Carol in Cal.]

I see how you are trying to be sensitive to others feelings, but the use of the colors white and black as imagery of good and evil in our language completely predates the use of white and black as racial monikers. Why should the original meaning be thrown completely aside in poetry, literture, and music simply because the United States has a history of racial discrimination?

 

I am making the case in this example because Western culture and the English language have such a rich history of using this type of imagery and symbolism in art, literature, poetry, etc. It would be a shame to throw out thousands of years of traditions and fine art because of the the last 200 years in the US.

 

I put it aside to be more kind.