s/o Ezzos & Pearls - Church parenting classes (cc, but anyone welcome)

[Daisy]

I've been thinking about church parenting classes and wondering why we never see any focus on discipling our children? It seems to be that regardless of the material chosen the focus is on exacting immediate obedience through the use of corporal punishment, routine, etc. Discipling, Modeling, positive training, etc. are always thrown in as a sort of vague disclaimer but it is never actually TAUGHT (while spanking is taught down to the very type of instrument and number of swats).

 

Why not produce materials that actually teach parents how to positively and constructively parent with grace and love?

 

Why talk about extending grace, forgiveness, patience, to our fellow Christians and ourselves and yet not be taught to extend the same thing to our children?

 

Have any of the Christians on the board ever attended a parenting class at their church that actually taught (really taught, not just casually mentioned) how to gently admonish our children and bring them up in the grace and nurture of the Lord?

[LizzyBee]

Yes, I did a great parenting class at my church, but I don't remember the name of it.

[Daisy]

If you think of it, maybe you can list it here or pm me, k? I'd love to find something that worked well in a group setting.

[Jean in Newcastle]

My friend's church did "Love and Logic" seminars. I'm quite certain that doesn't use corporal punishment.

[T'smom]

I'm doing a bible study right now based on a book by Kevin Leman. It's not the best stuff I've ever read- but there is NOT a focus on immediate obedience. There is a focus on letting kids learn lessons through real-life consequences. I am only about halfway through the study though. (It's a mom's bible study- but the book sometimes says to pair up with another couple, so I think the book was designed to be used by both parents at the same time.)

[Parrothead]

Why church parenting classes or parenting based on a religious model at all? Do spankers really need someone of religious authority to sanction spanking? In the same light do time-outers need religious sanction?

 

Honestly, the Pearls get away with their crap because it sounds religiously sanctioned.

[elizabeth]

Our Catholic parish uses Parenting with Love and Logic presented by Boystown and our priest who is also a licensed therapist, as part of the mandatory coursework to be completed prior to our child's First Holy Communion.

http://www.loveandlogic.com/

Edited March 5, 2010 by elizabeth
link

[JVA]

We just started a bible study for our MOPS moms last Friday..... I really like the book and video series that was chosen for this. It is practical and doesn't have any of the extreme notions that the Pearls or Ezzos subscribe to. The videos and worksheets prompted LOTS of discussion- so great to see these young moms share.

 

Parenting is Heart Work by Dr. Scott Turansky and Joanne Miller

http://www.biblicalparenting.org/

[Cricket]

Our adult sunday school class went through the book The Heart of Anger by Lou Priolo. That book focused on the short-comings of the parents as well as the children. I don't like parenting books that seem to be all about getting the child to obey. Obviously, I want my children to obey, but they somehow fail to recognize that we as parents are sinners too and often fail our children. One thing my parents never failed to do was to apologize to us. The more I look back on that, the more I think that was probably the best thing they could have done. It never allowed us to build up resentment towards them. It showed us that we were all in this together and there never was an attitude of us v. them between my parents and us kids.

 

I've read Shepherding a Child's Heart by Tedd Tripp after a woman at my church recommended it to me. That seems to be along the same idea. We are to disciple our children. Whatever discipline used should bring a child and parent into reconciliation, not separation. I just thumbed through the book and here is one sentence I underlined: "What is important in correction is not venting your feelings, anger or hurt; it is, rather, understanding the nature of the struggle that your child is having." Get to the heart of the matter.

 

One friend of mine made a comment once that has always stuck with me. She said that one day after her daughter had done something she shouldn't have and she was ready to discipline her, it dawned on her that even though she needs to expect obedience, she also needs to model God's grace.

[smrtmama]

As a secular parent, I've heard great things about the Parenting w/ Love and Logic classes. I also know of at least one area church that offers them (the UU church might, as well).

[Daisy]

Why church parenting classes or parenting based on a religious model at all? Do spankers really need someone of religious authority to sanction spanking? In the same light do time-outers need religious sanction?

 

Honestly, the Pearls get away with their crap because it sounds religiously sanctioned.

 

Because most churches want to address areas of concern for its congregation (marriage, parenting, single parents, finances) and they are ONLY going to do that within a Biblical worldview framework. Regardless of our thoughts on that, it simply works that way.

[SonshineLearner]

It showed us that we were all in this together and there never was an attitude of us v. them between my parents and us kids.

 

One friend of mine made a comment once that has always stuck with me. She said that one day after her daughter had done something she shouldn't have and she was ready to discipline her, it dawned on her that even though she needs to expect obedience, she also needs to model God's grace.

 

Wow! Two great thoughts!! :001_smile:

[BakersDozen]

When we teach parenting classes we always include Tripp's "Shepherding a Child's Heart". Any book we use includes a strong message from us on the balance of grace/mercy in training/raising children.

[TXMomof4]

My friend's church did "Love and Logic" seminars. I'm quite certain that doesn't use corporal punishment.

 

I am a BIG fan of Love and Logic. It's just so darn logical! Not punitive, just really training kids that there are consequences for the decisions they make.

[Carol in Cal.]

"Right From the Start" which is a Christian, sort of vaguely attachment parenting approach to taking care of babies through about toddler ages. But it's more focussed on how you show the character and love of God to your children by how you treat them as well as by what you say and do. It's not a completely comprehensive parenting program.

 

And our former pastor used to teach a parenting class loosely based on the concepts from 'I'm OK, You're OK' but very Christianized and conservative. He was a strong guy, a bit of a loving control freak, so what he did showed as much as what he said. He and his lovely wife raised 3 wonderful daughters, and so it was nice to check the fruit on the tree and say, wow, that really worked out well! It was his own material, though, and not a formal curriculum.

 

I consider the Sears books to be a good basis for such a class, myself.

 

However, I'm Lutheran, and with our concept of adiophora, we wouldn't normally teach about this very normatively. We would say that people need to raise their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, and that they need to ask for God's guidance in doing so, and turn to more mature Christians for that purpose, but we would not say that God wants EVERYONE to attachment parent, for instance. We are very careful about maybe overstepping and speaking beyond what God has actually said in His word.

[Dobela]

Love and logic is a great resource. We were taught it when we were foster parents. I have seen it offered at churches and secular locations. We actually attended training twice - once in each setting. Each then adapted it to the audience. I remember the presenter in the church pointing out scripture that correlated to some of the techniques.

 

There was once a lady in our homeschool group that used the items from Doorposts. She had learned about them in a church she had attended as part of a parenting class. The Doorposts charts work well with Love and Logic, IMO.

[Mrs Mungo]

Parent Effectiveness Training

 

Love and Logic

[Parrothead]

Our Catholic parish uses Parenting with Love and Logic presented by Boystown and our priest who is also a licensed therapist, as part of the mandatory coursework to be completed prior to our child's First Holy Communion.

http://www.loveandlogic.com/

I do believe that I would have had to gone to a different parish if someone's parenting philosophy was forced on me as mandatory to dd receiving her sacraments.

[Parrothead]

Because most churches want to address areas of concern for its congregation (marriage, parenting, single parents, finances) and they are ONLY going to do that within a Biblical worldview framework. Regardless of our thoughts on that, it simply works that way.

Okaay. I might be able to wrap my mind around seeing a priest (or appropriate clergy) for marital advice - maybe. But not parenting, finances and the like.

 

I've seen people comment about talking to church elders because their spouse does _______ with money. So I know that some people do it. Me, personally, no, I do not think I could. I may be old fashioned or strange, but I feel that there are some things that are private and not meant to be shared. I especially think these things (finances, details of my marriage, etc.) should not be shared in a group setting.

 

That is me though. To each his own.

Edited March 5, 2010 by Parrothead

[lionfamily1999]

Okaay. I might be able to wrap my mind around seeing a priest (or appropriate clergy) for marital advice - maybe. But not parenting, finances and the like.

 

I've seen people comment about talking to church elders because their spouse does _______ with money. So I know that some people do it. Me, personally, no, I do not think I could. I may be old fashioned or strange, but I feel that there are some things that are private and not meant to be shared. I especially think these things should not be shared in a group setting.

 

That is me though. To each his own.

I agree, to each his own. I think some people rely on their faith/religion to answer every single question and if they need guidance they go to their faith/religious leaders (if they can't find their own answers in their holy books).

[Daisy]

Parrothead, I actually agree with you because I'm a very private person. However, there are a lot of people who ask for these types of classes.

 

I'm glad to hear there are alternatives to the Ezzo's and Pearl's. I'm saddened that the majority of churches I've attended in the past (perhaps due to the denomination of my childhood?) have gravitated more towards the Ezzo/Pearl type material.

 

Our current church has not offered such a class, but if it comes up, I'll have something to contribute to the discussion of what type of materials would be best.

[coffeefreak]

When we teach parenting classes we always include Tripp's "Shepherding a Child's Heart". Any book we use includes a strong message from us on the balance of grace/mercy in training/raising children.

 

 

But Tripp also advocates spanking, and when I read his book, it was along the same line as the Pearl's. Has something changed?

:confused:

[KnitWit]

I've not read it, but someone recently told me of a book called "Gospel Powered Parenting" by Farley. I was told that it is very grace based.

 

I had sworn off all books like this, but I may read this one.

[Pamela H in Texas]

We don't do "classes" in our religion.

 

However, discipline is sometimes mentioned during meetings, talks (like sermons), and in our literature. It is VERY much based on guidance and scripture. Though someone may mention punishment, it is not taught by any stretch. Our entire religion, on discussing ANY topic, though, is based on reasoning, using scripture, reaching the heart, and "owning it." So it makes sense that discipline is similar.

 

The idea is that children (all people really) need teaching and guidance, but in the end, the ones being taught will be able to fully understand, apply it in their lives and own it as their own...and then they should be able to pass it on also.

[BakersDozen]

Originally Posted by LuvnMySvn

When we teach parenting classes we always include Tripp's "Shepherding a Child's Heart". Any book we use includes a strong message from us on the balance of grace/mercy in training/raising children.

 

But Tripp also advocates spanking, and when I read his book, it was along the same line as the Pearl's. Has something changed?

 

I've read both books also and never thought of Tripp's book being anything close to the Pearl's. In fact it was because of what I read in the Pearl's book that I focus on Tripp's as it deals with heart issues, relationship-building, trust, etc. There is some of that in the Pearl's but it can get "lost" amid the instructions for physical discipline. We've found Tripp's book to bring great balance because many parents just want to know how to "deal" with their dc and do not consider that "dealing" includes more than simply stopping a behavior.

 

I'll have to pull Tripp's book out again for a refresher read. :)

[mommaduck]

There's a book called Grace-Based Parenting as well. I haven't read it, so don't hold me to anything it says, but it is supposed to be AP.

 

Thank you for the Love and Logic link, though I do agree with Parrothead though, that requirement would bother me.

[angela in ohio]

I'd say youre just going to the wrong classes and reading the wrong books. Shepherding a Child's Heart comes to mind immediately, which gives extrememly detailed information on how to build a relationship of communication with your child. Dr. S.M. Davis' materials, Ted Tripp, Steve Demme, Reb Bradley... there are many who give very detailed instructions on how to disciple our children.

[Laurie4b]

Why church parenting classes or parenting based on a religious model at all? Do spankers really need someone of religious authority to sanction spanking? In the same light do time-outers need religious sanction?

 

Honestly, the Pearls get away with their crap because it sounds religiously sanctioned.

 

I can't really tell if this is a real question or a snarky rhetorical question.

 

If it's a real question:

 

The answer is that because many people of faith believe that the worldview of their faith should impact every single action of their lives. "Parenting" is one of the most important things I do as part of my faith. What is my goal in parenting? To me, that has a faith-based answer. What methods of achieving that goal are acceptable? Again, that has a faith-based answer. What methods of are not acceptable according to my understanding of my faith? What am I supposed to be learning and how does parenting help me grow in my faith?

Parenting is more than discrete skills: it's a way of life.

[Daisy]

I'd say youre just going to the wrong classes and reading the wrong books.

 

I hear what you are saying, but my point was that I've never seen anything except for Ezzo/Pearl-like materials offered in my area. I have never willingly chosen to attend a parenting class. It isn't my thing. However, Sunday school classes that I have attended for a long time & were my "social network" have in the past chosen to do a short-term study on the topic of parenting. I've always been disappointed by the material.

 

I am surprised and very pleased to discover that other materials exist. Perhaps if we get the information out more, people will stop heading to the Ezzo's and Pearl's out of some super conservative default setting??

[angela in ohio]

I hear what you are saying, but my point was that I've never seen anything except for Ezzo/Pearl-like materials offered in my area. I have never willingly chosen to attend a parenting class. It isn't my thing. However, Sunday school classes that I have attended for a long time & were my "social network" have in the past chosen to do a short-term study on the topic of parenting. I've always been disappointed by the material.

 

I am surprised and very pleased to discover that other materials exist. Perhaps if we get the information out more, people will stop heading to the Ezzo's and Pearl's out of some super conservative default setting??

 

Most in my circle use the ones I mentioned, plus the Wilsons. A few use TTUAC, and I saw an Ezzo book on someone's shelf once ;), but have never heard a word about them.

[Laurie4b]

I've been thinking about church parenting classes and wondering why we never see any focus on discipling our children? It seems to be that regardless of the material chosen the focus is on exacting immediate obedience through the use of corporal punishment, routine, etc. Discipling, Modeling, positive training, etc. are always thrown in as a sort of vague disclaimer but it is never actually TAUGHT (while spanking is taught down to the very type of instrument and number of swats).

 

Why not produce materials that actually teach parents how to positively and constructively parent with grace and love?

 

Why talk about extending grace, forgiveness, patience, to our fellow Christians and ourselves and yet not be taught to extend the same thing to our children?

 

Have any of the Christians on the board ever attended a parenting class at their church that actually taught (really taught, not just casually mentioned) how to gently admonish our children and bring them up in the grace and nurture of the Lord?

 

Except through homeschool circles, I've never seen anything but what you are asking for.

 

Center for Church Based Training publishes "Parenting with a Purpose." It's meant to be done in a small group format. Each chapter includes case studies, relevant sections of Scripture, a chapter from 2 or 3 Christian parenting books on that subject (sort of the "best of the best"), a section for your personal response (before the group), group discussion questions. What I really like about the program is the last part of the class is set aside for each couple to break out on its own and write a plan for how they will apply the principles in the chapter for their specific kids. It is not a "one size fits all" parenting course. It's a 12 chapter spiral bound book: the first six chapters cover basic parenting viewed through a Christian lens; the last half covers specifically spiritual training of children. When our church did it, we added in a component of having a mentor couple (kids grown up and walking with the Lord) with each group, so it wasn't the blind leading the blind. The mentor couples were quick to acknowledge that there was more they didn't know than that they did know, but it was wonderful to be able to get their gems of wisdom added into the discussion.

 

I found it extremely helpful.

 

It think one of the best parts is that it doesn't claim to have "the" answer.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Laurie4b

[elizabeth]

I do believe that I would have had to gone to a different parish if someone's parenting philosophy was forced on me as mandatory to dd receiving her sacraments.

 

Hmm I do not know how to respond other than this anecdotal experience. For me it was a blessing to learn something other than the fear based obedience that for me and my siblings was toxic in every way possible. I needed to be exposed to other ways of thinking about discipline and conflict resolution than what I had previously known. Not because I did not know better but having skills and practice at defusing situations has been helpful in so many ways other than only the sphere of parenting. One could sit through the workshop read nothing and share nothing if that was what you wished to do. I saw many doing just that . That is their deal but for me it was the best thing ever as I had no idea what I wanted other than not to do what my parents did. That is just not good enough and I am grateful for the assistance that I needed.

[Joanne]

Why not produce materials that actually teach parents how to positively and constructively parent with grace and love?

 

There are some.

 

While I don't think Tripp is like the Pearls, I also don't like his parenting materials.

 

Decent Sources:

 

http://www.effectiveparenting.org/

 

http://www.activeparenting.com/index.cfm

 

http://www.drleman.com/store/

 

I'll come and do a weekend set of classes. :D

 

So will my friend Crystal:

 

http://aolff.org/

 

The Clarksons have good parenting stuff:

 

http://www.wholeheart.org/whmain.php

[Parrothead]

I agree, to each his own. I think some people rely on their faith/religion to answer every single question and if they need guidance they go to their faith/religious leaders (if they can't find their own answers in their holy books).

Wow. I suppose that is how the Pearls and their ilk say in business, and children continue to get abused. Some people will truly not think for themselves.

 

I'm glad that all the parenting classes do not use those vile people's book.

 

Parrothead, I actually agree with you because I'm a very private person. However, there are a lot of people who ask for these types of classes.

 

I had absolutely no idea. I've never seen one advertised in any parish I've been to. But that only shows how limited my experience has been.

 

 

 

Thank you for the Love and Logic link, though I do agree with Parrothead though, that requirement would bother me.

Just to clarify, parenting classes are not part of every Catholic parish's sacramental preparation class.

 

I can't really tell if this is a real question or a snarky rhetorical question.

 

If it's a real question:

 

The answer is that because many people of faith believe that the worldview of their faith should impact every single action of their lives. "Parenting" is one of the most important things I do as part of my faith. What is my goal in parenting? To me, that has a faith-based answer. What methods of achieving that goal are acceptable? Again, that has a faith-based answer. What methods of are not acceptable according to my understanding of my faith? What am I supposed to be learning and how does parenting help me grow in my faith?

Parenting is more than discrete skills: it's a way of life.

Yes, it is an honest to goodness real question. In the same manner that you find it hard to believe people do not feel the need to raise their children in a loving Christian home without parenting classes, I find it hard to believe that people do not think for themselves and parent their children as they see fit without outside interference. To me I think it is overstepping if your priest/pastor tells you how to reconcile your child eating peas or not. As one of the two people that knows my child best, I can't imagine listening to too much advise about raising her.

 

What do you do if the instructions you receive from your priest/pastor are not working? Are you allowed to try time outs if spanking doesn't work or vice versa?

.

Hmm I do not know how to respond other than this anecdotal experience. For me it was a blessing to learn something other than the fear based obedience that for me and my siblings was toxic in every way possible. I needed to be exposed to other ways of thinking about discipline and conflict resolution than what I had previously known. Not because I did not know better but having skills and practice at defusing situations has been helpful in so many ways other than only the sphere of parenting. One could sit through the workshop read nothing and share nothing if that was what you wished to do. I saw many doing just that . That is their deal but for me it was the best thing ever as I had no idea what I wanted other than not to do what my parents did. That is just not good enough and I am grateful for the assistance that I needed.

Had you not been raising your child for 6 or 7 years before his sacramental preparation?

 

I think that is what I find odd about this being part of sacramental prep. By the time the child is old enough for First Holy Communion his/her parents should have a firm grasp on parenting, especially if there are no psychological or medical issues.

 

When I was PCL in our last parish, I would have never dreamed of having parenting classes as part of our sacramental prep program. Honestly it blows my mind.

[elizabeth]

Naturally I had been raising her for many years by then. I always think I can improve, expand and build upon my experience and knowledge base. This for me was a great opportunity. If your parenting skills are moderately good why not seek to be better?? If I was using the same disciplinary and guidance techniques on my 13 year old that were appropriate at 7 then that to me is not acceptable. Whatever works for others is fine by me .

[HRAAB]

Our Catholic parish uses Parenting with Love and Logic presented by Boystown and our priest who is also a licensed therapist, as part of the mandatory coursework to be completed prior to our child's First Holy Communion.

http://www.loveandlogic.com/

 

 

I guess the issue I would have with this is if it was mandatory for sacramental preparation. Actually our parish has offered the same parenting classes (not tied to sacrament prep.), and I think it is great they are doing this. Many parents can benefit from well done classes. Not all of us come into parenting with the best skill set. Still, if it had been required for me to attend before my dd could receive First Holy Communion, I think that might have pushed me over the edge. But right now it wouldn't take much to push me over the edge so that probably makes my opinion less credible.

[elizabeth]

I guess the issue I would have with this is if it was mandatory for sacramental preparation. Actually our parish has offered the same parenting classes (not tied to sacrament prep.), and I think it is great they are doing this. Many parents can benefit from well done classes. Not all of us come into parenting with the best skill set. Still, if it had been required for me to attend before my dd could receive First Holy Communion, I think that might have pushed me over the edge. But right now it wouldn't take much to push me over the edge so that probably makes my opinion less credible.

 

I think you are a very credible woman. No pat answers, lots of questions, most the sort that defy a definitive answer. If I were forced to label you the words would be along the lines of very credible and a valued presence who brings humility to the forefront. I think you are groovy. That is all.

[SonshineLearner]

Actually, it's kinda funny, but if you've looked on the Love and Logic site, they do the hard sell for when you come sign up for school. You sign Johnny up for kindergarten, and the school says, "Great, we have a parenting class that parents here like to take so we can all be on the same page. Would you like to come on Mondays or Thursdays for the class." I'd rather have that from Church than the school....

 

:-)

[Laurie4b]

 

Yes, it is an honest to goodness real question. In the same manner that you find it hard to believe people do not feel the need to raise their children in a loving Christian home without parenting classes, I find it hard to believe that people do not think for themselves and parent their children as they see fit without outside interference. To me I think it is overstepping if your priest/pastor tells you how to reconcile your child eating peas or not. As one of the two people that knows my child best, I can't imagine listening to too much advise about raising her.

 

What do you do if the instructions you receive from your priest/pastor are not working? Are you allowed to try time outs if spanking doesn't work or vice versa?

.

 

QUOTE]

 

Could you tone it down? You're making really snarky generalized comments about churches that offer parenting classes and the people who would want to take them. While I'm sure that there are churches out there that fit your prejudices, I've never come into contact with any who would fit your characterizations and I'm familiar with multiple churches of different denominations in our area.

 

I never said that I found it hard to believe that people don't feel a need to raise their children in a loving Christian home without parenting classes. If a set of parents don't feel a need for a class, that's a-okay with me. Cool. Wonderful. No problem. Why would I think it was a problem? Just because II might be interested in learning more doesn't mean everyone else would be.

 

Parenting classes at churches can be like parenting classes at the YMCA. None of our church's classes on any subject is mandatory, except a short membership class if you want to join. People from other churches and the community can attend our classes. Classes are offered as a service, to help people grow spiritually and in other ways; they are not someone shoving something down your throat. So why would someone attend a parenting class? To get better at parenting. Why does attending a class mean you can't think for yourself? When you attend classes at colleges, some professors act like they know everything. Most students take what they want even from those teachers, but learn from nearly every teacher. It's the same with a parenting class at a church. It doesn't have to be some weird, interfering, controlling thing. It can just be a class---taken of your own free will and applied as suits your family.

[Elaine]

I've been thinking about church parenting classes and wondering why we never see any focus on discipling our children? It seems to be that regardless of the material chosen the focus is on exacting immediate obedience through the use of corporal punishment, routine, etc. Discipling, Modeling, positive training, etc. are always thrown in as a sort of vague disclaimer but it is never actually TAUGHT (while spanking is taught down to the very type of instrument and number of swats).

 

Why not produce materials that actually teach parents how to positively and constructively parent with grace and love?

 

Why talk about extending grace, forgiveness, patience, to our fellow Christians and ourselves and yet not be taught to extend the same thing to our children?

 

Have any of the Christians on the board ever attended a parenting class at their church that actually taught (really taught, not just casually mentioned) how to gently admonish our children and bring them up in the grace and nurture of the Lord?

 

 

We went to this seminar and it was great. http://www.sheridanhouse.org/Resources/parenting_on_purpose.aspx

 

I highly recommend Dr.Barnes

[Carol in Cal.]

Actually, it's kinda funny, but if you've looked on the Love and Logic site, they do the hard sell for when you come sign up for school. You sign Johnny up for kindergarten, and the school says, "Great, we have a parenting class that parents here like to take so we can all be on the same page. Would you like to come on Mondays or Thursdays for the class." I'd rather have that from Church than the school....

 

:-)

 

At a school where parents might participate in their children's classrooms, it is really important that there be a common approach to discipline. Parent coop preschools and elementary schools require or strongly suggest positive discipline classes for all parents around here. You are not required to use those techniques at home, but around the children in the classroom and on field trips it is the expected norm.

 

OTOH, for a church to teach such a class tends to imply that that is how God wants it, and really, God often leaves a lot more room for individualization than those parenting classes do!

[Elaine]

It's the same with a parenting class at a church. It doesn't have to be some weird, interfering, controlling thing. It can just be a class---taken of your own free will and applied as suits your family.

 

You make excellent points, Laurie.

 

But here, unfortunately, we are all lumped together as the Christians who beat their children because Michael Pearl told us to. We can't think for ourselves so we head to command central for our marching orders.:001_rolleyes:

[Chris in VA]

By the time the child is old enough for First Holy Communion his/her parents should have a firm grasp on parenting, especially if there are no psychological or medical issues.--Parrothead

 

Thought my grasp was pretty firm until my kid turned 12. I see you have a 10 year old...:D

 

To the OP--I went thru STEP--systematic training for effective parenting. Didn't use everything, but it was ok. Not Christian, but I could see Christians using it.

I don't credit it for helping us deal with our kids' problems, and I don't discredit it for causing them.

 

Kids are people, and people live in community, and communities of people are complex systems that do not remain static. There's no magic formula. Some things that work beautifully with some kids in some circumstances will not work with others. And they may not work as kids age and change, and parents age and change. Not saying there isn't any good advice out there, just don't expect to apply a method and have that method work consistently, 100% of the time.

[lionfamily1999]

Wow. I suppose that is how the Pearls and their ilk say in business, and children continue to get abused. Some people will truly not think for themselves.

 

I'm glad that all the parenting classes do not use those vile people's book.

 

.....

 

Yes, it is an honest to goodness real question. In the same manner that you find it hard to believe people do not feel the need to raise their children in a loving Christian home without parenting classes, I find it hard to believe that people do not think for themselves and parent their children as they see fit without outside interference. To me I think it is overstepping if your priest/pastor tells you how to reconcile your child eating peas or not. As one of the two people that knows my child best, I can't imagine listening to too much advise about raising her.

 

What do you do if the instructions you receive from your priest/pastor are not working? Are you allowed to try time outs if spanking doesn't work or vice versa?

...

Some people believe that God has given us a manual for life and that what you consider to be "thinking for themselves" is actually rebellion against God.

 

Those same people would hardly think of God, His Word, or the church leaders He has set over them, as "interference." Especially considering that those people are going to their leaders, and the Word, for instruction or guidance.

 

That same God that created manuals for living and set people in authority over those people gave us all free will. What we do with it is up to us.

[coffeefreak]

I read Clay Clarkson's Heartfelt Discipline, but it doesn't look like that's in print anymore. In it, he talks about how he ruined his relationship with one of his own children, and was in the process of repairing it. He talks about the things he does differently with his younger children, and what he would have done differently with the older child (I believe the older child was 11 or 12 at the time). I was really moved by his compassion and understanding of how he was sucked into the "spare the rod, spoil the child" mentality, and how the Lord showed him a better way. Looking back, I guess that's the book that was the most influential on us when our kids where little. It was a sort of compromise between us and our denomination at the time. He explains that first time obedience is unreasonable for grammar school kids, and some kid's personalities/learning styles make it darn near impossible. He also talks about spanking and how he never does it anymore. However, he admits it's because he took it too far and feels he SHOULD never do it again. He outlines guidelines for those who want them, but stresses that you should really seek the Lord as to whether a child's offense really warrants corporal punishment. He would only use it as a last resort, and only in a logical situation (ie child hits another child, child gets a spanking).

 

 

As for Ted Tripp and Shepherding a Child's Heart, I read that book at the same time I initially read TTUAC, which is why I was unsure how severe his book was. I still remember not caring for it, but maybe I'm confusing some of his methods with the Pearl's. My former church taught the Pearls, and I re-read their book later, to see if I was "missing something." That same church would have S.M. Davis come preach once a year. I did not hear his sermons on child-rearing, but I'm not sure I'd care for any of them. I have heard his sermon, "Why every family needs a Pastor." His denomination is very Patriarchal, and believes that the Pastor of your church is "IN CHARGE" of your family. That sermon outlines why you should not be doing anything with your children without your Pastor's approval. He believes you have a personal relationship with God, but that the Lord gives your Pastor insight into your life that you may not have. I am not judging those who agree with his teachings, I simply bring this up because, I don't think it's what Daisy is looking for.

 

 

HTH!

Dorinda

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would assume (correctly I hope) that Daisy will read or watch each of these suggestions in their entirety before recommending anything.

[coffeefreak]

What do you do if the instructions you receive from your priest/pastor are not working? Are you allowed to try time outs if spanking doesn't work or vice versa?

 

 

In our case, we were told to leave. And we did.:001_smile: That's an extreme though, just like the Pearls and the Ezzos. That's what we have to remember, not everyone is extreme and should be lumped together, but it's hard to know who is and who isn't. The extreme people/groups know they have to have a certain amount of "normalcy" in order to be accepted. Which makes it hard to always know who is the "wolf" and who is the "shepherd."

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

[Daisy]

I read Clay Clarkson's Heartfelt Discipline, but it doesn't look like that's in print anymore. In it, he talks about how he ruined his relationship with one of his own children, and was in the process of repairing it. He talks about the things he does differently with his younger children, and what he would have done differently with the older child (I believe the older child was 11 or 12 at the time). I was really moved by his compassion and understanding of how he was sucked into the "spare the rod, spoil the child" mentality, and how the Lord showed him a better way. Looking back, I guess that's the book that was the most influential on us when our kids where little.

 

HTH!

Dorinda

 

Thank you for the thorough review. I'll definitely look in to this book.

[Daisy]

I would assume (correctly I hope) that Daisy will read or watch each of these suggestions in their entirety before recommending anything.

 

You assume correctly. :) And you'll find that I'll probably be less likely to 100% endorse anything, but rather present alternatives, should more extreme suggestions be made to the church leadership.

[Joanne]

I thought of another one!

 

http://www.familymatters.net/grace-based_parenting/Video_Study/index.asp