Public school teaches children how to be "citizens" (apparently)

[elizabeth]

Elizabeth, have you read Alexander Dolgun's story: An American in the Gulag ? It's an amazing book, and time for me to reread it. Thanks for reminding me.

 

I have not read this and thank you for the information. Off to add to my amazon list.

[mcconnellboys]

Excuse me, but please do not deign to tell me how I may characterize what I think of the American education system. The word "gulag", like many words in the English language has multiple meanings. Before assuming an incorrect meaning, why not take the 1-2 seconds to google it? Here is the meaning that fits my description of what I see as the future of the American educational system:

 

gu·lag also Gu·lag (gläg)

n.

A place or situation of great suffering and hardship, likened to the atmosphere in a prison system or a forced labor camp.

 

I believe that I am free to comment on the OP's thread as I see fit, which would include any words I deem appropriate in completing my thoughts.

 

And since I am so exceedingly weary of some on these boards constantly attacking those who attempt to post anything thoughtful in a thread, rather than posting multiple replies, I will just take this opportunity to simply post here regarding numerous descriptions of the theory of Educational Progressivism which has been around for quite a long time (and which have never, to my knowledge, been associated with any particular political party):

 

http://www.wilderdom.com/experiential/JohnDeweyPhilosophyEducation.html

 

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/ed416/PP3.html

 

http://www.answers.com/topic/educational-progressivism

 

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Educational+progressivism

(note: this is a FREE dictionary; anyone may use it; it took me two seconds to find it)

 

I believe that both E. D. Hirsch and John Gatto have written about this educational philosophy and its effects on our system of learning in this country. I do not believe that someone such as Glenn Beck has taken up the topic of educational progressivism (as yet)......

[elizabeth]

gu·lag [ g lg ] (plural gu·lags)

 

 

noun

 

Definition:

 

1. political prison in former USSR: a prison or labor camp in the former Soviet Union, to which opponents of the government were sent

 

 

2. prison camp network in former USSR: the network of political prisons and labor camps in the former Soviet Union

 

 

3. former Soviet prisons department: the department of the former Soviet security service that was responsible for running the network of political prisons

 

 

4. prison for dissenters: any place that dissenters are sent to, or the isolating or imprisoning of dissenters

 

 

[Mid-20th century. < Russian, acronym < Glavnoe upravlenie ispravitelno-trudovykh lagerei "Chief Administration for Corrective Labor Camps"]

Naturally one can use metaphors or for that matter create definitions as desired. It does not however make it true.

[mcconnellboys]

Your choice of dictionaries obviously leaves much to be desired, but accusing others of making up definitions is simply ridiculous:

 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gulag

[Charles Wallace]

One of my cousins is an education major working on her master's degree. One of her big issues is arguing against unregulated homeschooling. I got into a discussion with her about this on a Facebook chat. She had a lot of the usual issues: Concerns that these children are not being exposed to other cultures, concerns that they are receiving more religious education than true education, blah, blah, blah. But I must say, the thing I had the biggest problem with was her assertion that public school teaches children how to be citizens, and that a homeschool environment doesn't necessarily teach children how to be citizens.

 

This blows my mind just a bit. What does that mean, exactly? I never thought any training was required on "how to be a citizen". I mean, we're born in this country we are citizens of this country aren't we? No matter how narrow-minded or uneducated a person may be, if they were born in this country they are citizens, right? You don't need training to exist.

 

What aspect of citizenship does public school teach, I wonder? How to stand in line and obey government certified authority figures?

 

I think a child learns more about the real world and its rules by being out in the real world. I think the rules of the real world are far more valuable than those learned within the walls of a public school.

 

I don't know what it is that bothers me so much about the idea of public school teaching children to be "citizens". Does that bother anyone else?

 

Sure...but your sister may not be considering what that really means. Tell her to consult the legal case of Pierce vs. Society of Sisters. In the Pierce case, the essential issue was that immigrants (read: Catholics of Italian and Irish descent) weren't being properly "socialized" -- that is, they weren't being turned into good American citizens. Public schools were seen as that agent of socialization and citizenship and it was proposed that Catholic schools -- which just kept those immigrants all immigranty, after all -- be abolished.

 

The Supreme Court didn't agree. Expressing the majority opinion of the court, "Associate Justice James Clark McReynolds stated that children were not 'the mere creature of the state' (268 U.S. 510, 535), and that, by its very nature, the traditional American understanding of the term liberty prevented the state from forcing students to accept instruction only from public schools. He stated that this responsibility belonged to the child's parents or guardians, and that the ability to make such a choice was a 'liberty' protected by the Fourteenth Amendment." (Source: Wikipedia)

 

So in short, the darker side of the public school citizenship your sister is speaking of crosses the line into something more like conformity or perhaps groupthink.

 

A true democracy, by contrast, depends upon divergence and difference of opinion, not homogeneity. True democracy demands that there be at least two sides, two views, two opinions -- not one monolithic one.

 

Oh, and speaking as a public school teacher, I'd like to assure you that we don't group the students in the auditorium and go all Clockwork Orange on the kids. Sorry!:D In short, the reality is that although some folks would've liked to have turned public schools into these agents of mass homogenization, it didn't happen because the Supreme Court shot it down. The other reality is that some folks (and it sounds like your sis might be leaning in this direction more than not) would like to reverse that basic decision, but I still don't think it's going to happen because -- surprise -- the Fourteenth Amendment is still pretty much alive and well, last time I looked.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Charles Wallace

[Charles Wallace]

How does she in fact know any of this? She is just making assumptions because there hasn't been many studies done on any of the things she mentions. I don't teach religion at all (except from a historical/cultural perspective). We actually study history, yet when I went to public school in the US I had 1 year of US history in the 13 years of school (and no world history). At 8, I would say my son knows more history than the average adult in this country. Granted, the fact this is true for my family means nothing, but again, where is her proof that homeschoolers do or do not do anything?

 

Ha. In our school district, we spend about two years or so on our relatively irrelevant state, some on the history of the U.S., and none at all on world history until high school.

 

My real history education has come from homeschooling our child.

[Charles Wallace]

Public school teaches children to be good citizens of the gulag, which is where progressivism is leading us.

 

Come on.

With all due respect, this kind of hyperbole weakens the validity of any argument you might be making. Speaking as a public school teacher, I may have an insight or so into what students are taught -- or perhaps you consider my lessons on how to write a decent topic sentence to be a form of well-concealed agitprop?

 

If you have a serious objection, it would be more helpful to state it factually and objectively, and I will be delighted to answer in the same tone and vein.

[Charles Wallace]

Excuse me, but please do not deign to tell me how I may characterize what I think of the American education system. The word "gulag", like many words in the English language has multiple meanings. Before assuming an incorrect meaning, why not take the 1-2 seconds to google it? Here is the meaning that fits my description of what I see as the future of the American educational system:

 

gu·lag also Gu·lag (gläg)

n.

A place or situation of great suffering and hardship, likened to the atmosphere in a prison system or a forced labor camp.

 

I believe that I am free to comment on the OP's thread as I see fit, which would include any words I deem appropriate in completing my thoughts.

 

And since I am so exceedingly weary of some on these boards constantly attacking those who attempt to post anything thoughtful in a thread, rather than posting multiple replies, I will just take this opportunity to simply post here regarding numerous descriptions of the theory of Educational Progressivism which has been around for quite a long time (and which have never, to my knowledge, been associated with any particular political party):

 

http://www.wilderdom.com/experiential/JohnDeweyPhilosophyEducation.html

 

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/ed416/PP3.html

 

http://www.answers.com/topic/educational-progressivism

 

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Educational+progressivism

(note: this is a FREE dictionary; anyone may use it; it took me two seconds to find it)

 

I believe that both E. D. Hirsch and John Gatto have written about this educational philosophy and its effects on our system of learning in this country. I do not believe that someone such as Glenn Beck has taken up the topic of educational progressivism (as yet)......

 

Here's a quotation from your U of Oregon source:

 

Progressivism

Progressivists believe that education should focus on the whole child, rather than on the content or the teacher. This educational philosophy stresses that students should test ideas by active experimentation. Learning is rooted in the questions of learners that arise through experiencing the world. It is active, not passive. The learner is a problem solver and thinker who makes meaning through his or her individual experience in the physical and cultural context. Effective teachers provide experiences so that students can learn by doing. Curriculum content is derived from student interests and questions. The scientific method is used by progressivist educators so that students can study matter and events systematically and first hand. The emphasis is on process-how one comes to know. The Progressive education philosophy was established in America from the mid 1920s through the mid 1950s. John Dewey was its foremost proponent. One of his tenets was that the school should improve the way of life of our citizens through experiencing freedom and democracy in schools. Shared decision making, planning of teachers with students, student-selected topics are all aspects. Books are tools, rather than authority.

 

 

Here's a quotation from your Free Dictionary source:

 

Progressive education was a pluralistic phenomenon, embracing industrial training, agricultural education, and social education as well as the new techniques of instruction advanced by educational theorists. Postulates of the movement were that children learn best in those experiences in which they have a vital interest and that modes of behavior are most easily learned by actual performance. The progressives insisted, therefore, that education must be a continuous reconstruction of living experience based on activity directed by the child. The recognition of individual differences was also considered crucial. Progressive education opposed formalized authoritarian procedure and fostered reorganization of classroom practice and curriculum as well as new attitudes toward individual students.

 

Here's a quotation from your Answers.com source:

 

n.

A set of reformist educational philosophies and methods that emphasize individual instruction, informality in the classroom, and the use of group discussions and laboratories as instructional techniques.

 

Yep. Forced labor camp. Why didn't I see it?

[Splungeman]

Oh, and speaking as a public school teacher, I'd like to assure you that we don't group the students in the auditorium and go all Clockwork Orange on the kids. Sorry!:D In short, the reality is that although some folks would've liked to have turned public schools into these agents of mass homogenization, it didn't happen because the Supreme Court shot it down. The other reality is that some folks (and it sounds like your sis might be leaning in this direction more than not) would like to reverse that basic decision, but I still don't think it's going to happen because -- surprise -- the Fourteenth Amendment is still pretty much alive and well, last time I looked.

 

I didn't meant to come across as anti-public school as I seem to have. :001_smile: I think what bothered me the most was this idea that there is a specific model of "citizen". In a free country, I think people should decide for themselves what citizenship means exactly. For some it might mean participating in the political process, for other it might mean picking up trash off the side of the road, for others it might mean being as selfish as possible. Point is...there is no citizenship training. Not really. We're free...so we can be whatever kind of citizen we want.

 

Kudos, Charles, for being a public school teacher AND Homeschooling your children on top of that. I've got nothing but respect for you! :)

[Carol in Cal.]

I didn't meant to come across as anti-public school as I seem to have. :001_smile: I think what bothered me the most was this idea that there is a specific model of "citizen". In a free country, I think people should decide for themselves what citizenship means exactly. For some it might mean participating in the political process, for other it might mean picking up trash off the side of the road, for others it might mean being as selfish as possible. Point is...there is no citizenship training. Not really. We're free...so we can be whatever kind of citizen we want.

 

 

...One could argue that in fact a free country would not remain so if citizens do not take on specific civic duties--responsibilities as well as rights. Do we want freedom that is liberty or freedom that is license? What are the moral and functional obligations of citizens in a republic that is more or less a democracy?

 

Yes, we can be whatever kind of citizen we want, but if we don't choose to be responsible citizens we will lose our freedom eventually. We have the right to do that. We have available to us 'the choice, freely made, that cost us our freedom,' but I would say that we should not make that choice. I would say that we should ensure that our children also understand the importance of civic responsibilities as well as civil rights, whether they are homeschooled or not.

 

But the original argument, I think, was that only public schools really convey these responsibilities, and that is ridiculous.

[WishboneDawn]

 

And since I am so exceedingly weary of some on these boards constantly attacking those who attempt to post anything thoughtful in a thread...

 

Can I suggest that the reason your gulag post hit a nerve was because it didn't seem really thoughtful? It seeemd like a quick bit of hyperbole, a thoughtless cliche, that you didn't explain or support.

 

I think that if your comment had been part of a greater and more detailed post it wouldn't have been an issue. Hyperbole on it's own though often looks like a shortcut used to avoid having to make a case. I think that's why it's a great favorite of political wonks in the media. :D

[lionfamily1999]

Ha. In our school district, we spend about two years or so on our relatively irrelevant state, some on the history of the U.S., and none at all on world history until high school.

 

My real history education has come from homeschooling our child.

:iagree: The closest to world history we had in school was world geography and art. I learned more from my art teacher than any other teacher I had and I've learned WAY more hsing, than I ever did in school.

Come on.

With all due respect, this kind of hyperbole weakens the validity of any argument you might be making. Speaking as a public school teacher, I may have an insight or so into what students are taught -- or perhaps you consider my lessons on how to write a decent topic sentence to be a form of well-concealed agitprop?

 

If you have a serious objection, it would be more helpful to state it factually and objectively, and I will be delighted to answer in the same tone and vein.

We all know that good grammar is one step away from chucking the Bill of Rights ;)

 

Really, my teachers with few exceptions had very little effect on me. My favorite teachers, the ones that really had some bearing on who I am today, were the ones I was allowed to argue with. I read, all the time, about how our ps turn out sheep, but I have yet to see it. The only herd mentality (outside of the cafeteria) I saw there was completely from the kids. I've known teachers that just wanted canned answers, but they didn't even try to get you to think like them, they just wanted you to answer like them. It seems like the idea that our schools are turning out legions walking in lock step is overblown.

[kalanamak]

 

Yep. Forced labor camp. Why didn't I see it?

 

Actually, it sounds like Shangri-La, but far too expensive to provide generally, and therefore impractical. 19th century dreamers, ha!

 

I might convert, or at least join, never really having had an educational philosophy before. Do you think anyone would understand a bumpersticker:

 

I appreciate the ideal of Educational Progressivism

[Hedgehogs4]

There are some things that every citizen should know. Like the Pledge of Allegiance, the symbols of democracy, the symbols of our country, History of the founding of the country. Maybe she means those sort of things. How to serve in the community, chances at volunteerism. It sounds like she is just ignorant of homeschooling and doesn't know that we use real curriculum. Maybe she thinks we just teach adding and subtracting and the Bible all day. Ask her what she thinks Citizenship means and what is it she thinks is necessary information.

 

why should everyone know the pledge of allegiance? why does one have to daily and publicly (as in pub. school) have to declare their allegiance to a piece of cloth, and their government? We repeat it robotically as if it were a religion. we can't have the children pray, but we can make sure they say their daily liturgy to the state.

 

it may seem crazy, but i used to think about this as a child growing up. I actually used to wonder why we had to do that, and thought about the words, and thought about what it meant. It just so happened that I was deeply patriotic and loved my country, but I was also a Christian and wondered if the practice of pledging to the flag every day amounted to idolatry.

 

jmo. I don't insist that my children pledge allegiance to the the flag, but to God alone.

[Hedgehogs4]

Well the WH argues that fat children threaten the safety of the citizenry in the sense that they likely become fat adults, who are too fat to serve. "The White House and its allies are also making the case that the obesity epidemic is affects national security; obesity is now one of the most common disqualifiers for military service." There are other reasons such as healthcare cost, so therefore, Michelle Obama has spearheaded and inserted the Let's Move campaign, to eliminate childhood obesity over a generation (what is that, 17 years, 40 years?) in schools as well as ped offices, sidewalks. I think every child in school, not just the US citizen minors, will be re-educated as to their duty in achieving non-obesity.

 

When I consider how responsible the government is for allowing the food monopolies in the country, thereby denying access to affordable raw, fresh, local food and healthy options, Michele Obama's "campaign" is just laughable.

 

Until they can educate the whole population on the value of a wholistic lifestyle, where people cook and eat at home with their families, work with their bodies, and deregulate the food industry and eliminate the giant monopolies, it's useless. it's all tyranny.

[Hedgehogs4]

Yes, the stereotype is the middle class, white denim jumper wearing, Ford Econoline driving, uber religious family. But they are rarely what I see, even among many of the more conservative Xtian homschooling families near me.

 

Educational freedom is a true progressive approach. She needs to get out more.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with white denim jumpers, Ford econolines, or uber religious families! Why is this stereotype so maligned and treated as undesirable and "damaging" to society!? I've known people like this and they are hard-working, honest people who keep to themselves and support the economy and VOTE their consciences, just as much as the next guy! We should be defending people who choose this as their style as much as we should defend the hippie unschooler who has dreds for hair and lets kids run around shoeless all day. The very second we make a generalization about hsers, we crack the foundations of our own house. If it all can't exist together harmoniously, then none of it will be able to survive.

 

I think that the bottom line of this whole discussion is not about teaching children to be "good citizens" but teaching them what it means to be truly free. that is what it means to be a good citizen. Gulags, schmulags. Anything that challenges my right to be free works counter to my citizenship.

 

:angry:

[smrtmama]

I do believe my public school education gave me a strong foundation as a citizen. I just happen to think I can do as good or better of a job myself.

[Happy2BaMom]

So, public school is the best way to turn out citizens? Well, let's examine that claim by looking at the statistics.

 

As of May, 2009, the national drop-out rate stands at 16%, approx. 6.2 million people.(http://www.clms.neu.edu/publication/documents/CLMS_2009_Dropout_Report.pdf)

 

Roughly 28% of all students who show up to college need remedial math, reading and writing classes. (http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/peqis/publications/2004010/ scroll down the page to "Participation in Remedial Courses")

 

The two together add up to about 44% of the students that enter the high school system that are either without a diploma or who struggle enough with reading, writing &/or math sufficiently enough to warrant help to even be able to BEGIN college.

 

How can you claim a system with a 44% failure rate as being the best way to create citizens?

[Jenny in Atl]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with white denim jumpers, Ford econolines, or uber religious families! Why is this stereotype so maligned and treated as undesirable and "damaging" to society!?

 

Never said there was anything wrong with families like these or that they in some way damage our society, but they have become the stereotype for all homeschooling families. When we see people/types of schooling/etc with only one label, one brand, we miss the big picture. I agree the government has done plenty to ruin farming in this country (both parties) as well as education. Shoot, public ed was never set up to grow future scientists, mathematicians or historians; it was factory workers they were after. I'm not even sure what the heck a "good" citizen really is. I like to think most people are striving to be good human beings, or at least I hope so. I guess I fail the big C test.

[PineFarmMom]

And since I am so exceedingly weary of some on these boards constantly attacking those who attempt to post anything thoughtful in a thread, rather than posting multiple replies, I will just take this opportunity to simply post here regarding numerous descriptions of the theory of Educational Progressivism which has been around for quite a long time (and which have never, to my knowledge, been associated with any particular political party):

.

 

 

I'm sorry you were attacked for your viewpoint. It's a typical silencing method around here, and it is a shame....gang up on someone trying to make a point about the negative direction of our nation, then make fun of their view in some way. :confused:

Edited February 17, 2010 by Texas T

[mcconnellboys]

Can I suggest that the reason your gulag post hit a nerve was because it didn't seem really thoughtful? It seeemd like a quick bit of hyperbole, a thoughtless cliche, that you didn't explain or support.

 

I think that if your comment had been part of a greater and more detailed post it wouldn't have been an issue. Hyperbole on it's own though often looks like a shortcut used to avoid having to make a case. I think that's why it's a great favorite of political wonks in the media. :D

 

And therein lies a large part of the problem with this board for the past couple of years. A perverse set of people has descended to troll for words and phrases, often out of context, in the hopes of constantly agitating dissension, rather than fostering discourse.

 

I have arrived at the point where I post seldom, and even less on the more highly contentious general board than others, perhaps. Since my posts most often end up at the end of the thread, apparently unread and uncared about, I have stopped wasting my time attempting to pour myself into lengthy posts unless someone specifically responds to me and asks for more.

 

Obviously I would not waste my time to respond to a thread at all if I did not wish to make some comment about it. But instead of a simple post, either private or public, stating that my comment is not understandable, or is somehow offensive in its language, I am immediately attacked - and once one person attacks, the rest of whatever the pack de jour comprises moves in to pile on, as well, to wit:

 

Wow, way to keep things non-partisan.

 

HUH???? What does speaking of our educational system have to do with partisanship? We could obviously go off on that sort of tangent, but she has obviously misunderstood the word "progressivism" and has made an incorrect comment.

 

Before I can even attempt to clear up any misunderstanding, I get this, which makes no sense to me whatsoever.....

 

Yes, but I really have never met any conservatives or liberals or in-betweens who want or secretly desire to have gulags in America:001_huh:

 

And even after I attempt to clear up, Mrs. Mungo is so intent on continuing in a political vein that she refuses to give up:

 

What policies do you consider progressive? Progressive policies are usually considered to be in opposition to conservative policies.

 

Of course you haven't met anyone who says that, they *secretly* desire them! That is what social justice is all about-gulags. Teddy Roosevelt? FDR? LBJ? They were all about the gulags.

 

So, I post numerous quickly found definitions/descriptions of what "educational progressivism" actually IS, vs. the social or political progressivism that she has obviously mistakenly taken off on. Now, again, we could certainly attempt to link the two, but I have no interest in doing that and it has no bearing on this thread. By this time, these posts have already thoroughly disrupted the original intent of the thread, simply because they do not understand the words I used in a simple sentence and can not or will not either look them up or ask what the heck I might be talking about! Simply amazing, but there's more.....

 

Gross hyperbole. People died in the gulags by the hundreds of thousands in reprehensible ways. Readers around the world are just now able to read the entirety of Alexander Solzhenitsyn's book The First Circle. I strongly suggest those interested in freedom to read it. I must be dense as I cannot understand what First Amendment issues the" progressives "are tromping on in such a way that progressives are compared to horrible despots who beat, starved , tortured and imprisoned innocent people for political expediency in a totalitarian regime. It is insulting to those who survived atrocities to be used as a verbal jab in an otherwise civil discussion.

 

Now the language police enter to instruct me on what sorts of descriptive words I may use in my speech. Excuse me? The word "gulag" is now strictly off limits for use by any except those discussing Russian concentration camps? That's completely bizarre and uncalled for, but STILL not the end....

 

:lol:

 

What does that even mean??

 

Now, I would have liked to have seen a question such as this in the very beginning, but somehow, the laughing smiley face rolling on the floor at this point just seemed to be derisive, rather than truly inquiring, so I ignored it. And then there were the continuing attempts to politicize this with bizarre accusations that have no bearing whatsoever on what I said:

 

Come on, elizabeth, if Glenn Beck said it, it must be truuuue!

 

So, instead of replying to that, I attempted to explain why I chose to use the word "gulag", although it was apparently to no avail.....

 

gu·lag [ g lg ] (plural gu·lags)

 

 

noun

 

Definition:

 

1. political prison in former USSR: a prison or labor camp in the former Soviet Union, to which opponents of the government were sent

 

 

2. prison camp network in former USSR: the network of political prisons and labor camps in the former Soviet Union

 

 

3. former Soviet prisons department: the department of the former Soviet security service that was responsible for running the network of political prisons

 

 

4. prison for dissenters: any place that dissenters are sent to, or the isolating or imprisoning of dissenters

 

 

[Mid-20th century. < Russian, acronym < Glavnoe upravlenie ispravitelno-trudovykh lagerei "Chief Administration for Corrective Labor Camps"]

Naturally one can use metaphors or for that matter create definitions as desired. It does not however make it true.

 

.....because despite the fact that my search engine pulls up about 5 or 6 different dictionaries that ALL include a version of the one dictionary term I posted (twice) to Elizabeth, she can only manage to find one that does not include that, and apparently wishes to continue to insist that I am using the word incorrectly and am not allowed to do so...... to which is added:

 

Elizabeth, quit using the dictionaries with the big words in the definitions. You're just confuzzling people.:tongue_smilie:

 

....the lovely, well-thought slight by Audrey that I am apparently too ignorant to be able to read the words in a dictionary and compose a sentence......

 

to be continued.....

[mcconnellboys]

And then you, my dear lady, post more about "hyperbole" and site various phrases from the descriptions of what educational progressivism is to try to refute that this could lead to a "gulag" like situation within our schools. As I thought I said clearly in my post, I included those links to try to help to finally explain to Mrs. Mungo what educational progressivism was and was not. I did not post them in an attempt to try to link educational progressivism to the idea of a gulag. I would think that a simple reading of nearly anything by Gatto would do that, LOL....

 

One would think that I'd posted such a sentence on an NEA website, rather than on a homeschooling board, LOL. My dear Charles Wallace, I am truly sorry if I offended you, as a teacher, by my remark. My mother is a retired teacher and my 102 (almost) year old grandmother was an itinerant teacher alongside her father in a day and time before teaching certificates, etc. were required. Although I did not "train" specifically as a teacher, I have taught in every job I've ever held, for most of my life, and I continue to teach classes to homeschoolers, scouts, etc. now.

 

As for touching a nerve with most others on this board, no, that should not have been the case. I attacked no person and no group save our institutionalized, bloated bureaucracy of an educational system. I have no quibble with individual schools or teachers within that system, necessarily, as there are real gems evident throughout our country. But the SYSTEM, itself, is certainly accurately characterized as a "gulag" from my personal observations over the years.

 

I've already taken up way, way too much bandwidth with all this (as have all of you with your wasted remarks), so I won't tell you the dozens of stories of hateful schools and their policies that I have experienced, both first-hand and through friends and family, in Tennessee, Kentucky, Louisiana, and Iowa, for the most part. Those are certainly not representative of the majority of the country. So perhaps everyone else has glowing reports of our school systems....

 

What I believe Elizabeth and some others of you have failed to grasp is that one person's "gross hyperbole" may well be another person's apt metaphor. And my experiences would include things such as:

 

my young special needs friend who was handcuffed and put into a police cruiser multiple times while he was ages 9-11 to "teach him who was boss";

 

the special needs twins, age 6, who were given demerits because they could not open their milk cartons, so they couldn't put their garbage in the cartons, at the end of lunch (which they didn't really get to eat), etc. and then put into the "safe room", sometimes for the entirety of the school day, once they received so many demerits;

 

the "safe room" itself, which I was proudly shown at several schools I visited; a janitor's closet outfitted with a bed, where students often spend their days; I don't know if they put more than one in there at a time;

 

the locked-down buildings of every school I've tried to enter in the past 10 years;

 

the intermittent drug searches with policemen and their dogs that sweep through these buildings;

 

Should I go on? But I'm running out of time and I have an appointment this evening, so I should stop..... MY reality is that I've seen enough of water soaked, ruined supplies and equipment, structures that are falling down, waste-time Department of Education employees, and on and ON to state, emphatically, that I DO happen to believe that our American public education system can be likened to a "gulag", which despite any desire to the contrary of some on these boards, is a perfectly good word to describe: "A place or situation of great suffering and hardship, likened to the atmosphere in a prison system or a forced labor camp." And numerous, readily available, online dictionaries support my usage of said word.

 

So, my apologies to the OP of this thread and to those who pay for these forums for the wastage of space that has occurred here. In an effort to attempt, once again, to answer the OP's question in a way that is clearly understandable to the average reader, I will start again:

 

One of my cousins is an education major working on her master's degree. One of her big issues is arguing against unregulated homeschooling. I got into a discussion with her about this on a Facebook chat. She had a lot of the usual issues: Concerns that these children are not being exposed to other cultures, concerns that they are receiving more religious education than true education, blah, blah, blah. But I must say, the thing I had the biggest problem with was her assertion that public school teaches children how to be citizens, and that a homeschool environment doesn't necessarily teach children how to be citizens.

 

This blows my mind just a bit. What does that mean, exactly? I never thought any training was required on "how to be a citizen". I mean, we're born in this country we are citizens of this country aren't we? No matter how narrow-minded or uneducated a person may be, if they were born in this country they are citizens, right? You don't need training to exist.

 

What aspect of citizenship does public school teach, I wonder? How to stand in line and obey government certified authority figures?

 

I think a child learns more about the real world and its rules by being out in the real world. I think the rules of the real world are far more valuable than those learned within the walls of a public school.

 

I don't know what it is that bothers me so much about the idea of public school teaching children to be "citizens". Does that bother anyone else?

 

I believe that the poster "Sonlight" (not Sunlight, who posted after her), mentioned precisely the sort of ideals that educational progressivism promoted regarding being good citizens of their utopian state. Thankfully, she was not attacked, too.

 

As I mentioned in my other post, E.D. Hirsch wrote a seminal book, entitled The Schools We Need and Why We Don't Have Them, in about 1996. It has been largely ignored, as most who hailed it expected, until some prominent business leaders (such as Bill Gates, etc.) began to decry the condition of young adults entering the marketplace a few years ago.

 

John Gatto, who was a teacher of the year in New York (several years, wasn't he?), has certainly railed against our educational system for years.

 

Michael Gurian has taken a much more gentle approach, because he tries to work within the existing system, but he has highlighted the disservice our educational system is doing to our children (particularly our boys) for years.

 

Here are some links:

 

http://www.edexcellence.net/detail/news.cfm?news_id=231

 

This is a Fordham Institute review of Hirsch's work. In it, the author says, in part:

 

"As a teacher educator myself, I find that Hirsch's message rings loud and clear. But it can only ring for those teacher educators who are willing to listen. It is sad, but true that Hirsch will not be heard within the educational establishment.

 

...

 

All the educational establishment's efforts will go for naught and the reason is simple: the orthodoxy rests on false and dubious supports.

 

Hirsch is absolutely correct about the sins of the educational establishment, but school- based colleagues are not the enemy. Hirsch explains that it is ideas that are partially formed and poorly executed that are problematic. Hirsch also tells us that ideas that are inconsistent with democratic life and living are dangerous. On both counts the educational establishment has failed our children and the nation. "

 

And here's a link (from a politically progressive group, I might add) on a sort of school report card that's being done for all fifty states:

 

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/1/leaders_laggards/report.html

 

It's over a hundred pages long, by the way. Even political progressives don't think our educational system is on track......

 

So, what did I say? "Public school teaches children to be good citizens of the gulag, which is where progressivism is leading us. "

 

Hopefully, we all now know that the term "gulag" may mean: "A place or situation of great suffering and hardship, likened to the atmosphere in a prison system or a forced labor camp."

 

Public school teaches children to be "good citizens" of a place of great suffering and hardship, which is where [educational] progressivism is leading us.

 

I believe that numerous articles have been posted to these boards in the past six months or so about the dearth of students entering college who are considered capable of completing the work (why? we are not as a species devolving - why aren't they prepared?). The works of the three authors I've mentioned all detail what a disservice our current educational system is doing our children. And now there has begun to (finally) be some sort of call for a change in the vast, bloated bureaucracy that is our educational system.

 

Is it necessary for our children to enter a public school in order to be "good citizens", as the OP asked? Are public schools the only place where our children may learn to be "good citizens"? They will learn to be some sort of "citizen" in public schools - I guess good or bad depends upon your perspective.....

 

(And now I've REALLY got to go as I'm late.....)

[elizabeth]

http://www.askoxford.com/results/?view=dict&freesearch=gulag&branch=13842570&textsearchtype=exact

http://www.cambridge.org/elt/dictionaries/cald.htm

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gulag

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gulag I do not cherry pick definitions to suit my arguments. Rather it seems the one place a generic defintion was found is the culprit here.

 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gulag

[LisaNY]

Come on.

With all due respect, this kind of hyperbole weakens the validity of any argument you might be making. Speaking as a public school teacher, I may have an insight or so into what students are taught -- or perhaps you consider my lessons on how to write a decent topic sentence to be a form of well-concealed agitprop?

 

If you have a serious objection, it would be more helpful to state it factually and objectively, and I will be delighted to answer in the same tone and vein.

 

In what state do you currently teach? What grade level?

 

Here in the great state of NY, our teachers are relegated to teaching to the test. Yes, a priceless panel of moronic bureaucrats utterly void of the least bit of knowledge on education has decided to mandate the yearly state Regents exams for all of its students.

 

My older dd, who went through three years in ps (10th - 12th) got tired of what she called all of the "busy work" she was given to do at home. She said, "Mom, it has no value, it's just mindless busywork! Why don't they give us something to read, and ask us to write about it and then discuss it? This is such a waste of my time!" My younger dd, in 9th gr., tells me the same thing. So much busywork.

 

Class discussion? HA! The classes are so full, the teachers are lucky to get the time to present the lesson, much less discuss it. My dd tries to ask questions in her science class (along w/other students) and the teacher will say, "Just skip it and move on." The hilarious part is apparently, my dd seems to know more than the other students at this point, so they go to her. :001_huh:

 

There are some wonderful teachers out there. My dd's have had a few, but most of them have been pretty bad, I'm sad to say. I think they are just tired of fighting the system that is doing its best (quite successfully) to suck all of the joy out of teaching and learning.

 

I've been on both sides of the fence now, and I still firmly believe with all my heart that the tutorial method is the best educational method. I wonder at those who would disagree with that.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Public school teaches children to be good citizens of the gulag, which is where progressivism is leading us.

 

I really just responded to your sentence which put gulag and progressivism together:001_huh: As far as I knew, you were talking about progressive in regards to politics since there have been many in the media and politics who have been painting progressives as wanting to have a fascist or communist state and gulags this past year. Of course, I find it ridiculous that the average conservative, liberal, or in-between would want such a thing in America since I have had the good fortune to have friends from conservatives to liberals:)

 

 

Now as far as schools, I agree that many, not all, can seem like prisons at times. I also know that there many good, dedicated teachers out there:) I also understand that educational progressivism has been around for a 100 hundred or longer and spans across the political spectrum;) Your post really did not make that clear though. I also happen to frequent and enjoy many educational reform sites:)

 

I do take offense that you would characterize others and myself as perverse since truly I consider myself thoughtful and I was trying to be respectful in expressing my concern at the word "gulag." Is it not okay to express an alternative opinion?

Edited February 18, 2010 by priscilla
clarify/spelling

[lionfamily1999]

In what state do you currently teach? What grade level?

 

Here in the great state of NY, our teachers are relegated to teaching to the test. Yes, a priceless panel of moronic bureaucrats utterly void of the least bit of knowledge on education has decided to mandate the yearly state Regents exams for all of its students.

 

My older dd, who went through three years in ps (10th - 12th) got tired of what she called all of the "busy work" she was given to do at home. She said, "Mom, it has no value, it's just mindless busywork! Why don't they give us something to read, and ask us to write about it and then discuss it? This is such a waste of my time!" My younger dd, in 9th gr., tells me the same thing. So much busywork.

 

Class discussion? HA! The classes are so full, the teachers are lucky to get the time to present the lesson, much less discuss it. My dd tries to ask questions in her science class (along w/other students) and the teacher will say, "Just skip it and move on." The hilarious part is apparently, my dd seems to know more than the other students at this point, so they go to her. :001_huh:

 

There are some wonderful teachers out there. My dd's have had a few, but most of them have been pretty bad, I'm sad to say. I think they are just tired of fighting the system that is doing its best (quite successfully) to suck all of the joy out of teaching and learning.

 

I've been on both sides of the fence now, and I still firmly believe with all my heart that the tutorial method is the best educational method. I wonder at those who would disagree with that.

I went ahead and added the quote that CharlesWallace responded to below. Reading what you've had to write, I still have to agree that it's positively silly to think that ps are teaching kids to "be good citizens of the gulag &tc," and your post seems to emphasis this. They're teaching to the test, which seems to mean hardly teaching anything at all.

Public school teaches children to be good citizens of the gulag, which is where progressivism is leading us.

[Charles Wallace]

why should everyone know the pledge of allegiance? why does one have to daily and publicly (as in pub. school) have to declare their allegiance to a piece of cloth, and their government? We repeat it robotically as if it were a religion. we can't have the children pray, but we can make sure they say their daily liturgy to the state.

 

it may seem crazy, but i used to think about this as a child growing up. I actually used to wonder why we had to do that, and thought about the words, and thought about what it meant. It just so happened that I was deeply patriotic and loved my country, but I was also a Christian and wondered if the practice of pledging to the flag every day amounted to idolatry.

 

jmo. I don't insist that my children pledge allegiance to the the flag, but to God alone.

 

Actually, it is your child's and your right to refrain from saying the Pledge. The ACLU has gone to bat over this issue on numerous occasions, and the issue has gone to the Supreme Court, which ruled in favor of the right not to say the pledge, arguing (if memory serves) that "compulsory democracy" was a contradiction in terms.

 

For cultural literacy's sake, we have our child understand and be able to recite the Pledge, but not pledge the Pledge, if you know what I mean. Like you, I think it is coercive to have children make a pledge when they're not truly aware of what it means, but quite honestly, I think it's less an issue of being an eeevill agent of teh debbil gubmint than a combination of tradition and lack of questioning -- a "We've always done it this way" mentality.

 

I should also say that many teachers I know have successfully stood up for their students' right to listen in respectful silence (but not be compelled to say) the Pledge.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Charles Wallace

[Charles Wallace]

In what state do you currently teach? What grade level?

 

Here in the great state of NY, our teachers are relegated to teaching to the test. Yes, a priceless panel of moronic bureaucrats utterly void of the least bit of knowledge on education has decided to mandate the yearly state Regents exams for all of its students.

 

I hope you don't mind if I respectfully decline to answer the first question for the sake of privacy, but as for the second, I teach high school. I've done so for over a decade, and I've taught every level from freshmen through AP Language and Composition.

 

My older dd, who went through three years in ps (10th - 12th) got tired of what she called all of the "busy work" she was given to do at home. She said, "Mom, it has no value, it's just mindless busywork! Why don't they give us something to read, and ask us to write about it and then discuss it? This is such a waste of my time!" My younger dd, in 9th gr., tells me the same thing. So much busywork.

 

 

Sadly, I believe she is right. As a (former) student and (current) teacher, I have no patience with busywork or with what I think of as "glitter-n-glue" projects suited more toward elementary school, but that's the subject I'll save for a whole 'nother rant.:D

 

 

I've been on both sides of the fence now, and I still firmly believe with all my heart that the tutorial method is the best educational method. I wonder at those who would disagree with that.

It's the one constant that, for me, explains the success of homeschooling even when you have parents with limited education themselves -- it's one-on-one tutoring with minimal wasted time, no need for bathroom passes, and mastery learning. What's not to love?

[Hedgehogs4]

For cultural literacy's sake, we have our child understand and be able to recite the Pledge, but not pledge the Pledge, if you know what I mean. Like you, I think it is coercive to have children make a pledge when they're not truly aware of what it means, but quite honestly, I think it's less an issue of being an eeevill agent of teh debbil gubmint

 

 

 

:lol: that tickled me...

 

my son also knows and can recite the pledge, but i don't require him to say it in public settings.

[Mrs Mungo]

I really just responded to your sentence which put gulag and progressivism together:001_huh: As far as I knew, you were talking about progressive in regards to politics since there have been many in the media and politics who have been painting progressives as wanting to have a fascist or communist state and gulags this past year.

 

Exactly. Claiming you were making an attempt at thoughtful debate fails when you weren't attempting thoughtful debate, since you made a one line statement. If you had expounded and explained rather than posting a one-liner intended to inflame, a misunderstanding would have been avoided.

 

Is the system broken? Yes, I believe it is. Does that make educational progressiveness inherently wrong? I don't think it does, I think public schooling of some sort is completely necessary for some. Does the system being broken mean that schools equal gulags? No, it doesn't. That is a word with a lot of emotional and historical baggage. If you're going to use that sort of hyperbole, people will call you on it, especially when it's exactly the sort of hyperbole regularly used by certain media circus stars.

[Karenciavo]

One would think that I'd posted such a sentence on an NEA website, rather than on a homeschooling board, LOL. My dear Charles Wallace, I am truly sorry if I offended you, as a teacher, by my remark. My mother is a retired teacher and my 102 (almost) year old grandmother was an itinerant teacher alongside her father in a day and time before teaching certificates, etc. were required. Although I did not "train" specifically as a teacher, I have taught in every job I've ever held, for most of my life, and I continue to teach classes to homeschoolers, scouts, etc. now.

 

My ds16's 20th century history teacher (co-op) whose own mother was in a gulag in Estonia and who left the public schools to homeschool her children agrees with you. In fact I'm :lol: because she actually said what you said to a group of moms one day.

[Splungeman]

I'm not even sure what the heck a "good" citizen really is. I like to think most people are striving to be good human beings, or at least I hope so. I guess I fail the big C test.

 

It seems to be the consensus that what is meant by "good citizen" is following the rules, working with others, community involvement, learning to treat with others, etc. I am not so sure that the public school setting is the BEST place to do this. Speaking for myself, my parents were the ones who instilled those particular skills in me. They had a greater influence. Churches, civic organizations, scouting, etc are also probably more effective. But then, there are quite a few people out there who don't have parents who are good examples, who aren't encouraged to go to a church or join an organization like the scouts. Therefore it is the school's job to attempt to train children in "good citizenship". I suppose it's better than nothing, in the end. But I don't think it is the BEST way.

 

No comment on the gulag...except to say that the word reminds me of the sound someone makes when they are chugging thick chocolate milk. :tongue_smilie:

[MBM]

Our public high school offers 28 history courses. To graduate a student must complete at least one U.S. -- which discusses citizenship -- and world history course, but the school strongly recommends students take at least three. I believe this is because U of Illinois requires three years of history. (I'm in Illinois.) Students also have to take the Illinois and Federal Constitution test.

 

The Jesuit school we like has similar requirements.

 

I also believe children learn this best from their parents, but some schools attempt to teach it as well. I don't think that's bad or something that can't be done in a homeschool.

[TXMomof4]

It seems to be the consensus that what is meant by "good citizen" is following the rules, working with others, community involvement, learning to treat with others, etc. I am not so sure that the public school setting is the BEST place to do this. Speaking for myself, my parents were the ones who instilled those particular skills in me. They had a greater influence. Churches, civic organizations, scouting, etc are also probably more effective. But then, there are quite a few people out there who don't have parents who are good examples, who aren't encouraged to go to a church or join an organization like the scouts. Therefore it is the school's job to attempt to train children in "good citizenship". I suppose it's better than nothing, in the end. But I don't think it is the BEST way.

 

No comment on the gulag...except to say that the word reminds me of the sound someone makes when they are chugging thick chocolate milk. :tongue_smilie:

 

Teaching good citizenship is one of the goals of public schools, right? I want my children to understand WHAT it means to be a good citizen and why it should be a goal. Is there a difference between being a good person and being a good citizen? Why would homeschoolers be unable to teach their children how to be good people - thoughtful of others, helpful, generous, etc. if they are able to live those lives themselves?

 

So, then the question expands to what are the responsiblities of a citizen of the US? To understand those responsiblities I would want to know the history of being a citizen of the US, how it is different than being a citizen in another country, why I should desire to be a good citizen - there's a whole boatload of information beyond 'working together and being nice'. I am certain that those issues of citizenship have never come up in any school I've been associated with.

[WishboneDawn]

And therein lies a large part of the problem with this board for the past couple of years. A perverse set of people has descended to troll for words and phrases, often out of context, in the hopes of constantly agitating dissension, rather than fostering discourse.

 

I have arrived at the point where I post seldom, and even less on the more highly contentious general board than others, perhaps. Since my posts most often end up at the end of the thread, apparently unread and uncared about, I have stopped wasting my time attempting to pour myself into lengthy posts unless someone specifically responds to me and asks for more.

 

Obviously I would not waste my time to respond to a thread at all if I did not wish to make some comment about it. But instead of a simple post, either private or public, stating that my comment is not understandable, or is somehow offensive in its language, I am immediately attacked - and once one person attacks, the rest of whatever the pack de jour comprises moves in to pile on, as well, to wit:

 

Honestly, I don't know what history you've had in posting here. I'm just taking issue with you saying the gulag comment was thoughtful. I didn't have a problem with your metaphor at all, just the claim that the post was an attempt at something thoughtful. I do think it could have led somewhere interesting though if you'd chosen to respond by posting a little more on your views.

[WishboneDawn]

...So, my apologies to the OP of this thread and to those who pay for these forums for the wastage of space that has occurred here. In an effort to attempt, once again, to answer the OP's question in a way that is clearly understandable to the average reader, I will start again...

 

I think you've done yourself an awful disservice with the tone you adopted in that post. Maybe it's time to step away, take a deep breath and break into the emergency chocolate stash. :)

[Splungeman]

I think perhaps that if public schools are going to teach citizenship, they ought to have several semesters of classes teaching us how to understand the US Tax Code. I'm not sure if anyone truly 100% understands that particular puzzle box! :lol:

[Jugglin'5]

Since when is there anything so criminal about using hyperbole, analogy, metaphor, or other rhetorical devices to make a point on a classical education board? A little less sensitivity, please.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Since when is there anything so criminal about using hyperbole' date=' analogy, metaphor, or other rhetorical devices to make a point on a classical education board? A little less sensitivity, please.[/quote']

 

As a rhetorical device, using a one-liner that uses purposefully emotionally loaded words, is not the best method. It did not communicate what the person wanted to communicate because there was not enough information given as to what the person meant. And it caused some people to react simply to the emotionally loaded word instead of the idea behind the one liner. When people expressed puzzlement at what was being communicated, they were instead attacked.

[Mrs Mungo]

Since when is there anything so criminal about using hyperbole' date=' analogy, metaphor, or other rhetorical devices to make a point on a classical education board? A little less sensitivity, please.[/quote']

 

There's nothing criminal about using inflammatory rhetoric but there's nothing criminal arguing against the use of inflammatory rhetoric, either. I think posting a one-liner using inflammatory rhetoric and then claiming it was an attempt at bringing thoughtful debate to the table is actually pretty silly.

[Jugglin'5]

Except that most people understood the meaning to begin with, because they weren't trying to set themselves up as the language arbiters or looking for a way to be offended. Making a comparison between a real gulag and a metaphorical one is a perfectly legitimate way to make a point. I suspect that those who would get up in arms about it would not be the least bit receptive to her point anyway.

[Splungeman]

I think it's safe to say that comparing public school to a gulag will probably not happen again in the near future.

 

However, I must say though, now that I know what a gulag is, that there have been times where I certainly FELT like I was in a gulag: Nursing school and Mrs. Heartley's 2nd grade class. :lol:

 

(runs away)

[PineFarmMom]

Except that most people understood the meaning to begin with' date=' because they weren't trying to set themselves up as the language arbiters or [b']looking for a way to be offended[/b]. Making a comparison between a real gulag and a metaphorical one is a perfectly legitimate way to make a point. I suspect that those who would get up in arms about it would not be the least bit receptive to her point anyway.

 

 

I think what you said in bold pretty well hit it. I often wonder if there are key words that people search so they can have a joint jump-in on a person for saying something they don't like.

 

I've seen this type of metaphor used before from the opposite end with no arguments. Goose and gander...again!!

[Jean in Newcastle]

Except that most people understood the meaning to begin with' date=' because they weren't trying to set themselves up as the language arbiters or looking for a way to be offended. Making a comparison between a real gulag and a metaphorical one is a perfectly legitimate way to make a point. I suspect that those who would get up in arms about it would not be the least bit receptive to her point anyway.[/quote']

 

I understood what she meant by a metaphorical gulag. But I did not understand why she automatically thought that all school children are being groomed to be in one. Is it a conspiracy? By whom? By the NEA? If so, perhaps a thoughtful response would give us more information so that we could decide for ourselves exactly how we should respond to such a threat. A one-liner does not communicate any of that. And a thoughtful response wouldn't use ridicule against anyone who might thoughtfully disagree.

 

The thoughtful discussion that proceeded all this gave a lot of different theories of what was being expressed by the word "citizens" and what the agenda of the public schools might be and should be. And of course they addressed the actual OP which dealt with whether citizenship was the exclusive domain of the public school. There were good arguments from a number of different perspectives. All agreed that whatever the definitions, it wasn't the exclusive domain of the public school.

 

I would be more interested in knowing what you and Texas T thought of the OPs question. I will look forward to reading your thoughtful response to that.

[PineFarmMom]

Well, since you asked. I guess it all would depend a lot on what this person considered good training on how to be a "citizen." If that has to do with training them to be voters, to know the constitution and the voting process, etc., I'd say most homeschoolers I know are doing a pretty good job of it. I feel we do. We vote and we take our dc when we go. We discuss politics and those who are running, etc. We've written letters to congressmen and to the president. We've jumped in and helped to support candidates we believe in.

 

Another view of what a "good citizen" is, in my mind, would be someone who desires to contribute to the area they live, the state they live, their country rather than be a drain on society. I've been at this homeschooling thing for a long time. The proof to that one is in our pudding as well when we have a local charity that calls my children and asks if they can round up some of their friends to come assist because my children and their homeschool friends have proven to be such a hard-working, dependable benefit to that particular charity. I've seen enough "good citizenship" among many homeschoolers (maybe we've been blessed with some just really incredible ones where we live) to think that the OP's friend is full of hooey. ;)

[hornblower]

I must be one of those below average readers because I've lost grip on this thread.

 

ALL I know now is that Jugglin'5's sig line mentions Blandings Castle, and that is a wonderful place to 'visit'. :thumbup:

[Hillary in KS]

I must be one of those below average readers because I've lost grip on this thread.

 

 

I enjoyed reading the original and subsequent posts. But then it seems people jumped in while searching for a political thread, assumed this *was* a political thread, and went to town.

 

This has happened before on interesting threads. I understand not wanting to slog through 10 pages of posts before replying, but sometimes I wish more people would actually take time to read the thread before descending upon it with snark.

[Audrey]

There's nothing criminal about using inflammatory rhetoric but there's nothing criminal arguing against the use of inflammatory rhetoric, either. I think posting a one-liner using inflammatory rhetoric and then claiming it was an attempt at bringing thoughtful debate to the table is actually pretty silly.

 

 

That's the crux of it, really. She threw out the one-liner, claimed it was a thoughtful post, then proceeded to spend thousands of words explaining her "thoughtfulness."

 

If she'd spent even a quarter of that bandwidth on the first post instead of jabbing with the one-liner, there would have been no query on her intent behind it.

 

What's ridiculous and not in any way helpful to her proposed argument, is the idea of coming in later, and saying "oh no... you misunderstood my one-liner and here's what I really meant yada yada..." That's just backtracking to CYA. It's not "thoughtful" when it's after the fact.

[rosesinsummer]

Have any of you seen this you tube video by a homeschooler?

 

Excellently done, in my view.

 

[mirth]

Public school teaches children to be "good citizens" of a place of great suffering and hardship, which is where [educational] progressivism is leading us.

 

There. The woeful hyperbole was eliminated and all 19 original words clarified on p.8.