does anyone choose Singapore over MM?

[MeganW]

I was dead-set on using Singapore (along with RS & Miquon), but I have seen so many posts lately from people who have jumped off the Singapore ship and over to Math Mammoth.

 

Is there anyone who has seen both and chosen Singapore? Or is it pretty unanimous that those who have seen both prefer MM?

 

Are they equally difficult? Strong in word problems? Etc.?

[chiguirre]

I use SM as dd's main program, but I do use MM and Miquon along with it. Dd prefers SM because she likes the cartoons. They make math fun for her. She also likes the layout of the pages because they give her lots of room to write her numbers. The layout of MM can be challenging for a new writer because there isn't as much space to write your answer. There are also a LOT of problems on each page, probably too many for a typical 1st grader. I think this issue evens out in 2nd or 3rd grade.

 

I do use MM to reinforce SM when dd needs more practice or a different presentation. When we use MM, I cut the pages up at the exercise breaks to make minisheets. Those are less intimidating for dd.

[mystika1]

:lurk5:

[HappyGrace]

:lurk5:

[StephanieZ]

I haven't seen MM so I can't compare the two. But, for me, SM has been one of our best curriculum choices ever, and since it is definitely not broken, and has a long track record of success in our family (and plenty of others), I wouldn't even consider an alternative unless I had a child for whom SM didn't work (and that won't happen since our family is complete.)

[Staceyshoe]

I've been wondering about this also. When I look at the scope and sequence, Singapore seems way ahead of MM. According to the published scope, ds would need Singapore 1A or 1B but would be in 2nd grade MM. This alone makes me lean toward Singapore. I want an extremely challenging math curriculum, and the scope of MM just doesn't seem challenging to me. Maybe I'm off because I haven't actually seen either program, but that's what I've gathered from comparisons of their websites.

[HappyGrace]

I have spent most of this wk comparing levels 1 and 2 of each, including the Singapore HIGs. And all the samples of each, and most of the info on the MM site, and a couple questions to the author.

 

Singapore is hands-down more rigorous. You can compare on the MM site exactly how MM compares to the Cal State Standards (which Singapore meets) in every area for every grade (through 5). And the author of MM was not trying to meet those admittedly very rigorous standards. She says right on her site she was trying to hit a more narrow range. In her Grade 3, she offers supplementary ideas for word problems (including CWP). In general, the work in Singapore requires more of the student.

 

However, MM does seem to do a great job of teaching mental math on a more gentle level. My dd needs that; she has already been thriving with it these past couple wks.

 

I'd be interested to hear from people who have chosen as the OP said, and why!

[Homeschooling6]

Deleted-Ooops! Read your question wrong. Sorry.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Homeschooling6

[Strawberry Queen]

I think programs come along in the curriculum world that challenge the standard choices. Everyone likes to look and admire the new shiny curriculum. It's exciting to contemplate the new and different, at least for me.:D Then, after contemplating the curriculum we come here and share our excitement. Someone else gets excited and goes off and looks at it. Then they become excited thinking of the possibilities that this curriculum offers. They come back and share their reason for changing to a new curriculum. And the cycle continues.;)

 

I'm not saying that there are not good reasons to switch curriculums. I'm just commenting that it is usually advisable for people to switch curriculums only when there is a real problem they want to solve.

 

I have been tempted to switch many times.:drool: However, I make myself wait a month before buying anything. This has saved my butt many times, but it's not fool proof. :lol: (like my CW that's gathering dust-I was soo sure I needed it!)

 

MM is fairly new on the scene. I haven't looked at it in a few years because I don't have any real issues that I need to solve in math. I think SWB mentions that just because everyone else loves the new and shiny program doesn't mean you have to switch and that piece of advice has stayed with me.

 

SM is a great program that has worked for many families. It is rigorous and encourages mental math. It's word problems are second to none. It's just terrific from that stand point. My dd's and I have learned a lot and we'll continue to use it until it no longer serves us well. Until then I choose to put on my blinders and hum my own little ditty lest I be tempted off my chosen path. :tongue_smilie:

 

I think that you need to evaluate what you need in a program. Then, consider your options and see which one will best meet your needs. The most popular option may not be the program that meets your needs. ;)

 

HTH

[Whereneverever]

We're using both, but if I only was able to use one I'd use Singapore. Math Mammoth is great, but I like the track record on Singapore.

[Dinsfamily]

I almost posted a similar thread yesterday. :D The answers are putting my mind at ease. Thanks for asking the question.

 

SM is a great program that has worked for many families. It is rigorous and encourages mental math. It's word problems are second to none. It's just terrific from that stand point. My dd's and I have learned a lot and we'll continue to use it until it no longer serves us well. Until then I choose to put on my blinders and hum my own little ditty lest I be tempted off my chosen path. :tongue_smilie:

 

HTH

 

Thanks for this...I need to print it out and post it next to my computer. I love SM so far, but all the talk about MM lately has me wondering. If it's not broke...don't fix it!

[AudreyTN]

We use Singapore and add Math Mammoth as necessary for extra practice on certain topics.

[Corraleno]

I have spent most of this wk comparing levels 1 and 2 of each, including the Singapore HIGs. And all the samples of each, and most of the info on the MM site, and a couple questions to the author. Singapore is hands-down more rigorous.

 

I don't think you can look at just samples of levels 1 & 2 and then conclude that Singapore is "hands down more rigorous." I have all of the Singapore Primary Math (US edition) textbooks and workbooks from 1A-6B, as well as the HIGs for 4A-6B, the CWP for 3-6, and several IP books. I also have the complete MM Blue series for grades 1-3, and the complete Light Blue books from 4A-5B (grade 6 is not out yet). I have compared them quite extensively.

 

While it may be true that Singapore introduces some concepts more quickly in first grade, that is because MM includes more practice of math facts. I believe that was a conscious choice on Maria's part, to start more slowly and make sure kids are well grounded in the basics before moving on (a choice I agree with). If you compare the later levels, you will see that kids using MM have certainly "caught up" to Singapore, and in some cases she introduces concepts in MM before they are introduced in Singapore. I will give two examples:

 

EXAMPLE 1: Algebraic Equations

Singapore introduces algebraic equations in 6b, using 1 variable. MM introduces algebraic equations using pictures in 4A, including equations with two variables. Here is one of the problems in 4A (she uses shapes for the variables, I'll just use x & y):

 

3x + y = 9 + x

x + 8 = 2y

find x & y*

 

That seems pretty rigorous to me for the beginning of 4th grade!

 

EXAMPLE 2: Statistics and Graphing

In Singapore 5B there is a single lesson (3 pages) on Line Graphs. In Singapore 6B there is a single lesson on Pie Charts. That's it for graphing in Singapore 5th and 6th grade. I could not find any lessons on statistics.

MM 5A includes an entire chapter on Statistics and Graphing. There are 12 lessons in the chapter, including Introduction to Functions. The chapter also covers calculation of mean/mode/median, and there is a suggested statistics project at the end of the chapter.

 

I'm not arguing that MM is more rigorous than Singapore; their scope and sequence are slightly different, and each program may be a bit stronger in some areas and a bit weaker in others. But given the fact that I own compete sets of both Singapore (U.S.) and Math Mammoth, and have compared them extensively, I would argue that it is simply incorrect to say that one is "hands down more rigorous" than another ~ especially based on a few samples. Even looking at the tables of contents does not tell you anything about how the concept is taught, or how challenging the problems are.

 

Jackie

 

* the answer is x=2, y=5 for those of you who couldn't do it in your head :tongue_smilie:

[melmichigan]

We use SM and California Progress in Math as our main programs for my middle three DC this year. I have supplemented with MM at times for more review of facts. I just ordered some CLE to take a look at to use as a supplement. We usually have at least two programs running and then supplements. I doubt I'd ever abandon SM but I do add others in too.

[mystika1]

I don't think you can look at just samples of levels 1 & 2 and then conclude that Singapore is "hands down more rigorous." I have all of the Singapore Primary Math (US edition) textbooks and workbooks from 1A-6B, as well as the HIGs for 4A-6B, the CWP for 3-6, and several IP books. I also have the complete MM Blue series for grades 1-3, and the complete Light Blue books from 4A-5B (grade 6 is not out yet). I have compared them quite extensively.

 

While it may be true that Singapore introduces some concepts more quickly in first grade, that is because MM includes more practice of math facts. I believe that was a conscious choice on Maria's part, to start more slowly and make sure kids are well grounded in the basics before moving on (a choice I agree with). If you compare the later levels, you will see that kids using MM have certainly "caught up" to Singapore, and in some cases she introduces concepts in MM before they are introduced in Singapore. I will give two examples:

 

EXAMPLE 1: Algebraic Equations

Singapore introduces algebraic equations in 6b, using 1 variable. MM introduces algebraic equations using pictures in 4A, including equations with two variables. Here is one of the problems in 4A (she uses shapes for the variables, I'll just use x & y):

 

3x + y = 9 + x

x + 8 = 2y

find x & y*

 

That seems pretty rigorous to me for the beginning of 4th grade!

 

EXAMPLE 2: Statistics and Graphing

In Singapore 5B there is a single lesson (3 pages) on Line Graphs. In Singapore 6B there is a single lesson on Pie Charts. That's it for graphing in Singapore 5th and 6th grade. I could not find any lessons on statistics.

MM 5A includes an entire chapter on Statistics and Graphing. There are 12 lessons in the chapter, including Introduction to Functions. The chapter also covers calculation of mean/mode/median, and there is a suggested statistics project at the end of the chapter.

 

I'm not arguing that MM is more rigorous than Singapore; their scope and sequence are slightly different, and each program may be a bit stronger in some areas and a bit weaker in others. But given the fact that I own compete sets of both Singapore (U.S.) and Math Mammoth, and have compared them extensively, I would argue that it is simply incorrect to say that one is "hands down more rigorous" than another ~ especially based on a few samples. Even looking at the tables of contents does not tell you anything about how the concept is taught, or how challenging the problems are.

 

Jackie

 

* the answer is x=2, y=5 for those of you who couldn't do it in your head :tongue_smilie:

 

:thumbup:I am so glad you posted this. Very Helpful!

[Dmmetler]

One thing about SM, that I hadn't realized until I took the teacher class for it-it is NOT expected that the books are the end all and be all for most students. Rather, the books include enough problems to introduce the topic and work through some in a group, but it is expected that the teacher will add additional practice problems as the students need them. So, unless your child really is just super good at math, there WILL be concepts that need a lot more practice, and supplementing is expected. Similarly, because of the way schools are structured in Singapore (follows calendar year instead of Agrarian year), students would reach 1B at a similar age to when US students are starting 2nd grade, which explains why a child who tests on a 2nd grade level on other placement tests will probably be somewhere in 1A/1B on Singapore.

[Matryoshka]

EXAMPLE 1: Algebraic Equations

Singapore introduces algebraic equations in 6b, using 1 variable.

 

EXAMPLE 2: Statistics and Graphing

In Singapore 5B there is a single lesson (3 pages) on Line Graphs. In Singapore 6B there is a single lesson on Pie Charts.

 

This is completely accurate for the US Edition of Singapore Math (which happens to be what I'm using and very happy with).

 

But since most people starting out now are choosing the new Standards Edition, it should be pointed out that earlier introduction of algebraic variables, coordinate graphing, and the addition of statistics and probability are some of the most significant changes to the Standards Edition over the US Edition (which is essentially the same as the Singapore Edition - they just changed some money and measurement), so the same comparison with the Standards Edition may yield different results.

 

(Although I think that the original Singapore program may have delayed variables on purpose to force working at the conceptual level with the bar diagrams - but US Standards introduce variables much earlier, so of course it's now in there).

[hmschooling]

Corraleno-- loved your post! Good info to know b/c we are just in MM3 and next dc will start MM1 in the fall.

 

Maria, the author, says after her 5B book you can go into SM 6A until she has her Grade 6 program ready. I like her S&S more than that of SM since the earlier grades really focus on a solid understanding of the facts and their relations to each other, as well as the relationship between the numbers themselves. She makes memorizing facts easy! And understanding them REALLY easy! I love her approach to teaching time in grade 1 as well. (it's in the sample pages)

 

I find that in the end, SM and MM are about the same in content and both emphasize mental/conceptual math. I highly prefer the presentation and ease of use with MM. I like the fact I don't need to add anything to it. My DD8 told me that she much prefers MM as well, and that she LIKES it...:001_huh: That is big news for her to like math!

 

Another thing worth mentioning, is that once you buy the download for a grade, you own it. You don't have to buy more workbooks for the next kid. Just print what you need which is not very expensive! Just a few dollars at Staples, compared to SM's 2 main workbooks, then CWP, EP, IP...

 

I've been on a math program hunt for 5 years and I am finally content with one and not secretly looking for one that might be better all the time. I'm at peace with MM and it's SO easy to teach and learn from, that my kids are at peace and enjoying math with it! To me, it's not the "flavor of the month"...in fact, when I started using it a few months ago, I couldn't even find a single thing about it on this board!

 

 

[mystika1]

Hi,

I am really enjoying this thread.

 

I just wanted to add that if you choose the blue series of Math Mammoth(not the grade level materials)you can introduce topics in what ever order you please and are not restricted to any grade level.:)

 

HTH,

 

Penny

[Closeacademy]

My friend bought MM and I looked at her stuff and decided I liked Singapore better because of the visual aspect. Singapore is very appealing to people who think in pictures like my dd and myself.:001_smile:

[forty-two]

I find that in the end, SM and MM are about the same in content and both emphasize mental/conceptual math. I highly prefer the presentation and ease of use with MM. I like the fact I don't need to add anything to it.

<snip>

Another thing worth mentioning, is that once you buy the download for a grade, you own it. You don't have to buy more workbooks for the next kid. Just print what you need which is not very expensive! Just a few dollars at Staples, compared to SM's 2 main workbooks, then CWP, EP, IP...

So you'd say that each level of MM contains about as much work (in quantity and quality) as the SM text, wb, ep, ip, AND cwp all put together? It really has that many problems?

[HappyGrace]

Thank you, Corraleno. I greatly appreciate you weighing in. I would defer to your opinion since you have had the opportunity to view both programs more fully.

 

Just as an aside, my opinion was not "based on a few samples"-I carefully studied what I have, which is small portions of both programs. (I do have level 2 here of MM, so it wasn't just samples.) And I mentioned exactly what I *was* able to see to form the opinion that Singapore required more of the student. I tried to make it clear that I had not seen the whole of both programs. If you check back, I was only saying that it was more rigorous in the context of the Cal State Standards, and Maria's site shows that that is true. You would certainly have a fuller picture than me, and I'm so glad to hear your thoughts!

 

You don't know what angst I have had this week, trying to decide between these two programs. I have literally been losing sleep over it. I greatly prefer the presentation in MM, and would love to use it over Singapore, so I'm glad someone has been able to fully compare both programs and not find MM lacking compared to Singapore!

 

Since you have seen both, would you be able to extrapolate more for us on what you see as the strengths and weaknesses of each program? I know you said the MM didn't have you flipping between different books-I appreciate that too in MM! Do you have other specifics you'd be able to share for those trying to make an informed decision? The specific examples you already gave in your post were VERY helpful, thank you! And I had one question, if I may-how much do you find yourself having to use the extra worksheets and websites on TOP of the program? It's wonderful that she includes them for extra if you need them, but I was getting a little overwhelmed thinking I had to do them too. Have you found that they mostly catch on w/out the extras? Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Edited February 8, 2010 by HappyGrace

[HappyGrace]

Corraleno-or others who have seen both programs-I thought of a couple more questions!

 

1. Do you feel there is sufficient coverage of the bar models with word (and other) problems in MM as compared to Singapore?

 

2. In levels 3 and above, do you think that MM requires as much of the student as Singapore as far as difficulty level of problems? (For instance, multi-step problems, or problems that require more than just applying the algorithm being studied.)

 

I might be back with more later, if no one minds-I'm really happy to be able pick the brains of those who have been able to extensively look at both! (This will be a long-term decision for me, so I'm trying to look at all aspects.)

[Crimson Wife]

In levels 3 and above, do you think that MM requires as much of the student as Singapore as far as difficulty level of problems? (For instance, multi-step problems, or problems that require more than just applying the algorithm being studied.)

 

:bigear: I'd like to know this, too.

 

Also, for those who've seen the higher levels of both programs, which would be easier to accelerate for an advanced child?

[melmichigan]

You may want to check the correlation charts between US and Standard Editions. http://www.singaporemath.com/FAQ_Primary_Math_s/15.htm#WhichSeriesShouldWeUse Much of this has been addressed with the new Standard Edition.

[hmschooling]

So you'd say that each level of MM contains about as much work (in quantity and quality) as the SM text, wb, ep, ip, AND cwp all put together? It really has that many problems?

 

 

Most people using SM feel for it to be complete, they need all the extra workbooks, and with MM, you just don't need them. The are several problems per page and an included worksheet maker to make targeted skills practice, reviews (included with the grade pack are reviews as well-first is for chapters 1-2, then 1-3 all the way until it covers review of all the chapters), tests, computer games/drills that target skill areas of your choosing with customizable settings, and you can just print what you need. There are LOTS of word problems and I haven't looked ahead into all of 3, but looking at just 2A, there are quite a few and they aren't dinky ones either. Maybe they aren't CWP type (I haven't seen CWP), but they are good. I think both quantity and quality are excellent. The S&S is different than that of SM, but it's very logical and well thought out. In the end, MM covers more of some areas than SM and SM more than MM in others, but both are rigorous programs that teach children to think mathematically and have a strong mental math component and great word problems.

[hmschooling]

Corraleno-or others who have seen both programs-I thought of a couple more questions!

 

1. Do you feel there is sufficient coverage of the bar models with word (and other) problems in MM as compared to Singapore?

 

2. In levels 3 and above, do you think that MM requires as much of the student as Singapore as far as difficulty level of problems? (For instance, multi-step problems, or problems that require more than just applying the algorithm being studied.)

 

I might be back with more later, if no one minds-I'm really happy to be able pick the brains of those who have been able to extensively look at both! (This will be a long-term decision for me, so I'm trying to look at all aspects.)

 

I looked ahead at samples, and I see the bar model used and she states this is one of the main methods she teaches.

 

There are multi-step problems even in the lower levels. It does require dc to use more that just the algorithm being studied b/c much of the review is contained there... meaning some of the steps to solve might be adding multi-digit numbers and borrowing over zeros when the day's new topic is multiplying a 2-digit by a 1-digit number(you get the gist of it ;)). So they must really think and apply what they've learned!

[Corraleno]

Rather than quoting and answering several different questions, I'll try to address them in one post.

 

(1) I think that Math Mammoth and Singapore (US edition) have roughly the same amount of material for each year. For example, both SM 5B and MM 5B have about 180 lesson pages in total. However, in Singapore half of those pages are in the textbook, so the student has to copy the problems onto paper and work them. In MM all the problems are in one place and the student works them directly on the worksheets. If a student is not copying out and working all the problems in the SM textbook, then they are not doing as many problems as MM, unless they are making up the difference with IP, CWP, etc.

 

(2) I don't use any supplements with MM because IMO the concepts are so well explained and illustrated that I've never had a child need extra practice to "get it," and there is enough review built in that neither of my kids have needed extra review. If a parent wanted to supplement MM with Miquon or MEP or CWP for extra challenge, it would be easy to do so (just as easy as supplementing SM with those programs). I've used flash cards with DD for math facts, but MM does also include quite a bit of practice with math facts, number bonds, etc.

 

(3) I feel that the problems in MM are equivalent in difficulty to the regular SM text and workbook, and MM uses the same approach to solve them. The bar diagram is taught and used to solve all word problems, just as in SM. The word problems in MM are good, strong, multi-step problems. They are not as challenging as the "Challenging Problems" in CWP, but they are equivalent to the word problems in the regular SM text & workbook. It would be easy to supplement MM with CWP, if a parent chose to, because concepts are illustrated in the same way and problems are solved the same way.

 

(4) I think you could accelerate a student in either program just by having them do fewer problems. If DS gets a concept right away, and I feel he doesn't need the arithmetic practice of doing every problem, I just circle the ones I want him to do. Personally, I feel it would be easier to accelerate with MM because in SM the "teaching part" is more of a block at the beginning of the chapter, then it alternates between problems in the text and problems in the workbook for the rest of the chapter. So you would need to be marking which problems to cover in both the text & workbook and making sure you aren't skipping a concept in the text. With MM, each concept is broken down into smaller steps, so each daily lesson includes a small amount of "teaching" at the top, followed by problems that illustrate the concept being taught. So, to me, it's easier to just circle the problems you want the child to do that day on the worktext page, rather than go through the SM text and workbook, line up the practice problems in each, and assign which ones to do in which book.

 

I'll try to post some additional sample problems from MM in a separate post.

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

Here is a "Puzzle Corner" problem from MM 4B:

 

Divided by 9, it leaves a remainder of 6.

Divided by 4, it leaves a remainder of 1.

Divided by 10, it leaves a remainder of 3.

What is this number?

 

Problems from MM 4 & 5:

 

Which is a better buy, 1/4 off the price of a $12 CD or 1/3 off the price of a $13.50 CD?

 

Jerry worked 56 hours on a project. Edward worked 3/4 of that amount. James worked 1/2 as many hours as Edward. How many hours did the men work altogether?

 

In June 2007, Sam's house turned exactly 135 years old. Find the age of the house in days. Remember that every 4th year is a leap year. However 1900 was not a leap year.

 

The McKinley's earn $760 weekly, of which they put $120 into savings. They estimate that in one year the family can save approximately $6,000, and in five years about $30,000. Find the exact amounts they would save, and then find the error of estimation.

 

Janet divides a 210-cm string into two unequal parts so that one part is 30 cm longer than the other. Then she divides the shorter piece in half and the longer piece in thirds, getting 5 pieces in total. What are the lengths of those pieces?

 

Joan checked the price of a certain plasma TV in four different stores. She calculated that the average price was $567. In three of the stores the price was $549, $589, and $599. What was the price in the fourth store?

 

The birth weights of a certain litter of piglets were:

1400g 1480g 1250g 1710 g 1630g 1250g 1700g 1820g 1500g

Find the average to the nearest gram.

How many grams below the average were the lightest 2 piglets?

How many grams above average was the heaviest piglet?

Remove the lightest 2 piglets and the heaviest piglet from the data and recalculate the average. Did the average change? If so, by how much?

 

Plot the following functions on the coordinate grid:

y = 3x-2, and x varies from -3 to 5

y = 6-2x and x varies from -3 to 9

 

 

Jackie

[MeganW]

Thank you SO much! This has been so helpful!!

[HappyGrace]

Thank you for the great answers! May I ask another? Although it is a pain juggling the SM HIGs, I find them really helpful, especially the way they break down the word problems with the answers, including bar models. I NEED the answers AND solutions too, spelled out, in front of my face! I seriously lack math literacy, especially word problems. (I am right now reading the Primary Math Teacher's book and I can't figure any of them out on my own-have to look at every single solution.) Does MM have the solutions all spelled out like this? It might make or break it for me!

[Corraleno]

Thank you for the great answers! May I ask another? Although it is a pain juggling the SM HIGs, I find them really helpful, especially the way they break down the word problems with the answers, including bar models. I NEED the answers AND solutions too, spelled out, in front of my face! I seriously lack math literacy, especially word problems. (I am right now reading the Primary Math Teacher's book and I can't figure any of them out on my own-have to look at every single solution.) Does MM have the solutions all spelled out like this? It might make or break it for me!

 

Yes, the answer key for MM includes drawings of the bar diagrams as well as the math leading to the solution, just like SM HIG does.

 

Jackie

[Mesa]

Lets stop talking about this before I go over there and buy the Light Blue Grade 4 books, not that I've been looking! LOL

 

I've a case of the "I wants" now.

 

 

I have a question now. Do any of you find MM is easier to understand and teach than Singapore math was for them? I get confused with SM... sad but true. I spend a lot of time reviewing the lesson for the day before I can tackle teaching it.

[Sweetbabe]

Similarly, because of the way schools are structured in Singapore (follows calendar year instead of Agrarian year), students would reach 1B at a similar age to when US students are starting 2nd grade, which explains why a child who tests on a 2nd grade level on other placement tests will probably be somewhere in 1A/1B on Singapore.

 

 

Yup. From what i gather local kids in Singapore will be 7 years olds for Primary 1 which starts in January (Elementary 6 years at the end of which they take a National Exam) so placements will differ. After the National Exams/PSLE (Primary School Leaving Certificate) the kids choose schools according to their aggregate points. Higher points better schools. Some topics MM introduce earlier are usually thought in taught in their secondary school (usually 4 years).

 

Balancing my oldest boy math curriculum has been the hardest for me since I've not decided whether or not to let my boy to take the PSLE.

[HappyGrace]

Corraleno-I am so sorry I am deluging you with questions today, but I hope it is helping others to hear the answers too! :)

 

Can you mention in your comparison research what you thought were very specific strengths/weaknesses of each program? For instance, what do you think are some weaknesses in MM? Or some strengths in Singapore that you saw that MM may not have, etc.

 

Thank you for indulging us, and for your patience in doing so!! You are a gold mine of information for us, since you've really looked into both programs!

[HappyGrace]

Sweetbabe-that's really interesting! Can you explain that a little more? Did it influence your decision to use MM or Singapore, and why? Thanks!

[HappyGrace]

You are all probably going to tell me to :chillpill: soon, I realize! ;)

[Corraleno]

Do any of you find MM is easier to understand and teach than Singapore math was for them? I get confused with SM... sad but true. I spend a lot of time reviewing the lesson for the day before I can tackle teaching it.

 

MUCH easier. I hated reading the HIGs, then teaching the lesson using the textbook, having DS copy out the problems and work them, then do the problems in the workbook. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

 

Math Mammoth cuts out the middleman ~ instead of having whoever wrote those awful HIGs teach me how to teach the lesson, and then me teaching it, Math Mammoth lets Maria Miller teach my kids directly, in a very clear, step-by-step way. It's like having a one-on-one tutor (who has a Masters in Mathematics and a teaching credential) sit there and walk your child through the problems. If my child has a question, it takes me 60 seconds to read the explanation at the top of the page and answer the question. Let me illustrate the difference between teaching a lesson from Singapore 4A versus Math Mammoth 4A:

 

One lesson from Singapore:

(1) Read HIG p. 63 "Fractions of a Set." Skim pp 64-72, so I know where this is going. Get colored counters and teach the lesson as directed in the HIG.

(2) Go over pages 58 & 59 of textbook with child; do problem 1 orally.

(3) Switch to workbook (as directed in text), find exercise 27 in the workbook, and do the 9 problems.

A parent could certainly stop there, but to me, 9 written problems is not enough math for one day, so I would do a second lesson:

(4) Read HIG page 64, decide not to bother with the counters again.

(5) Go back to textbook, do problems 2 & 3 orally.

(6) Switch back to workbook (as directed in text) and do the 6 problems in exercise 28.

 

One lesson from Math Mammoth:

Take one 3-page lesson from binder (I print out 20 or so lessons at a time and keep them in a binder). Spend 60 seconds reading explanation of concept at top of page and give to student. Student does 20-30 written problems. Done!

 

I'm *NOT* knocking Singapore. I am *NOT* saying that Math Mammoth is better. But for me, and my kids, Math Mammoth:

(1) is vastly easier to schedule and teach;

(2) is easier for my kids to understand; and

(3) includes more practice and review than Singapore.

And, from looking at both Singapore and MM in depth, I don't feel like I'm giving up anything in terms of rigor or conceptual understanding, in return for MM being so much easier to use.

 

Singapore was designed for use in classrooms, by teachers who were trained in that method. Math Mammoth was written specifically for homeschooling parents, who may or may not have a background in math, so it's designed to be as easy to use as possible.

 

Jackie

[HappyGrace]

Corraleno-you deserve a virtual batch of brownies and :grouphug: for taking the time to answer all this so thoroughly today!! Thanks!

 

We know you're not bashing Singapore; just explaining the differences you've found. :001_smile:

[bluemongoose]

I also thank you Corraleno! Every post I read from you makes me more convinced that I should go over and get MM for next year! Thank you for all your help and incite.

[StephanieZ]

FWIW, having taught 3 dc with SM, I can't think of anything easier to teach. I "only" use the Text & WkBk (with occasionally taking a break between levels to do IP for a few weeks. . .) and it is insanely easy to teach. Absolute minimal mom-time. Very, very, easy.

 

(This assumes you are starting from the beginning with 1A. . . all bets are off if you are converting to SM later in the game. . .)

 

I really think many folks are making SM too complicated by adding in all these extra books all the time, HIG, CWP, EP, IP, it's bonkers! ;)

 

Now, I have no quibbles with adding in whatever extras one needs if the BASICS AREN'T DOING THE JOB. . . but I hate to think of people avoiding SM b/c it seems so dang complex (and expensive.)

 

Honestly, folks, all you really need is the text, the wkbk, and a tiny bit (5 min?) of focused mom time on the text each day. . .

 

I realize this is OT. . . but just had to throw in my 2c. . .

 

(3rd dc doing SM now. . .)

[Corraleno]

Many parents, though, don't intuitively know how to teach a concept, and the Singapore textbooks don't include the explanations. They just provide example problems (which I assume are what the teacher in a classroom would be demonstrating to the whole class, along with providing the explanation described in the HIG).

 

For example, when Singapore covers converting improper fractions to mixed numbers, the textbook says:

An improper fraction is equal to or greater than 1. An improper fraction can be expressed as a whole number or a mixed number. Change the improper fractions to mixed numbers:

7/5 = 5/5 + 2/5 = 1 + 2/5

14/5 = 10/5 + 4/5 = 2 + 4/5

There is no further explanation of the concept or why the problems are being solved that way. If the parent wants some direction on how to teach this, they need to consult the HIG, which says:

Discuss ways to change an improper fraction into a mixed number. Write an improper fraction such as 17/5. Use fraction discs or diagrams to illustrate. Your student can make wholes one at a time, such as:

Use 5 fifths to make a whole, this leaves 17-5 = 12 fifths.

Use another 5 fifths for a whole, this leaves 7 fifths.

Make a third whole leaving only 2 fifths.

We put 3 x 5 fifths = 15 fifths into wholes. 15 is the multiple of 5 closest to 17. So the fraction can be broken into 2 fractions, one with 15 of the fifths, and the other with the remaining 2 fifths:

17/5 = 15/5 + 2/5 = 3 2/5

Your student may see the similarity of this to division with a remainder. 17 divided by 5 = 3 with a remainder of 2.

 

Here is the way Math Mammoth teaches converting improper fractions to mixed numbers ~ this is in the worktext, written directly to the student:

To write a fraction, such as 58/7, as a mixed number you need to figure out:

* How many whole "pies" there are, and

* How many "slices" are left over.

In the case of 58/7 each whole "pie" will have 7 sevenths. So we ask:

* How many 7s are there in 58 (these make whole pies)

* After those 7s are gone, how many are left over?

That is solved by division: 58 divided by 7 is 8 with a remainder of 2.

So you get 8 whole "pies," with 2 "slices" or 2 sevenths left over. To write that as a fraction we get 58/7 = 8 2/7.

Think of the fraction bar as a division symbol, then divide. The quotient tells you the whole number part, and the remainder tells you the numerator of the fraction part.

 

Although some parents might be able to teach this off the top of their head, others would not. To me, it's much easier to just let Maria explain it to my child, very clearly, rather than me reading the HIG and trying to explain it myself, or just making up my own explanation.

 

Again, I'm not trying to "convert" anyone who uses and loves Singapore, I'm just trying to illustrate some of the differences for those who are trying to choose between them.

 

Jackie

Edited February 9, 2010 by Corraleno

[Matryoshka]

FWIW, having taught 3 dc with SM, I can't think of anything easier to teach. I "only" use the Text & WkBk (with occasionally taking a break between levels to do IP for a few weeks. . .) and it is insanely easy to teach. Absolute minimal mom-time. Very, very, easy.

 

 

:iagree: This has been my experience as well. I find the explanations in the book very intuitive and can easily "get" what they're trying to teach and extrapolate off the top of my head for my kids when they need more in-depth explanations. And I've managed to get all the way through 6B without being stumped by a problem - my kids may get stumped, but I've been able to work them through it. I have to say that some of the problems in the higher books may have stumped me before I worked through the series with my kids, but I've quite enjoyed learning the bar method myself!

 

I also tend to enjoy less scripting and be able to fill in the blanks myself. I do pretty much no prep other than divvying up the book over the summer so I know how to pace it. On a daily basis I just open the text, glance at the lesson, take 5-10 minutes to teach it, assign the workbook, and done.

 

(This assumes you are starting from the beginning with 1A. . . all bets are off if you are converting to SM later in the game. . .)

 

I'm glad I started at the beginning - I don't know if it would've gone that well if I'd started mid-stream.

 

 

Although some parents might be able to teach this off the top of their head, others would not.

 

But I also agree with what Jackie says here. I'd guess you could tell pretty quickly from looking at Singapore if you find the text intuitive or oblique. :)

Edited February 9, 2010 by matroyshka

[TracyP]

Another question for Corraleno (sorry). Your comparison is very helpful. As such a newbie I'm scared of a program not being "road tested". How long have you been using MM and anyone could answer how long has MM light blue series been around? TIA.

[LoveBaby]

I have a question now. Do any of you find MM is easier to understand and teach than Singapore math was for them? I get confused with SM... sad but true. I spend a lot of time reviewing the lesson for the day before I can tackle teaching it.

 

 

Big huge Yes!!

 

I know that the younger years are basic math, but the way the material in Singapore is presented made it very difficult for me to break down and explain to my children. I'm not particularly mathy, but I also feel like I have a pretty solid understanding of basic math operations and Singapore was leaving me feeling like a goob! :tongue_smilie:

 

I was so relieved when I found other mama's saying the same thing, because I was seriously wondering if I *was* really smart enough to teach my kids! :lol:

[mystika1]

Just thought I'd mention that if you purchase MM from the homeschool buyers coop you get 20% off!

 

http://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/math/

 

I imagine some of you may be purchasing MM after this nice thread!:D

 

HTH,

 

Penny

[Corraleno]

Another question for Corraleno (sorry). Your comparison is very helpful. As such a newbie I'm scared of a program not being "road tested". How long have you been using MM and anyone could answer how long has MM light blue series been around? TIA.

 

I think she started writing the curriculum in 2002, and began the Light Blue series in 2007. (I've used it since 2008.) But Maria didn't invent a brand new, untried method of teaching math ~ she uses the same bar diagram approach to word problems as Singapore, and illustrates problems in many of the same ways. She teaches math conceptually and emphasizes mental math just like Singapore. The differences are (1) more practice and review, (2) explanations are broken down step-by-step so they are easier for the child to understand, and (3) it's packaged in a way that's easier for a parent (who may not have a background in math) to use. They are similar enough programs that a student who uses Math Mammoth can switch to Singapore for 6th grade (since MM 6th isn't out yet), and Maria recommends supplementing with Singapore CWP for those who want extra-challenging word problems.

 

I understand why some people feel it's important to have a curriculum that's "tried & true," yet when I look at my own curriculum choices, many of them are newer and more unusual programs: Math Mammoth, Life of Fred, Kinetic Books, Michael Clay Thompson language arts, CPO Science, OUP series for history. I'm one of those parents who tends to research things to death and I generally try to find inexpensive used copies of practically every curriculum that appeals to me so I can really compare them, maybe try them out for a week or two with my kids, and then choose the one I think will work best with (1) my teaching style and (2) my kids' learning styles.

 

Sometimes new curricula build on older programs, adapting them for new users (Math Mammoth). Sometimes they can strip away the excesses and inefficiencies introduced into public school curricula and present material in a much cleaner, clearer way (CPO Science). Sometimes they take a totally different approach from other programs, but I can intuitively see how it would work and why it would be great for my kids (e.g. Life of Fred & MCT LA).

 

I think Math Mammoth takes the tried-&-true, road-tested methods of Singapore and adapts them for homeschool use, and I've seen how rigorous it is, so I have no worries about whether it will adequately prepare my kids for upper level math.

 

Jackie

[TracyP]

Thank you Jackie. All your info has been very helpful. I have been very frustrated by wanting SM to work but just seeing that it isn't (and I'm only in first grade:tongue_smilie:). Right now I own MUS Alpha, CLE 100's and SM 1a - 2b. I didn't know this was going to be so hard! DH is being supportive about "figure it out now - not when she is 12" but I don't really want to purchase another, KWIM?

 

Okay, I really like the way concepts are introduced in MUS but I don't know about the S & S. *I* like everything about SM but my dd is not "getting" it (I suspect the problem lies with teacher - not student). I think the spiral aspect of CLE might be good for dd but I see that the "why" is not being touched on at all. Will MM solve all this?:001_smile:

[hmschooling]

I have a question now. Do any of you find MM is easier to understand and teach than Singapore math was for them? I get confused with SM... sad but true. I spend a lot of time reviewing the lesson for the day before I can tackle teaching it.

 

MUCH easier to understand and teach than SM!! I have the whole set for SM 3 and just can't do all the pre-reading/prep. With MM, all I do it pull out the pages and go.

 

 

Corraleno- thank you for the improper fraction lesson comparison...What a huge difference between the two! I wasn't looking forward to the lessons with SM b/c I was having such trouble teaching them in a way dd could understand...with MM, I'm finding it's so much easier to teach, and seeing this example from future levels makes me feel so much more at ease! We can still have our solid math program and I can still keep my sanity and not feel like a math dunce. LOL

[Mesa]

I have SM from 1A to 3B I am jumping ship to MM now! Wish me luck.

It's just too hard for me trudge through the HIG. The textbook is easy peasy, it's that HIG thats tripping me up. I dont feel comfortable dropping the HIG either. The additional pages in the back, the instruction, extra practice, and math games are very important components to SM.

Thank you for answering my question.