Amazon Dropping Publishers Over eBook Price Dispute

[Saille]

I thought the Hive would find this interesting:

 

The problem:

http://arielgore.com/2010/01/erg-to-amazon-just-when-i-was-getting.html

 

An apparent resolution?

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/01/31/opinion/main6161246.shtml

[Perry]

Interesting. I'd be more sympathetic to Macmillan if I understood who would benefit from the higher price. I'm guessing it wouldn't be the authors.

[Rhonda in TX]

Kindle customers further reported on Amazon forums that any Macmillan books that were on their "wish lists" disappeared from those lists with no explanation, as apparently did Macmillan sample chapters that had been downloaded previously.

 

They said this wouldn't happen again after the 1984 incident, but it appears they lied.

[ConnieB]

Anyone see the line about several other publishers are considering delaying the sales on ebooks for a short time so they protect the hardback sales? That could annoy me just as much as the video folks putting out a movie on DVD and then a month or two later putting out the "extended version" of the same movie with the extra DVD that should have been in the first release! I no longer buy movies when they first come out, because I'm tired of having to re-buy them for the extras which my kids enjoy sometimes as much as the movie itself. It actually works wonderfully for me, because by the time I decide that they aren't going to release a bigger version the DVD is no longer the latest and greatest and so it's bargain priced, lol.

 

Someday the big business folk are going to realize that some consumers have caught on to their crapola and will just start doing business honestly. Ok, maybe in my fantasy world, but I prefer living there.

 

So...if you have a ebook reader, you want to remember to wait before assuming it's not coming out on ebook and don't give in to buying the hardback first!

[KidsHappen]

I do have to wonder if Amazon is right about this. Doesn't an ebook reduce the cost of the book due material alone? I would not pay the same amount of money for an ebook as I would for an actual physical book.

[asta]

Part of why I don't own a Kindle is because of that deleting thing. With a Sony reader, the books are downloaded to my computer, and then to my reader. There is no wireless download anything. They have no way to "take back" anything.

 

I acknowledge that an e-book is essentially vaporware and costs them nothing, but I also believe that an author should be paid for their intellectual property. And if the going rate for a book is $15, then that is the going rate, whether it is on paper or electrons. But, yeah, too bad the author doesn't see that $15 - the bigwig admin people do.

 

 

a

[torikei]

I guess I tend to sympathize with Amazon. Kindle owners are really ticked when prices go over 9.99 unless it's for a technical manual or something similar. The push for publishers to go over 9.99 is simply to line their own pockets. E-books should be cheaper since manufacturing, shipping, etc have been eliminated. E-books will be a wonderful way for publishers to make money as old out of print books can easily be made into e-books. I just don't understand why they have to get greedy. I think it's great that Amazon is more worried about keeping me as a customer than some publishing giant.

 

Tori

[Rhonda in TX]

Aren't most hardback books in the $20+ range? If so, the e-book prices are lower than that.

[Scuff]

Seriously, what cost is involved in an ebook? Can't be much. I'd be irritated paying $10 for an ebook, as you're not really getting anything for it. Well, that's why I haven't gotten a kindle, though the convenience of it would be nice.

[Scuff]

I think they meant hardcopy, as in something you can hold in your hands, not the actual binding.

[asta]

Seriously, what cost is involved in an ebook? Can't be much. I'd be irritated paying $10 for an ebook, as you're not really getting anything for it. Well, that's why I haven't gotten a kindle, though the convenience of it would be nice.

 

HUH? You're getting someone's life's work!

 

It's not the cost of the ebook, it's the WORTH of the BOOK - not the individual item with a cover and pages - the total "cost" of the author's intellectual property that is at stake here.

 

How would any one of us feel if our job as a mother were reduced to the cost of doing laundry at a laundry mat simply because, on a given day, that is the one "tangible" thing we had time to do? Or the price of one meal at a restaurant because we managed to cook ONE meal? It would be absurd.

 

Of course we've all read those studies that add up the cost of full time childcare and cookery and maid service, etc. that show fantastic numbers that no non-f/t housewife ever believes... but it is no different for a producer of intellectual property. Just because WE don't see everything that goes into someone's written work, does not make it WORTH any less.

 

 

a

Edited February 1, 2010 by asta

[Rhonda in TX]

Just because WE don't see everything that goes into someone's written work, does not make it WORTH any less.

 

:iagree:

[Perry]

Seriously, what cost is involved in an ebook? Can't be much. I'd be irritated paying $10 for an ebook, as you're not really getting anything for it. Well, that's why I haven't gotten a kindle, though the convenience of it would be nice.

I was wondering this too, and I ran across this blog entry. I don't know how accurate it is, but the author sounds like (s)he knows what (s)he's talking about. :D

There seem to be lots of costs related to editing, marketing, etc. that would still exist with an ebook. I'd still think it would be a lot cheaper.

[Murphy101]

I'm with Amazon on this one.

And I don't have any ebooks at all.

One of the main points of a kindle or any ebook format is that it's cheaper, instant, and takes up less space than a hardcopy book would.

 

So, let's make it more expensive, take longer to get, and hope they buy it after already getting a hardback book? Who's the idiot in the publishing house that obviously can't figure basic consumerism and economics?:001_huh:

 

And yeah, the whine about concern for the authors is hard to accept given how little they get from publishers.

 

I think Amazon did the right thing, with the huge exception of the deleting off the Kindle. That would royal tick me off. Hello, I already bought that!! That is no different than comming into my home and taking a book off the shelf.:glare:

[RegGuheert]

There is a BIG difference in purchasing intellectual property in the form of an eBook versus purchasing that same intellectual property in the form of a physical book: When you purchase a physical book, you get the intellectual property and you have full rights to redistribute that one book, including the intellectual property contained therein, including selling it. If you purchase an eBook, your ability to resell that book is *severely* limited as part of your purchase agreement. I do not think publishers are recognizing this fact in their eBook pricing.

 

It is because of this loss of redistribution rights that I feel eBooks should be priced significantly lower than physical books. In the end it is not Amazon or MacMillan that will set the prices for their books. The market will speak, but only if we can maintain some competition in this emerging marketplace for eBooks.

 

I will also say that Apple and their iPad are likely involved here somehow. I suspect Macmillan may have an agreement in place to sell their wares on the iPad and was therefore willing to go head-to-head with Amazon on this issue. The problem I have with Apple is that I feel their desire to have a 30% cut is out of line.

 

BTW, I don't feel the same way about newspapers, but I do feel there should be a discount for eBooks equivalent to the cost savings involved with printing and distribution.

[asta]

There is a BIG difference in purchasing intellectual property in the form of an eBook versus purchasing that same intellectual property in the form of a physical book: When you purchase a physical book, you get the intellectual property and you have full rights to redistribute that one book, including the intellectual property contained therein, including selling it. If you purchase an eBook, your ability to resell that book is *severely* limited as part of your purchase agreement. I do not think publishers are recognizing this fact in their eBook pricing.

 

It is because of this loss of redistribution rights that I feel eBooks should be priced significantly lower than physical books. In the end it is not Amazon or MacMillan that will set the prices for their books. The market will speak, but only if we can maintain some competition in this emerging marketplace for eBooks.

 

I will also say that Apple and their iPad are likely involved here somehow. I suspect Macmillan may have an agreement in place to sell their wares on the iPad and was therefore willing to go head-to-head with Amazon on this issue. The problem I have with Apple is that I feel their desire to have a 30% cut is out of line.

 

BTW, I don't feel the same way about newspapers, but I do feel there should be a discount for eBooks equivalent to the cost savings involved with printing and distribution.

 

I agree with you. And yes, I can see that, if a paper book is $20, an ebook could be $10. But I get the sense that people somehow think ebooks should be priced like a song off of iTunes - .99 to $1.99 - and that is just absurd.

 

 

a

[RegGuheert]

But I get the sense that people somehow think ebooks should be priced like a song off of iTunes - .99 to $1.99 - and that is just absurd.

I agree. Perhaps some people fail to recognize that they are getting about 1/12 of an album when they purchase an individual song, so in most cases they are paying *more* than they would have if they had the purchased the CD.

 

The difference is that most books cannot be divided in a similar manner.

 

ETA: I'm wondering if the publishers are also failing to see this distinction. Perhaps they are saying to themselves "We are charging more for electronic versions of music (per unit), so why can't we do the same thing with books?"

Edited February 1, 2010 by RegGuheert

[Aubrey]

I agree with you. And yes, I can see that, if a paper book is $20, an ebook could be $10. But I get the sense that people somehow think ebooks should be priced like a song off of iTunes - .99 to $1.99 - and that is just absurd.

 

 

a

 

That seems like a good start at pricing, but how does one address resale value? I tend to buy my books used at 1/2p or less & *still* have the opportunity to resell them if I want--although by then, their resale value is about 1/10 of the original price.

 

I would love the space-saving & convenience of something like a Kindle, & at some point that would even be enough for me to consider forking over the up-front cost of the reader, BUT...

 

w/out being able to buy used, resell, or have any kind of...hmm, how to put it? I assume the kindle can wear out like a computer, files can be lost, & so there's a huge risk there--$300+ for the kindle, plus $10/ea for the books. My paper books don't carry nearly that much risk, kwim? And I can loan them, give them, sell them. I can make copies, w/in copyright law, of a p or 2.

 

Instead of looking at the savings of not having to print the book--although I do think that's a good place to start--I think the pricing structure needs to be radically changed. How much does an author typically make off of a book? 10%? 20? That would be the base starting price of an e-book, with minimal extras tacked on. Publishers would make $ off of higher quantities sold with fewer stages of publication involved--not just the savings of the paper & shipping, but the phone calls, secretaries, & editors' time, looking at galleys & relooking.

 

I don't really know much about the publishing industry, so maybe I'm wrong about the whole process. I just know that I'm faaaaaar from a place in life where I could afford to make the switch from paper to digital, unless they can accomodate for the losses of the switch. As long as I'm in the minority, though, that shouldn't slow their progress. :001_smile:

[angela in ohio]

I was wondering this too, and I ran across this blog entry. I don't know how accurate it is, but the author sounds like (s)he knows what (s)he's talking about. :D

There seem to be lots of costs related to editing, marketing, etc. that would still exist with an ebook. I'd still think it would be a lot cheaper.

 

That was an interesting post (and discussion following.) There seem to be several places that money is saved: printing, covering the cost of unsold copies, and distribution (it has to cost more to physically move books than to send them electronically, and that difference will only widen as more consumers use ebooks and the technology becomes less expensive and/or is paid off.

 

I think selling used books wouldn't have been such an issue for people before online sources for doing so. It seems much more common for people to sell their old books and buy used ones than it used to be. Now I think it is a factor to consider. If your ebook is more expensive or the same price, can't be resold, comes out after the print version... what is the point? Your market will be limited to those who like electronic gadgets and/or lack space for print books.

[Parrothead]

That seems like a good start at pricing, but how does one address resale value? I tend to buy my books used at 1/2p or less & *still* have the opportunity to resell them if I want--although by then, their resale value is about 1/10 of the original price.

 

 

But you can not expect to buy new ebooks for the same price of used regular books. You have to compare apples to apples.

 

If I purchase a new book I expect to pay a new book price, not 1/1 price or less. If ever a time comes that ebooks can be traded from appliance to appliance then, yes, paying less for used than full price can be expected.

 

I am with the publisher with this. A publishing company does quite a bit of work besides print and bind a book. There is editing, layout, marketing, advertising, etc to take into consideration. A new ebook should be priced at full price for a hardback (if the first edition is not a mass market paperback) minus the cost of printing and binding, and possibly shipping. It may not seem as though one is getting much more than a bunch of ones and zeros with a Kindle type appliance download, but actually one is buying a book. A book that someone has written and a team of someones has put typeset, edited, and marketed. This second team needs to be paid also.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Parrothead

[Aubrey]

But you can not expect to buy new ebooks for the same price of used regular books. You have to compare apples to apples.

 

If I purchase a new book I expect to pay a new book price, not 1/1 price or less. If ever a time comes that ebooks can be traded from appliance to appliance then, yes, paying less for used than full price can be expected.

 

Well...I do see your point. But apply it to anything else we buy--cars, for ex. Imagine a new kind of car came out that somehow had a digital key system so that it could never be resold. Maybe your thumbprint is the only thing that will open it. Considering the value that a car loses when you drive it off the lot, would you really want to put the same amt of $ into one of these that you'd put into something that could later be sold?

 

Likewise, if you buy a house on a busy street that you know very few sane people would ever consider buying (& therefore has low odds of resale), you'd a) have to be willing to keep the house, whether to live in or rent, & b) expect to get a really good deal.

 

The fact is, new books lose 1/2 their value, give or take, when they walk out of the new bookstore. That *has* to be taken into consideration for books that can't be resold the same way that resale value is considered for cars & houses.

[Parrothead]

Well...I do see your point. But apply it to anything else we buy--cars, for ex. Imagine a new kind of car came out that somehow had a digital key system so that it could never be resold. Maybe your thumbprint is the only thing that will open it. Considering the value that a car loses when you drive it off the lot, would you really want to put the same amt of $ into one of these that you'd put into something that could later be sold?

Who is the foolish person that would purchase the thing in the first place? There would not be a market for such a vehicle. Or if there were a market it would be a collectible type deal.

 

Likewise, if you buy a house on a busy street that you know very few sane people would ever consider buying (& therefore has low odds of resale), you'd a) have to be willing to keep the house, whether to live in or rent, & b) expect to get a really good deal.

If the only thing "wrong" with this house is that it is on a busy street then one markets the house to people that do not have small children and dogs. Houses on busy streets are purchased all the time. Sub-prime books are published all the time.

 

The cost of these books is not the same as the cost of a number one best selling author is. Judy Smith's romance novel is going to sell for $5 mass market paperback, while Nora Roberts new novel is going to sell for $10 mmpb. Then the ebook could be sold for slightly less. And that may vary. Some people may readily spend $2 on an unknown Judy Smith ebook, but these same people may spend $9.50 on a new Nora Roberts ebook.

 

The fact is, new books lose 1/2 their value, give or take, when they walk out of the new bookstore. That *has* to be taken into consideration for books that can't be resold the same way that resale value is considered for cars & houses.

Unless one rents his/her Kindle. If one had a really popular book on one's Kindle one could easily make more than the price paid for the book in the first place. And of course renting one's appliance would have to be done when the cost of the applliance was more affordable. I can see the amount of books public libraries housing tripling by housing Kindles.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Parrothead

[hornblower]

. How much does an author typically make off of a book? 10%? 20? That would be the base starting price of an e-book, with minimal extras tacked on.

 

Standard royalty rates are 4-8%, with some high flyers (with good agents) being able to demand a few percentage points more.

If you're agented, an agent takes 10% of your income.

 

If you publish directly with an e-publisher (publishers who ONLY pub in electronic format), their royalties are often in the 30-40% range. As I said in another post, their editorial and marketing support can be very minimal. Not always, but usually they provide minimal editing/revision, slap a cheezy "cover" from stock photos on it, & put it on their website. Tada! You're 'published'. Good luck figuring out how to sell this book.

 

Where the REAL debate lies is with books that you sell to a traditional publisher with a traditional contract, who also will make it avail as an e-book. In that case there are really NO extra costs to the publisher, kwim? They've already provided the author and the book with their best editorial and copy reading team, the graphics team came up with an image, the marketing department is figuring out how to maximize exposure. The book, hard cover or paperback, is done. BUT we just want to do one little thing with it & that is allow it to be downloadable in a different format.

 

Now - how much should the author be paid for that? Some figure roughly the same $ amount as the original contract. So if your contact said 7% if a $30 shelf price hardcover, you'd be getting $2.10 per book & so perhaps your contract should say something like 21% of the ebook price (assuming $10 for the ebook) Some publishers want to give authors the 7% across the board, arguing that this would be like if the book goes hardcover and then paperback and assuming you have the same royalty rate for both formats.....

 

It's all in a turmoil with authors and agetnts and publishers all trying to figure this out & make the best deals for themselves.

[lionfamily1999]

I'm with Amazon on this one.

And I don't have any ebooks at all.

One of the main points of a kindle or any ebook format is that it's cheaper, instant, and takes up less space than a hardcopy book would.

 

So, let's make it more expensive, take longer to get, and hope they buy it after already getting a hardback book? Who's the idiot in the publishing house that obviously can't figure basic consumerism and economics?:001_huh:

 

And yeah, the whine about concern for the authors is hard to accept given how little they get from publishers.

 

I think Amazon did the right thing, with the huge exception of the deleting off the Kindle. That would royal tick me off. Hello, I already bought that!! That is no different than comming into my home and taking a book off the shelf.:glare:

:iagree: with everything you wrote.

 

I find it interesting that it would cost so much to create an 'e' book. To the point where you can buy paperbacks cheaper!?! I do understand that you are buying someone's hard work, you're paying for their ideas, but I don't think that overcharging in a new media format is going to help. It's also pretty incredible, imo, that a store would say something costs too much and refuse to carry it.

 

I just wish they wouldn't back down.

[Mrs Mungo]

Part of why I don't own a Kindle is because of that deleting thing. With a Sony reader, the books are downloaded to my computer, and then to my reader. There is no wireless download anything. They have no way to "take back" anything.

 

I agree. I bought my Sony after the 1984 incident and it was one of the big reasons that I chose the Sony over the Kindle.

 

Seriously, what cost is involved in an ebook? Can't be much. I'd be irritated paying $10 for an ebook, as you're not really getting anything for it. Well, that's why I haven't gotten a kindle, though the convenience of it would be nice.

 

I disagree with this. Writers and their helpers, editors, marketers, there are plenty of people who need to be paid.

 

It is because of this loss of redistribution rights that I feel eBooks should be priced significantly lower than physical books. In the end it is not Amazon or MacMillan that will set the prices for their books. The market will speak, but only if we can maintain some competition in this emerging marketplace for eBooks.

 

I do agree with this. It's something I take into account when purchasing curriculum, it's something I take into account when buying ebooks.

 

I will also say that Apple and their iPad are likely involved here somehow. I suspect Macmillan may have an agreement in place to sell their wares on the iPad and was therefore willing to go head-to-head with Amazon on this issue. The problem I have with Apple is that I feel their desire to have a 30% cut is out of line.

 

I agree.

 

BTW, I don't feel the same way about newspapers, but I do feel there should be a discount for eBooks equivalent to the cost savings involved with printing and distribution.

 

Agreed. The margin of profit on newspapers is too slim as it is and they are disposable.

 

In general? I think in the next 5-10 years the media industry is going to have to take some big paycuts. They have been extraordinary overpaid for their efforts in the recent past. Given the current state of affairs, I think adjustments are in order.

[TravelingChris]

I would be interested in knowing the stats of who buys what books and in what format. It seems to me that most hardback fiction that is original format (not BOM or something like that) is sold to libraries. Now I think that I may be like many people who do buy paperback novels occasionally but buy hardback books almost always that are non-fiction. I don't spend 250 a year or even 10 years on fiction books. I can't see why any of these e-book readers would be worth it for me. Maybe if I lived in a place without libraries. But I never have, even when I lived overseas and had to rely on small English libraries. I managed to always have things to read and I read very fast.

 

I think that the printing and binding is very low cost. The transportation wouldn't be all that high anyway. However, with the bookstore mark-up, I think that $15 might be a bit too high. Even $9 is too high for me to spend to buy a fiction book since I don't spend that much normally.

[Mrs Mungo]

I can't see why any of these e-book readers would be worth it for me. Maybe if I lived in a place without libraries. But I never have, even when I lived overseas and had to rely on small English libraries. I managed to always have things to read and I read very fast.

 

Again, I have the Sony e-reader. You can download tons of classic books in the public domain for free. You can load pdfs onto it.

 

As far as who buys books and in what format-there are very, very few books that I buy new in hardback. I buy quite a few hardbacks at used bookstores or garage sales. Books I really love like Rebecca or The Princess Bride I own library bound hardbacks. I probably buy a paperback book once a week on average.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Mrs Mungo

[Scuff]

I'm not saying they shouldn't be paid. I'd be willing to pay the same mark up. But the costs are going to be less. You're not printing a book, not shipping it, not storing it in a warehouse or having unsold extra copies laying around. And I know it's someone's hard work, but there is nothing tangible that adds to the cost. Like I said, I don't mind paying the same markup, but not the same price as an actual book.

[Jenn in Mo]

 

I think Amazon did the right thing, with the huge exception of the deleting off the Kindle. That would royal tick me off. Hello, I already bought that!! That is no different than comming into my home and taking a book off the shelf.:glare:

 

But they didn't delete books - just sample chapters. Or am I reading that wrong? From what I gathered, the titles were removed off of wishlists and sample chapters were removed from kindles. But not books.

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around how even a free sample chapter could be deleted. Are these not just files that you download and own? Can they be stored on your computer and moved to your kindle?

[nmoira]

From what I gathered, the titles were removed off of wishlists and sample chapters were removed from kindles. But not books.

I would be peeved beyond peeved if Amazon deleted anything from my wishlist. I've put a *lot* of work into organizing those by subject, etc.

 

Edited to add: This is as good a time as any to move the bulk of my wishlists over to LibraryThing. <sigh>

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around how even a free sample chapter could be deleted. Are these not just files that you download and own? Can they be stored on your computer and moved to your kindle?

You don't technically own what you purchase from Amazon... you license it. Courts may decide differently down the road, but the issue has not yet been litigated. I'll wager there's some fine print to this effect for sample chapters as well. Edited February 1, 2010 by nmoira

[Mom-ninja.]

What happened with 1984?

[RegGuheert]

There is a lot of explicit discussion in the press and in this thread about the needs of the authors, publishers and distributors, but there is less discussion of the value expectations of customers. Unless the price is at or below what a prospective customer considers to be the value of the product being offered, they will NOT make the purchase. This thread has touched on many aspects of what book customers consider valuable, so let's organize the discussion a little by naming them:

 

What factors impact the value expectation of a product?

1) Suitability to the needs of the customer - In the case of books versus ebooks, there are cases where ebooks are better suited and other cases where books are better suited. For instance, some have mentioned loving the feel of a physical book in their hands and others have discussed the low weight of ebooks. Another aspect of suitability is how the product suits the image of the individual: Are you an early-adopter or do you view technology with suspicion? While this will affect the relative value of the two choices in individual purchasing situations, I don't think it affects the overall pricing since each option has pluses and minuses. (That is true unless the seller comes up with a way to differentiate between the different type of purchasers. For instance, the reason airline tickets are cheaper if you travel over a Saturday night is because that is a fairly accurate way of differentiating between business and vacation travelers. No doubt something will be done to try to differentiate between different type of ebook buyers, but I have no idea how.)

 

2) Durability - Another way to look at durability is the perceived future resale value. This is a critical issue in the book/ebook debate, and it is one of the real problems that publishers face: ebooks do NOT wear out. Because they are digital, copies of ebooks are just as good as the original. This is why they have a strong need to heavily restrict the licensing of ebooks. The result is that they have taken a perfectly durable product and changed the resale value to zero via the licensing agreement. This compares to physical books which have a resale value that tends to go toward zero over time as the book receives damage and/or wear. (At some point, *very* old books begin to appreciate again.) One issue that is often overlooked here is that if you decide to switch to a different type of e-reader, you cannot sell your purchased books with them. Perhaps this can change in the future.

 

3) Urgency - The more urgently something is needed, the more one is typically willing to pay for it. ebooks have a big advantage here since they can be delivered instantly, so they are well-suited for the gotta-have-it-now crowd. OTOH, if there is a low urgency on a purchase, lower-price options will likely be more attractive. In the case of classic books this may also favor ebooks since many can be had for free (zero marginal cost). For many other books, like fiction, low urgency tends to favor purchasing used books.

 

4) Value/price of competing options - Most buying decisions are made by considering multiple options. In this discussion, the obvious competition is between books and ebooks. But there are other important types of competition. For instance, there is the ever-present "do nothing" option in which the prospective customer decides to purchase nothing. There is also competition within eBooks and within books to purchase from different vendors or to purchase different quality levels. Finally, there is competition for the same dollars from different products: "I need to buy dinner more than I need to buy that book."

 

5) Simplicity/ease of the transaction - The ease of making a purchase can strongly influence the decision process, particularly for an inexpensive product like a book. Amazon has made this process *too* simple for many book purchases, and ebook purchases tend to be even simpler. This is one of the benefits that many e-reader users have commented about.

 

I think these are the main categories that we all consider when we consider the value of a prospective purchase. If you can think of other factors that impact what you might pay for a book or ebook that do not fall under these categories, please let us know what they are.

 

As others have mentioned, I do not think the dust has settled on the licensing and pricing models for ebooks. IMO, the more competition we have for our ebook dollars, the better off we will be. I'm very hopeful that the ebook market does not end up in the hands of only one or just a small number of vendors.

Edited February 2, 2010 by RegGuheert
Added 5).

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Bigwig admin people would include copy editors, proof editors, the secretaries and assistants to the bigwigs, the folks who run the loading dock where paper and ink come in and books go out, the folks who write the catalog copy, do graphic design for the catalogs, design the book covers, set up company websites, do promotions, etc.

 

I would suggest that most of the books published in the US don't turn a big profit for anyone. They do probably turn tidy little sums for a great many people. Not all of whom are bigwigs

 

There are vanity presses out there for authors who want to do it themselves. But that is a hard row to hoe as well. Most books are a huge gamble. Publishers probably end up subsidizing a lot of no name authors with the work of the biggies who will compel readers to spend $25 on that new hardback.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

FWIW, MacMillian includes Kingfisher, Sunburst (imprint of Rosemary Sutcliff titles), and Henry Holt & Co (Brown Bear, Brown Bear, What Do You See?).

 

I'm not currently in need of books, but this does argue for using a homeschool vendor for my next curriculum order rather than splitting it between a vendor and Amazon. Or just holding off until I can get to a Half Price Books again.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I thought the Hive would find this interesting:

 

The problem:

http://arielgore.com/2010/01/erg-to-amazon-just-when-i-was-getting.html

 

An apparent resolution?

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/01/31/opinion/main6161246.shtml

 

The CBS piece was dated 31 Jan, but I'm still seeing no buy new from Amazon listings for many of the MacMillian titles on Amazon. I spot checked Ender's Game; Kingfisher titles; Brown Bear Brown Bear What Do You See; and Rosemary Sutcliff.

[Harriet Vane]

Bigwig admin people would include copy editors, proof editors, the secretaries and assistants to the bigwigs, the folks who run the loading dock where paper and ink come in and books go out, the folks who write the catalog copy, do graphic design for the catalogs, design the book covers, set up company websites, do promotions, etc.

 

I would suggest that most of the books published in the US don't turn a big profit for anyone. They do probably turn tidy little sums for a great many people. Not all of whom are bigwigs

 

There are vanity presses out there for authors who want to do it themselves. But that is a hard row to hoe as well. Most books are a huge gamble. Publishers probably end up subsidizing a lot of no name authors with the work of the biggies who will compel readers to spend $25 on that new hardback.

 

:iagree:

 

I worked in publishing for seven years.

 

At my favorite place of employment, each book had the following primary people working on it:

 

--1 editor

--3 copy editors

--1-2 typesetters

--2 proofreaders

--1-2 graphic designers

 

In addition there were marketing and sales people, various admin assistants, and an author relations manager. That's a lot of people! There's a LOT that goes into making a book that has nothing to do with printing it on paper. And, unless the author is a Big Name, their cut isn't all that generous either.

[tex-mex]

HUH? You're getting someone's life's work!

 

It's not the cost of the ebook, it's the WORTH of the BOOK - not the individual item with a cover and pages - the total "cost" of the author's intellectual property that is at stake here.

 

How would any one of us feel if our job as a mother were reduced to the cost of doing laundry at a laundry mat simply because, on a given day, that is the one "tangible" thing we had time to do? Or the price of one meal at a restaurant because we managed to cook ONE meal? It would be absurd.

 

Of course we've all read those studies that add up the cost of full time childcare and cookery and maid service, etc. that show fantastic numbers that no non-f/t housewife ever believes... but it is no different for a producer of intellectual property. Just because WE don't see everything that goes into someone's written work, does not make it WORTH any less.

 

 

a

:iagree: BTW, it looks like Amazon just got hit broadside with Apple's iPad. Who knows if this will phase out the Kindle? I'm an old fashioned book lover who has held out so far from buying any eBooks or eReaders -- but love the iPhone and iPod. Personally, I'm waiting to buy the iPad 2.0 -- once it comes out with Flash to surf. :D I love the iPhone apps, games, TV shows, movies, and my email is accessable with FB. The iPad would make it even better in ONE device. (But still sad it has no camera.) Whoever said the books on iTunes would be like $1.99 is nuts -- today on iTunes the audiobook for Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief runs $20. On Amazon -- the audiobook is $13 and Kindle version is $6. I read a news report guessing that Amazon may have to raise prices for Kindle downloads to be making money with the iPad debut.

 

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1958217,00.html

 

P.S. If iPad merged with Netflix for instant viewing, baby... I'd be in hog heaven. LOL

Edited February 2, 2010 by tex-mex

[asta]

Whoever said the books on iTunes would be like $1.99 is nuts --

 

I'm the one who mentioned the $1.99 figure.

 

What I meant was, it often seems as if people kinda sorta want something for nothing. I was using the .99 - $1.99 priced songs as an example. Rather than seeing books and ebooks (and ebooks and esongs) as the apples and oranges that they are, I think people tend to lump them all together as "digital content that should be extremely low priced or free".

 

Is there "free" digital ebook content? Of course. Mrs. Mungo has already mentioned some in the Sony eReader thread. But that content, just as it wasn't always on electrons, wasn't always free - at one point in its life, there was a price affixed to it. Heck, for that matter, there is a price affixed to it now: server costs, costs to format it and upload it to websites, etc. etc.

 

Nothing is "free" - there is always an opportunity cost.

 

 

a

[RoughCollie]

Why does one book need so many people to work on it? That just doesn't seem efficient or effective to me, especially in a time when so few adults read books and fewer still purchase them.

 

At my favorite place of employment, each book had the following primary people working on it:

 

--1 editor

--3 copy editors

--1-2 typesetters

--2 proofreaders

--1-2 graphic designers

 

 

[katilac]

Just to clarify: People keep saying that Kindle books are only on the Kindle, whereas the Sony books are on both the computer and the ereader, but that's misleading. Yes, you can instantly download your books onto your Kindle, but you can also load them onto your computer. You can read the Kindle book on the Kindle itself, on the computer, and on your iphone or itouch. I think it's up to five devices; we are currently using 4 (kindle, computer, iphone, itouch). And, you can back up your Kindle files just like any other computer file.

 

Not that I'm in love with the limiitations that are in place, mind you, but they are typical of digital media. The marketplace is going to take a while to sort out.

[Murphy101]

Wowza! That does sound divine! Count me in too. Very similiar style we have there. :iagree:

 

 

:iagree: BTW, it looks like Amazon just got hit broadside with Apple's iPad. Who knows if this will phase out the Kindle? I'm an old fashioned book lover who has held out so far from buying any eBooks or eReaders -- but love the iPhone and iPod. Personally, I'm waiting to buy the iPad 2.0 -- once it comes out with Flash to surf. :D I love the iPhone apps, games, TV shows, movies, and my email is accessable with FB. The iPad would make it even better in ONE device. (But still sad it has no camera.) Whoever said the books on iTunes would be like $1.99 is nuts -- today on iTunes the audiobook for Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief runs $20. On Amazon -- the audiobook is $13 and Kindle version is $6. I read a news report guessing that Amazon may have to raise prices for Kindle downloads to be making money with the iPad debut.

 

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1958217,00.html

 

P.S. If iPad merged with Netflix for instant viewing, baby... I'd be in hog heaven. LOL

[Heather in Neverland]

Just to clarify: People keep saying that Kindle books are only on the Kindle, whereas the Sony books are on both the computer and the ereader, but that's misleading. Yes, you can instantly download your books onto your Kindle, but you can also load them onto your computer. You can read the Kindle book on the Kindle itself, on the computer, and on your iphone or itouch. I think it's up to five devices; we are currently using 4 (kindle, computer, iphone, itouch). And, you can back up your Kindle files just like any other computer file.

 

Not that I'm in love with the limiitations that are in place, mind you, but they are typical of digital media. The marketplace is going to take a while to sort out.

 

I can't get the wireless download here in Malaysia so that's what I do too...download it to my computer first then the kindle so it can not be taken from me! :D

[hornblower]

Why does one book need so many people to work on it? That just doesn't seem efficient or effective to me, especially in a time when so few adults read books and fewer still purchase them.

 

It takes that much to get a good quality product. Really!

And each person is working on a whole bunch of books, not just one.

 

It's the same when you watch the credits for movies - all the crew, the makeup, the costumes, the props, the electrical etc etc etc etc. You could just as easily say why does it take several hundred people who work behind the scenes to make a movie?

[Sputterduck]

I can't get the wireless download here in Malaysia so that's what I do too...download it to my computer first then the kindle so it can not be taken from me! :D

 

With the latest Kindles you can!

[RoughCollie]

You could just as easily say why does it take several hundred people who work behind the scenes to make a movie?

 

I used to work for a TV production company that produced documentaries and sitcoms. If everyone there worked a full 8-hour day, instead of wasting time, a lot fewer people would have been needed and the costs would have been lowered significantly.

 

I proved it. When I left, it took 2 full-time people and 1 part-time person to replace me. All I did was actually work diligently, effectively, and efficiently for every minute I was getting paid for, and for 15 hours a week I was not getting directly paid for (I was on salary).

 

The extra full-time person it took to do my job was needed only because the others did not put in a full day's work for a full day's pay.

Edited February 2, 2010 by RoughCollie

[sleepymommy]

:iagree: BTW, it looks like Amazon just got hit broadside with Apple's iPad. Who knows if this will phase out the Kindle? I'm an old fashioned book lover who has held out so far from buying any eBooks or eReaders -- but love the iPhone and iPod. Personally, I'm waiting to buy the iPad 2.0 -- once it comes out with Flash to surf. :D I love the iPhone apps, games, TV shows, movies, and my email is accessable with FB. The iPad would make it even better in ONE device. (But still sad it has no camera.) Whoever said the books on iTunes would be like $1.99 is nuts -- today on iTunes the audiobook for Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief runs $20. On Amazon -- the audiobook is $13 and Kindle version is $6. I read a news report guessing that Amazon may have to raise prices for Kindle downloads to be making money with the iPad debut.

 

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1958217,00.html

 

T

P.S. If iPad merged with Netflix for instant viewing, baby... I'd be in hog heaven. LOL

 

Check out this article on the possibility of a camera on the iPad.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/Horizons/2010/0202/Apple-iPad-shipping-with-a-camera-All-rumors-point-to-yes.

 

And the iPad's competitor supports Flash.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/Horizons/2010/0201/JooJoo-tablet-will-ship-soon-rival-Apple-iPad-CEO-says

 

I agree on the Netflix topic! That would make me want to do cartwheels!

[tex-mex]

Check out this article on the possibility of a camera on the iPad.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/Horizons/2010/0202/Apple-iPad-shipping-with-a-camera-All-rumors-point-to-yes.

 

And the iPad's competitor supports Flash.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/Horizons/2010/0201/JooJoo-tablet-will-ship-soon-rival-Apple-iPad-CEO-says

 

I agree on the Netflix topic! That would make me want to do cartwheels!

 

Thanks!

 

Read this tonight - check this out:

Prices will go higher for Kindle/Amazon eBooks:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100203/tc_nm/us_newscorp_amazon

[RegGuheert]

Read this tonight - check this out:

Prices will go higher for Kindle/Amazon eBooks:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100203/tc_nm/us_newscorp_amazon

Why stop at $15? Why not $20? How about $50?

 

Pretty soon the Rupert Murdochs of the world will find out why...