Homeschool "impostors"

[LG Gone Wild]

I never unschooled because I'm too lazy and - if I'm honest - not interested enough in my children. I have always enjoyed teaching and feel a great sense of responsibility for my children's education, but the unschoolers I have met have been so much more involved.

 

Say little Joey expresses an interest in trains. The unschooling parent heads to the library to get out train books, uses the books to point out words at the reading level of the child, spots the moment when the child wants to learn to read on his own and provides curriculum and teaching time, takes out some Great Railway Journeys videos and sets up geography projects, identifies an interest in a particular country and suggests learning a foreign language, gets Joey interested in the physics of steam, finds the local train timetable and uses it to teach telling the time, subtraction, etc., arranges a trip to a railway museum and (if Joey is old enough) talks the museum into letting him volunteer. Once he's volunteering, the parent spots that Joey wants to be able to calculate train times on the model railway and also suggests that they do some work on calculating with money so that Joey can help out with the raffle....

 

Classical Education is much easier.

 

Laura

 

Woman, you got that right!!

[hornblower]

It is a disservice to the child and a disservice to the community that will have to deal with the child when they are grown and have no usable education.

 

 

I keep typing & deleting responses to this thread because I just can't marshall my thoughts.

 

I just think that a) there is more than one way to be successful, and b) that there is a lot to be said for learning to love & being loved & cherished in your family.

 

I'm not suggesting that rigorous homeschooling is incompatible with being a loving human being! I am, however, rejecting the notion that these kids would absolutely be 'better off' in school. Maybe. Maybe not.

 

The squeegee kids on the local corner, and the panhandler outside my grocery store are all products of the local school system. Heck, most of the life "failures" we know are products of the school system since the hs populations are too small & too recent to really give us huge samples....

 

There is failure in many realms, and there are successes in many unconventional settings. If you asked me to choose between

 

1) a 14yo kid who can't read and doesn't know the times tables, but is kind and compassionate, loves their family, works hard at their 'thing' & has a sense of some self-driven purpose - even if that purpose is not something valued by our society

 

and

 

2) a 14yo kid who is getting top marks in a school but won't stand up for injustice because it might cause social fall-out, is busy trying to fit in & make contacts with the 'right' people who can help him in school and career, is so driven to outwardly succeed that all they care about are marks and scores and which sport would look better on a college application..... because their whole identity and that of the family is all tied up in the prestige of their intellectual achievements....

 

well, I know I'd rather have kid #1.

 

Yes, I know, these are extremes. :D

 

 

I just can't get too caught up in the hand wringing about a kid who is not reading or whatever at such & such an age. I guess deep down I still do believe that people are programmed to learn what they need, when they need it, that life doesn't have to be all linear & age segregated, that it can be messy & out of order, & that all those years 'lost' are not necessarily lost. They're just....different. Different paths, different interests, different skills.

 

I don't know. Maybe I'm not making any sense at all.....

[Jenny in GA]

 

Say little Joey expresses an interest in trains. The unschooling parent heads to the library to get out train books, uses the books to point out words at the reading level of the child, spots the moment when the child wants to learn to read on his own and provides curriculum and teaching time, takes out some Great Railway Journeys videos and sets up geography projects, identifies an interest in a particular country and suggests learning a foreign language, gets Joey interested in the physics of steam, finds the local train timetable and uses it to teach telling the time, subtraction, etc.,

 

 

I'm sure there are some people out there doing that type of thing.

 

However, in all the books/talks/forums/real-life conversations about unschooling I've seen, unschooling does not look at all like that.

 

In fact, most unschoolers themselves would say that is not unschooling -- it's what they would call "relaxed homeschooling."

 

Jenny

[Jenny in GA]

 

1) a 14yo kid who can't read and doesn't know the times tables, but is kind and compassionate, loves their family, works hard at their 'thing' & has a sense of some self-driven purpose - even if that purpose is not something valued by our society

 

and

 

2) a 14yo kid who is getting top marks in a school but won't stand up for injustice because it might cause social fall-out, is busy trying to fit in & make contacts with the 'right' people who can help him in school and career, is so driven to outwardly succeed that all they care about are marks and scores and which sport would look better on a college application..... because their whole identity and that of the family is all tied up in the prestige of their intellectual achievements....

 

well, I know I'd rather have kid #1.

 

Yes, I know, these are extremes. :D

 

 

I just can't get too caught up in the hand wringing about a kid who is not reading or whatever at such & such an age. I guess deep down I still do believe that people are programmed to learn what they need, when they need it, that life doesn't have to be all linear & age segregated, that it can be messy & out of order, & that all those years 'lost' are not necessarily lost. They're just....different. Different paths, different interests, different skills.

 

I don't know. Maybe I'm not making any sense at all.....

 

I guess for me, the answer would depend on what their "thing" or "self-driven purpose" was.

 

If it were playing an instrument very well, or writing and publishing books, or any number of other productive things, that's one thing. But playing World of Warcraft for six hours a day, or watching sitcom repeats for six hours (which are actual things that I know homeschool families to say their teens are doing) ... mmm, to me, that's very different. Obviously others would disagree.

 

 

Jenny

[LibraryLover]

I just can't get too caught up in the hand wringing about a kid who is not reading or whatever at such & such an age. I guess deep down I still do believe that people are programmed to learn what they need, when they need it, that life doesn't have to be all linear & age segregated, that it can be messy & out of order, & that all those years 'lost' are not necessarily lost. They're just....different. Different paths, different interests, different skills.

 

 

What's wrong with that? The most intelligent, most interesting and productive people I know are often the people who have forged 'messy' paths.

Further, I see no reason whatsoever for a 5 yr old, fi, to be brought to tears by inappropriate expectations (handwriting, copywork etc etc etc) in the name of 'rigorous'. It could be seen as soul and life-sucking, in fact.

 

I wish people could break free from lives that are meaningless, however they got there. (Wrong expectations, no expectations ...)

Edited September 2, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Laura Corin]

In fact, most unschoolers themselves would say that is not unschooling -- it's what they would call "relaxed homeschooling."

 

Jenny

 

... between parent-led and child-led education. If little Joey is making the running and the parent is helping him to fulfil his interests, then it's unschooling or (UK term) autonomous education. If the parent is telling the child what and when to learn, then it's not. Maybe the definition is different in the US.

 

I know a home educator whose children (both high functioning autistic) absolutely adore workbooks. They want very little input from their mother, just a steady stream of workbooks to devour. That's autonomous education - it's not about the materials used, but about who is leading whom.

 

Laura

[Jean in Newcastle]

I keep typing & deleting responses to this thread because I just can't marshall my thoughts.

 

I just think that a) there is more than one way to be successful, and b) that there is a lot to be said for learning to love & being loved & cherished in your family.

 

I'm not suggesting that rigorous homeschooling is incompatible with being a loving human being! I am, however, rejecting the notion that these kids would absolutely be 'better off' in school. Maybe. Maybe not.

 

The squeegee kids on the local corner, and the panhandler outside my grocery store are all products of the local school system. Heck, most of the life "failures" we know are products of the school system since the hs populations are too small & too recent to really give us huge samples....

 

There is failure in many realms, and there are successes in many unconventional settings. If you asked me to choose between

 

1) a 14yo kid who can't read and doesn't know the times tables, but is kind and compassionate, loves their family, works hard at their 'thing' & has a sense of some self-driven purpose - even if that purpose is not something valued by our society

 

and

 

2) a 14yo kid who is getting top marks in a school but won't stand up for injustice because it might cause social fall-out, is busy trying to fit in & make contacts with the 'right' people who can help him in school and career, is so driven to outwardly succeed that all they care about are marks and scores and which sport would look better on a college application..... because their whole identity and that of the family is all tied up in the prestige of their intellectual achievements....

 

well, I know I'd rather have kid #1.

 

Yes, I know, these are extremes. :D

 

 

I just can't get too caught up in the hand wringing about a kid who is not reading or whatever at such & such an age. I guess deep down I still do believe that people are programmed to learn what they need, when they need it, that life doesn't have to be all linear & age segregated, that it can be messy & out of order, & that all those years 'lost' are not necessarily lost. They're just....different. Different paths, different interests, different skills.

 

I don't know. Maybe I'm not making any sense at all.....

 

Thinking with my fingers here. . . Yes, character is important and work skills too. I saw kids in the Philippines (where school is not compulsory btw) who had learned from their parents to fish or farm or (in the case of the shanty kids) to beg. Many of these kids were happy and pretty successful in their form of life. This was true in our society in the past.

 

But - in our society, we've put a value on book-learning too. And it is pretty hard to make it in our society even as fisherman or farmers or carpenter etc. without some book-learning. Yes, you could learn (as I'm sure the Filipino kids have) to count enough money to make sure you were paid correctly. But I would argue that there is a higher basic literacy needed in math and reading in our society to make it above a subsistence level (and for comparison, most of these Filipino families were operating at only a subsistence level - that's why their kids were not in school.)

 

Ok - someone (LibraryLover?:D) is going to say that many unschoolers can and do learn enough to have basic literacy in math and reading. And I'm sure that many do. But - in our society esp. having only basic literacy in those subjects stunts your mental growth and handicaps you by shutting off many opportunities. Yes, people can and do learn some of these higher things as adults. And for those who have to do that because their parents did not teach them earlier, then I'm glad that is the case. But - I have taught basic skills to adults who did not have them as adults. It can be hard going because they don't have all those little building blocks of knowledge that makes it easier to make sense of what they are manipulating in numbers and words.

[angela in ohio]

1) a 14yo kid who can't read and doesn't know the times tables, but is kind and compassionate, loves their family, works hard at their 'thing' & has a sense of some self-driven purpose - even if that purpose is not something valued by our society

 

and

 

2) a 14yo kid who is getting top marks in a school but won't stand up for injustice because it might cause social fall-out, is busy trying to fit in & make contacts with the 'right' people who can help him in school and career, is so driven to outwardly succeed that all they care about are marks and scores and which sport would look better on a college application..... because their whole identity and that of the family is all tied up in the prestige of their intellectual achievements....

 

well, I know I'd rather have kid #1.

 

Yes, I know, these are extremes. :D

 

The "I just want them to be good people/ Godly" argument. I get this all the time the other way around: the assumption being that if my dc learn a lot, they must have not had time to learn how to be decent human beings or read the Bible, or that the fact of being educated somehow decays their moral fiber.

[hornblower]

The "I just want them to be good people/ Godly" argument. I get this all the time the other way around: the assumption being that if my dc learn a lot, they must have not had time to learn how to be decent human beings or read the Bible, or that the fact of being educated somehow decays their moral fiber.

 

I want to be clear that I'm not making this an either/or. :D

 

I DON'T see it as an either/or. There are plenty of people both in school & in homeschool who manage both + sports + a whole bunch of other things all at once. They're happy & doing what is good for them. Great!

 

I just think that there are other things to value in a person's life other than academic excellence. & I'm not an unschooler & I don't really know why I'm in this discussion at all but I do think that being human & being "successful" is a lot broader than being on grade level......

 

A long time ago I read a thing written by someone in defense of laziness - & it was actually a love letter to her brother, who was by all standard accounts a lazy layabout. But he was good, kind, always ready with a smile, never hurt anyone, ready to shoot the breeze with folks..... & as she grew older she realized how much she appreciated his essential zen like laziness :)

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I want to be clear that I'm not making this an either/or. :D

 

I DON'T see it as an either/or. There are plenty of people both in school & in homeschool who manage both + sports + a whole bunch of other things all at once. They're happy & doing what is good for them. Great!

 

I just think that there are other things to value in a person's life other than academic excellence. & I'm not an unschooler & I don't really know why I'm in this discussion at all but I do think that being human & being "successful" is a lot broader than being on grade level......

 

A long time ago I read a thing written by someone in defense of laziness - & it was actually a love letter to her brother, who was by all standard accounts a lazy layabout. But he was good, kind, always ready with a smile, never hurt anyone, ready to shoot the breeze with folks..... & as she grew older she realized how much she appreciated his essential zen like laziness :)

 

I'm with you 100%, Hornblower, as long as the kid turns out that way because of who he is and not because his parents denied him access to any other vision of his future.

[angela in ohio]

I just think that there are other things to value in a person's life other than academic excellence.

 

To me, it comes down to whether we are talking about academic excellence, or about giving a child the basic skills necessary to navigate life. The first is a take it or leave it type thing; the second just seems like something homeschool parents should provide.

 

I also think there is a huge difference between unschoolers who are following a specific philosophical decision about the method of education they use and the mothers who just don't do anything with their dc. I'm not an unschooler, but I feel bad for them when they are confused with those too self-absorbed, unconcerned, lazy, etc. to educate their dc after they chose to keep them out of school.

[hornblower]

I'm with you 100%, Hornblower, as long as the kid turns out that way because of who he is and not because his parents denied him access to any other vision of his future.

 

Well, I dunno about that.

 

Didn't we have a thread recently about telling (or not) parents about regrets about how we were raised?

 

I think it's always hard to tease out how much of what we are is because of how we were raised, what opportunities we had etc etc.

 

Can't we argue just as easily that there are students languishing in intense academic programs, doing what needs to be done because of intense family pressures when really, they want to be "someone" else? Their vision of their future is just as limited: you will go to this school & you will get grades & if you can't, we'll get you a tutor (or two or three) and you will succeed in this & become ______.

 

Isn't that so very common in mainstream life? Lots of people are what they are because they were denied other visions of future. We appease ourselves with the thought that 'at least they're productive', right? But at what cost? I think a lot of time these are the folks who are struggling emotionally & psychologically, who are prone to addictions, who lurch from personal crisis to crisis. They're not living their own life, they're following someone else's script.

 

 

This is starting to feel like the sort of discussion I should be having late at night with several bottles of wine on the table. :D

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Well, I dunno about that.

 

Didn't we have a thread recently about telling (or not) parents about regrets about how we were raised?

 

I think it's always hard to tease out how much of what we are is because of how we were raised, what opportunities we had etc etc.

 

Can't we argue just as easily that there are students languishing in intense academic programs, doing what needs to be done because of intense family pressures when really, they want to be "someone" else? Their vision of their future is just as limited: you will go to this school & you will get grades & if you can't, we'll get you a tutor (or two or three) and you will succeed in this & become ______.

 

Isn't that so very common in mainstream life? Lots of people are what they are because they were denied other visions of future. We appease ourselves with the thought that 'at least they're productive', right? But at what cost? I think a lot of time these are the folks who are struggling emotionally & psychologically, who are prone to addictions, who lurch from personal crisis to crisis. They're not living their own life, they're following someone else's script.

 

 

This is starting to feel like the sort of discussion I should be having late at night with several bottles of wine on the table. :D

 

LOL! I was just thinking the same as I began reading your post. About the wine and the time of day, I mean. I am such a on-the-one-hand-this and on-the-other-hand-that person that I love to discuss where all the ideologies will lead, find the holes in the theory...

 

except at 4:30 on a weekday. At 4:30 I am drooling in a corner for 5 minutes, trying to transition from homeschool mom to wife and cook before DH gets home.

 

I'll be back.

[Catherine]

I'll describe the situation. At the end of last summer I invited the members of our neighborhood homeschool group (the good news-in our small community, there are enough of us to form a group!) with family to a potluck picnic. I was amazed to get RSVPs for at least 30 people, but in the end, at least 2\3 of the attendees had children who were not even first grade age yet. Soooo...they are either homeschooling K or planning to homeschool in the future. I was a bit disappointed, but I wonder to what extent those with preschool age children actually publicly refer to themselves as homeschoolers. Any thoughts?

[angela in ohio]

I'll describe the situation. At the end of last summer I invited the members of our neighborhood homeschool group (the good news-in our small community, there are enough of us to form a group!) with family to a potluck picnic. I was amazed to get RSVPs for at least 30 people, but in the end, at least 2\3 of the attendees had children who were not even first grade age yet. Soooo...they are either homeschooling K or planning to homeschool in the future. I was a bit disappointed, but I wonder to what extent those with preschool age children actually publicly refer to themselves as homeschoolers. Any thoughts?

 

It's very common for people to "homeschool" preschool and then end up sending their dc to school. I just tend to assume now that 50% of the very passionate homeschool parents of 3 yos I meet (online or IRL) will not actually end up homeschooling.

 

One co-op we were in required parents of young children to intend to homeschool and not just be looking for activities for their preschooler. :001_smile:

[Tidbits of Learning]

It's very common for people to "homeschool" preschool and then end up sending their dc to school. I just tend to assume now that 50% of the very passionate homeschool parents of 3 yos I meet (online or IRL) will not actually end up homeschooling.

 

One co-op we were in required parents of young children to intend to homeschool and not just be looking for activities for their preschooler. :001_smile:

 

Our co-op requires preschoolers to have a school aged sibling in the program in order to attend.

[Gwenhwyfar]

Our co-op requires preschoolers to have a school aged sibling in the program in order to attend.

 

How do they define "school age"? In some places that would be 5...in some it would be 6... in others 7.. (I think even 8 is the 'mandatory' age in a few places)...

 

just curious.. because I do know someone who homeschools her 3 & 4 year old kids - and I've never thought of her as 'not homeschooling' (or an "imposter") because they're young. (She does plan to continue, as long as it continues to be the right thing for their family - but I'd never put that stipulation on it either.)

[Tidbits of Learning]

I think the whole argument of turning out a "good" child over an "educated" child is ludicrous. Why would I want to choose whether my child was good or educated? Wouldn't I want to encourage and foster an environment where both are achievable and attainable.

We are not in an undeveloped country. We should be expected to teach our children basic skills which in my opinion include reading, writing, and basic arithmetic.

I hope to bring up a child who is thoughtful, polite, well-spoken, and can read and write. The only time that it would be acceptable to leave off reading and writing was a few hundred years ago in this country.

I do believe it is a disservice to children to set them up to fail in life. If you can't read or write, what kind of job will you be able to procure? What kind of job would support a family without such necessary skills?

If a child isn't in the public school system or private school system and barring learning disabilities or physical handicaps, then said child should be being taught to read and write. I do think that a normal functioning child should be progressing in home school as well. They shouldn't be stagnant in their progression.

In my state, a child would have to test in to public school after being home schooled. They would have to be on level with peers to be put in their grade. There are so many families that I see whose children would not be able to go to school any where near their grade level that home school. I do think that if a parent falls behind or tries home school and is more about the social and political aspect of it then they should really look at their true motives.

I do not want to support my children for the rest of their lives. I want to give them the skills to support themselves. Without basic skills (academic included), they will fall back on society to support.

[Jenn in Mo]

I had a dad call me once asking how to go about homeschooling. I gave him the ins and outs of our state requirements before he interrupted and said that what he really wanted to know was how to pull his high school child out of school before he got kicked out and how to make it look like they homeschooled on paper instead of dropping out of school...you know, for job applications and stuff. :confused:

 

I told him I couldn't help him there.

 

But yeah. I've met at least one of those.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I had a dad call me once asking how to go about homeschooling. I gave him the ins and outs of our state requirements before he interrupted and said that what he really wanted to know was how to pull his high school child out of school before he got kicked out and how to make it look like they homeschooled on paper instead of dropping out of school...you know, for job applications and stuff. :confused:

 

I told him I couldn't help him there.

 

But yeah. I've met at least one of those.

 

Oh, that's another topic. Here in Indiana we've had a problem with "pushouts." That's what they call it when a public school system kicks out delinquents and label them as homeschoolers in order to keep averages up. Dropouts also make up a percentage of Hoosier "homeschoolers."

 

These people ain't helpin' nobody.

[KidsHappen]

I'll describe the situation. At the end of last summer I invited the members of our neighborhood homeschool group (the good news-in our small community, there are enough of us to form a group!) with family to a potluck picnic. I was amazed to get RSVPs for at least 30 people, but in the end, at least 2\3 of the attendees had children who were not even first grade age yet. Soooo...they are either homeschooling K or planning to homeschool in the future. I was a bit disappointed, but I wonder to what extent those with preschool age children actually publicly refer to themselves as homeschoolers. Any thoughts?

 

And yet a third class would be me. I still call myself a homeschooler even though I am no longer schooling any children at home. I did it for 15 years. It became part of my identity.

 

My SIL used to live with me when her oldest dd was still a toddler. I was already homeschooling my older kids. When her children were old enough she started homeschooling them as well. The only problem with that was that she worked full time and my brother (who is on disability) stayed home with the kids. Let's just say that my brother was not the best student himself and I thought to myself that there was no way this was going to work out. As far as I could tell, they had no curriculum or even a set plan of how to educate the kids. So one summer when my niece came to visit (probably around 4th grade), I sat her down and basically tested her to see where she was with the intention of helping her in the areas where she was lacking. Turns out she was right where she needed to be. She could read, write and she was on level in math plus knew tons of interesting science and history facts. From the outside it really looked like they were not schooling at all whereas apparently they were doing just fine.

 

I think trying to pin down exactly what a homeschooler is, is kind of like trying to pin down what a Christian is.

[hsmom3tn]

Say little Joey expresses an interest in trains. The unschooling parent heads to the library to get out train books, uses the books to point out words at the reading level of the child, spots the moment when the child wants to learn to read on his own and provides curriculum and teaching time, takes out some Great Railway Journeys videos and sets up geography projects, identifies an interest in a particular country and suggests learning a foreign language, gets Joey interested in the physics of steam, finds the local train timetable and uses it to teach telling the time, subtraction, etc., arranges a trip to a railway museum and (if Joey is old enough) talks the museum into letting him volunteer. Once he's volunteering, the parent spots that Joey wants to be able to calculate train times on the model railway and also suggests that they do some work on calculating with money so that Joey can help out with the raffle....

 

 

 

I'm sure there are some people out there doing that type of thing.

 

However, in all the books/talks/forums/real-life conversations about unschooling I've seen, unschooling does not look at all like that.

 

In fact, most unschoolers themselves would say that is not unschooling -- it's what they would call "relaxed homeschooling."

 

 

 

:iagree: I used to teach my kids that way, and I called it "unit studies".

 

For me Homeschool imposter applies to a few families I know. One family in particular that I see a lot, seem to float around the edge of the local home education community going to some events, all the while their eldest is in a church school and their youngest is in Nursery. They don't want to home educate but seem to want to be seen as the type that does.

 

There are a few other similar families with younger children around here that I can see going this way. its kind of like they would never really home educate but feel like they want to be part of our community because being very child led and a bit alternative is quite fashionable for middle class families at the moment.

 

:iagree: It's definitely the in-style thing to do right now.

 

I see more and more new families join our group each year and they usually don't last more than that one year or two. I think for many of them, they hadn't realized that there would be actual work invoved.

 

I'll describe the situation. At the end of last summer I invited the members of our neighborhood homeschool group (the good news-in our small community, there are enough of us to form a group!) with family to a potluck picnic. I was amazed to get RSVPs for at least 30 people, but in the end, at least 2\3 of the attendees had children who were not even first grade age yet. Soooo...they are either homeschooling K or planning to homeschool in the future. I was a bit disappointed, but I wonder to what extent those with preschool age children actually publicly refer to themselves as homeschoolers. Any thoughts?

 

It is common for people to homeschool their preschoolers. I think it might be a new thing, though, to actually label it "homeschooling".

[hsmom3tn]

Originally Posted by Dobela

The imposters give the rest of us a bad name. They are also the reason why schools and others want more regulations to be placed on homeschoolers.

 

 

I'm not one for policing either, but I will admit that this does worry me.

[Tidbits of Learning]

How do they define "school age"? In some places that would be 5...in some it would be 6... in others 7.. (I think even 8 is the 'mandatory' age in a few places)...

 

just curious.. because I do know someone who homeschools her 3 & 4 year old kids - and I've never thought of her as 'not homeschooling' (or an "imposter") because they're young. (She does plan to continue, as long as it continues to be the right thing for their family - but I'd never put that stipulation on it either.)

 

In our state you have to register at 7. However the first grade level at the co-op is the k/1st class. We are only allowed 10 in our preschool co-op class and it is only for kids with siblings in the "school" aged classes. The co-op is split into k/1st, 2nd/3rd, and 4th/5th then 6th-12th pick and choose classes on interest or need.

This is the quote from the site-

Preschool and nursery are provided only for families with school age children enrolled in (co-op name).

 

So the preschool and nursery are something offered so that those with school age kids can participate without having to find a sitter or worry about their younger kids. We all have to volunteer to teach. You can't teach with a toddler or preschool at your side. .

[Pamela H in Texas]

giving a child the basic skills necessary to navigate life.

 

To me, anything less than this is inappropriate assuming the child is capable of learning these skills. A parent is responsible to make sure it happens regardless of where or how the child is educated. When is less important. It doesn't bother me that there are 8yos not reading or 10yos struggling with multiplication facts. But no parent should assume they have longer than the 16-21 years we all generally have.

[Laurie4b]

I either knew this person when she was a child or the family I knew was very similar to the one you describe.

 

I certainly think it's possible to not be schooled/unschooled and still succeed in life. I do think it takes a certain go-getter personality type that not everyone possesses.

 

Tara

 

Not only a go-getter personality, but extra smarts.

[LibraryLover]

 

 

Ok - someone (LibraryLover?:D) is going to say that many unschoolers can and do learn enough to have basic literacy in math and reading. And I'm sure that many do.]

 

 

We are 'relaxed' hsers, so I won't try to speak for unschoolers. :D However, the older unschoolers I know don't have any issues learning the traditional 'stuff'.

 

From what I have observed, once unschoolers decide on a path, they have no trouble doing what they need to do.

[KidsHappen]

Oh, that's another topic. Here in Indiana we've had a problem with "pushouts." That's what they call it when a public school system kicks out delinquents and label them as homeschoolers in order to keep averages up. Dropouts also make up a percentage of Hoosier "homeschoolers."

 

These people ain't helpin' nobody.

 

I recently read an article that said TX has been doing the same thing.

[Jean in Newcastle]

You know that one of the difference between "real unschoolers" and "homeschool imposters" is the character of the parents. Real unschooling parents have a philosophy of empowering their kids to learn and discover. Homeschool imposters (by definition of the word imposters) are lazy and self serving. Which set of parents do you think are more likely to foster good character in their own kids? I say "more likely" because of course we've all heard of the kid who rises above all odds to great character and ability. And we've also heard of the kid with everything going for him who has made devastating choices.

[mama2cntrykids]

Soooo...they are either homeschooling K or planning to homeschool in the future. I was a bit disappointed, but I wonder to what extent those with preschool age children actually publicly refer to themselves as homeschoolers. Any thoughts?

 

Well, I will address the preschool age child part. I HS all three of my kiddos. Oldest is 4th grade, middle is 2nd grade and youngest is pre/k.

 

When anyone talks to dd4 about going to school soon or are you in preschool, etc, she says, "I homeschool!" It's true, she does. I don't force her by any means, she asks to do school. So, we do HOP and ETC and crafts, cooking, reading good books, talking about everything, parks, field trips, lots of outside time, etc. She loves it and is very happy to proclaim her education:D.

 

I'm not sure if that answer is what you're looking for, but I gave it a shot;).

[mama2cntrykids]

I keep typing & deleting responses to this thread because I just can't marshall my thoughts.

 

I just think that a) there is more than one way to be successful, and b) that there is a lot to be said for learning to love & being loved & cherished in your family.

 

I'm not suggesting that rigorous homeschooling is incompatible with being a loving human being! I am, however, rejecting the notion that these kids would absolutely be 'better off' in school. Maybe. Maybe not.

 

The squeegee kids on the local corner, and the panhandler outside my grocery store are all products of the local school system. Heck, most of the life "failures" we know are products of the school system since the hs populations are too small & too recent to really give us huge samples....

 

There is failure in many realms, and there are successes in many unconventional settings. If you asked me to choose between

 

1) a 14yo kid who can't read and doesn't know the times tables, but is kind and compassionate, loves their family, works hard at their 'thing' & has a sense of some self-driven purpose - even if that purpose is not something valued by our society

 

and

 

2) a 14yo kid who is getting top marks in a school but won't stand up for injustice because it might cause social fall-out, is busy trying to fit in & make contacts with the 'right' people who can help him in school and career, is so driven to outwardly succeed that all they care about are marks and scores and which sport would look better on a college application..... because their whole identity and that of the family is all tied up in the prestige of their intellectual achievements....

 

well, I know I'd rather have kid #1.

 

Yes, I know, these are extremes. :D

 

 

I just can't get too caught up in the hand wringing about a kid who is not reading or whatever at such & such an age. I guess deep down I still do believe that people are programmed to learn what they need, when they need it, that life doesn't have to be all linear & age segregated, that it can be messy & out of order, & that all those years 'lost' are not necessarily lost. They're just....different. Different paths, different interests, different skills.

 

I don't know. Maybe I'm not making any sense at all.....

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:Honey, I think you make perfect sense!! How do I know? I have one of those children who DOES NOT fit the mold. He is my challenge and I am amazed by him constantly! Is he learning many things the way "everybody" else is? NO! Is he learning? HECK YES!

 

It's so funny because I have one boy (ds9) who learns very traditionally. I have another boy (ds7) his totally blows traditional out of the water. I HS Ds7 very differently than ds9. It's just how it is. I struggled all last year with it and started struggling this year too. Then a light went on and it's changed a lot. Less stressful, more peace and he's LEARNING!

 

Sorry, that was WAAAY off topic. We're not unschoolers (though I'd love to, but struggle lol) but with my ds7, we're pretty relaxed and for him, it's right on!

[keptwoman]

... between parent-led and child-led education. If little Joey is making the running and the parent is helping him to fulfil his interests, then it's unschooling or (UK term) autonomous education. If the parent is telling the child what and when to learn, then it's not. Maybe the definition is different in the US.

 

I know a home educator whose children (both high functioning autistic) absolutely adore workbooks. They want very little input from their mother, just a steady stream of workbooks to devour. That's autonomous education - it's not about the materials used, but about who is leading whom.

 

Laura

Australia seems similar to the UK.

 

I guess for me, the answer would depend on what their "thing" or "self-driven purpose" was.

 

If it were playing an instrument very well, or writing and publishing books, or any number of other productive things, that's one thing. But playing World of Warcraft for six hours a day, or watching sitcom repeats for six hours (which are actual things that I know homeschool families to say their teens are doing) ... mmm, to me, that's very different. Obviously others would disagree.

 

 

Jenny

Yep.

 

 

You know that one of the difference between "real unschoolers" and "homeschool imposters" is the character of the parents. Real unschooling parents have a philosophy of empowering their kids to learn and discover. Homeschool imposters (by definition of the word imposters) are lazy and self serving. Which set of parents do you think are more likely to foster good character in their own kids? I say "more likely" because of course we've all heard of the kid who rises above all odds to great character and ability. And we've also heard of the kid with everything going for him who has made devastating choices.

I think this is really the crux of it. The parent that I am thinking of is not only not empowering her children, but by failing to help them be literate and numerate, standing in the way of their every being able to acheive the desires for their lives that they have expressed. If a school were doing this we would be all up in arms, I don't see how the parent doing it is any different. I do feel strongly as homeschoolers that we have a responsibility to educate our children to the best of their ability, whether we choose to do it formally or informally. Parental choice does not trump a childs right to an education. I think it's a travesty that parents can stand in the way of their children being skilled to lead productive lives.

 

The unschoolers that I know have done a lot to ensure that their children are able to follow their passions.

 

If a child is not literate or numerate then life is going to be a lot harder, and sure many people come from desperate starts like that to do great things, but it takes a great deal of drive and determination to do so.

Edited September 3, 2010 by keptwoman

[naturegirl7]

I never unschooled because I'm too lazy and - if I'm honest - not interested enough in my children. I have always enjoyed teaching and feel a great sense of responsibility for my children's education, but the unschoolers I have met have been so much more involved.

 

Say little Joey expresses an interest in trains. The unschooling parent heads to the library to get out train books, uses the books to point out words at the reading level of the child, spots the moment when the child wants to learn to read on his own and provides curriculum and teaching time, takes out some Great Railway Journeys videos and sets up geography projects, identifies an interest in a particular country and suggests learning a foreign language, gets Joey interested in the physics of steam, finds the local train timetable and uses it to teach telling the time, subtraction, etc., arranges a trip to a railway museum and (if Joey is old enough) talks the museum into letting him volunteer. Once he's volunteering, the parent spots that Joey wants to be able to calculate train times on the model railway and also suggests that they do some work on calculating with money so that Joey can help out with the raffle....

 

Classical Education is much easier.

 

Laura

 

Thank you for this post.

 

I think that traditional homeschooling and unschooling are vasty different but it truly seems to me that many people don't understand what exactly unschooling is. It was originally the term used to refer to homeschoolers. Un-schooled just meant you didn't go to school. Not that you weren't recieving an education. To lump unschoolers into a group and state they are "imposters" definitely ruffles my feathers.

 

Yes,perhaps there are the occasional few who claim to homeschool or unschool but do not engage their child at all - well in those cases, alot more is goign on than just the schooling issue.

 

 

Unschooling, is not a lack of education - but a lack of formalized, coerced. parent led instruction. Instead it's child led and many kids really thrive in that situation. Parents who practice child led education work really really hard to make sure their kid is stimulated, active, and learning. it is NOT laziness to unschool. It may not be a formal curriculum with learning this lesson on this day sort of approach - but it is harder, cuz you are trying to provide books, activities, trips, stimulation on a specific topic of interest, while working key skills into it as imbedded learning. As a whole, it is truly imbedded learning and incidental learning at its best, which is the easiest type of learning to master and. most important, to retain.

 

We have unschooled DS until recently, and even now we are really, really relaxed. *I* need the structure of a curriculum to springboard off - not DS. He does best when he is not reined in actually. *I* like the idea of classical education but know in my heart that full blown classical ed would NOT work for him. But I work FT outside the home and I just don't have nearly enough time to dedicate to unschooling him any more. I need the "cheats" like books and activity guides with stuff all compiled for me. Makes my research a lot easier and shorter!

 

Makes me sad though cuz unschooling worked REALLY well for him - I never once taught him anything in the formal sense - but he is an incrediby passionate little sponge and is brilliant. He is now 5 but well beyond that honestly - literally taught himself to read at 2.5, his grasp of Greek mythology and Egyptian history is astounding, he loves spaces and watches documentaries on Stephen Hawkings for fun, he loves reading Daddy's Cross Section A&P books and knows the human body and its systems better than half my colleagues at work! He LOVES books and documentaries and retains so much knowledge from both. He learns for the sheer joy of learning - which is just awesome to me.

Honestly all the "unschooled" kids I know - they all have this amazing internal drive to learn, this love of learning that is super intense, and all are quite bright to darn brilliant. The kids who would be labeled as Learning Disabled in traditional schooling (including my DS who could easily be diagnosed ADHD), they also seem to thrive and excell - it is learning on their terms and in the way which they learn best. It is individualized to the max, which translates to great success.

 

No, it is not cookie cutter education, nor is it easy - but the results are, more often than not, amazing. Even now, we kinda bounce into the unschooly realm for certain subjects. I have ordered some curriculum based upon recommendations from here and I love our curriculums. But I use them really loosely and am still totally following DS's lead on things.

I tailor everything to fit DS's needs and interests. If he learns best about dinos by watchign Discovery channel documentaries together, reading books together, and playing with toy dinos - that is exactly what we do. If he learns about nouns best by watching a cute educational cartoon and playing the game and then reading with me and picking out nouns as we go - cool! If he had no interest in nouns that would be cool with me too. But he does, so we watch and play Pendemonium, play Madlibs, and read read read.

 

I go out of my way to find stuff that will spark an interest or fuel that tiny spark once it starts. For example his love of egypt led to him finding this awesome egyptian math game that requires addition, subtraction, and multiplication. He could already count to 100, but refused to add (unless it suited him LOL). But he loved this game that we'd sit and do together. Once I told him that he'd be able to do it on his own if he practiced addition and subtraction - the kid was BEGGING to learn math. Okeydokey! Let's learn math! Sure I could have pushed last year, cuz I knew he was capable of doing it. But it would have resulted in him disliking or hating math and the time spent learning it. Now it is on his terms and he love love loves our math time.

 

 

Kids really do learn at their own pace and in their own way. All the formalized instruction in the world can't make that "light bulb" moment occur any faster - not if the child isn't ready to digest, process, and master that info. Sometimes it is the step back, the hands on exploration, that causes the "light bulb" moment.

 

And the 'imposter' statement is just rude and unfair...Might as well say a visual learner is a not as good as and is a learning imposter compared to an auditory learner. Both are valid learning styles and neither in more "right" - except in terms of what is right for each individual.

Edited September 3, 2010 by naturegirl7

[keptwoman]

And the 'imposter' statement is just rude and unfair...Might as well say a visual learner is a not as good as and is a learning imposter compared to an auditory learner. Both are valid learning styles and neither in more "right" - except in terms of what is right for each individual.

But you see, to me the statement is not about unschoolers, as Laura described and as is my understanding, but about NONE schoolers. Quite different, I am in awe of unschooling parents, like Laura I'm far too lazy.

 

I also completely agree with you about a lot more going on with those people than lack of education, perhaps not all of them, but the ones I know, lack of parenting comes to mind.

[NavyWifeandMommy]

a little late in the game but I did know am family that did lie and say they homeschooled. they did it because their child kept getting in trouble at school and skipping. they were getting threaten by the school to have the police involved and shortley after that mom called up and withdrew her child from the school and say they were homeschooling. While I never went to their house I will be money that curricula was never bought. They did it to stay out of trouble and of course they lived in a state that has no regulations what so ever over homeschooling. Because of this family my husband says that every state should have homeschoolers register and do yearly portfolios or testing. He says that if they families are truely homeschooling then they shouldn't have nothing to worry about. I think he is right. I think all states should have some time of regulations like the letter of intent and yearly portfoilios.

[angela in ohio]

I think that traditional homeschooling and unschooling are vasty different but it truly seems to me that many people don't understand what exactly unschooling is. It was originally the term used to refer to homeschoolers. Un-schooled just meant you didn't go to school. Not that you weren't recieving an education. To lump unschoolers into a group and state they are "imposters" definitely ruffles my feathers.

 

I wouldn't worry about getting too ruffled. Many posters have already made the distinction between unschooling and a lack of learning. Most homeschoolers I have met over the years have known the difference.

 

I would hope that what you have done so far with a 5 yo would resemble unschooling: less structure, more self-motivated learning. That is entirely appropriate for the young age. :001_smile:

 

You might be suprised to learn that it can be offensive to those who unschool to say that you unschool certain subjects or spend a certain amount of time unschooling, while still carrying a full curriculum load. We have had that conversation many times over the years on this board. :001_smile: My unschool friends prefer a distinction between "relaxed" and "unschool."

Edited September 3, 2010 by angela in ohio

[QueenCat]

 

The squeegee kids on the local corner, and the panhandler outside my grocery store are all products of the local school system. Heck, most of the life "failures" we know are products of the school system since the hs populations are too small & too recent to really give us huge samples....

 

 

 

To me, these kids are products of poor home environments. Schools generally can't do much with children whose parents don't support them. Sometimes, kids overcome the odds but you can't blame the schools when the parents don't do their part. My kids went to great public schools prior to homeschooling. The kids that struggled the most were those who had uninvolved parents. The school did so much to try to help, with before and after school tutoring, counseling, parent educations, etc. Sometimes it worked but unless the parents step up in some way, it is very hard for even the best schools/teachers to succeed.

[cathmom]

We have unschooled DS until recently, and even now we are really, really relaxed. *I* need the structure of a curriculum to springboard off - not DS. He does best when he is not reined in actually. *I* like the idea of classical education but know in my heart that full blown classical ed would NOT work for him.

 

Makes me sad though cuz unschooling worked REALLY well for him - I never once taught him anything in the formal sense - He is now 5... But I use them really loosely and am still totally following DS's lead on things.

I tailor everything to fit DS's needs and interests.

 

 

Wow. He's 5. What else would you be doing with him than following his lead and his interests? WTM doesn't even start with anything really until age 6.

[Tress]

Wow. He's 5. What else would you be doing with him than following his lead and his interests? WTM doesn't even start with anything really until age 6.

 

Right! :D

 

Most homeschoolers I know around me unschool.

I have never called myself an unschooler, I do not agree with the whole idea behind it, but there is no difference in what we do with our <5yo kids. And surprise, surprise.....all the *involved* parents I know, who will send their children to public school without a second thought, are also doing the same (reading aloud, following their child's interests, going to the zoo/park/library/museum etc).

 

Around here, there is quiet a divide between unschoolers and homeschoolers-who-have-a-different-philosophy, so switching from unschooling to 'using a curriculum in a relaxed way' would get you considered an unschool failure, not an unschool expert ;).

[Jean in Newcastle]

But the "homeschool imposters" that are being discussed here are often not involved parents. They are ignoring their kids and are often not even interacting with them. There was a big to-do on a thread a couple of months ago because someone commented on a family that did not interact with their baby. People could not imagine that really happening on a continual basis.

 

But it does happen. There are kids I have taught who never had a book read to them - even a board book or a picture book outside of what they might get in an institutional setting. I taught an American teen who did not even know basic words like "intersection" even though he lived a half a block from one because the adults in his life did not label things and talk about them. Consequently that teen had a huge difficulty even reading and understanding the driver's ed manual that I was helping him with. He did not have learning disabilities but a poor homelife that was devoid of all books, pictures on the walls etc. They did have a t.v. in every room, but obviously that did not give him what he needed. This teen was "homeschooled" on paper but not in reality. (And he did not have learning disabilities. I know that for a fact as his teacher. And with good input he started to do very well.)

 

The other thing to remember is that what is good hard work for a preschooler is not good hard work for an older child. You can take both to the zoo and learn a lot but you (or the child) have to actually put some thought into it in the case of the older child while with the younger one you can just sit back and let it happen. In some cases, these were involved parents at a younger age but have not kept up with the continuing needs of their children as they have grown. It bothers me that people do not respect children's brains enough to see that they can learn so much more than we give them credit for - whether they are learning at home or in an institutional setting of some kind.

[Tress]

The other thing to remember is that what is good hard work for a preschooler is not good hard work for an older child. You can take both to the zoo and learn a lot but you (or the child) have to actually put some thought into it in the case of the older child while with the younger one you can just sit back and let it happen. In some cases, these were involved parents at a younger age but have not kept up with the continuing needs of their children as they have grown. It bothers me that people do not respect children's brains enough to see that they can learn so much more than we give them credit for - whether they are learning at home or in an institutional setting of some kind.

 

Jean, I'm reading this thread in linear mode (the other modes really confuse me) so I do not know if you wrote this in response to me or not. I'm going to respond anyway ;).

 

I totally agree with you on what you wrote and especially the part I quoted. That's why I was talking about *involved* parents and about children <5yo. Most unschoolers around me are radical unschoolers and they either *stay* in the 'look how nice, we made a bird house and went to the zoo'-mode with their older children, or they go the 'you want to play video games for 8+ hours a day? Sure, go right ahead. You do not want to brush your teeth (for years)? Sure, no problem'-route :001_huh:.

 

I still would not call them 'imposters' and I also do not feel it is my task to do anything about it, but they sure make me feel uncomfortable as I know I will be judged, at least partially, based on their ways of homeschooling (homeschooling is very very rare here and the unschoolers are very vocal).

[angela in ohio]

I have never called myself an unschooler, I do not agree with the whole idea behind it, but there is no difference in what we do with our <5yo kids. And surprise, surprise.....all the *involved* parents I know, who will send their children to public school without a second thought, are also doing the same (reading aloud, following their child's interests, going to the zoo/park/library/museum etc).

 

Around here, there is quiet a divide between unschoolers and homeschoolers-who-have-a-different-philosophy, so switching from unschooling to 'using a curriculum in a relaxed way' would get you considered an unschool failure, not an unschool expert ;).

 

:iagree:

[Jean in Newcastle]

Jean, I'm reading this thread in linear mode (the other modes really confuse me) so I do not know if you wrote this in response to me or not. I'm going to respond anyway ;).

 

I totally agree with you on what you wrote and especially the part I quoted. That's why I was talking about *involved* parents and about children <5yo. Most unschoolers around me are radical unschoolers and they either *stay* in the 'look how nice, we made a bird house and went to the zoo'-mode with their older children, or they go the 'you want to play video games for 8+ hours a day? Sure, go right ahead. You do not want to brush your teeth (for years)? Sure, no problem'-route :001_huh:.

 

I still would not call them 'imposters' and I also do not feel it is my task to do anything about it, but they sure make me feel uncomfortable as I know I will be judged, at least partially, based on their ways of homeschooling (homeschooling is very very rare here and the unschoolers are very vocal).

 

I do know involved unschooling parents and involved Montessori homeschool parents (this is child led, so shares some characteristics but not all). I wouldn't call them homeschool imposters at all. But uninvolved ones? Yea, I would call them that simply because the state is giving them permission to school their children even if it is by other methods and if the end result isn't schooling them then they are misrepresenting themselves. Now I'm talking in terms here of categorizing things on paper or screen, not on walking up to someone, slapping them across the face with a dueling glove and crying "You imposter!"

Edited September 3, 2010 by Jean in Newcastle

[Tress]

But uninvolved ones? Yea, I would call them that simply because the state is giving them permission to school their children even if it is by other methods and if the end result isn't schooling them then they are misrepresenting themselves.

 

I understand.

The situation here is different. The law is not giving us permission to *school* our kids at home, legally homeschooling doesn't even exist. We do have a ..... I think you would call it ..'religious exemption' to not enrol our kids at a public school. Whatever we do after that is up to us. But the more uninvolved homeschoolers we have, the larger the chance the government will step in and that will not be good (shudder), hence my fear.

 

Now I'm talking in terms here of categorizing things on paper or screen, not on walking up to someone, slapping them across the face with a dueling glove and crying "You imposter!"

:lol:

[newyorka]

q

[SweetMissMagnolia]

never heard of homeschool "imposters"....unschoolers maybe.....goodness I guess there are some out there who don't do any type of education.....never really thought about it though.....all the homeschoolers I know are legit...... :001_huh:

[LibraryLover]

Old threads being bumped is interesting.

 

But now I am thinking that Homeschool Impostors must be the same folks who buy ice cream, shrimp, & steak with their food stamps.

[Snowfall]

I've also known those who claim to be homeschooling, but really use the dc as babysitters.

 

I was reading through the thread thinking I didn't know of any "fake" homeschoolers, when I got to your post and remembered that I do know someone who did this for a year or two. To be fair, the kid had been kicked out of one ps and had serious discipline problems, so I know his parents were very overwhelmed and likely just had no idea what to do with him, but that's really no excuse for making a 13yo boy your weekday nanny to your 2yo. How is any learning supposed to get done like that?!?

[Peela]

My education department moderator has told me horror stories of families who do this- pull their kids out of school because of bullying issues usually...and then just dont have a clue how to homeschool...so they dont do anything. They want someone else to fix the issue. They literally have no books in the house, no "learning environment" whatsoever- and she cops hostility for trying to help them within her job description because they want her to homeschool their kids! Lots of ignorance out there.

 

I also know people IRL who have gone for very long periods of time with a wide age range of kids, not doing any school, because of an overwhelmed mum/various continual life crises which after a while seem like more of a lifestyle approach than misfortune. The mum would come to various classes and complain every week for years about how she never could seem to get around to schoolwork. I believe that did eventually change.

However I do know that those kids are very good at certain traditional skills like cooking and sewing, so perhaps in the bigger picture, no harm was done and one could consider those years "unschooling years".

[Tree House Academy]

I had a conversation a couple years ago that I suddenly remembered and thought would be interesting to discuss here:

 

It was with a distant in-law I had just met, who had homeschooled for years, and whose kids were grown.

 

She had taken her kids out of school back when homeschooling wasn't as popular as it is now, and she was talking about how she started the first homeschool support group in her town, etc.

 

She said, "It was interesting, though ... as I began to meet with other homeschooling families, it became clear there were two different groups: the Real Homeschoolers, and the Impostors."

 

She said that the Impostors weren't really homeschooling: they said they were, and they went to homeschool park days and filled out paperwork saying they were homeschooling, but they weren't really doing the work. It was just an excuse to allow their kids to be truant.

 

I asked her if it was possible it didn't seem like they were homeschooling, since one can't be observing a family 24-7. She insisted that it was very clear to many people that these "impostors" weren't truly homeschooling, but were just "skipping school with the family's blessing" and calling themselves homeschoolers.

 

Anyway, I suddenly thought of this today and thought it was an interesting comment.

 

Has anyone ever heard of this before?

Have you ever suspected somebody was a "homeschooling impostor"?

Do you think she meant unschoolers, and they just seemed like impostors to her?

Whether you've met them or not, do you think there are people who "pretend" to homeschool just to be truant?

Do you think that other people (non-homeschoolers) suspect than many homeschoolers are really just truant?

 

 

Have fun! ;)

 

Jenny

http://beanmommyandthethreebeans.blogspot.com/

 

 

Yes. My mother-in-law is 68 and she was a school teacher in her early 40's through early 60's. She saw this "imposter" thing happen a lot. Generally, it was a family was a child who missed too many days to pass on to the next grade, or a child whose parents just didn't want to bring them, or a child who was in trouble a lot and the parents were pressed to "do something." Many times they would pull the child out and then not school them at all. My MIL told horror stories about how the kids would come back to school the following year and be obviously very behind. She actually had this concern when we started homeschooling. Apparently being an educator in the late 80's makes one NUTS! LOL