Question for Christians

[TXMary2]

I am not sure where to start. My mother and her boyfriend live together and have for 14 years. I said something early on to them and then dropped it. Truly, it doesn't bother me because it has nothing to do with me and isn't my business. My kids know they live together and they know it is a sin. They also know it isn't any worse of a sin than them disobeying me or me saying a curse word. So, to us, it isn't something we need to dwell on or think about. We love them both and I understand my mother's worldly reasons for not wanting to marry.

 

The boyfriend became a Christian last year and was baptized about 8 months ago. He reads the Bible regularly, goes to church, tithes, volunteers and attends a home bible study. My mom attended church with him in the begining, but let me just clarify that she is a new ager, "God is a genie in a bottle to answer my prayers the way I want them answered" kind of believer. She believes in God, but not the Bible. My mom stopped attending after several months because she felt judged by the church because the Pastor confronted them about living together. I feel the pastor feels he is just doing his job and letting them know. So, my mom stopped attending and her boyfriend has continued going and has been in visible positions as a greeter, passing the basket and volunteering for service at events. Recently, it came up again that they aren't married and now the boyfriend is feeling really pressured and disappointed and I am concerned that he will let PEOPLE affect his newfound salvation. Essentially, the church told him he needed to move out. He is disabled and only recieves about $600 a month disability so it wouldn't be easy for him to move out. The church knows his financial situation and they found him a room to rent-- FROM A FEMALE. He said thanks but no thanks and that he doesn't want to start his new christian life doing something that would cause my mother tremendous pain. Also, I am struggling a little bit with how renting a room from a female is any less of an appearance of sin than living with my mother???

 

All that said, I understand that the pastor thinks he is doing the right thing by confronting the boyfriend, but I think giving him some sort of ultimatum or telling him that he MUST move out in order to stay in the church is just outright SHAMEFUL. Am I wrong? Certainly the pastor knows that in God's eyes all sin is equal and if you are going to give one church member ultimatums about his sin, then you must do the same with everyone else. I think the church has adopted the worldy idea of different levels of sin. Society says (and my flesh would certainly agree) that a child molester is a worse sinner than a guy who drives like a menace or worse than someone who has s*x before marriage, but the Bible says it is all equally wrong.

 

I attend this church and have for about the last year. Actually, this church is only a little over a year old. It is a Baptist church if that helps. Because I attend and I enjoy the services I am now struggling and wondering if I should talk to the pastor about the hard line he is taking. He has recently gone through a "transformation" himself and is now really bent on "living christian lives" and talking about not worrying about offending people, but just doing what is right. I DO understand that, but I am not liking how it is looking right now. I might just have to be OK with butting out and if I really can't let it go I could always find a different church, but honestly I don't want to be a church hopper. I went to this church because the pastor is homeschool friendly and the church we were at for the four years prior, was not.

 

Any words of wisdom out there??

[Wyndie]

That would bother me too. I don't think you should butt out just b/c it's family, I think the pastor needs to see the inconsistency of what he's saying/doing. He is badgering a new believer imo. He may not realize how he's coming across and is just so zealous at this time that he's not seeing clearly.

 

That's a tough situation to be in, but I think you need to speak up to the pastor. Church hopping is a pain for sure but if he's going to be inconsistent like that, I wouldn't feel right staying there. There are other churches out there where people are not badgered about their sin, just lovingly guided out of it.

[dangermom]

A couple of things: purposefully continuing in sin--choosing sin--is different than the sins we all commit every day because we are fallen human beings and we can't help making mistakes. Choosing to sin in order to 'help' someone (by continuing to live together) is not actually helping them, from a Christian perspective.

 

This is a really tough situation and you all have my sympathy, but at the same time, a person looking for salvation cannot also continue to choose to live in a sinful way and expect to be able to overlook that. It's the whole serving God and mammon thing. If someone was purposefully choosing to habitually engage in other sorts of sin (honesty, anger, etc.) it would be the same.

 

So I don't think it's inconsistent of the pastor to say something. I don't know much about the Baptist faith--I'm not even a Protestant--and I wouldn't want to tell anyone not to come to church any more. But there you go.

Edited December 5, 2009 by dangermom

[Paintedlady]

As far as adressing everyone as a whole about their sins, it sounds like that's what your pastor is doing. If he's condoning lying, cheating, speeding, etc... while calling your mom's boyfriend out then he's being selective, but I kind of doubt that's the case.

 

We as Christians, and especially clergy, should be holding each other accountable for our actions. Sometimes that means calling each other to repentance. That doesn't mean that his sin is worse, but just as we wouldn't let other sins go by unnoticed, neither should this one.

 

I think your pastor is 100% correct in telling him that what he's doing is wrong. If he were merely renting a room from your mother, with no other relationship ties, that would be different, and I can't believe you need to have the difference pointed out to you.

[TXMary2]

A couple of things: purposefully continuing in sin--choosing sin--is different than the sins we all commit every day because we are fallen human beings and we can't help making mistakes. Choosing to sin in order to 'help' someone (by continuing to live together) is not actually helping them, from a Christian perspective.

 

 

 

 

Isn't most sin "purposeful?" We as christians know right from wrong and the sins we all commit everyday are because we choose not to do or say the right thing. Sin is sin- applying the word "purposeful" just seems to apply a level to it. I have known this man for 14 years, he loves my mother and he would like to marry her, but she does not want to marry for several reasons- none of which have to do with how she feels about him as she loves him as well. He is a new christian and I don't think being so harsh with him is very christian like. When I was a new christian I had TWO people tell me to leave my boyfriend (now my husband) because he wasn't a christian. So, because I chose to marry him knowing we were unequally yoked we had quite a few years of misery and problems. However, I was faithful and prayed and prayed and we have a wonderful marriage, he is a christian now and is a wonderful father. What if I had left him? Frankly, I know a few christian men who are big jerks, but because they are christians they would have been a better choice than my husband? I don't know, I just think some grace is needed in this situation with my mom's boyfriend.

[TXMary2]

I think your pastor is 100% correct in telling him that what he's doing is wrong. If he were merely renting a room from your mother, with no other relationship ties, that would be different, and I can't believe you need to have the difference pointed out to you.

 

Telling him he wrong is one thing, telling him to shape up or ship out of the church is quite another. Also, renting a room from a female is still a single man living with a single woman and gives an appearance of "wrong." So, no there is no difference. Certainly you can see how that situation would bring up temptations and possibly open another door for more sin.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Yes all sin is purposeful in that it involves our volition. But if I choose to lose my temper, then confess my sin and get right with God, I am back in fellowship (a right relationship) with God.

 

In one sense, I suppose if your mom's boyfriend sleeps with her, then confesses his sin, he is right with God. If he chose to have a totally chaste relationship with your mom in the same house it would be fine too. Think about how many men throughout history have had live-in female housekeepers or have lived in a boarding house with women etc. (You would still have the appearance of impropriety. I suppose it would depend on if people could trust him to be honest). But the point here is that they are living as a married couple but aren't a married couple.

 

Another solution would be for him to propose to her - that is if your Mom would accept that.

[My3Boys]

A couple of things: purposefully continuing in sin--choosing sin--is different than the sins we all commit every day because we are fallen human beings and we can't help making mistakes. Choosing to sin in order to 'help' someone (by continuing to live together) is not actually helping them, from a Christian perspective.

 

This is a really tough situation and you all have my sympathy, but at the same time, a person looking for salvation cannot also continue to choose to live in a sinful way and expect to be able to overlook that. It's the whole serving God and mammon thing. If someone was purposefully choosing to habitually engage in other sorts of sin (honesty, anger, etc.) it would be the same.

 

So I don't think it's inconsistent of the pastor to say something. I don't know much about the Baptist faith--I'm not even a Protestant--and I wouldn't want to tell anyone not to come to church any more. But there you go.

 

:iagree:

[Dobela]

Hebrews 10:26-27 (New International Version)

 

 

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

 

Once we know about sin, we are to work hard at leaving sin behind. You would not tell a murderer that after being saved that it would be acceptable to continue murdering. It is also not acceptable for a person to knowingly continue living in an adulterous situation after being saved as well.

 

Also, the pastor is right, and doing as scripture teaches us. We are to lovingly confront another Christian and point out their sins so they stop them.

 

Galatians 6 1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.

 

I am assumming that the man is having sex with the woman in the house. If they are not married, that is sin. Knowing it is a sin, and continuing to chose this sin is not acceptable to God. Renting a room from a woman is not sinful, unless sex or other sins begin. If your mom's boyfriend is serious about his Christianity, then he needs to move out until they are either married or the relationship ends. It doesn't mean he loves her any less, it just means that God and his word are where they should be- first- in his life.

[Old Dominion Heather]

I think the pastor should lay off telling the guy to move out. I guess the real issue is whether mom and her boyfriend are sleeping together. If they are not, then I don't see that he has any grounds to tell him to change living arrangements. If they ARE CURRENTLY, not just in the past, then I think telling the brother that he is in sin is the correct way to proceed.

 

But I would also take the man at his word if he says that they are not sinning by continuing to have sex.

[joannqn]

A couple of things: purposefully continuing in sin--choosing sin--is different than the sins we all commit every day because we are fallen human beings and we can't help making mistakes.

 

:iagree:

 

 

I think these three articles may help.

 

The first one is a LONG discourse about Romans 6, 7, 8, which cannot be taken individually.

 

The second is about church discipline.

The third article covers the Hebrews 10 scripture previous mentioned. It talks about 5 warnings; the fourth one is discussed in Hebrews 10.

 

 

Finally, thank you for asking your question here. I needed something to light a fire under me to go looking at the Bible more in depth again. I'm looking forward to reading these three articles in more depth...when I don't have a screaming baby in the room wanting my attention.

[TXMary2]

OK- points taken regarding sin. Regarding the harshness and ultimatum from the pastor I still think it is not nice. Again, love the sinner, hate the sin. The pastor has said he cannot enter the church if he continues to live with my mother. Where is the grace? Where is the loving guidance? As for the s*x, I haven't asked, but both he and my mother are disabled and it would take quite an effort for them to still be having s*x. It also isn't something I WANT to picture- lol- so maybe I am being naive, but I think at this point it is companionship and not all that sexual.

[Wyndie]

OK- points taken regarding sin. Regarding the harshness and ultimatum from the pastor I still think it is not nice. Again, love the sinner, hate the sin. The pastor has said he cannot enter the church if he continues to live with my mother. Where is the grace? Where is the loving guidance? As for the s*x, I haven't asked, but both he and my mother are disabled and it would take quite an effort for them to still be having s*x. It also isn't something I WANT to picture- lol- so maybe I am being naive, but I think at this point it is companionship and not all that sexual.

 

 

This is what I was thinking but didn't state well. Making someone leave the church over sin is well... I don't know, not right. Grace forgives. No one is perfect. So should the pastor tell those who have a habit of yelling in anger that they too have to leave the church? I realize letting two people who appear to be shacked up together goes against the Baptist church beliefs but to kick them out? How will they win his heart to a loving God if he gets booted out for not doing what the pastor says? I don't know, there something weird to me about the way the pastor is approaching it.

 

My gma lived with a man for a few years, older guy, nothing sexual. They were sharing rent b/c it was too expensive to live alone. People assumed they were sleeping together but they were not, my mom asked. :D Just like people assume your mom and this guy are sleeping together (whether they are or not), they would assume the same if he moved in to rent-share with some other woman.

[joannqn]

It is a really complicated situation. I do not think that there is a black and white answer for this.

 

The state would recognize their relationship as a marriage, so I would see that the church could also recognize it as well...and treat the situation as one in which one partner has become a believer. However, it sounds like your mother and the boyfriend do not recognize their relationship as a marriage so that kind of rules that out.

 

In one way, I do agree with you: the church could and should extend grace to the new believer, and let the Holy Spirit convict him on what to do with the situation. If the church shows him grace in this situation, helps him grow in maturity, I'm sure that, when the time is right, he will come to his own conclusions about the proper course of action.

[Joanne]

1) I'd encourage you, gently and with respect, to be more gracious and kind about judging your Mom's spirituality. It's hers; it's personal. She believes in God and maybe even in scripture, just not the way you do. Let it be.

 

2) Who here always, without fail, repents from and wishes to change every one of their sin patterns? How about stuffing another bite of food in your mouth? Gossip? Impatience? And if anyone is still righteous, REALLY?

 

3) I've heard it said before that Satan doesn't need Satan. He has Christians do his work. Why does Satan need to work when he's got Christians discouraging a new, on fire Christian from participating, learning and growing?

 

Of course, I think a paper marriage - that is married on paper - is meaningless anyway. I do not believe that paper issued by the state = a marriage and I do not believe that those marriages = what God wishes to bless, protect, grow and thrive. I believe God's interest is in the commitment, the quality of the relationship and fidelity.

 

PS: I am married, on paper and otherwise.

 

ETA: I find giving him an ultimatum and finding him a room to be beyond reasonable boundaries, to be controlling and to be icky.

[Renee in NC]

As a sinner, I have to confess my sins.

 

As a sinner, I have to repent of my sins. That means I have to truly want not to commit that sin again. This does not mean that I am proceeding with the thought that I can confess and then be free to do it again (because I can just confess again.)

 

At that point, I am no longer in sin.

 

Do we all sin? Yes. Should an unrepentant sinner be allowed to serve in the church? No.

 

However, saying all of this - it seems that the pastor's upset about this is the appearance of evil, not the sin of fornication.

 

Sex outside of marriage is a sin.

 

Sharing a house outside of marriage is not.

 

Only your mother's boyfriend knows for sure whether he is in sin or not.

[elfgivas]

i believe in a God who wants what is good and life-giving for us. is this man's relationship with your mom a healthy one? does it bring them compassion and companionship?

 

i truly believe God could not care less about our human "caesar" requirements for marriage. ie the piece of paper. if they are in a covenanted relationship that God blesses, that is a marriage in everything but paper, then ?????

 

i would hope a pastor and a church would want what is best for him and your mom.... and trying to get him to move out doesn't sound like that to me...

 

trust your heart; if what is happening is bothering you, then listen to that.

 

:grouphug:

ann

[coralloyd]

I recently have been dealing with a young woman in the Mom Time group I lead, who was living with her bf. When she first started coming, she was a new believer and very open about her living situation. Each week she would come and share the problems she was having with her bf, his ex, his kids from a prior marriage, ect... Some of the women in the group wondered why I wasn't saying anything to her, about the sin she was living in. Some were quite upset. Now I am not the most patient or quiet person. However, I really felt that the Lord wanted me to wait, pray, and get to know this girl first. I waited about 3 months. In that time I really grew to love her, and saw her very tender heart and desire to do what was right.

 

When I finally approached the subject I told her that I was saying this because I love her and I want her her to experience all the blessings that God has for her. I cried, she cried, it was awesome! I never put ultimatums on her, just encouragement to live the life God has for her. She has taken what I said to heart. I didn't tell her to marry him or seperate from him. Only she could decide witch path to choose. She decided to seperate. She went back to school and is taking online courses, while living with her mother. She is reading the Word, and growing in her faith everyday.

 

I really think that older believer definately need to speak the truth. But we also need to use wisdom when it comes to timing, how we bring it up, and most of all alway make sure it is in LOVE.

 

I encourage you to pray about how you handle this situation. I think that you probably should speak to the pastor.Telling him that you admire his zeal; but the way he approached this might not have been the best way.

[Peek a Boo]

1. yes, i think the pastor is out of line for threatening to kick him out completely. No, he is not out of line for pointing out the obvious.

 

2. I do think he should NOT be in a public serving role while living with another person as a boyfriend.

 

3. I would absolutely encourage him to find another church and to either consider and present themselves as spiitually married or GET married.

 

4. of COURSE there's a difference between renting a room from a woman that is NOT someone you were or are having sex with and someone you publicly declare a boy/girlfriend.

 

5. "appearance of evil" doesn't necessarily mean to avoid something that may look bad: I truly believe it mostly means to beware for evil in all it's forms -- even when those forms look GOOD! going to church everyday helping in 5 different ministries can be BAD if you are neglecting your spouse and family.

 

good luck!

[Crimson Wife]

If the reason your mom & her boyfriend aren't married is financial, you could ask the pastor if he'd be willing to perform a spiritual marriage ceremony that is not legally binding. I know an elderly couple who cannot legally marry because the wife would lose her first husband's pension. Because they did not want to live in sin, they were spiritually married by their church. They consider themselves married in the eyes of God but the government (and more importantly the pension company) treats them as single.

[Scarlett]

A large problem is that he is a known fornicator serving in the church. What message does that send to everyone else?

 

Seems to me the problem is he was allowed to be baptized in this church while living with a your mom. That should have been addressed before he was baptized....but it wasn't.

 

I am surprised they are threatening to not even allow him in the building....I could see if they removed him from position of leadership unless he makes that relationship legitimate or ends it.

[Hedgehogs4]

Hebrews 10:26-27 (New International Version)

 

 

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

 

Once we know about sin, we are to work hard at leaving sin behind. You would not tell a murderer that after being saved that it would be acceptable to continue murdering. It is also not acceptable for a person to knowingly continue living in an adulterous situation after being saved as well.

 

Also, the pastor is right, and doing as scripture teaches us. We are to lovingly confront another Christian and point out their sins so they stop them.

 

Galatians 6 1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.

 

I am assumming that the man is having sex with the woman in the house. If they are not married, that is sin. Knowing it is a sin, and continuing to chose this sin is not acceptable to God. Renting a room from a woman is not sinful, unless sex or other sins begin. If your mom's boyfriend is serious about his Christianity, then he needs to move out until they are either married or the relationship ends. It doesn't mean he loves her any less, it just means that God and his word are where they should be- first- in his life.

 

:iagree:

[Peek a Boo]

If the reason your mom & her boyfriend aren't married is financial, you could ask the pastor if he'd be willing to perform a spiritual marriage ceremony that is not legally binding. I know an elderly couple who cannot legally marry because the wife would lose her first husband's pension. Because they did not want to live in sin, they were spiritually married by their church. They consider themselves married in the eyes of God but the government (and more importantly the pension company) treats them as single.

 

{{this is kinda where we are: still spiritually married, but legally divorced.}}

[asta]

If the reason your mom & her boyfriend aren't married is financial, you could ask the pastor if he'd be willing to perform a spiritual marriage ceremony that is not legally binding. I know an elderly couple who cannot legally marry because the wife would lose her first husband's pension. Because they did not want to live in sin, they were spiritually married by their church. They consider themselves married in the eyes of God but the government (and more importantly the pension company) treats them as single.

 

I never have understood why "the state" is involved with the concept of marriage.

 

Does anyone know when that shift occurred in history (marriage switching from a religious institution to a state institution) ?

 

 

a

[angela in ohio]

We only have one side of the story. The church will not be posting their side of the relationship to a message board, so that is all we will know. Do we know if the church has been working with him lovingly for some time, and this is the result of him continuing in sin anyway? That would be the Biblical model, and for all we know, it is being followed. Do we know if the church has offered to help financially so that they can be married and still have enough money to live?

 

If the church allows him to keep living in sin, in order to "show him God's love," they would be showing him a false God. It would be no favor to him. We do not love the sinner if we watch them dying in sin, but do not act. I would say that is hating the sinner. We are at a place now where "let them do whatever they want" supposedly equals love, for our children, for fellow believers. I don't know where that came from, but it isn't the Bible.

[Laurie4b]

I am not sure where to start. My mother and her boyfriend live together and have for 14 years. I said something early on to them and then dropped it. Truly, it doesn't bother me because it has nothing to do with me and isn't my business. My kids know they live together and they know it is a sin. They also know it isn't any worse of a sin than them disobeying me or me saying a curse word. So, to us, it isn't something we need to dwell on or think about. We love them both and I understand my mother's worldly reasons for not wanting to marry.

 

The boyfriend became a Christian last year and was baptized about 8 months ago. He reads the Bible regularly, goes to church, tithes, volunteers and attends a home bible study. My mom attended church with him in the begining, but let me just clarify that she is a new ager, "God is a genie in a bottle to answer my prayers the way I want them answered" kind of believer. She believes in God, but not the Bible. My mom stopped attending after several months because she felt judged by the church because the Pastor confronted them about living together. I feel the pastor feels he is just doing his job and letting them know. So, my mom stopped attending and her boyfriend has continued going and has been in visible positions as a greeter, passing the basket and volunteering for service at events. Recently, it came up again that they aren't married and now the boyfriend is feeling really pressured and disappointed and I am concerned that he will let PEOPLE affect his newfound salvation. Essentially, the church told him he needed to move out. He is disabled and only recieves about $600 a month disability so it wouldn't be easy for him to move out. The church knows his financial situation and they found him a room to rent-- FROM A FEMALE. He said thanks but no thanks and that he doesn't want to start his new christian life doing something that would cause my mother tremendous pain. Also, I am struggling a little bit with how renting a room from a female is any less of an appearance of sin than living with my mother???

 

All that said, I understand that the pastor thinks he is doing the right thing by confronting the boyfriend, but I think giving him some sort of ultimatum or telling him that he MUST move out in order to stay in the church is just outright SHAMEFUL. Am I wrong? Certainly the pastor knows that in God's eyes all sin is equal and if you are going to give one church member ultimatums about his sin, then you must do the same with everyone else. I think the church has adopted the worldy idea of different levels of sin. Society says (and my flesh would certainly agree) that a child molester is a worse sinner than a guy who drives like a menace or worse than someone who has s*x before marriage, but the Bible says it is all equally wrong.

 

I attend this church and have for about the last year. Actually, this church is only a little over a year old. It is a Baptist church if that helps. Because I attend and I enjoy the services I am now struggling and wondering if I should talk to the pastor about the hard line he is taking. He has recently gone through a "transformation" himself and is now really bent on "living christian lives" and talking about not worrying about offending people, but just doing what is right. I DO understand that, but I am not liking how it is looking right now. I might just have to be OK with butting out and if I really can't let it go I could always find a different church, but honestly I don't want to be a church hopper. I went to this church because the pastor is homeschool friendly and the church we were at for the four years prior, was not.

 

Any words of wisdom out there??

 

I think the difference is whether someone is living in a state of choosing to sin--then it wouldn't matter what the sin is, it would be wrong to choose to continue in it. (Akin to if you ran a large company that was miserly to employees and continued on without changing your policies after your conversion. Some sins we slip into --like losing our temper. Others we make choices ahead of time about--like not getting married to a sexual partner or not changing unjust company policies.) If your mother's boyfriend is living as if he is her husband, then that is understandable that it would come under church discipline. (Most churches which practice church discipline have a statement about how it works.) And the part that makes it different than living with a landlady would be if they are romantic partners.

 

Some things that end up being good in the end can be painful while they're happening. And I hope that the pastor as well is feeling the pain--just like it hurts as a parent when you have to discipline a child, or I'm sure it hurts some nurses to give cute little babies shots.

[PineFarmMom]

If the church allows him to keep living in sin, in order to "show him God's love," they would be showing him a false God. It would be no favor to him. We do not love the sinner if we watch them dying in sin, but do not act. I would say that is hating the sinner. We are at a place now where "let them do whatever they want" supposedly equals love, for our children, for fellow believers. I don't know where that came from, but it isn't the Bible.

 

Not to mention that it will negatively affect the church body to allow someone to continue in sin. That is why Paul encouraged so strongly that the body deal with the sins in the church. This won't just negatively affect the father/girlfriend in this situation. This is a church-wide problem that can affect the spiritual life of the entire body of believers that are part of that body. No one likes to hear of a church confronting the sin of a member of the congregation, but it is Biblical to do so.

[Paintedlady]

We only have one side of the story. The church will not be posting their side of the relationship to a message board, so that is all we will know. Do we know if the church has been working with him lovingly for some time, and this is the result of him continuing in sin anyway? That would be the Biblical model, and for all we know, it is being followed. Do we know if the church has offered to help financially so that they can be married and still have enough money to live?

 

If the church allows him to keep living in sin, in order to "show him God's love," they would be showing him a false God. It would be no favor to him. We do not love the sinner if we watch them dying in sin, but do not act. I would say that is hating the sinner. We are at a place now where "let them do whatever they want" supposedly equals love, for our children, for fellow believers. I don't know where that came from, but it isn't the Bible.

 

:iagree:

 

Absolutely! We recently left our church of 12 years b/c of this type of "love." It led to so much destruction in people's lives and the pastor could never see it. It's sad.

 

I also want to point out that I don't agree with the pastor asking the boyfriend to leave the church. That seems extreme and counterproductive, but removing him from leadership is a no brainer IMO.

[elegantlion]

OK- points taken regarding sin. Regarding the harshness and ultimatum from the pastor I still think it is not nice. Again, love the sinner, hate the sin. The pastor has said he cannot enter the church if he continues to live with my mother. Where is the grace? Where is the loving guidance? As for the s*x, I haven't asked, but both he and my mother are disabled and it would take quite an effort for them to still be having s*x. It also isn't something I WANT to picture- lol- so maybe I am being naive, but I think at this point it is companionship and not all that sexual.

 

I have been taught to hate the sin, love the sinner. While I think the pastor was within his right to bring up the topic, it's stepping beyond it to continue to badger him about it. WE can not change the heart, I've been told that is God's job.

 

IMHO it is judging one sin as more heinous than another. Can the pastor make the assertion that ALL in his congregation are leading sinless lives? Romans 3:23 says "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". My study notes say: Some sins seem bigger than others because their obvious consequences are much more serious. Murder, for example seems to us to be worse than hatred, and adultery seems worse than lust. But this does not mean that because we do lesser sins we deserve eternal life. All sin makes us sinner, and all sin cuts us off from our Holy God. All sin, therefore, leads to to death (because it disqualifies us from living with God), regardless of how great or small it seems. Don't minimize "little" sins or overrate "big sins. They all separate us from God, but they all can be forgiven.

 

Unless the pastor is willing to in detail personally examine the lives of every person in the church I think he needs to lay off. I thought churches were for those who desired a closer walk with God, not for people who were already perfect. Just my .02.

[Scarlett]

 

IMHO it is judging one sin as more heinous than another.

The judgment of that conduct (sex outside of marriage) was made by God---not any human.

 

Can the pastor make the assertion that ALL in his congregation are leading sinless lives?

 

Of course not. People could be practicing many sins in secret which will, according to scripture, eventually be revealed. However, he can deal with what is in front of him---a blatant flaunting of a basic Biblical moral requirement.

 

I still think it is werid they are telling him he can't come back into the building if he doesn't move out or marry her. ANYONE is welcome in our meetings----they can only be baptized and serve in positions of responsibility when their conduct and lives come into line with Bible standards....but how can they learn what those standards are if they are kept out of the building?

[TXMary2]

A large problem is that he is a known fornicator serving in the church. What message does that send to everyone else?

 

Why not just say he can attend, but not be in a position of service?

[TXMary2]

Seems to me the problem is he was allowed to be baptized in this church while living with a your mom. That should have been addressed before he was baptized....but it wasn't.

 

I am surprised they are threatening to not even allow him in the building....I could see if they removed him from position of leadership unless he makes that relationship legitimate or ends it.

 

This is part of what is bothering me. When they first started attending the church they were up front and said they weren't married. The pastor at that time basically said, "That's ok. We can perform a committment ceremony." They never did that and I don't know why. After it came up again my mother then stopped attending. The boyfriend continued to attend alone. Now they are telling him to marry, move or get out. That does not sit well with me. Like I said before, tell him he can't be in service, but don't tell him to leave. He has barely been saved a year and I think he is on the verge of throwing away his christianity because of this! He is not going again this morning- the 4th week now. The whole situation makes me really sad. To top it off my mother is encouraging him to dump going to church because she doesn't like church and doesn't really think she is a sinner. That is not a judgement I am making about her spirituality, that is what I know to be true from her own words.

[Remudamom]

Living in sin is a cold blooded thought out decision. It's not a spur of the moment cuss word. He should move out. And not into the woman's boarding house unless it's full of other people too.

[mktkcb]

I agree with this. It sounds as if the church might be going through the steps outlined by Christ in Matt. 18. I'm not sure what the OP means when she says he is being kicked out of the church, but it is clearly stated in scripture that if they have been confronted privately and lovingly (with plenty of grace time), then the matter needs to be brought before the church, then if the person still persists in sin, they must be treated like an unbeliever. I of course don't know how things are actually being communicated to the bf. Maybe a room with a woman landlord isn't the greatest idea, but it sounds like they at least were trying to offer options or "outs" that were better than the situation he's in now. The bf at least should not be in any position of ministry at this point. Sometimes it *is* difficult to truly obey God's word. I think I would need more definite details before I would summarily condemn what this church is doing. I also agree with all the others about sin/persisting in sin issues.

[Renai]

OK- points taken regarding sin. Regarding the harshness and ultimatum from the pastor I still think it is not nice. Again, love the sinner, hate the sin. The pastor has said he cannot enter the church if he continues to live with my mother. Where is the grace? Where is the loving guidance? As for the s*x, I haven't asked, but both he and my mother are disabled and it would take quite an effort for them to still be having s*x. It also isn't something I WANT to picture- lol- so maybe I am being naive, but I think at this point it is companionship and not all that sexual.

 

At a church I used to attend, the pastor told the congregation (even fussed at 'em once) not to pressure new Christians into change. That's the Holy Spirit's job, not ours. Yes, they need to know, but once they are told, God works on the heart. While that heart work was going on, however, they were not serving in the church (especially visible positions). He would not tell them to leave the church, but he also told them they could not serve in different positions - they are still learning the walk.

[Renai]

present themselves as spiitually married

 

 

If the reason your mom & her boyfriend aren't married is financial, you could ask the pastor if he'd be willing to perform a spiritual marriage ceremony that is not legally binding.

 

{{this is kinda where we are: still spiritually married, but legally divorced.}}

 

I don't think I've ever heard the term spiritual marriage.

 

To the OP, do you not live in a state that recognizes common-law marriage? (I don't) Some churches recognize that as well, some don't.

[Sputterduck]

1. No one has ever been able to prove to me that all sins are equal. I think that's a societal belief, like all angels are female, when in fact, there isn't one female angel in the Bible. The Bible says that the wages of sin are death and that all sin falls short of the glory of God. A 98 percent and a 25 percent on a test both fall short of 100. How does that mean they are the same? It doesn't. Any sin falls short of perfection. That does not make all sins the same.

 

I guarantee you that if a little girl is gang banged by 27 men, God is more horrified than if someone steals a pencil from someone. Period. End of sentence. Nowhere in the Bible does it say, "all sins are equally bad." Period. End of sentence.

 

2. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that men and women can't live together. It does say that fornication is wrong. My roommate is male. I don't care what people think. I really don't. He took in a young woman and her little boy who were struggling after leaving an abusive man and gave them a deal on rent and a feeling of safety and protection that they had never known. I hope God rewards him immensely for that.

 

3. That pastor is not free of sin. He is free to give his advice and then he needs to mind his own business and not risk running a baby Christian off.

[Crimson Wife]

A spiritual marriage is where the church performs the marriage ceremony without the husband and wife getting a civil marriage license. They say the vows and make the commitment before God and the community. But under civil law, they are technically unmarried.

[Sputterduck]

We only have one side of the story. The church will not be posting their side of the relationship to a message board, so that is all we will know. Do we know if the church has been working with him lovingly for some time, and this is the result of him continuing in sin anyway? That would be the Biblical model, and for all we know, it is being followed. Do we know if the church has offered to help financially so that they can be married and still have enough money to live?

 

If the church allows him to keep living in sin, in order to "show him God's love," they would be showing him a false God. It would be no favor to him. We do not love the sinner if we watch them dying in sin, but do not act. I would say that is hating the sinner. We are at a place now where "let them do whatever they want" supposedly equals love, for our children, for fellow believers. I don't know where that came from, but it isn't the Bible.

 

The church has no business "allowing" anything. Churches are full of sinners. The church has no business allowing or not allowing something in a person's private life. Freewill and all. Even God doesn't mess with free will.

[Renee in NC]

The judgment of that conduct (sex outside of marriage) was made by God---not any human.

 

 

 

Of course not. People could be practicing many sins in secret which will, according to scripture, eventually be revealed. However, he can deal with what is in front of him---a blatant flaunting of a basic Biblical moral requirement.

 

I still think it is werid they are telling him he can't come back into the building if he doesn't move out or marry her. ANYONE is welcome in our meetings----they can only be baptized and serve in positions of responsibility when their conduct and lives come into line with Bible standards....but how can they learn what those standards are if they are kept out of the building?

 

That is weird to me as well - I understand removing him from positions of responsibility, but exclude him from the service in all together? Why wasn't this dealt with from the very beginning if it was an issue? It is strange to me that he was allowed to do all these other things before if it were a "banishing" thing since it isn't new.

[Erica in PA]

No, I'm sorry, I disagree with you. You are finding blame in the wrong place, in my opinion. This man knows that what he is doing is wrong, but is choosing to continue on sinning rather than following God's Word. Church discipline is commanded in Scripture, and imo, this pastor would not be fulfilling his responsibility before God if he were to allow an unrepentant individual to remain in his sin, even while attending church and even taking a leadership role. While it's true that we all sin, it's a different situation to knowingly have an ongoing sinful relationship, and refuse to repent of that. If my pastor came to me because he had noticed my sin of... let's say gossiping, and I refused to repent of that, saying that I had good reasons to keep on sinning that way, then I also should receive church discipline.

 

I'm sure it has been really exciting and encouraging to you to see your mother's boyfriend come to faith in Christ, and that you don't want to see that jeopardized by the church's actions. However, at the same time, church leadership are commanded by God to intervene in situations like this, so please don't fault them for that. It is wholly this man's responsibility to obey God, and the Bible's teaching on fornication is clear. If he is a true believer, and I sincerely hope he is, God's holy spirit will eventually help him to see the light on this issue and do what is right.

[Sputterduck]

No, I'm sorry, I disagree with you. You are finding blame in the wrong place, in my opinion. This man knows that what he is doing is wrong, but is choosing to continue on sinning rather than following God's Word. Church discipline is commanded in Scripture, and imo, this pastor would not be fulfilling his responsibility before God if he were to allow an unrepentant individual to remain in his sin, even while attending church and even taking a leadership role. While it's true that we all sin, it's a different situation to knowingly have an ongoing sinful relationship, and refuse to repent of that. If my pastor came to me because he had noticed my sin of... let's say gossiping, and I refused to repent of that, saying that I had good reasons to keep on sinning that way, then I also should receive church discipline.

 

I'm sure it has been really exciting encouraging to you to see your mother's boyfriend come to faith in Christ, and that you don't want to see that jeopardized by the church's actions. However, at the same time, church leadership are commanded by God to intervene in situations like this, so please don't fault them for that. It is wholly this man's responsibility to obey God, and the Bible's teaching on fornication is clear. If he is a true believer, and I sincerely hope he is, God's holy spirit will eventually help him to see the light on this issue and do what is right.

 

So... if a person sins, it okay to not let them attend church? You really think that? Discipline is one thing. Not allowing someone to attend church at all is something completely different.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Jesus welcomed everyone, including sinners. I think the pastor's action are not what Jesus would do IMHO.

[Erica in PA]

So... if a person sins, it okay to not let them attend church? You really think that? Discipline is one thing. Not allowing someone to attend church at all is something completely different.

 

It's not a matter of what I may think, it's my understanding of what the Bible teaches. There are several passages where excommunication is commanded for a professing Christian, to be put out of the local church for open, unrepentant sin. One passage is 1 Cor. 5. There are others as well. Here is a link to an article that sums it up:

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/church-discipline.html

[Erica in PA]

1. No one has ever been able to prove to me that all sins are equal. I think that's a societal belief, like all angels are female, when in fact, there isn't one female angel in the Bible. The Bible says that the wages of sin are death and that all sin falls short of the glory of God. A 98 percent and a 25 percent on a test both fall short of 100. How does that mean they are the same? It doesn't. Any sin falls short of perfection. That does not make all sins the same.

 

I guarantee you that if a little girl is gang banged by 27 men, God is more horrified than if someone steals a pencil from someone. Period. End of sentence. Nowhere in the Bible does it say, "all sins are equally bad." Period. End of sentence.

 

2. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that men and women can't live together. It does say that fornication is wrong. My roommate is male. I don't care what people think. I really don't. He took in a young woman and her little boy who were struggling after leaving an abusive man and gave them a deal on rent and a feeling of safety and protection that they had never known. I hope God rewards him immensely for that.

 

3. That pastor is not free of sin. He is free to give his advice and then he needs to mind his own business and not risk running a baby Christian off.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with your #1 point.

[Renee in NC]

I agree wholeheartedly with your #1 point.

 

I John 5:16-17 talks about two different types of sin - that which leads to death and that which doesn't. All wrongdoing is sin.

[Sputterduck]

It's not a matter of what I may think, it's my understanding of what the Bible teaches. There are several passages where excommunication is commanded for a professing Christian, to be put out of the local church for open, unrepentant sin. One passage is 1 Cor. 5. There are others as well. Here is a link to an article that sums it up:

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/church-discipline.html

 

 

I'm a little horrified by this. Even JWs who are often criticized for their legalism and harshness and disfellowshipping don't exclude the person from attending the Kingdom Hall. I mean... the real point is to get the person BACK to God. Not cast them out forever. After all, God convicts, Satan condemns.

 

Something like over 90% of engaged Christian couples have sex before marriage. Should we have a culling of most engaged couples, too?

 

A pastor can cast me out for my sin when he's stopped sinning. And especially to those who hold that all sins are equally bad, remember that the pastor is a habitual sinner. He might want to kick himself out before he turns on anyone else. We are all habitual sinners. Does anyone here want to claim that they don't sin anymore? Anyone?

[Sputterduck]

So... how many here didn't have sex before marriage? How many of you think you should have been barred from church altogether?

[Renee in NC]

I'm a little horrified by this. Even JWs who are often criticized for their legalism and harshness and disfellowshipping don't exclude the person from attending the Kingdom Hall. I mean... the real point is to get the person BACK to God. Not cast them out forever. After all, God convicts, Satan condemns.

 

Something like over 90% of engaged Christian couples have sex before marriage. Should we have a culling of most engaged couples, too?

 

A pastor can cast me out for my sin when he's stopped sinning. And especially to those who hold that all sins are equally bad, remember that the pastor is a habitual sinner. He might want to kick himself out before he turns on anyone else. We are all habitual sinners. Does anyone here want to claim that they don't sin anymore? Anyone?

 

I think the issue is not sin, but rather unrepentant sin. Catholics would call this a mortal sin (sex outside of marriage.)

 

I guess I am somewhere in the middle - the pastor is right, but I think he is being a little extreme (not even letting him come to services.)

[Renee in NC]

So... how many here didn't have sex before marriage? How many of you think you should have been barred from church altogether?

 

I did and that was sin (among many others) that I had to confess (to the priest) and be absolved from before my first Communion. Any mortal sin I commit now must be confessed and repented from or I am not worthy to partake in the Lord's Supper.