Girl dies after receiving vaccine (HPV).....

[Greta]

The vax for chicken pox has been used in Japan for more than 20 years successfully. The need for a booster was not unexpected.

 

Well then our doctors are liars. I was just told this was recently added, as in that last year.

 

I was specifically told it was a one-time thing, no need for boosters. That changed only recently.

[astrid]

What if, as an adult, for some reason you can't get it (i.e. no insurance)... it's worse to get chicken pox as an adult than as a child. I bet that person would rather not get the shots in the first place, get the chicken pox as a child, and be done with it.

 

Or, consider this scenario:

Dh never got chicken pox as a child. His mom is a nurse, and by the time he was 10 and still hadn't gotten it, she sent him to play with every kid they knew who had a raging case of it--- and their siblings who were exposed but not yet broken out, thus more contagious. He never got it.

 

Fast forward to when dd is 2 and dh and I are 29: We opted for dd to have the vaccine so as to keep her from getting the disease and spreading it to dh. Her ped. told us, and we researched it for ourselves, that in our situation, it would be the best course of action since chicken pox in adult men can be very, very serious and cause, among other problems, sterility and high rates of birth defects.

 

Fast forward two more years, dd is 4 and dh and I are 31: Dh and I are at a friends' house for a Christmas party. He is on the floor, rough-housing with the kids (typical for dh!) and a week later he starts to feel like he has the flu. Then he breaks out ALL. OVER. HIS BODY. And inside his body. Very high fever and accompanying seizures finally convinces him to go to the dr., who admits him to the hospital with a chicken pox diagnosis, so he's in an isolation unit. Hospitalized for four days, missed three weeks of work. During the course of his medical treatment, he is visited by an infectious disease specialist, who asks if we are finished having children. The answer is no; our ONLY is only two, and we were toying with the idea of having more. I was fine with one, but dh wanted two. Well, now our chances are slim to none of conceiving, and if we did conceive, there existed a possibility that the baby would have birth defects which were incompatible with life. So that ended THAT chapter in our life.

 

In a nutshell, the decision of those parents NOT to vaccinate their kids affected our ability to have a bigger family. And you know, there are days when I'm really NOT okay with that, KWIM? I respect the right of everyone to make their decisions for their own family, but it bears mentioning that in the cases of vaccinations, your decisions affect others as well.

 

astrid

[Scarlett]

Why not the tetanus one? What do I not know about it? You are talking about DTAP, right?

 

Yes tetanus, not tetnus. LOL

 

Well, I shouldn't even have said anything because I don't recall what I know about it. My basic reasoning is that I discovered tetanus can be treated IF you get it and therefore the vaccine has more risk than benefit. I grew up believing that if you didn't get a tetanus shot after being cut with rusty metal you were for sure going to die. Right away. :tongue_smilie:

[astrid]

Great move, Mom. A+ for thinking that one through!

 

Okay. So the the rest of us who thought it through and opted to vaccinate are loser-moms. I get it. :001_huh:

 

astrid

[Sputterduck]

Or, consider this scenario:

Dh never got chicken pox as a child. His mom is a nurse, and by the time he was 10 and still hadn't gotten it, she sent him to play with every kid they knew who had a raging case of it--- and their siblings who were exposed but not yet broken out, thus more contagious. He never got it.

 

Fast forward to when dd is 2 and dh and I are 29: We opted for dd to have the vaccine so as to keep her from getting the disease and spreading it to dh. Her ped. told us, and we researched it for ourselves, that in our situation, it would be the best course of action since chicken pox in adult men can be very, very serious and cause, among other problems, sterility and high rates of birth defects.

 

Fast forward two more years, dd is 4 and dh and I are 31: Dh and I are at a friends' house for a Christmas party. He is on the floor, rough-housing with the kids (typical for dh!) and a week later he starts to feel like he has the flu. Then he breaks out ALL. OVER. HIS BODY. And inside his body. Very high fever and accompanying seizures finally convinces him to go to the dr., who admits him to the hospital with a chicken pox diagnosis, so he's in an isolation unit. Hospitalized for four days, missed three weeks of work. During the course of his medical treatment, he is visited by an infectious disease specialist, who asks if we are finished having children. The answer is no; our ONLY is only two, and we were toying with the idea of having more. I was fine with one, but dh wanted two. Well, now our chances are slim to none of conceiving, and if we did conceive, there existed a possibility that the baby would have birth defects which were incompatible with life. So that ended THAT chapter in our life.

 

In a nutshell, the decision of those parents NOT to vaccinate their kids affected our ability to have a bigger family. And you know, there are days when I'm really NOT okay with that, KWIM? I respect the right of everyone to make their decisions for their own family, but it bears mentioning that in the cases of vaccinations, your decisions affect others as well.

 

astrid

 

 

Why didn't you get dh the vaccine?

[astrid]

My basic reasoning is that I discovered tetanus can be treated IF you get it and therefore the vaccine has more risk than benefit.

 

According to several sources I've read, it is curable. In approximately 50% of cases. Personally, I don't like those odds.

 

astrid

[Scarlett]

and a week later he starts to feel like he has the flu. Then he breaks out ALL. OVER. HIS BODY. And inside his body. Very high fever and accompanying seizures finally convinces him to go to the dr., who admits him to the hospital with a chicken pox diagnosis, so he's in an isolation unit. Hospitalized for four days, missed three weeks of work. During the course of his medical treatment, he is visited by an infectious disease specialist, who asks if we are finished having children. The answer is no; our ONLY is only two, and we were toying with the idea of having more. I was fine with one, but dh wanted two. Well, now our chances are slim to none of conceiving, and if we did conceive, there existed a possibility that the baby would have birth defects which were incompatible with life. So that ended THAT chapter in our life.

 

Wow! That is horrible. I am so sorry.

[8circles]

Varicella vaccine effectiveness has been observed to be as low as 44% and as high as 85%. So anywhere between 15% & 56% of all recipients of the vaccine will develop the disease & could pass it on to those without immunity.

 

ETA link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18419532

Edited September 29, 2009 by momoflaw
add link

[mommaduck]

My son went blind in February, after receiving the Menactra vaccine. He immediately fell ill, and was blind the following week. No doctor who saw him will consider the vaccine the cause, hence his reaction was not reported. Not a single doctor will report it.

 

I'm generally very pro-vaccine, but this gave me pause. Maybe all you anti-vaccine homeschool crazies are right! :D (After 8 months of treatment and two hospitalizations, my son is fine, with only minimal vision loss.)

 

My brother, a retired neurosurgeon, had no trouble seeing the link.

 

There is some money or authority connect with the reporting. My second child nearly died and I had got no sleep, as I had to stay right by her side to jiggle her, blow on her face, call her name loudly, etc every time she stopped breathing. YES, her doctor recognised the symptoms. YES, it was her doctor that identified the vaccination connection. NO, it was not reported and we were asked not to tell the "big doctors" in the office that she had informed us about the connection...she would get into trouble and risk losing her job at the office. NOTHING was reported and I was young enough that I did not even know about VAERS. I was not given a baby monitor and my child did grow out of it. But imagine waking up to a child that was not breathing and you could not wake up. I did that regularly! I could not sleep for fear of losing my baby and it would have been passed off as SIDS. We found through research and quiet agreement of doctors that there was plausibility for a genetic connection with vaccine reactions and have discontinued any vaccinations for our family. I THOUGHT I was being a good mother by doing exactly, and blindly, as I had been told was best for my children. I learned from that experience that the BEST thing I can do for them is to be informed and weigh out those decisions myself and do what is best for OUR family. I know others will yell and scream about herd immunity. To be honest, I don't give a flip. I'm responsible for this one (or in my case 7) life. Also, I seriously do believe that these vaccinations have done more harm to the immune systems of the populace, in the forms of auto immune disorders, than it has done good.

 

Those are my thoughts and I'm sticking to my guns on them. And not a single family doctor or pediatrician of ours has ever said anything negative about our not vaccinating. The only person that chewed me out was an ignorant, just out of med school, did not know us, chick at a clinic who was more upset that one of my children hadn't had a MMR or DTP (the two suspected vaccinations in my child's reaction) more than she was concerned about an infection that I had suspected to be an ear infection. She misdiagnosed my child and we ended up in ER 24hrs later. I'm chalking her up to lack of experience and her own gullibility of believing everything that she was told in med school....stupid. Even nurses will tell you not to believe everything you hear in school.

Edited September 29, 2009 by mommaduck

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

I only have a boy, but I wouldn't let him have it nor any girl if I had a girl. The risk/benefit thing is just off to me.

 

Moral grounds? Well, I hope my son stays chaste until he marries and his wife has done the same. However, I do realize even if HE never strays SHE could and there ya go.

 

My son is 9 1/2 and he has had every vaccine recommended by mainstream doctoring. He had his last at age 4...and I imagine he is due for a booster of some sort soon. I wish so much I had researched it more before I let that happen. I would not have let him have the chicken pox vaccine for instance. And I will not let him get a tetnus shot either.

I hope he never steps on a nail or scrapes himself on a wire fence with no tetanus shot.

 

Thanks to vaccinations, there are fewer than 100 cases of Tetanus in the US yearly. While the news of one girl perishing after a vaccine (with no supported correlation) can cause an uproar, I wonder why folks are not concerned that 2 of 10 people infected with Tetanus die? So, that is about 10 people each year, assuming 50 are infected. And it is a horrible death. The bacteria that causes Tetanus lives in the ground and can enter through a puncture wound, or a minor scratch. Complications of the disease include broken bones (from the severe spasams) and heart problems. Perhaps if the media reported every death from a vaccine preventable disease more would be concerned.

 

Of course, anyone has the right to refuse any medical care whatsoever. But please do so based on facts, not fear or spotty media coverage. Some of the diseases vaccines prevent seem like no big deal *because* of the vaccines. If one is refusing a vaccine based on a remote chance of complications, one must also be aware of the complications involved with contracting the disease.

[astrid]

Why didn't you get dh the vaccine?

 

Sorry...should have addressed that.

There wasn't a doctor in the land who would vaccinate a grown man, in his childbearing years, with the live chicken pox vaccine, at least not in our metro area. We checked. NO one would touch that with a ten foot pole.

 

At least at that time (I haven't looked into it in the past nine years because it's been a moot point) the vaccine had not been tested (or tested enough) in adult men. Everyone we spoke with said that the potential for liability was too great. His own physician told him that he wouldn't vaccinate him because there was a risk of sterility and birth defects. Yeah. We found that out the hard way.

 

astrid

[kiana]

According to several sources I've read, it is curable. In approximately 50% of cases. Personally, I don't like those odds.

 

astrid

 

As far as I can find, mortality rate is approx. 15% for non-vaccinated and 6% for inadequately vaccinated (missing a booster, but still some immune response), with western medical treatment. Still much longer odds than I'd like to play. Mortality rate is far higher in other parts of the world as well.

[astrid]

Perhaps not. I hope not.

 

shrug.

astrid

[DesertDweller]

Ok. no problem.

 

But the facts are we have no idea if this death has a darned thing to do with the HPV vax. Whether you ignore me or not that article is baseless assumption which only inspires hysteria and over-reaction.

 

What if I wrote a story about a girl who died immediately after reeiving that vaccine and left out the pertinent fact that she was hit by a bus? What sort of journalism would that be?

 

This is the same thing. The girl likely died of something entirely unrelated like accute infection.

 

I'm not very far along in this thread, so maybe this was covered. Typically, they don't give vaccines to people with accute infections, or for that matter, that are sick. So, while yes there may be more to this story, I doubt we'll find the girl was already gravely ill.

[mommaduck]

I hope he never steps on a nail or scrapes himself on a wire fence with no tetanus shot.

 

 

 

My children have and they have a nurse for a grandmother. Even she says that there is little to no risk of tetanus if the wound bleeds and is cleaned properly and immediately. And this is a woman who is a die hard vaccinater herself (however, even she learned from our experience. BTW, she gets just about every shot out there "because she's a nurse" and has fibromyalgia. She has also noted the difference in the strength of immunity between our children and their vax'd cousins from her other son....their children get sick CONSTANTLY...ours only on occasion and they spring back very quickly).

Edited September 29, 2009 by mommaduck

[Sputterduck]

Sorry...should have addressed that.

There wasn't a doctor in the land who would vaccinate a grown man, in his childbearing years, with the live chicken pox vaccine, at least not in our metro area. We checked. NO one would touch that with a ten foot pole.

 

At least at that time (I haven't looked into it in the past nine years because it's been a moot point) the vaccine had not been tested (or tested enough) in adult men. Everyone we spoke with said that the potential for liability was too great. His own physician told him that he wouldn't vaccinate him because there was a risk of sterility and birth defects. Yeah. We found that out the hard way.

 

astrid

 

Huh. This is what the CDC has to say about that.

 

"All healthy adults should be assessed for immunity to chickenpox, and those who do not have evidence of immunity should be vaccinated."

 

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/vac-faqs-gen.htm

[astrid]

Huh. This is what the CDC has to say about that.

 

"All healthy adults should be assessed for immunity to chickenpox, and those who do not have evidence of immunity should be vaccinated."

 

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/vac-faqs-gen.htm

 

Interesting. All I can say is when dd was a year old and was vaccinated, we asked about vaccinating dh as well. His GP pretty much recoiled in terror at the suggestion, saying it wasn't tested on adult men, etc. So what do you do in that instance? You go with it. Dd is 12, so that was 11 years ago; there was not the instant access to information that there is now, and perhaps at that point in time, it was the norm not to vaccinate adult men? I was teaching full time, and going to grad school, so was exposed to it all the time, but I'd had it as a child so it wasn't an issue for me.

 

If we had it to do over again, in the year 2009, yes, he'd probably be vaccinated. But then, we did the best we could with the info we had.

 

astrid

[Scarlett]

I hope he never steps on a nail or scrapes himself on a wire fence with no tetanus shot.

 

Thanks to vaccinations, there are fewer than 100 cases of Tetanus in the US yearly. While the news of one girl perishing after a vaccine (with no supported correlation) can cause an uproar, I wonder why folks are not concerned that 2 of 10 people infected with Tetanus die?

 

What are the chances of getting it? I'm sincerely asking because I don't know.

 

My son did step on a metal mole trap and puncture his foot. I opted to not take him in but I also think he was still covered by his original shot. My decision was based at that time on the opinion of a doctor I respect very much.

 

However, I wish I had never entered this conversation because to tell you the truth I don't know what I'm talking about.

[Sputterduck]

Interesting. All I can say is when dd was a year old and was vaccinated, we asked about vaccinating dh as well. His GP pretty much recoiled in terror at the suggestion, saying it wasn't tested on adult men, etc. So what do you do in that instance? You go with it. Dd is 12, so that was 11 years ago; there was not the instant access to information that there is now, and perhaps at that point in time, it was the norm not to vaccinate adult men? I was teaching full time, and going to grad school, so was exposed to it all the time, but I'd had it as a child so it wasn't an issue for me.

 

If we had it to do over again, in the year 2009, yes, he'd probably be vaccinated. But then, we did the best we could with the info we had.

 

astrid

 

 

Well, I'm sorry it didn't work out better. :grouphug:

[astrid]

Well, I'm sorry it didn't work out better. :grouphug:

 

Aww, thanks. Everything happens for a reason, right? We consider ourselves so blessed to have one health child, when so many others struggle with infertility or have children with chronic or debilitating illnesses or conditions. It's all good. But I really appreciate your hugs! :grouphug:, astrid

[mommaduck]

Not arguing, at all, this whole thing just reminded me of something. My son found a thumb tack on the floor and sat it on my daughter's table (those little kid tables). She did not know it was there, and leaned on it the table... right where the thumb tack was. The thumb tack went all the way into her hand... so far in, you could not see the metal pin anymore... the plastic part was flush against the skin.

 

I pulled it out (had to pull very hard, as it was stuck), and it did not bleed. At all. I called the doctor, and they told me not to worry since she has had all her Tetanus shots and to just clean it (I already had). I know the chances of getting Tetanus might not be very high, but still... I thanked God for that one (her having all the shots).

Not arguing here either. I figure vaccinations like I do circumcision. They are an option available and each family needs to make that decision for their own. My argumentation would be against anyone that would judge another for their decision, particularly since we do not know the full circumstances of other families and we aren't the ones paying the price of the risk of vaccinating or not vaccinating (ie, it's not your child that your running the risk of losing, it's theirs). You made the decision that you believed to be best for your family. I've made decisions that I've felt best for my family. :)

[mommaduck]

Exactly. Very well said. :iagree: Should I say it a fourth way?

 

I didn't think you were arguing by the way. I just didn't want you to think I was when I quoted you... you just really reminded me of that. :tongue_smilie:

I didn't. This topic though does tend to bring out the mamabear or Mommaduck in me (honestly, you don't want to make a duck mad...they do attack :lol: ). There are some repetitive comments (admittedly on both sides) that tend to stir things up. Given my own experience, I do have a "how dare anyone" attitude towards people that presume that a person is not doing their darnest to keep their children well, simply because they made a researched and educated decision different than theirs. I respect people that decide differently if they have done so intelligiently and not just blindly. This should go both ways. So none of this was towards any one person ;) , I do enjoy the discussion, but my comments were in general and to hope that people on both sides of the fence will remain gracious.

[Tap]

The vax for chicken pox has been used in Japan for more than 20 years successfully. The need for a booster was not unexpected.

 

Ds15 was vaccinated for cp in 1995. I was in college, dh was in college and we both worked. He went to two babysitters at time. One was a sitter with a commercial daycare, so we knew to expect to get exposed at least once a year. The other sitter had never had cp. So, we were one of the first in our area to get the cp vaccine, to protect and adult who had never had it. My physician had researched its use in Japan (including the clinical trials) and felt it was prudent in our case.

 

At that time, I was told to expect the need for a booster. They weren't certain when, but just to know to expect it. So, they did have the early research to speculate that it wasn't a once in a lifetime vaccine when it first came to the US in 1995.

[MistyJ]

Did you make a VAERS report? http://vaers.hhs.gov/vaers.htm

 

(I'm sorry about your sonAnd glad that he is doing better)

 

Thank you! I just printed out the form. Huh, after 8 months in and out of hospitals and doctors' offices, you'd think someone would have mentioned that link.

[calandalsmom]

The HPV vax is now recommended for teen boys as well. That hasnt been mentioned on any posts I have seen tho I may have missed it.

 

Unless new info appears all my kids will get it around age 13 or as my dr recommends.

[Greta]

Okay. So the the rest of us who thought it through and opted to vaccinate are loser-moms. I get it. :001_huh:

 

astrid

 

Thank you for assuming the very worst possible motivations for my comment. I wasn't referring to or even thinking about other parents who have opted to get that vaccine. I was only wishing that *I* had done a better job of thinking through what I was doing to my daughter, rather than accepting what the doctor said as the gospel truth. I am not anti-vaccine; the truth is if I had it to do over again, I would still do most of them. (Just on a very different schedule.) And I don't make it my business to concern myself about what choice other parents make. I was only wishing I had gone to the trouble to get all the relevant information when I made that choice. Different families have different circumstances to deal with, so I make no attempt to judge. In our case, given our circumstances, there was very little reason for that particular vaccine, and I probably shouldn't have gotten it. My personal regrets are not judgments on anyone else.

 

ETA: I've been doing some more reading about this vaccine, and the truth is, it is just so hard to know! This whole situation is frustrating because there is so much conflicting information out there, the doctor we had at the time was not very communicative, and even with all the information in hand, you're taking a risk if you do, and another risk if you don't. I guess a parent can end up feeling guilty either way. I am truly sorry, Astrid, that my commend offended you. I do wish you had given me the benefit of the doubt about my motivations, but I will accept responsibility for not thinking about how other moms who had gotten the vaccine might interpret what I said. Truly, I was only expressing my frustration with myself and with this whole confusing mess. I trust other moms to make their own decisions. Heck, there's times I wish other moms would come and make some decisions for me!

Edited September 29, 2009 by GretaLynne

[Greta]

Just read up on chicken pox, and have decided that since two of my kids have mild eczema, we better stick with the immunizations. If they didn't have eczema, I would still be wondering about the boosters.

 

http://kidshealth.org/parent/infections/bacterial_viral/chicken_pox.html :

 

"The rash may be more extensive or severe in kids who have skin disorders such as eczema."

 

"Some people can develop serious bacterial infections involving the skin, lungs, bones, joints, and the brain (encephalitis). Even kids with normal immune systems can occasionally develop complications, most commonly a skin infection near the blisters."

 

(quotes taken from the site above)

 

Wow, that's interesting. Thank you for sharing this. My daughter had eczema when she was young, but hasn't been affected by it for several years now. Still, I'll ask her doc about it just in case.

[hornblower]

I sure hope we don't have to boost chicken pox.

 

My ds got quite bad cellulitis - which required abx & at one point the dr was strongly considering admitting him for iv abx (& I was having visions of flesh eating disease) - and then, he got this:

 

Recurrent papular urticaria after varicella immunization in a fifteen-month-old girl.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15750467

 

He has had it for years at the injection site. It's not particularly troublesome but I don't like it. Comes and goes, no pattern. It's getting less and less frequent but it still pops up....

 

Both my kids gets mild eczema on & off too. Decisions, decisions.....

 

 

 

 

Just read up on chicken pox, and have decided that since two of my kids have mild eczema, we better stick with the immunizations. If they didn't have eczema, I would still be wondering about the boosters.

 

http://kidshealth.org/parent/infections/bacterial_viral/chicken_pox.html :

 

"The rash may be more extensive or severe in kids who have skin disorders such as eczema."

 

"Some people can develop serious bacterial infections involving the skin, lungs, bones, joints, and the brain (encephalitis). Even kids with normal immune systems can occasionally develop complications, most commonly a skin infection near the blisters."

 

(quotes taken from the site above)

[Snickerdoodle]

Both my kids have eczema, one more severe than the other, and both have had the chicken pox. In our case it wasn't bad at all. One got about 50 bumps the other got about 200. Neither got any in the mouth, eyes or other sensitive areas.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Snickerdoodle

[StephinAL]

The rash may be more extensive or severe in kids who have skin disorders such as eczema."

 

May is the key word. I have two kids with eczema, one that has it over a large portion of his upper body. When he had CP I took extra care of his skin. They took aveeno baths several times a day, with some essential oils for the antibacterial properties, herbal sprays, etc. My children's skin never looked better even though it had pox. Just thought I'd throw that in. Someone else probably has a completely different experience, but just because they have eczema doesn't mean they will have a worse reaction.

[PineFarmMom]

Truly, I was only expressing my frustration with myself and with this whole confusing mess. I trust other moms to make their own decisions. Heck, there's times I wish other moms would come and make some decisions for me!

 

 

ME TOO!!! :lol: I have struggled MUCH over vaccines with my dc. I still question any decisions I've made. In the beginning, I was all about obeying the docs, they know best, etc. The cp vax was my first issue of rebellion. I went through a no-vax period, after my older two were up-to-date and before younger 2. I just felt unsure that any of them were safe. I read up on them and talked to doctors and ultimately changed my mind to feel more that I do want my children vaxed on most but that I wanted to alter the schedule a bit. So here I am!!

[CAMom]

 

 

 

In a nutshell, the decision of those parents NOT to vaccinate their kids affected our ability to have a bigger family. And you know, there are days when I'm really NOT okay with that, KWIM? I respect the right of everyone to make their decisions for their own family, but it bears mentioning that in the cases of vaccinations, your decisions affect others as well.

 

astrid

 

Astrid, I'm really sorry that happened to your family.:grouphug:

 

But, you do realize that even vaccinated children get the chicken pox fairly often? My son was vaccinated from chicken pox at the age of two. He got them anyway at the age of 4 and gave them to his little sister who was under a year old. Boy did she ever have a bad case!

 

Are you sure the kids in question were not vaccinated? Even if they had been, they still could have contracted the disease and passed it on to your dh.

 

:grouphug:

[WishboneDawn]

One more point before anyone decides this story applies to us in North America. The UK does not use Gardasil, which we use in Canada (the UK vaccine is not approved for use here) and I suspect is what is used in the US as well. If there is a problem with the vaccine used then it's still not something we should be getting worried about here in NA.

[mommaduck]

My children got chicken pox FROM their recently vaccinated cousins who came down with it within a couple of days of their vax. Their doctor even told them that the vax would most likely cause them to break out, but supposedly to a lesser degree.

 

The difference was, their children received it through their bloodstream and mine received it naturally (respiratory). The children came down with an equal case of it.

 

nm on the rest...CAMom said it better

Edited September 29, 2009 by mommaduck

[astrid]

Thank you for assuming the very worst possible motivations for my comment. I wasn't referring to or even thinking about other parents who have opted to get that vaccine. I was only wishing that *I* had done a better job of thinking through what I was doing to my daughter, rather than accepting what the doctor said as the gospel truth. I am not anti-vaccine; the truth is if I had it to do over again, I would still do most of them. (Just on a very different schedule.) And I don't make it my business to concern myself about what choice other parents make. I was only wishing I had gone to the trouble to get all the relevant information when I made that choice. Different families have different circumstances to deal with, so I make no attempt to judge. In our case, given our circumstances, there was very little reason for that particular vaccine, and I probably shouldn't have gotten it. My personal regrets are not judgments on anyone else.

 

ETA: I've been doing some more reading about this vaccine, and the truth is, it is just so hard to know! This whole situation is frustrating because there is so much conflicting information out there, the doctor we had at the time was not very communicative, and even with all the information in hand, you're taking a risk if you do, and another risk if you don't. I guess a parent can end up feeling guilty either way. I am truly sorry, Astrid, that my commend offended you. I do wish you had given me the benefit of the doubt about my motivations, but I will accept responsibility for not thinking about how other moms who had gotten the vaccine might interpret what I said. Truly, I was only expressing my frustration with myself and with this whole confusing mess. I trust other moms to make their own decisions. Heck, there's times I wish other moms would come and make some decisions for me!

 

No problem. I understand. It's just that to me, it came off as a condemnation of those of us who have made a different choice.

 

astrid

[astrid]

Astrid, I'm really sorry that happened to your family.:grouphug:

 

But, you do realize that even vaccinated children get the chicken pox fairly often? My son was vaccinated from chicken pox at the age of two. He got them anyway at the age of 4 and gave them to his little sister who was under a year old. Boy did she ever have a bad case!

 

Are you sure the kids in question were not vaccinated? Even if they had been, they still could have contracted the disease and passed it on to your dh.

 

:grouphug:

 

Yes, I realize that. Thanks. And Yes, I'm certain they had chicken pox. Their mother called everyone who had attended the party a week later to say that her kids had broken out, and that she was just thrilled because she had chosen not to vaccinate, and for the past month she'd been purposefully exposing them to chicken pox so they'd get it "before spring soccer season started." The timetable worked for her; they got sick over Christmas vacation.

 

Astrid

[astrid]

nm on the rest...CAMom said it better

 

Wait....hold the phone....I"m detecting some "tone" in your post...so in case anyone's getting all hot and bothered about this, I'd like to point out that I never, ever made any sort of judgement about those who opt not to vaccinate. I simply stated that it's important to realize that decisions that you think only affect your family, sometimes can affect others.

 

Vaccinate. Don't vaccinate. Whatever.

 

astrid

[CAMom]

Yes, I realize that. Thanks. And Yes, I'm certain they had chicken pox. Their mother called everyone who had attended the party a week later to say that her kids had broken out, and that she was just thrilled because she had chosen not to vaccinate, and for the past month she'd been purposefully exposing them to chicken pox so they'd get it "before spring soccer season started." The timetable worked for her; they got sick over Christmas vacation.

 

Astrid

 

:grouphug: again.

 

I think her irresponsibility, then, lied in the fact that she did not tell the people who would be coming into her home that her children had recently been exposed. Not in the fact that she made a conscious decision not to have her children vaccinated.

 

The fact remains that it is not at all uncommon for children to break out in the chicken pox in spite of having been vaccinated because vaccination does not equal immunization.

 

I guess I would have to ask if you would be equally angry if your dh was exposed by a family who were vaccinated but broke out anyway? I do understand that you have anger towards this family's irresponsibility but I think it is misdirected at their choice not to vaccinate.

 

:grouphug:

[mommaduck]

Wait....hold the phone....I"m detecting some "tone" in your post...so in case anyone's getting all hot and bothered about this, I'd like to point out that I never, ever made any sort of judgement about those who opt not to vaccinate. I simply stated that it's important to realize that decisions that you think only affect your family, sometimes can affect others.

 

Vaccinate. Don't vaccinate. Whatever.

 

astrid

 

The problem is that our decision to vaccinate also affected the life of one of our children (and the fact that my other children have a higher probability of having the same life threatening reaction than the majority of the populace). The life of our child vs the possible loss of another's fertility. Tell me which I should be most concerned about as a mother? I do understand your point and do understand the hurts of infertility (believe it or not, I had dealt with those issues as well and was told I could not have children. I "made the window" according to the doctor). But the strength of your feelings against those that have chosen otherwise does not take into consideration their own circumstances as well. Thus, there ends up being bad feelings all around. We both had something negative come out of this whole issue. And truth be told, even if that mama had vaccinated her children, they could have still come down with the pox. It doesn't prevent them from getting it, it's supposed to lessen the amount of time and severity of it. I would be upset more that she had been intentionally exposing them and then exposing them to everyone else without the knowledge of others. If it had been me, I would have after kept the kids inside and/or warned people before the party so that if they had any health concerns, they could make their own decisions on whether or not to come. I've known people in this situation and none of them would have done as she did (have a party, not say anything). They kept their kids home after exposure to see if they would come down or warned their families, etc that their child had been exposed and may be carrying. Common courtesy, kwim?

 

So my tone was more of a response to another tone. But we both have reasonable concerns. I edited because I didn't want to react negatively. Because I can see the other side.:grouphug:

 

 

BTW, I asked my SIL to let me know whenever her children received vaccinations so I could choose whether to come around with mine or not. There are some things that I did not want to be exposed to. She was going to have her children given a particular vax at the time I was due with one of my children. She delayed it by a month so her family could come see us and the new baby right after birth. That was the choice and it was a courtesy on both our parts to maintain open communication on the subject.

Edited September 29, 2009 by mommaduck

[astrid]

:grouphug: again.

 

I think her irresponsibility, then, lied in the fact that she did not tell the people who would be coming into her home that her children had recently been exposed. Not in the fact that she made a conscious decision not to have her children vaccinated.

 

The fact remains that it is not at all uncommon for children to break out in the chicken pox in spite of having been vaccinated because vaccination does not equal immunization.

 

I guess I would have to ask if you would be equally angry if your dh was exposed by a family who were vaccinated but broke out anyway? I do understand that you have anger towards this family's irresponsibility but I think it is misdirected at their choice not to vaccinate.

 

:grouphug:

 

Yes, irresponsible to go exposing her kids to communicable diseases and then having a party, with everyone's hands in the chex mix, so to speak.

 

Anger? Not angry at the family. Life happens; we live in a society of other people, and sharing germs is a hazard of daily life. Life happens, and you go on. I have a lot of friends who don't vaccinate, and in my experience, most of the discussions about non-vaxing I've been privvy to in real life and on message boards are heavy on the benefits/drawbacks for the individual, with very little attention paid, at least in the public discussions I've followed, in the greater societal/global impact of that personal choice.

 

I'm not saying it's right or wrong. Everyone has to make decisions based on what's best for their family. Sometimes, those decisions have further ramifications that might not be apparent. To each his/her own.

 

Personally? I'm glad that vaccinations exist against things like diptheria, polio, tetanus and a host of other nasties, and that as parents, we'll probably never have to know the horrible anxiety that parents had in the '50's, when polio was a real worry. But that's my choice, and there are pros and cons of that choice, I realize.

 

Astrid

[astrid]

The problem is that our decision to vaccinate also affected the life of one of our children (and the fact that my other children have a higher probability of having the same life threatening reaction than the majority of the populace). The life of our child vs the possible loss of another's fertility. Tell me which I should be most concerned about as a mother?

So my tone was more of a response to another tone. But we both have reasonable concerns. I edited because I didn't want to react negatively. Because I can see the other side.:grouphug:

 

 

Um......I never asked, nor would I expect, anyone to forsake the health/wellbeing of a child over the fertility of another adult. It's absurd to even ask that question, rhetorical or otherwise. I'm sorry you feel that I was making that case. Please read my post further down this thread. I really could care less what people do with their own kids. But whenever I hear discussions about vaccinations, the only concerns ever voiced are personal-- how it will affect MY kids. But it's valid to consider, as more and more parents are choosing not to vaccinate, that there are implications that reach further than an individual family.

 

I"m sorry your kids have trouble with vaccinations. I certainly understand your concerns, and my heart goes out to you. It must be difficult.

 

astrid

[ReneTL]

I have found this website very helpful in sorting through the current medical paradigm that affects us all:

www.mercola.com

[8circles]

I really could care less what people do with their own kids. But whenever I hear discussions about vaccinations, the only concerns ever voiced are personal-- how it will affect MY kids. But it's valid to consider, as more and more parents are choosing not to vaccinate, that there are implications that reach further than an individual family.

 

I'm not anti-vax but neither am I following the CDC reccomendations to a 'T'. I am very concerned about the affect of so many vaccines on the general population, worldwide. I think that in the end, it will have been a negative impact overall, not positive. When I discuss vax with people I don't usually bring up my global concerns because I feel strongly that ultimately the choice remains with the parents, at least in the US. It's the parent's job to do as much research as they think necessary & make the decision. These discussion are usually about my family's personal experiences with vax. I won't insult them by telling them how I think their choice for what is best for their family (or sometimes their blind acceptance of mainstream thought as truth) negatively impacts others.

[phathui5]

Even she says that there is little to no risk of tetanus if the wound bleeds and is cleaned properly and immediately.

 

That's the same thing our pediatrician said.

[Joker]

But couldn't your dh have gotten the chicken pox vaccine himself?

 

 

Read all of her posts.

[phathui5]

I did. That's why I deleted my post.

[Joker]

I did. That's why I deleted my post.

 

:001_smile: Sorry

[emeraldjoy]

Astrid,

I don't really know where I stand in the whole vaccine controversy and am forever learning and adapting with it. I just want you to know that I very much appreciate your story and the way you have told it. I especially like the below exert as I believe it rings true to so many, many different areas in life. We all really just do the best we can with the knowledge and the resources that are available. Very simple, yet profound truth.

 

And...I am very grieved that your desire to have more children could not come to fruition. I am sorry.

 

e

Interesting. All I can say is when dd was a year old and was vaccinated, we asked about vaccinating dh as well. His GP pretty much recoiled in terror at the suggestion, saying it wasn't tested on adult men, etc. So what do you do in that instance? You go with it. Dd is 12, so that was 11 years ago; there was not the instant access to information that there is now, and perhaps at that point in time, it was the norm not to vaccinate adult men? I was teaching full time, and going to grad school, so was exposed to it all the time, but I'd had it as a child so it wasn't an issue for me.

 

If we had it to do over again, in the year 2009, yes, he'd probably be vaccinated. But then, we did the best we could with the info we had.

 

astrid

[Lovedtodeath]

it bears mentioning that in the cases of vaccinations, your decisions affect others as well.

 

astrid

Thank you for the reminder. It is an important one, and I agree with you that the discussions usually revolve around the individual.

 

Okay. So the the rest of us who thought it through and opted to vaccinate are loser-moms. I get it. :001_huh:

 

astrid

I thought she was commenting on the other mom's ability to think things through about boosters... and not on someone choosing not to vax at all. :tongue_smilie:

[nata]

 

There is a huge formal body of knowledge that shows no harmful effects from the vaccine. There are no documented deaths or illnesses from this vaccine.

 

 

I'm just curious too. Whose formal body of knowledge? The pharmaceutical company's or an unrelated third party? Or better yet several third parties. And over what time span? 2 years...10 years...at least a generation?

 

I'm tempted to believe that anything not tested for at least a generation basically equals us and our children being "guinea pigs" in a huge experiment, one which, BTW, benefits the pharmaceutical companies like gangbusters...this goes for meds as well as vax.

 

I'd truly like to know where one can access this information.

 

Thanks!