My brother was saying recently

[BMW]

that slavery in America is rampant.

 

He went on to talk about how the economics of the country have us working harder and harder just to turn around and spend all that we make to try to make ends meet. Our income is sucked up just to provide a roof over our heads and food on the table.

 

Now, that is a generalization, to be sure.

 

But, what is really terrible is that I am spending all income to tread water. There is no getting ahead. And I'm not in much debt (very, very little, the biggest debt being what I have to pay the lawyer for my divorce, money well spent... well, I am spending that now).

 

I cannot afford for my teens to learn to drive because there is no money for insurance. We do not have fancy things.

 

I am now in a place where my children have to take turns getting shoes. I had to buy flip flops as school shoes for my teen girl. I had to tell the high school that I could not pay the registration fees for school. I had to tell the middle school that I could not pay for P.E. clothes. I had to wait to get meds from the pharmacy because I didn't have the money for the co-pay.

 

Dh and I have excellent credit scores and do not live any special lifestyle. This Christmas I do not see that we will have any money for presents.

 

We are at a place where I DO relate to depression folk. If I buy a shirt, it is under $10 and we'd better make it last. I make our laundry soap. I cut every corner that I can... usually.

 

We DO have a lot of children. It takes every dollar to survive and we have no reserve right now...

 

And what hope do we have for our children's futures? We do have plans for them, but, reality stares back at us and I think I will have several adult children living at home and working to get through and I don't see any changes...

 

I can see where a lot of people in similar situations and worse situations might gather together and be fed up with seeing government spending... it reminds me of the poor in France prior to the revolution. Sometimes the poor get sick of scrapping around and knowing that the rich are living the life. We want a life that isn't all about survival.

 

So, what do you think about the economy (not so much the recession, that is recent)... do you think it's been turning this way for longer than the past few years? Does the government have anything to do with inflation and economics and what our standards of living are?

[Dayle in Guatemala]

You know, I can relate a little to what you're saying.

 

We are definitely frugal. We don't do many extra things, clothes have to last, shoes have to last, school books are used for EACH child and saved to use again, and I've learned to spread a buck when it comes to groceries (which cost a LOT here).

 

I'm okay with where we are. We don't have a lot of debt. We will be debt free in about a year and that will be great. Our lifestyle has been the result of our choices. We were given a lot of opportunities to make choices.

 

I wonder if that will be true for our dc? I fear that their choices will be limited a little and that makes me sad.

 

But, I'm, hopefully, building character in them and displaying the kind of character that says, "We will make it work. We will be happy no matter what. We get to choose our attitudes in life even if we can't always choose our situation."

[SquirrellyMama]

I don't have a lot of advice for you but I do think the economy didn't get in trouble just in the last 4 or even 8 years.

 

How old are you teens? Do they have jobs? Can they pay for some of their things and insurance? I did that when I was in high school and it didn't hurt me. I think if you can instill in your kids the value of a dollar and hard work then they will have a bright future even if money is tight.

[BMW]

It's not that I want sympathy or encouragement. I am not an unhappy person. It's just that while we are working very hard and being responsible, there is no room for emergencies... there is no "get 6 months income set aside" possible for us and a job loss would mean a loss of home.

 

Yes, times get tough in a country. Yes, unfortunate things happen. We know several on the board that struggle.

 

I guess I am wondering if the population is satisfied with this way of life? Should we be? If you were to set up a country, like the colonists did years ago, how would you set up the economy?? It's not like "if you don't work, you don't eat". I see a lot of people working for very little in life. And I don't mean "keeping up with the Jones"...

 

I think part of America's unrest right now is in part to this very part of life. It is SO hard to provide for a family. I know that there are liberals and conservatives and all that jazz and there are divisive issues at play. But, don't you think a lot of Americans are tired of scraping to get by while our government enjoys a lifestyle untouchable? It's not that I want that untouchable lifestyle for myself, I want to pay my basic bills and not have to worry!! I want to pay my bills AND save money as well, and plan for a future and help my children.

[Crissy]

 

So, what do you think about the economy (not so much the recession, that is recent)... do you think it's been turning this way for longer than the past few years? Does the government have anything to do with inflation and economics and what our standards of living are?

 

Your situation sounds much like the way I grew up. My parents had such a difficult time making ends meet. We were growing and hungry, but the grocery budget was only so big. I remember days when the only food in the house was Wonder bread, sugar and a bit of margarine. We at 'butter and sugar sandwiches' for dinner. Mom always cried when that happened.

Clothing was bought at the beginning of the school year ($75 - $100 per child) and it had to last the year. We would occasionally see a new pair of jeans at Christmas time.

Mom was regularly two months behind on all of her bills, and consistently risked getting the electric and water shut off.

Still, they made it. Mom and Dad are still in the house I grew up in. The mortgage is paid off, and my dad feels great about it.

Mostly because the things we went through pale in comparison to the way he grew up.

His family was POOR. The kids fought over food. Clothing had to last through several years and several children. They often moved in the middle of the night because when they were about to be evicted for lack of rent money.

Life was incredibly hard for my father's family.

 

Yes. I think the economy is tough. A lot of families are finding it harder than ever to save and wonder how they will pay for so many things. Still, I don't think it's new. I think we've had several very comfortable years so we're not used to it.

[gingersmom]

I don't blame the economy, the government or anyone else.

 

I chose to live in the neighborhood I did and thus had to pay X amount of dollars for my home and taxes. I could have chosen a different type of home such as a townhouse/condo but I chose not to.

 

I chose to be a sociology major in college instead of a business major. Maybe thereby limiting my future career choices.

 

I chose to stop working when my daughter was born.

 

I chose to only have two children.

 

I chose to have a cat instead of a dog.

 

It all comes down to the choices we make.

[BMW]

Yes, I do have to look at myself and the choices I've made to be where I am at today. If I drew the line in the sand and started looking at my choices today... what choices do I have?? My house has no equity to sell, even in great condition... To go back to school requires money that is not there... To get a job to earn more, making minimum wage or even 1-1/2 times minimum wage to turn around and have more money taken by the government... How many posts do we read here where families are stuck?? What choices do they have?

 

But, what about the choices of those who take our money and live high on the hog?? When do we stand up and say enough is enough? I have heard since I was a little girl, "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer." Where does a country go from here??

 

And, once again let me say, I am not unhappy with a simple life... I am not asking to be wealthy or have a new car or new clothes or nice furniture. I simply want to pay my bills and save money, too...

[LMA]

Yes, I do have to look at myself and the choices I've made to be where I am at today. If I drew the line in the sand and started looking at my choices today... what choices do I have?? My house has no equity to sell, even in great condition... To go back to school requires money that is not there... To get a job to earn more, making minimum wage or even 1-1/2 times minimum wage to turn around and have more money taken by the government... How many posts do we read here where families are stuck?? What choices do they have?

 

But, what about the choices of those who take our money and live high on the hog?? When do we stand up and say enough is enough? I have heard since I was a little girl, "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer." Where does a country go from here??

 

And, once again let me say, I am not unhappy with a simple life... I am not asking to be wealthy or have a new car or new clothes or nice furniture. I simply want to pay my bills and save money, too...

 

One possibility for school is to apply for financial aid. With all due respect, you sound as if you could qualify for grants from private and public sources. The only way to know is to contact a school near you with your tax forms and ask about financial aid.

 

Best,

Louise

[LizzyBee]

I have friends who are struggling. Some have been laid off, some are working menial jobs just trying to get by. Our church's food pantry is serving record numbers of families and there are people who truly depend on getting that free food twice a month. But no, I don't think what we're experiencing in this economy is slavery. I think it's insulting to call it slavery.

 

My Mom grew up in a very poor and large family during the depression. Everything she owned - clothing, books, barrettes - was in one cardboard box under the bed. At times, the kids slept sideways on the bed because they slept 4-5 to a bed. When there was no milk, they dipped a rag in sugar water for the baby. They went to bed hungry as often as not.

 

Mom married a farmer. We lived in hand me down clothes, but we never went hungry. When the freezer got low, we butchered a cow. We had 2 large gardens in addition to the farm crops. My Mom canned enough food to last for years. Not just fruits and veggies, but soups and beef cubes too. If cash was tight, we took a few cows to the auction. My mom used to say facetiously that it's a good thing we had the govt to tell us we were poor; otherwise, we wouldn't know it. Well, it didn't feel too good when the kids on the schoolbus teased us about our hand me down clothes, but compared to how my mom grew up, we had it pretty good.

 

Now us kids are adults and we've all done better financially than our parents. My kids think they're deprived because they don't get everything they want, and I tell them how much better they have it than I did. They actually get new clothes from the store. They have lots of toys. They've been to Disney World. We have cable TV and high-speed internet. They've never missed a meal and they eat out even when we're not on vacation. I'm glad they have things I didn't and I'm blessed to be able to buy those things! But I wish they had a better appreciation of how nice they have it.

 

I am so thankful to live in this age. The average colonist or settler worked like a dog to eke out a meager existence. Disease and hunger were rampant. In more recent times, my mgf worked in coal mines for $1/day. My pgf traveled literally across the country to cut timber before returning home to find a wife. My dad worked as a landscaping laborer 150 miles from home for 18 years while my mom and us kids ran the farm. When he got a job close to home, he worked on the farm all morning then went to work and worked 8 hrs of more physical labor.

 

Life is hard, but I think there has never been a time of greater opportunity in this country. (Okay, this very moment doesn't look so great, but I am still holding out hope that the economy will improve.) When I think life's not fair and I shouldn't have to work so hard, I picture myself living in a different age and steering a plow behind a horse, or washing clothes in a washtub outside, or grinding wheat to make my own flour (with no electric mill!). Or I remember my own childhood, cleaning vacation cabins at the lake (my share of the pay was 50 cents) or picking green beans at a neighboring farm for $1/bushel. As soon as I turned 14, I got a "real" job with a W-2. At times during high school, I worked 2 jobs and then studied and did homework late at night. I needed cash and good grades to leave home and have a better life, and I was determined to have both. Life now looks pretty good from that perspective.

Edited September 17, 2009 by LizzyBee

[sunshine]

I think it is also hard to hear that the gov't wants more taxes to take care of other people when you feel like you are barely taking care of yourself and family.

 

Choices: I choose to homeschool - the option of public school (private ain't happening) because my child would go to public school in the 3rd worst school system in the country.

 

Move you say??? Well my dh is a commercial shrimper and that is all he does for a living, and he knows this areas ocean bottoms that took him 30 years to learn so that when he drags his nets he doesn't hit a snag at the bottom that yanks the boat under the ocean. So moving is out because this is the only place he can shrimp

 

He chose to be a commercial shrimper and not a lawyer or lawmaker. Well... when he grew up, shrimpers made as much as some lawyers and as recently as 10 years ago our adjusted gross income was 135,000 a year. Last year it was 17,500. Big difference.

The gov't chose to sign NAFTA. The gov't chose to allow price dumping of antibiotic, perservative, formaldehyde dipped shrimp into the country thereby destroying an Amercian Industry for cheap imports.

 

So when you think of choices, some you make and then the gov't takes over and your choice goes down the toilet

and you get to live with other people's choices for you.

[KingM]

The truth is that most people in most places have struggled at times to put food on the table. In this day and age, even the poorest Americans can get food for their kids in a pinch, so nobody needs to starve. That's a big improvement over what most of our ancestors faced during lean times. That's not to say that people aren't poor or struggling, but it's important to keep it in context.

[LizzyBee]

The truth is that most people in most places have struggled at times to put food on the table. In this day and age, even the poorest Americans can get food for their kids in a pinch, so nobody needs to starve. That's a big improvement over what most of our ancestors faced during lean times. That's not to say that people aren't poor or struggling, but it's important to keep it in context.

 

You said it so much more concisely than I. :001_smile:

[Jugglin'5]

The truth is that most people in most places have struggled at times to put food on the table. In this day and age, even the poorest Americans can get food for their kids in a pinch, so nobody needs to starve. That's a big improvement over what most of our ancestors faced during lean times. That's not to say that people aren't poor or struggling, but it's important to keep it in context.

 

 

:iagree: Absolutely.

[Crissy]

My brother was saying recently that slavery in America is rampant.

 

 

What do you think he meant by that statement?

To whom are we enslaved?

The government?

"Big Business?"

One another?

[lionfamily1999]

It's not that I want sympathy or encouragement. I am not an unhappy person. It's just that while we are working very hard and being responsible, there is no room for emergencies... there is no "get 6 months income set aside" possible for us and a job loss would mean a loss of home.

 

Yes, times get tough in a country. Yes, unfortunate things happen. We know several on the board that struggle.

 

I guess I am wondering if the population is satisfied with this way of life? Should we be? If you were to set up a country, like the colonists did years ago, how would you set up the economy?? It's not like "if you don't work, you don't eat". I see a lot of people working for very little in life. And I don't mean "keeping up with the Jones"...

 

I think part of America's unrest right now is in part to this very part of life. It is SO hard to provide for a family. I know that there are liberals and conservatives and all that jazz and there are divisive issues at play. But, don't you think a lot of Americans are tired of scraping to get by while our government enjoys a lifestyle untouchable? It's not that I want that untouchable lifestyle for myself, I want to pay my basic bills and not have to worry!! I want to pay my bills AND save money as well, and plan for a future and help my children.

ETA, n/m that was TMI (what I had put). Simply, I agree, I understand, and I wonder the same thing too.

Edited September 17, 2009 by lionfamily1999

[chiguirre]

So, what do you think about the economy (not so much the recession, that is recent)... do you think it's been turning this way for longer than the past few years? Does the government have anything to do with inflation and economics and what our standards of living are?

 

Short answers: yes and yes. To truly answer this question would require an econ textbook, so I'll limit myself to a few salient points.

 

Real wages (that's wages adjusted for inflation so that they're comparable over decades) stagnated in the 70s. Here's a link to a NY Times article that does a good job explaining real wages and what's been happening with them. Pay particular attention to the difference between average wages that have been increasing and wage increases by percentile. Almost all growth has been in the top 1% of earners.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/28/business/28wages.html

 

Gini curve:

 

Here's a link to The Economist's definition, but it's short, so I'll copy it too.

 

http://www.economist.com/research/economics/alphabetic.cfm?letter=G#ginicoefficient

 

Gini coefficient

An inequality indicator. The Gini coefficient measures the inequality of income distribution within a country. It varies from zero, which indicates perfect equality, with every household earning exactly the same, to one, which implies absolute inequality, with a single household earning a country's entire income. Latin America is the world's most unequal region, with a Gini coefficient of around 0.5; in rich countries the figure is closer to 0.3.

 

 

Here's a track of the Gini coefficient of the US (scroll down about half way, the numbers were multiplied by 100, so they vary from 0 to 100 instead of 0 to 1):

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient#US_income_Gini_indices_over_time

 

The trend for the US is increasing inequality from about 37 to 47. We've gone from being roughly comparable to Europe in the 1950s to being roughly comparable to Latin America today.

 

If economics peaks your interest, Paul Krugman's (center left) and Richard Posner's (center right) general audience books are a good place to start.

[JoyfulMama]

It all comes down to the choices we make.

 

Yes, to a large extent I believe we do make choices. But choices indicate there were options. I don't think there are always options.

 

What about those who make a choice to take a RISK? Take a risk on a new job, a new promotion, something that is an UPWARD or lateral move. The choice to take that risk is that of the employee. The risk is made to improve.

 

There is also risk that is not part of our choice - and that is that of the company. We do not get a choice about getting laid off, or fired, or having benefits slashed, or having a job relocated, or getting injured. We do not get a choice about how the company we work for markets a product or obtains materials, or the quality of the worker they hire to work above you, next to you, or below you.

 

Yes, we do have choices to make, and we do deal with the implications of our choices. We also have to deal with the implications of choices that are made by others which ultimately effect us.

 

THAT is where I feel the original comment of "slavery" is valid. We must deal more often with the implications of the choices made for us by others. The government and businesses need to make decisions which are in THEIR best interests, and that leaves us having to deal with the implications, which may or may not be beneficial to us as individuals. The goal of the government and business is not to benefit EVERY individual, but to benefit a majority or a group.

 

Should we not take risks? How then could new ideas be cemented, improvements be made, dreams realized?

 

Choices, yes a part. But we are not living in bubbles where we only assume the implications of our own choices and risks.

[Renee in NC]

The truth is that most people in most places have struggled at times to put food on the table. In this day and age, even the poorest Americans can get food for their kids in a pinch, so nobody needs to starve. That's a big improvement over what most of our ancestors faced during lean times. That's not to say that people aren't poor or struggling, but it's important to keep it in context.

 

I thank God everyday that I live in 2009 and *not* 1933.

[Danestress]

But, what about the choices of those who take our money and live high on the hog?? When do we stand up and say enough is enough? I have heard since I was a little girl, "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer." Where does a country go from here??

 

 

 

I'm not sure if you mean the government is taking your money or someone else? Can you be clearer?

 

I do sometimes feel like my taxes are just ridiculous. But with a per child deduction of over $3,000 and a tax credit per child of $1,000, it's not as bad as it will be when my children are grown.

 

I am thinking that you have a rather large family. Even if you had a huge income, I wouldn't blame you for complaining about taxes. But typically people with small incomes and large families find themselves with relatively small income tax bills.

 

Or are you talking about someone else? I'm not sure who it is that is living high off the hog on your money. I do understand that some people have large incomes, but I don't really see them as living off my money. I mostly see them as living off *their* money, except for the Madoffs and other involved in scams.

 

I do think that the world can be an unfair place, and I understand if you are more just commenting on the general feeling of injustice that some people live so well when others barely scrape by. It does feel unfair sometimes. I'm sorry you are struggling.

[Ravin]

Equating being poor and living paycheck-to-paycheck (with occasional gaps) is NOT slavery. It sucks, but it's far and away not slavery. After all, if I really want to I can quit my lousy job and move to another state--even if I'd have another lousy job there.

[Plucky]

I thank God everyday that I live in 2009 and *not* 1933.

 

Me, too. For many, many reasons.

[Audrey]

Equating being poor and living paycheck-to-paycheck (with occasional gaps) is NOT slavery. It sucks, but it's far and away not slavery.

 

 

Oh, I don't know. I could argue that it is enslavement to the capitalist machine. That was the first thing I thought when I read the OP.

[OrganicAnn]

My sister lived in a country where it was common to have only two meals a day and one or both of the meals was cornmeal mush (that's every blessed day). It wasn't considered a particularly poor country, but definitely 3rd world. We take it for granted that we can eat something different every day.

 

My ancestors fled famine where people ate grass in order not to starve. We have more safety nets to keep people from starving in this country.

 

My grandparents generation in our family no one had a college education (some didn't finish high school). My generation in our family everyone has a college education.

 

We don't necessarily make more than my parents/ILs did when they had young kids (adjusted for inflation yada yada), but my DD has significantly more books and toys that we ever did growing up. And significantly less than all of our acquaintances with kids. You don't hear of many kids today who's only toy was the one doll she received each year at Christmas (sometimes with a cracked face so it was affordable), which was my mother's experience.

 

We are so rich in this country compared with other countries and other times. We may not be as rich as we were a couple of years ago, but we are still very lucky. I think we just expect a certain standard of living and if we can't achieve it then we get angry.

Edited September 17, 2009 by OrganicAnn

[lionfamily1999]

Oh, I don't know. I could argue that it is enslavement to the capitalist machine. That was the first thing I thought when I read the OP.

The chains are made of laws, regulations, and beauracratic red tape.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

Oh, I don't know. I could argue that it is enslavement to the capitalist machine. That was the first thing I thought when I read the OP.

 

Oh, I don't know about that. I don't think we even have a capitalist country anymore, maybe never had true one to begin with.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we have a socialist or communist government either. I believe our government was intended to be a government based on "rule of law" not necessarily capitalism. Law was supposed to be king vs. the king as law. The people were supposed to be involved in the law making process by choosing those to govern who best represented their ideals.

 

A majority of the people (something like 64% of eligible voters) don't exercise their right to choose. Not choosing is also a choice that we must live with. Those who do choose don't always get what they bargained for. Every generation of Americans can attest to that.

 

Like all government models tried throughout history, ours has devolved into one based on favoritism, nepotism, and greed. That seems to be human nature, no matter which ism you choose. If you can figure out how to effectively combat those 3 things, you win the prize. :D

 

Jmho

[Danestress]

I know slavery has differed by era and location, but the American experience with slavery really forms my ideas of what "slavery" looks like, and to me, its hard to equate being really poor and feeling like your choices are limited with true slavery. I tend to think that we can throw around a word like "slavery" when we complain about our economic situation because we don't actually know anyone who is really a slave, and so there is no one to say, "Hey, wait, my children were sold and I never saw them again. You?"

 

Maybe it's more like "servitude?"

[MIch elle]

??

 

cable TV

more than one TV/house - is it a flat screen

DVD/VCR player

cell phone (multiple/family) & house phone

more than one vehicle/household

computer

 

??

 

If he has more than 2 of these things, he's enslaved himself. People are confused these days!

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

Do you have everything you *need*? Do you have anything you don't *need*? If you can answer yes to both those questions. You are rich. This is what I tell my children. The great thing is they understand.

 

Embrace the hardness of life. Let it energize you into being creative with your resources. Get your whole family involved in searching out new ways to save and cut corners. Pinch those pennies till they scream for mercy. Having a goal for all that scrimping helps, whether it is a Christmas fund or an oil bill. Meeting a goal is so satisfying.

 

I agree with the posters that said this is nothing new. Life has always been hard for most people. Here in the US we have been under the illusion that the abundance and relative ease of the last few years was normal and would go on forever. Now reality is hitting us and we don't want to look it in the eye.

 

Are we slaves? Yes and no. It depends on if you think a slave is a slave through no choice of his own. If we are in debt, we are slaves to that debt, but chances are we enslaved ourselves. Our choices automatically limit us, does that make us slaves?

 

Has our government contributed to our problems? sure. But it was partially our own greed that let them. We got what we wanted: easy credit, houses to live in that we couldn't afford, cheap food, plenty of new toys. Those things are not natural, they were created by government intervention into the economy. They couldn't last because they were created from an illusion. Now our government is trying its darndest to keep the illusion propped up. However, a great many Americans have had their blinders ripped off, have seen reality and are angry.

 

I say don't get angry. Learn how to live in the new reality. It ain't going away, no matter what they say.

 

This is all my personal opinion, hope it helps a little. :-)

[LizzyBee]

Do you have everything you *need*? Do you have anything you don't *need*? If you can answer yes to both those questions. You are rich. This is what I tell my children. The great thing is they understand.

 

 

 

Years ago, I went to a conference where one of the speakers had grown up in a large family during the depression. When she got married and bought a house, she "knew she was rich" because there was glass in the windows and paint on the outside of the house. We take so much for granted these days and our perceived needs are much greater than our real needs.

[BMW]

Thanks everyone who participated in this discussion.

 

I think the bottom line for me in this thread is that it is hard to hope that life will turn around... hard to see that stretching dollars and squeaking pennies will change. BUT I have many things to be thankful for. I do truly thank God that I have a clean, comfy bed to sleep in, in my own bedroom, too! And, you are right when you point out that we eat good food each day. I think I have been taken in by the illusion that life should be easy or better. while others might be born into priviledge or work in to it... life has been hard and will be for some time. But, there are many, many blessings, too.

 

For the record, my brother was talking about economic slavery, not the literal slave history and treatment of slaves. Slaves did the work and were treated horribly. We do the work and are allowed enough to scrape by and are not treated horribly, but neither do we ever get out of the rat race. And his perspective is that the government keeps us in economic slavery on purpose... uses the population and give us enough to keep us quiet/quieter. This is my brother's view... so, if you argue it, that's just fine and dandy because I was thinking through it myself and wondered what you think... :001_smile:

 

And, yes we do have a large family. My dh is a brave soul who took on a single mom or 7 children and he had 2 sons who lost their mom to cancer. He makes an excellent income for a smaller family. We do not qualify for any financial assistance for college. I do not have $ to go back to school. I do not have $ for the children to go to college. BUT, as a family, we will work together and make it through. Reminds me of the story of the two brothers whose family could not pay for college, so the one brother worked to pay for the other's college and then when he got out, he would work and the first working brother would get his turn to go...

 

And regarding the teens working... my teens look for work all the time. My 17 yog worked for hire from 14 years on. She has been responsible with her $, but chose to save it instead of using it for car insurance to drive. (choices! and she was very lucky to get a job for pay at that age) My 16 yob works on boats at the docks and wherever he can find work, but nobody locally is hiring 16 yr olds in our area right now when they can hire older people who are out of work... so my son does not have a regular income and cannot drive. The blessing is that I can drive him around and I have a car to do so. My 15 yog hasn't tried getting work because no one is hiring a 16 yr old... she has tried getting babysitting jobs... So, it seems that the teens will find odd jobs for money, we will guide them with what to do with the money that they get... I will drive everyone around and be thankful for a vehicle... and eventually they will work and carve out a future for themselves. It isn't that this is all bad... these can be wonderful life lessons.

 

Thanks for letting me ramble...

Edited September 17, 2009 by BMW

[Nestof3]

I don't see tough times as something new, and I honestly think this country has been shielded by them for a long time, for the most part. I also don't think people work more now than they used to. I honestly think we have more free time and more disposable income on a whole than in the past. I think we also have more clothes, toys, stuff than ever before. My grandma used to dye my dad's pants for new school years and let the hem out. Shoes got a coat of shoe polish, and there were only two pair: Sunday and regular. My dad went years without a bike.

 

We have thrift stores everywhere now, but many people are embarrassed by them. When I was in school, people laughed if you bought your clothes from certain stores, like KMart. When my Dad was growing up, people laughed if you had no clothes or if they were ragged.

 

There's craigslist and freecycle. You'd be amazed what people will give when you ask. We gave away many things this winter -- some small and insignificant, but people wanted them: furniture, smoke detectors, unopened L'Oreal foundation, etc.

 

My grandfather used to search dumpsters for furniture and pick up cans off the street to earn money.

 

My mom went to school and then worked after school, rarely having free time. I started working when I was 16. Our son pays his own car insurance by working, but many teens are not expected to have jobs these days.

 

Sports lessons were simply for the wealthy back then -- no help from the taxpayers at the local rec center.

 

One of the reasons we chose to stay in our 1,100 sq ft house and only have three children is because we didn't want to owe money the rest of our lives. We didn't want to assume that our income would stay the same or get better. It has gotten better, but we haven't changed our lifestyle.

 

Oh, and I just finished watching The Pursuit of Happyness last night. I was very thankful crawling into my cozy bed and felt ashamed of complaining about anything.

Edited September 17, 2009 by nestof3

[TXMomof4]

I thank God everyday that I live in 2009 and *not* 1933.

 

I agree, and thank God I live in the USA instead of Africa, Haiti, Guatemala, Ecuador, etc.

 

I agree that it's very hard to make ends meet. But on our very worst days, in the very worst situations we are still so blessed compared to most of the world. I know that doesn't make it easier, but we are truly blessed.

[Crissy]

For the record, my brother was talking about economic slavery, not the literal slave history and treatment of slaves. Slaves did the work and were treated horribly. We do the work and are allowed enough to scrape by and are not treated horribly, but neither do we ever get out of the rat race. And his perspective is that the government keeps us in economic slavery on purpose... uses the population and give us enough to keep us quiet/quieter. This is my brother's view... so, if you argue it, that's just fine and dandy because I was thinking through it myself and wondered what you think... :001_smile:

 

 

I don't agree with your brother's assessment, but I know a few people who do.

I also know a number of people who don't take it quite that far, but who do hate their work. They get up every weekday morning resenting their boss and their co-workers because they are spending *another* day doing a job they don't care about, for a company they don't care about.

I think it is sad to see people live like this, but it inspires me to give my boys a better education and to encourage them to find work they are passionate about.

My husband is a great example. He *loves* his job. He gets out of bed every single morning excited about the projects he has on his schedule for the day. He always talks about great things he can do to serve our clients better and looks forward to doing so.

That is the kind of success I wish for our two sons.

[BMW]

Thank you, Crissy! I heard a speaker recently who discussed that years and years ago a person's job was appreciated as much more than a way to earn money. You didn't used to go to work to trade hours for dollars, you believed in work and provided a service for an employer for the good of the community.

 

I remember watching my dad trade hours for dollars and thinking that I really didn't want to do that. Life has a purpose! I want my children to have a dream and goals and make a difference with their lives...

 

Sometimes, though, I lose sight of dreams and goals... particularly when I pay all the bills... I am greatly enouraged now to focus once more on the life I want to live, which has little to do with money...

[Happy]

Embrace the hardness of life. Let it energize you into being creative with your resources. Get your whole family involved in searching out new ways to save and cut corners. Pinch those pennies till they scream for mercy. Having a goal for all that scrimping helps, whether it is a Christmas fund or an oil bill. Meeting a goal is so satisfying.

 

 

 

:-)

 

THIS is going on my fridge right now...in big letters. Thanks for the challenge.

 

My oldest is 24. A few weeks ago, he was complaining about his cousin (younger by two years) J has nice car, J gets to do this, J gets to do that. It really ripped me. I told my son that J's decisions (his choices!!!!!) got him where he is today.

 

J chose to study instead of party in college.

J chose to stay on the right side of the law.

J chose to be on time to work so he didn't get fired.

J chose to work hard for his employers.

J chose to stay in college and get a degree

J chose to hang out with people who supported his goals.

J chose not to have s*x with his girlfriend until they were married

 

All of J's choices led him to having an education, nice job, nice car, and pretty wife (also with a degree, job, and car.) Together they've just bought a small house. The joyous innocense of their wedding was a delight to witness.

 

My son, the complainer, didn't show up for class, didn't stay in school, stole a stop sign and got caught, was late to a lot of jobs, so employers let him go first when the ax had to fall (when he was sixteen he had a $400/week job copying files in a bank. He mouthed off to the boss and got fired. My dh was unemployed at the time. Yet, my son didn't get the message.) hung out with known druggies, wrecked his car by driving recklessly, had s*x with his girlfriend and is now expecting a child. He is unemployed, with his little family living with us.

 

All of his choices led to this place and time. What he does with his choices from this point on will determine where he is in ten years. He can't afford school (and neither can we) but he could turn off the TV and READ something. He could start a small business of some sort. He could afford a few classes when he gets a job. However, he *wants* to have a victim attitude. Poor me--it's everyone else's fault. The day he figures out he made those choices is the day he grows up!

 

Neither my dh or I grew up with much at all. Dh's parents once had a house with a dirt floor--it had been a chicken coop at one time. He grew up poor, but was taught the essentialness of hard work. We've worked hard for what we have and have gotten kicked in the teeth a few times. But we've also had opportunities, too. Education, hard work, and a positive attitude really do make a difference in where you end up. I believe God has opened doors for my dh because of his attitude and work ethic. We've been able to start small home businesses to supplement our imcome over the years, so we are self starters.

 

Anyone who wants to improve themselves without a lot of money, should hit the local library...and leave John Grisham and Stephen King on the shelves. Reach for things that will make you mind grow. Dale Carnegie, Jay Conrad Levin, Zig Ziglar, Dave Ramsey....if a person did nothing but read biographies their minds and attitudes would improve.

 

Yes, our economic climate is tough. I was whining about it just the other day, but my whining is a lazy trap that I'm trying to avoid now. MY choices make my life. The government may make it harder or easier, but it begins with ME.

 

Climbing off my soapbox....

[Home'scool]

I was reading an article about the CEO of McDonalds. He started out as a assistant manager in 1979. And now he is the CEO. An example of the poor getting richer.

 

There are a lot of companies that will pay for college credits (or at least partially pay) - this is true even if you work in the mailroom. Terrible, horrible capitalistic companies that will help PAY for you to go to school. Go figure.

 

There are companies that will train you in-house and will give you raises based on how much training you complete. I worked for one straight out of college. I was too lazy to do the training ("too much work!!" my 22 year old brain cried) but then complained when my career track went stagnent 3 years into working for them. I'll never make that mistake again. This was an entry level job that I could have turned into a lot of different opportunities for myself. But I didn't work the system.

 

My nephew is going to join the Army. When he gets out he will have money to apply towards college. If he doesn't use it it can be transferred to his wife or his children.

 

My husband is going to a 2-week intensive management training seminar at Harvard that costs $30,000. His company is paying for it. He negotiated for that in place of a portion of his bonus. Why? Because it will make him more valuable within the company or to another company. Bonuses are spent but an education is never taken away. Part of me wants the $30k in my pocket (it wouldn't stay there for long :)), but I know that this will probably pay off in the future.

 

There is a ton of red tape and bureacracy and all that jazz, but there is also a lot of opportunities if you work the system. Grants, student loans, internships, employer 401K matching, employer tuition reimbursement, in-house management training .......

 

Take any opportunity that is either (a) an educational one or (b) a job that can further your education.

 

Only a rare few are lucky enough to be born Paris Hilton and just have money given to them. The rest of us have to work the system -- and you have to start early.

[lilbean05]

The whole slavery thing really bothers me, even when you explain your brother's definition. Slavery means NO FREEDOM. I typically don't get bent out of shape too much about these kinds of threads, but I really think that many people can be offended with you comparing your situation (or many people's situation) to that of slavery. Go read the book Beloved or the book To Kill A Mockingbird and then have your brother say that he is slave and suffering likes these people did. People in this country are not slaves to the government. No one is keeping you in a rat race that you feel like you can't get out of. Every single person in this country is given the right of choice. You can choose to change both your lifestyle and more importantly, your perspective on your lifestyle. You should be thrilled that you have a job, that you can pay the bills, that your kids do have food to eat, that you have shelter. I know it sounds harsh, but I can tell you from my own experience that changing your perspective on your situation will make you much more grateful for the things you do have. And really, you aren't a slave to anyone or any body of government.

 

As an aside, it really isn't a big deal if your teenagers can't drive. I didn't get my license until I was a sophomore in college when I could afford to buy my own junky car, teach myself how to drive stick shift (or drive period) in the parking lot, and then go get my license. It just isn't that big of a deal. You have the ability to be on the internet, and no one is cutting you off, limiting the sites you can visit, or anything like that. It just doesn't seem like slavery to me.

[BMW]

I am glad to hear that the slavery comparison bothers you. I asked what others thought about this concept, right? But, when you address me directly about this, shouldn't you pay attention to what I've been saying? I mentioned my brother's statement and views, which he holds currently. (If I read the book you recommend, how will that change my brother's mind? And, I have read one of them.) At the beginning of the thread I was feeling quite down about not having any spending money (none) and not being able to help my teens as they look to their futures. I do think a lot of American's are tired of scraping by... and I asked opinions about that. I received many great responses which encouraged me to rethink what I have to be thankful for and to consider the options and choices that we do have. Maybe you missed that part. My apologies go out to anyone who is offended by my bringing up this topic, it was to ask "What do you think of this statement?" and to allow others to critique where I am at with this concept myself. Did you not read when I posted that I am SO thankful to have a home and a comfy bed and food?

 

And, I agree, not driving certainly isn't slavery. I, too, didn't drive until my 2nd year of college. My dad wouldn't buy a car for me or pay for insurance (he was able to, but wanted me to learn the value, and I appreciate that) and it was more important for me to go to college than it was to drive... I pass that lesson on to my teens. But, it is a whole different ball game now than it was in the 80's. I was able to get a good job with benefits making well over min. wage and put myself through college. There's no way my kids can do what I did. The cost is too high and the wages too low. So, thank you home'scool, I love the encouragement to seek out those opportunities!! :001_smile:

[Crissy]

You didn't used to go to work to trade hours for dollars

 

I've not previously heard that phrase used, but it's perfect, BMW. Doesn't it illustrate *exactly* what so many people do these days?

 

I wonder when that began. And why do we continue? Is there such a focus on material wealth these days that we forget the value of personal satisfaction? Of serving others? Of the intrinsic value of these lives we are living?

 

Ours is not a society of contentment, is it?

[Rhonda in TX]

I'm not sure why you think your children will be stuck in the same cycle.

 

My mom came from a very poor background. She worked hard and graduated from high school a year early so that she could get a job and get away from that lifestyle. She was a secretary and lived with a couple of other girls in an apartment 'til she married my dad. My dad was in the Air Force. His background was a little better off, but his dad was an oil field worker, so they weren't rich, either. When he was about 30, he left the military and went to college. He became a school teacher.

 

My MIL and FIL both came from families where nobody got a college education and you scraped by being a hairdresser or some other blue collar job. (NOTHING wrong with that!!) My in-laws wanted more, so they put themselves through college. No monetary help from parents because their parents couldn't afford it. They also became school teachers. They had some lean years, but are now fine.

 

I went to a private university that wasn't cheap. While there, I knew several people who were putting themselves through college, completely on their own.

 

I just don't see why people think you can't break the cycle. I'm not saying it's easy, but it can be done.

[Crissy]

I just don't see why people think you can't break the cycle. I'm not saying it's easy, but it can be done.

 

I don't know how many people believe it CANNOT be done, but I do know that sometimes the frustration and the pressure can weigh on a person to the point that it doesn't feel, at that moment, as if she can get out from under it all.

[lilbean05]

I am glad to hear that the slavery comparison bothers you. I asked what others thought about this concept, right? But, when you address me directly about this, shouldn't you pay attention to what I've been saying? I mentioned my brother's statement and views, which he holds currently. (If I read the book you recommend, how will that change my brother's mind? And, I have read one of them.) At the beginning of the thread I was feeling quite down about not having any spending money (none) and not being able to help my teens as they look to their futures. I do think a lot of American's are tired of scraping by... and I asked opinions about that. I received many great responses which encouraged me to rethink what I have to be thankful for and to consider the options and choices that we do have. Maybe you missed that part. My apologies go out to anyone who is offended by my bringing up this topic, it was to ask "What do you think of this statement?" and to allow others to critique where I am at with this concept myself. Did you not read when I posted that I am SO thankful to have a home and a comfy bed and food?

 

And, I agree, not driving certainly isn't slavery. I, too, didn't drive until my 2nd year of college. My dad wouldn't buy a car for me or pay for insurance (he was able to, but wanted me to learn the value, and I appreciate that) and it was more important for me to go to college than it was to drive... I pass that lesson on to my teens. But, it is a whole different ball game now than it was in the 80's. I was able to get a good job with benefits making well over min. wage and put myself through college. There's no way my kids can do what I did. The cost is too high and the wages too low. So, thank you home'scool, I love the encouragement to seek out those opportunities!! :001_smile:

 

I didn't miss any part. :) Promise! I read the entire thread, and some people I agree with and others I don't. My point is, why bring up the slavery thing to begin with? I would think it is irrelevent. That the majority of people can't afford the luxuries we would like has nothing to do with slavery. Perhaps you could say "I am sick and tired of not being able to afford things for my family like I want to" just like you told me in your previous post. I say this with a smile, really. And I would give you a hug and say "Geeze, I know, it stinks, but it will be okay and this too shall pass and let's look on the bright side." Or we could commiserate together about how we have to both cut corners left and right.

 

You asked what people thought about the statement and so I gave you my opinion. You can copy it and put it in an email and CC it to your brother. :)

[BMW]

Thanks gray9965, I am enjoying the smiles... I think my brother's line of thinking and the recent "dissatisfaction" with the government that's been voiced has affected my perspective on my own lifestyle. I was really moved by (drat's am not remembering the name of the book!) the book about the young African prince who was captured, along with his sister and taken to the states and sold into slavery... how he kept going to the market place, for years, looking for her... and later realized that he'd been looking for a young girl and that she'd have aged over time... I do understand your perspective, too. :) Hey, maybe we're setting an example on how to disagree and look at our opinions and be nice! (That is not said towards ANYONE in particular, really!! I rarely get in a "discussion" on these boards!)

[Rhonda in TX]

That's my point, though. It can be done. To talk as if it just can't be done is self-defeating. Many, many children go on to have a better life (financially) than their parents. When I grew up, my parents never spoke of "if" you go to college. It was "when" you go to college. We talked about getting a degree that was a wise decision for future income potential. My husband's family was the same way. We're raising our children with the same expectations. (This is not to say that if our children chose a different path, we would not support it.)

 

For our families, it took one generation to break the cycle. Having seen it in action, and the fruits of that, I must look at it differently than others do.