What do they teach in the rigorous upscale NYC private schools?

[HappyGrace]

I was reading an article on how they're so hard to get into (elementary age), they're VERY rigorous even from early on, and many of them funnel kids into Ivy League schools. I was just wondering what kind of school practices/curriculum they are doing in these elementary schools-anyone have any info/links?

 

(x-post K-8 board)

[Snickerdoodle]

You mean this?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pppEdSmTkB4

[HappyGrace]

The article I read was like that video, but then I was wondering what they are teaching in the actual elementary schools there. Apparently they are very rigorous and do prepare the students well for Ivy League schools.

[OrganicAnn]

Many of them have websites and will list their curriculum. It may only be a brief summary, but you can get an idea.

[chiguirre]

I went to Penn with many pricey private school graduates. It's not so much what they teach while you're there, it's the stamp of approval you get for having gotten into X, Y or Z school. I went to an okay, not great, ps and I wasn't in the least bit disadvantaged compared to my friends from Andover and Exeter (these aren't NY schools, they're the most prestigious NE boarding schools).

 

To be entirely honest, the classes I took at Wharton weren't actually any more challenging than the classes I took at the Instituto de Estudios Superiores de Administracion (which is well ranked among Latam schools, but is nowhere near Wharton's prestige). At a certain point, macroeconomics is macroeconomics, and you have to learn the basics no matter where you go to school. The real advantage of the Ivies (and their feeders) is the resume factor and the alumni support network. The academics are solid, but they're not an order of magnitude better, by any stretch of the imagination.

 

As a hser, you can provide as good an education as Andover or Exeter if you're willing to look for resources to outsource subjects that are not your strong suit. You can find lots of AP opportunities and your students will have the time to pursue their interests and accumulate enough interesting experiences to bolster their applications. I do think that you need to ensure that you're following the AP guidelines in high school in order to be able to compete with prep school graduates.

[Kathleen in VA]

Gwyneth Paltrow went to The Spence School in Manhattan. http://www.spenceschool.org

 

They do not list their curriculum but do outline what they cover.

[LibraryLover]

It's not just about what they teach.

Edited September 2, 2009 by LibraryLover

[HappyGrace]

Wow-these were really helpful and interesting! I thought it was kind of humorous that Spence has them studying landfills in sci in 3rd grade :001_huh:

 

chiguirre-loved to hear your experiences-thanks!

[LibraryLover]

I went to Penn with many pricey private school graduates. It's not so much what they teach while you're there, it's the stamp of approval you get for having gotten into X, Y or Z school. I went to an okay, not great, ps and I wasn't in the least bit disadvantaged compared to my friends from Andover and Exeter (these aren't NY schools, they're the most prestigious NE boarding schools).

 

To be entirely honest, the classes I took at Wharton weren't actually any more challenging than the classes I took at the Instituto de Estudios Superiores de Administracion (which is well ranked among Latam schools, but is nowhere near Wharton's prestige). At a certain point, macroeconomics is macroeconomics, and you have to learn the basics no matter where you go to school. The real advantage of the Ivies (and their feeders) is the resume factor and the alumni support network. The academics are solid, but they're not an order of magnitude better, by any stretch of the imagination.

 

As a hser, you can provide as good an education as Andover or Exeter if you're willing to look for resources to outsource subjects that are not your strong suit. You can find lots of AP opportunities and your students will have the time to pursue their interests and accumulate enough interesting experiences to bolster their applications. I do think that you need to ensure that you're following the AP guidelines in high school in order to be able to compete with prep school graduates.

 

Oh, how times have changed.

 

I know many kids from these private schools, with perfect SATs, who did not get into Ivies.

 

Living in Kansas or Alabama with perfect SATs is a plus.

 

These schools are done with the 'perfect' eastern prep school kids.

 

Unless one is very rich or very famous, (child of Maria & Arnold, Donald Trump, or Caroline Kennedy etc) you need to get in the queue.

 

At any rate, it was never just about the curricula, although some of these schools have/had fabulous ones. The courses a child is exposed to at an eastern prep school is offered is really quite astounding. I would not be hsing if I could afford these schools. And it's not about getting my child into an Ivy, it's about exposure and interesting professors who motivate. I've seen the course offerings from Exeter, as an example, and they are extraordinary.

Edited September 2, 2009 by LibraryLover

[HappyGrace]

Thanks, Laurie, for mentioning that. I'm just so intrigued with the whole concept, and interested in how positive aspects of it can be related to homeschooling.

[Starr]

I was a nurse at one. In the elementary grades I noticed that there was a big focus on writing and they also started foreign language early. These are things we also do at home but aren't always done in public school.

[HappyGrace]

Must have been a cool job, Starr! Thanks for chiming in! I do think the homeschool trend of teaching Latin especially is excellent preparation for their future in so many ways.

[elizabeth]

Hmm Only the most rigourous Jesuit school in town comes even close with regard to the coursework required at Choate http://www.choate.edu/academics/index.aspx the drop down menu permits one to readily peruse the course offerings. It looks nothing like the sad sack public school in our city with regard to content, expectations or breadth of coverage. While I agree that it is not merely what they teach but moreso how they teach it seems that the rigor far surpasses that of the local ps. The whole package including the intense competitive mileu, the breeding , the extracurriculars that are more social and or/ slightly philanthropic in nature that also seem to define these students. It is hard to put into words but in law school I could pick the students from the Ivy League or Seven Sisters in two minutes. Just that hard to define edge. I must say that one of my bench mates happened to have attended Brown and was saddened to see that the" mean girls" she dealt with at Brown had their dopplegangers at a Jesuit law school in the Midwest. She was a superbly funny, generous woman with a dedication to excellence in academics that I had not seen before. And she loved frozen ho-ho's for their unique restorative powers after late study sessions. They do go nicely with a cold beer. :lol:

[Kathleen in VA]

I checked out the Emma Willard School a while back when it was listed in the credits of a movie as the set. I can't remember the name of the movie - it had Kevin Kline as a teacher at a boys' school. Jane Fonda went there.

 

http://www.emmawillard.org/

[chiguirre]

Oh, how times have changed.

 

I know many kids from these private schools, with perfect SATs, who did not get into Ivies.

 

Living in Kansas or Alabama with perfect SATs is a plus.

 

 

They haven't really changed. My friends were at Penn instead of Harvard or Yale because they didn't have stratospheric SATs/GPAs. I had a much easier time getting in from a small town school in western PA than my classmates from NY or NE because so few people tried for the Ivies. I was even admitted early probably because I added geographic diversity to the class.

 

It's true that prep schools offer lots of great classes, but it's a bit like college, you don't have time to take all of them. You get a few extraordinary classes mixed in with all the requirements you have to fulfill. I really do believe it's possible for a hser with good resources and moxie to do as good a job as a prep school, but it's a lot of work of course.

[LibraryLover]

They haven't really changed. My friends were at Penn instead of Harvard or Yale because they didn't have stratospheric SATs/GPAs. I had a much easier time getting in from a small town school in western PA than my classmates from NY or NE because so few people tried for the Ivies. I was even admitted early probably because I added geographic diversity to the class.

 

It's true that prep schools offer lots of great classes, but it's a bit like college, you don't have time to take all of them. You get a few extraordinary classes mixed in with all the requirements you have to fulfill. I really do believe it's possible for a hser with good resources and moxie to do as good a job as a prep school, but it's a lot of work of course.

 

 

These schools are looking for excellence, but also for geographical diversity. It is what it is. I think that is a good thing. Prep schools are no longer sure things when it comes to the Ivies. Geographical diversity is more important than eastern prep 'feeder schools' which is what the OP was asking about. (Not that you can be a slacker).

Edited September 2, 2009 by LibraryLover

[Nancy Ann]

My cousin became a doctor through Harvard. He lived in a small town in North Dakota and went to the public school there. His mother and father were very supportive of his education..not pushy but just always found outlets and for him to do things and be active. He recieved scholarships most of the way through. He is now a cancer research doctor at the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota.

[sunshine]

:)I wish I had a brain cell to remember the homeschooler whose 4 children all got a full ride to Harvard. She lists the curriculum she used in her book, wait I will google it.....Micki and David Colfax wrote "Homeschooling for Excellence". try that. I kept saying I was going to but senior year came sooner than I expected. Although I did get a nice letter from Harvard telling me that they did not expect us to be able to contribute to my son's tuition, they had programs and scholarships for that. I thought that was sweet. They like homeschoolers. If only to try to convert them:tongue_smilie:

[LibraryLover]

If one could see the fantastic programming happening in some of these schools, one might be tempted to not hs. (lol Kidding!) But one might understand what some privileged children do get.

 

My older children attended an eastern private school (not religiously based). They started Latin in 6th grade and the Ancients in 3rd. It was very trivium-based. There were things going on in that school that would make me cry with pleasure. It was all about the love of learning. Tuition plus fees, aside. :D

 

Of course families can hs without spending this sort of money. Yet there is good education to be had if a family is invested and has the money. It's not the only way, obviously, and thank the stars, but it's not a way that doesn't have some merit.

Edited September 2, 2009 by LibraryLover

[LibraryLover]

:)I wish I had a brain cell to remember the homeschooler whose 4 children all got a full ride to Harvard. She lists the curriculum she used in her book, wait I will google it.....Micki and David Colfax wrote "Homeschooling for Excellence". try that. I kept saying I was going to but senior year came sooner than I expected. Although I did get a nice letter from Harvard telling me that they did not expect us to be able to contribute to my son's tuition, they had programs and scholarships for that. I thought that was sweet. They like homeschoolers. If only to try to convert them:tongue_smilie:

 

I would argue that a divergent path is more appealing to some/most schools. (As long as excellence and drive is a component).

 

The days of feeder prep schools being the ticket is over.

[Snickerdoodle]

If you listen to the first three parts of this JTG, he explains what he discovers about private elite boarding schools.

 

[LibraryLover]

If you listen to the first three parts of this JTG, he explains what he discovers about private elite boarding schools.

 

[/QUOT

E]

 

 

I'm guessing it's all about sex, drugs, & rock & roll? That rich kids are without merit?

[Snickerdoodle]

I'm guessing it's all about sex, drugs, & rock & roll? That rich kids are without merit?

 

Nope.

[LibraryLover]

Nope.

 

I am not a Gatto fan. (HS heretic I am! lol :D ) I'll check it out. Sorry to have jumped the gun.

Edited September 2, 2009 by LibraryLover

[LibraryLover]

He's talking more about wealth and privilege than he is about education. We already know that children whose mothers have college educations 'do better' than children whose mothers did not go to college. All of the men he speaks about had educated mothers.

 

A father's education matter far less. Although a father's money matters quite a lot.

Edited September 2, 2009 by LibraryLover

[Snickerdoodle]

He's talking more about wealth and privilege than he is about education. We already know that children whose mothers have college educations 'do better' than children whose mothers did not go to college. All of the men he speaks about had educated mothers.

 

A father's education matter far less. Although a father's money matters quite a lot.

 

:confused:

 

I took something very different than that from the talk. He opines about the 14 things elite schools do that public schools don't. I think he makes some very good points.

[LibraryLover]

:confused:

 

I took something very different than that from the talk. He opines about the 14 things elite schools do that public schools don't. I think he makes some very good points.

 

 

Oh, hese schools can offer fab programming and opportunity. No question there. The course offerings are amazing and individual attention is given. Those things matter.

 

Wealthy children have more opportunity from the beginning. We can count the number of modern presidents from less privileged backgrounds on one hand. Clinton and Obama come to mind.

 

LOL People could run with that.

[Reya]

Hmm Only the most rigourous Jesuit school in town comes even close with regard to the coursework required at Choate http://www.choate.edu/academics/index.aspx

 

It looks a LOT like what I'm going/going to do!

[Reya]

He's talking more about wealth and privilege than he is about education. We already know that children whose mothers have college educations 'do better' than children whose mothers did not go to college. All of the men he speaks about had educated mothers.

 

A father's education matter far less. Although a father's money matters quite a lot.

 

No, he's not. These are his points, things that these schools teach that public schools don't:

 

1. Theory of human nature.

2. Strong experience with the act of literacy--writing and public speaking.

3. Insight into the major institutional forms--details into the ideas that drive them. Emphasis on argument.

4. Repeated exercises in the forms of good manners and politeness based on the utter truth that politeness and civility is the basis for all future relationships.

5. Independent work.

6. Energetic physical sports aren’t a luxury or a way to blow off of steam but are absolutely the only way to give grace to the human presence.

7. A complete theory of access to any workplace or any person.

8. Responsibility as an utterly important part of education.

9. An arrival at a personal code of standards--behaviour, production, morality.

10. Familiarity with the master creations in all arts--at ease with the arts.

11. The power of accurate observation and recording--realistic drawing.

12. The ability to deal with challenges of all sorts.

13. A habit of caution and reasoning to conclusions.

14. Constant development and testing of judgment.

 

I stink at 7. Really, really stink. I can/am handling the rest.

[Reya]

It looks a LOT like what I'm going/going to do!

 

 

(Except their math/sci is really weak...)

[LibraryLover]

:confused:

 

I took something very different than that from the talk. He opines about the 14 things elite schools do that public schools don't. I think he makes some very good points.

 

I went a little astray from his talk. lol I do think, too, that some public schools can do some things very well. It might be rare, but it happens. I can think of some very fine public schools. (Really). Brookline High in Brookline MA, for one, and Weston High, in MA, as another. Again, you're talking about parents with education and a bit of money. http://www.westonschools.org/ http://bhs.brookline.k12.ma.us/

 

There are some decent points,and some I value, but in the end, the education of the mother is the number one predictor of educational 'outcome' for kids. Few of the children in these schools are poor, or have mothers without some sort of education.

 

I am not saying, not at all, that a great school can't help a child learn and do 'great' things. My kids are not currently getting all that is offered in those schools. So it's probably good that I don't have any desire for my child to become say, a Dick Cheney (one of the successful people Gatto notes in the talk) , or president. lol SLACKER!

 

Not that I wouldn't be pleased if my child attened one of these schools and got everything out of it that they could. I'd prefer a day school over a boarding school, however.

Edited September 2, 2009 by LibraryLover
typos

[Garga]

No, he's not. These are his points, things that these schools teach that public schools don't:

 

1. Theory of human nature.

2.Strong experience with the act of literacy--writing and public speaking.

3.Insight into the major institutional forms--details into the ideas that drive them. Emphasis on argument.

4.Repeated exercises in the forms of good manners and politeness based on the utter truth that politeness and civility is the basis for all future relationships.

5.Independent work.

6.Energetic physical sports aren’t a luxury or a way to blow off of steam but are absolutely the only way to give grace to the human presence.

7.A complete theory of access to any workplace or any person.

8.Responsibility as an utterly important part of education.

9.An arrival at a personal code of standards--behaviour, production, morality.

10.Familiarity with the master creations in all arts--at ease with the arts.

11.The power of accurate observation and recording--realistic drawing.

12.The ability to deal with challenges of all sorts.

13.A habit of caution and reasoning to conclusions.

14.Constant development and testing of judgment.

 

I stink at 7. Really, really stink. I can/am handling the rest.

 

Ahhh-exactly. These are the things that rich, cultured people are supposed to have/do.

 

Think: wealthy people in a Jane Austen novel. The rich people in the movie Titanic. Gatsby's. The Kennedy's going sailing. They teach a refined way of being. The way they do "sports" and collect art (according to the above) is specifically taught. I think it's why old monied people in the past would not like "new" money. Because the "old" monied people have a completely separate culture taught to them. And the new money brings a new culture that isn't as "refined."

 

I ran into a little of this at a baby shower for a friend. We grew up middle class. My friend married into upper (very upper) middle class. I hadn't quite "got it" until the baby shower. I showed up with a plastic tablecloth, plastic confetti to put on the tablecloth, and a plastic veggie tray (I was helping set up). The hostess (who had married down from rich to upper middle class) very politely took my plastic table cloth and plastic veggie tray and very graciously pointed out that there was a lovely linen cloth already available and maybe we could move these delicious veggies onto a pewter tray she happened to have that would be just wonderful with these colorful veggies. (I hid the plastic confetti.)

 

She was unfailingly polite about using the linen and pewter, by the way. But her mother was married to a president of a South American country and she was used to a higher standard than plastic. In fact, her graciousness about it is what most made me realize that she had been taught a different way of being from me. That absolute politeness.

 

Regarding the learning about human nature: I have heard that at the ivy league schools, you learn how to be political--how to kiss the babies and shake hands. You learn what drives people and events so that you can learn to control (manipulate) these things (if you become a politician or leader of a company.)

 

Well, my response is disjointed, but JTG's points make sense that these are the things deliberately taught at ivy league schools.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Garga

[Renee in NC]

(Except their math/sci is really weak...)

 

Seriously? What are you going to offer that they don't? Their math offerings go well beyond Calculus and include things that you rarely see at high schools. Science offerings are also very advanced.

 

Or are my expectations just too low?:lol:

[TravelingChris]

Clinton and Obama come to mind.

 

Clinton, yes. Obama, no. Obama came from a priveleged background. His parents were highly educated eventually and he went to private schools and to private colleges and universities.

[angela in ohio]

Seriously? What are you going to offer that they don't? Their math offerings go well beyond Calculus and include things that you rarely see at high schools. Science offerings are also very advanced.

 

Or are my expectations just too low?:lol:

 

I'm drooling over their math courses. I will have to send my dd to the big public university (not the CC) in town in high school to get anything close to some of those courses.

 

ETA: Thanks to the PP who gave this link. Some of the literature classes are very interesting, and I think would be great for HS.

Edited September 2, 2009 by angela in ohio

[LibraryLover]

Clinton and Obama come to mind.

 

Clinton, yes. Obama, no. Obama came from a priveleged background. His parents were highly educated eventually and he went to private schools and to private colleges and universities.

 

He went to Punahou in HI for a time, which is a private school, although we don't know if he received any financial aid. (Do we?) He attended Columbia as an undergrad, and then Harvard Law. His mother was well educated. No doubt about that. He wasn't a Kennedy or a Bush, so, as I said, less privileged, not without privilege. Obama does illustrate how much the education of a mother matters to a child.

Edited September 2, 2009 by LibraryLover
spelling error

[4kiddies]

Here is a link to the Sidwell school. http://www.sidwell.edu/lower_school/academics/index.aspx

[HappyGrace]

I agree with the 14 points-that it is almost more a "culture" that they somehow teach at the upper crust schools-like Garga said, and like someone earlier in the thread said, you can tell these people have gone to these schools in two minutes. I'd never seen those points laid out like that before and it really got me thinking.

 

The content truly does seem fantastic though! I'm enjoying the links to the schools. I thought the Choate history was very similar to what we do in classical approach-both chronological and thematic, primary sources, etc.

[FriedClams]

I went to a small private New England boarding school for high school, then on to one of our nation's military academies for college. Granted this was YEARS ago (LOL!!) but what I am taking away from my experience and applying to my kids is the following:

 

Pros -

Diversity - ethnic, racial, social - There were really no boundaries at my school other than day v. boarder, and that could easily be overcome. Anyone could be friends and you'd see the strangest combinations of people together hanging out. I had 3 roommates - a cool Jewish girl from NYC (I was a nice Irish Catholic from Boston), a neat girl from Thailand and a girl whose dad was an international banker and they lived all over the world. It was great. I was friends with kids with handicaps, mixed race kids, non English speakers, rich kids, scholarship kids (like me!!), kids of different religions, you name it. It wasn't perfect, but it really was not cliquey. The only downside of that mix was my complete annoyance with "diversity" programs that were so fake and lame and really serve to make divisions and separations.

 

Indepence - I have nearly lived on my own since 14. It helped my family relationships, I grew, I was challenged, it was great for me. No slacking when you are responsible for all your academic work, extra curriculars, applications, sports, laundry, buying snacks and toiletries, etc...

 

Liberal Arts Emphasis - I came out with great reading, writing, and thinking skills. My love of history was breed in 9th grade. I picked my major in college based on that 9th grade class and the teacher. We read great books and had killer summer reading lists.

 

Mentors - I had some AMAZING people that taught me and mentored me. I will always hold them dearly. They were like a second family to me. As a Christian I am reminded that mentors are SO important and we need to be wise about who is influencing or teens.

 

Arts -My school was an arty place and I loved that. Theater, visual arts, etc We didn’t have a band which I still think is odd!

 

Sports - We were required to be on a team or in an intramural sport 3 seasons a year. It was great for health and fun.

 

CONS -

Science and Math were weak. We didn't have AP classes in math and science and my teachers in the levels weren't the best. I paid DEARLY when I got to the Acadmey for my deficiencies.

 

Spiritual - I was not a believer at the time, but I would be very apprehensive about sending my kids to a boarding school now. It wasn't the faculty that would concern me (ours was TREMENDOUS) just the vast diversity of ideas and the searching to fit in and find your place as a teenage. Again - mentors can have SUCH an influence, and I would like to watch and monitor those relationships as my kids grow in their faith. As I grow as a homeschooler and believer, I see that raising my kids is about so much more than education. At this point I will not sacrifice their character for education.

 

In short, some of the things I value the most from my education would be the hardest to recreate as a homeschooler. The culture of the school, the diversity, the independence. It would be tough - but I think real life experiences, travel, living a life plugged into the communities around us - they can teach and foster a lot of the same things. Academically - provide challenge, make your kids work, stretch them - and you’ll pretty much be duplicating that experience.

[st_claire]

I guess I am the exception here. Even if I could easily afford the tuitions, I would not send my child to a prep school, certainly not a US one. If I *had* to send my child to a private school I would send them to a Swiss one.

 

Academic wise, anything they can teach I can teach or get a grad student to teach.

 

Socially, they teach eliteness, a sense of entitlement and cautiousness. I can teach a sense of duty, responsiblity, and confidence to try new things. I can expose my child to diversity far beyond that of a school. I can change and adapt the curriculum and its pace to suit a unique individual.

 

I have full confidence that I can provide a far superior education to any "school" setting worldwide.

[Laura Corin]

I went to Penn with many pricey private school graduates. It's not so much what they teach while you're there, it's the stamp of approval you get for having gotten into X, Y or Z school.

 

Private schools are common in the UK, and the government brought out a report concerning what advantages they offered. Apart from resources (swimming pools, swanky labs, etc.) and more individual attention, the report highlighted a kind of social polish that the schools provide, caused by high expectations, opportunities for character-building experiences and mixing with other high flyers.

 

Laura

[justamouse]

I grew up in a prep town, and the difference between PS and prep is immediate. I also grew up around that old $, but not having it. (Mom is BFF with very old $).That list was bred into their genetics, I swear. Nouveau riche also carries differently. NR hasn't made it out a generation to understand thier responsibility to the community (and the world). That's a broad brushstroke, I understand, but I'm saying on a whole.

 

It's the expanse of their cultural understanding.

 

My son's GF is American, born in Thailand, raised in Italy, and lived the last 6 years in India (and now back in Italy). I cannot begin to describe the utter politeness of their mother, and the understanding of her children. They were citizens of the world-the same with the old $.

 

Please understand that I am not saying that America is bad-not at all. There is no where else I'd rather live, but I for one am getting my kids to get used to the idea of some study abroad, and giving them a deep liberal arts edu so they are prepared for it. Internships, travel.

 

That list is brilliant.

[kalanamak]

.

Edited September 3, 2009 by kalanamak
whoops, someone already posted those 14

[Wildiris]

More interviews by Gatto that include the YouTube Elite Private Boarding Schools interview.

 

http://www.edflix.org/gatto.htm~Dead Link

 

Thanks for the original link~hummmm~how do Gatto's 14 points integrate into homeschooling? For a homeschool parent to offer the elite opportunities is a tall order indeed.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Wildiris
link

[swimmermom3]

HappyGrace, thank you for starting this thread.

[swimmermom3]

Thanks, Laurie, for mentioning that. I'm just so intrigued with the whole concept, and interested in how positive aspects of it can be related to homeschooling.

 

HappyGrace, you've got my curiosity running all over the place. Where do you hope to take what you have gathered here? How are you thinking of implementing it? I hope this is okay it ask.:001_huh:

[Reya]

Seriously? What are you going to offer that they don't? Their math offerings go well beyond Calculus and include things that you rarely see at high schools. Science offerings are also very advanced.

 

Or are my expectations just too low?:lol:

 

Real Analysis is the only thing beyond calc that they have, and that's going to be a super watered-down version simply because of the length and the sequence that comes before. The other things are "side" subjects--enrichment and fun, but not really any more mathematically sophisticated.

 

We're using IMACS, Gelfand, and the Lex Anneli library after we run out of Singapore. Kids are gifted, DS6 is mathy, and I'm mathy. :-)

 

And in science: My old public high school with about 30% free/reduced lunch had offerings as good.