S/O of swine flu thread -- pertussis

[Halftime Hope]

Just wanted to comment on what another poster said about pertussis (whooping cough) outbreaks everywhere. Apparently there are many cases of it in the DFW area, and I may be one of them. The doc says if you have a persistent cough, non-productive (not juicy), with coughing spasms, worse at night, with a clear x-ray, consider it pertussis, given what's going on. He explained that childhood immunity from vax wears off by middle age. :glare:

 

Treatment is simple: 2 weeks of erythromycin, or 1 week of biaxin, plus an inhaler for the additional weeks til the cough stops. He said I needed to stay home (it's very contagious and can be very serious for some folks) for the duration of the antibiotics, and then I wouldn't be contagious, although the cough would persist for some additional weeks.

 

Consider this my very own personal PSA, cuz I had no idea. :)

 

He also wanted me to do a TDap, but that's not happening.

 

If you want more info, google adult pertussis.

 

HTH

[The Governess]

I think I had pertussis a few years back, actually, but my dr. just diagnosed me with bronchitis. I had a cough for 3 months, and every so often would have a coughing fit where I could not stop coughing and it was hard to catch my breath. Some days I would hardly cough all day and then I would have a 10 minute coughing session out of the blue. It was awful. Afterward, I did some research and learned that adults usually lose their immunity to pertussis, that most infected adults don't even know that they have it, and that it is misdiagnosed all the time.

 

If I were delaying vaccinations (which I didn't but would consider for any future children), I would not delay this one, just because previously vaccinated adults can have a mild version of it, not know they have it, and easily pass it on to an unvaccinated baby. Scary stuff.

 

It's also been called the 100 days cough....for good reason. :001_smile:

 

Thanks for posting this info!

[Melissa in Australia]

whooping cough is going around here as well. my mother was in direct contact through her work with 2 people with whooping cough just the other day.

[lighthouseacademy]

Thing is that the antibiotics won't help you AT ALL and once you are coughing, you are no longer contagious as the coughing is a result of the bacterial damage in the lungs. This is why a positive diagnosis is hard- the culture has to be done when the person is feeling sick like a cold rather than when coughing.

[Jennifer in MI]

I had it when I was pregnant with my third. I'd have these spasms where I'd just keep coughing for 10 minutes or so. Then, I wouldn't cough all day, but would have one bad bought that would make me nearly throw up. I was not treated, because by the time it was diagnosed, it was too late. I coughed for 2 months or so.

 

My older one was vaccinated, but my second was only partially vaccinated. He ended up getting it at 2 1/2 years. It wasn't fun, but it's nice knowing he won't get it for the rest of his life!

[Jann in TX]

My cough lasted for 4 months. It was BAD BAD BAD. I was totally miserable for weeks.

 

I would recommend a booster to prevent this one--it is so dangerous--especially for young children and the elderly.

[Garga]

Once you get it, can you get it again? I wasn't dx'd, but I think I had it about 7 years ago when I coughed for 3 months straight. It wasn't fun!

[jlovebaker]

of whooping cough. Went to 3 docs for me and the kids before my friend, a pediatrician, diagnosed me and the three kids (age 4, 2, 2 at the time).

 

Cough is very distinctive ... I couldn't laugh for months or I'd go into a fit and very importantly - cough medicine does nothing because it is a cough in the throat, not chest! You also get a strange wheezing sound during a coughing fit which sounds like a seal ... Zithromax took care of it immediately.

 

I'm sort of shocked still that the earlier docs didn't diagnose us after hearing our coughs - so different than any other cough. At that point though, it was still unheard of - hadn't resurfaced yet - about 8 years ago.

[Mommyof4ks]

Thanks for the reminder. We have outbreaks here a couple of times a year. I wonder if this is what one of my mom's co-workers has now that you mention it. Oh, crud. My immune compromised son was with my mom yesterday. Off to call the doc. Ick, ick ick!!!

[Lovedtodeath]

I had it when I was pregnant with my third. I'd have these spasms where I'd just keep coughing for 10 minutes or so. Then, I wouldn't cough all day, but would have one bad bought that would make me nearly throw up. I was not treated, because by the time it was diagnosed, it was too late. I coughed for 2 months or so.

 

My older one was vaccinated, but my second was only partially vaccinated. He ended up getting it at 2 1/2 years. It wasn't fun, but it's nice knowing he won't get it for the rest of his life!

How will I know/what do I do if my baby gets it? He is only partially immunized.

[Pajama Mama]

You guys are freaking me out. Dd8 has not been vaccinated for pertussis. Ds9 has severe neuro problems that started between 4-6 mos. The neuro that we were seeing didn't think the vaccinations caused ds's problems but said they could have been a catalyst. Pertussis was one that was warned to possibly cause neuro problems so we didn't give her it. We were so terrified of that happening to dd. Dd has had her vacs spread out over longer periods of time but no pertussis. She can't get a booster until age 10-I think. The past years I have panicked whenever she started coughing. I guess I have to worry even more this year.

[Corraleno]

My DS11 never had the pertussis vax either. Should I have him get it now??? Also, DH has never had either the vaccine or the disease ~ is there any point in adults getting vaxed?

 

Jackie

[EKS]

Of all the vaccines, pertussis is one that I would not skip. My mother had whooping cough when she was 5 and it was not pretty.

Edited August 31, 2009 by EKS

[TravelingChris]

Pertussis is more common but both distemper and tetanus are more serious. Tetanus is around in the natural environment and is an aneorobic bacteria which is why you need to get a tetanus shot if you haven't had one recently and get certain type of cuts or puncture wounds. It is a very serious disease.

 

Distemper is also a potentially deadly disease that is unfortunately happening more often, both with people refusing vaccinations and with immigrant populations.

[jlovebaker]

and who doesn't like to breath regularly? But we didn't go to the hospital or worse ... and I had young kids who all got it with me. If they have trouble breathing for a long time and a funny wheezing, go to the doctor or hospital. I think they're better recognizing the symptoms now ... it was unheard of 8 years ago but now it's all over the papers.

 

We had to self-diagnose so don't be afraid to do that if necessary but don't panic either. It's not a severe burn or scarlet fevor and yes we've had both ... sigh! If you have a really young child do take care of it quickly though.

[Lovedtodeath]

Pertussis is more common but both distemper and tetanus are more serious. Tetanus is around in the natural environment and is an aneorobic bacteria which is why you need to get a tetanus shot if you haven't had one recently and get certain type of cuts or puncture wounds. It is a very serious disease.

 

Distemper is also a potentially deadly disease that is unfortunately happening more often, both with people refusing vaccinations and with immigrant populations.

It is probably totally me, but this post just hit me wrong. My lil guy gets seriously ill with every vaccination. We tried spacing them out, etc. He throws up because he can't breath. I didn't take his reaction seriously enough and finally the nurse figured out that he should not have any immunizations.

[Perry]

Distemper is also a potentially deadly disease that is unfortunately happening more often, both with people refusing vaccinations and with immigrant populations.

I think you mean diphtheria. ;)

 

It's very rare in the US; something like 60 cases in the last 30 years. It's a vaccine success story. There have been large epidemics elsewhere in the world.

[DarlaS]

Pertussis is more common but both distemper and tetanus are more serious. Tetanus is around in the natural environment and is an aneorobic bacteria which is why you need to get a tetanus shot if you haven't had one recently and get certain type of cuts or puncture wounds. It is a very serious disease.

 

Distemper is also a potentially deadly disease that is unfortunately happening more often, both with people refusing vaccinations and with immigrant populations.

 

Do you mean diptheria? Humans can't get Distemper as far as I know...

[sweetbasil]

Pertussis is more common but both distemper and tetanus are more serious. Tetanus is around in the natural environment and is an aneorobic bacteria which is why you need to get a tetanus shot if you haven't had one recently and get certain type of cuts or puncture wounds. It is a very serious disease.

 

Distemper is also a potentially deadly disease that is unfortunately happening more often, both with people refusing vaccinations and with immigrant populations.

 

Do you mean diptheria? It's actually incredibly rare. I don't believe there's been a death from it since 1999 (and there was only 1 death that year) and infection rates have been steadily decreasing. The rates were in a free fall long before the vaccine was introduced.

 

As far as the unvaccinated/immigrant population statement, from what I've researched, vaccination rates in Mexico are actually higher than they are here in the States. Additionally, vaccination does not prevent transmission of Diptheria or Pertussis (and Tetanus isn't contagious obviously), so the unvaxed population is not responsible for spreading it.

 

Conversely, a quick search of VAERS for 2007 shows 83 deaths associated with the DTaP, 57 of those in children under 6 months of age. The CDC states that only 10% of vaccine reactions are reported.

 

DTaP is THE MOST highly reactive vaccine given to children.

 

The WHO states that yearly in THE ENTIRE WORLD there are 3000 deaths from Diptheria. That includes every nation without basic sanitation and running water. Alcoholics are particularly susceptible, with something like 26% of Russian alcoholics contracting the disease.

 

As for Tetanus, yes, it is very serious, but usually only affects those with have compromised circulation because it cannot survive in an aerobic environment. Children have excellent circulation and therefore remain basically unaffected by it.

 

Something like 15% of the cases are in injectable drug users, 75% are those age 60 or older, and the balance are adults with diabetes.

 

If the injury warrants it, Tetanus Immunoglobulin is available to treat the patient. If you are injured and the doctor suggests a regular tetanus vaccine, what that means is that he/she doesn't think you are at risk for tetanus (because administering the vaccine in those cases provides no benefit). Doctors commonly encourage tetanus vaccination as a matter of course.

 

Stand alone Tetanus (not bundled in the DTaP) is available for those over age 5, I believe... I haven't researched it in awhile, maybe someone else can confirm.

Edited August 31, 2009 by sweetbasil

[Mom2GirlsTX]

My dd got pertussis when she was 5. She was diagnosed at the Children's Hospital by them taking a swab down her nose, ... it was not comfortable.

 

She was not fully vaccinated because on her first DTaP at 2 months she reacted to the vaccination so they were concerned it was the pertussis portion. She was vaccinated, but not with the pertussis portion. If she had not had an allergic reaction, I would have had her vaccinated for it. (I went on advice of pediatrician)

 

She started Kindergarten and caught it .... it was so hard on her. She literally looked like a rabid dog when she would cough so hard that foam literally was around her mouth. We spent a great deal of time at the emergency room until she was properly diagnosed and confirmed what it was. It took her almost 4 months to finally clear up, but she did have asthma so maybe she was weaker than some children.

 

After watching what she went through, I would not wish pertussis on anyone.

 

I hope you get well soon!

Edited August 31, 2009 by Mom2GirlsTX

[ChristusG]

I have two DD's and we recently stopped vaccinating.

 

DD #1 had her shots up till 2 years old....so she's had all but one DTaP vax. DD#2 had all her shots up till a year old. So she's had all but two DTap vax's. Do you think they would be covered enough? Pertussis freaks me out. I wish you could get that vax without the other ones.

[Lovedtodeath]

The CDC states that only 10% of vaccine reactions are reported.

Yes. We only reported Jake's reaction to shots that contain yeast, one time. Then we got a shot without yeast and he had the same reaction. I realized that he was reacting to every shot every time. It was getting worse each time.

 

I wish you could get that vax without the other ones.

:iagree:

[KidsHappen]

You know last year the entire family had a cough for about three months. My hubby had it so bad he passed out. He had previously had surgery for a hernia and they were concerned that he would have a problem with that so they put him on a narcotic cough syrup. He had several refills and I know they don't hand that out easily. I never even considered whooping cough but now that I think of it that is probably what it was. Three of us were diagnosed with brochitis include on child who had previous never been ill other than strep, chicken pox and the measles.

[WiseOwlKnits]

Thank you so much for posting this!! I've been sick for over a month with a cough. Been through 2 full courses of antibiotics, which have done nothing...but I have all the symptoms when I googled "adult pertussis." I'm calling my doctor back in the morning.

[Perry]

 

Additionally, vaccination does not prevent transmission of Diptheria or Pertussis (and Tetanus isn't contagious obviously), so the unvaxed population is not responsible for spreading it.

 

I don't understand what you mean by this. Vaccination decreases the number of cases, and the fewer the cases, the lower the rate of transmission.

 

I disagree that the unvaccinated population isn't responsible for spreading those diseases. During outbreaks, the attack rates in the unvaccinated population are much higher than in the vaccinated population. While the actual numbers of cases will be higher in the vaccinated population (because there are more of them), the rates aren't. If the vaccination rates were higher, the threshold needed to start an epidemic wouldn't be reached. There is an excellent explanation here, written by a colleague during a mumps epidemic in Iowa several years ago.

Excerpt:

As has been mentioned, the given efficacy rate for the mumps vaccine is 95%. This is actually likely a bit high; previous outbreaks have suggested it's more like 85-90% effective, so that as many as 15% of the vaccinated population won't actually be immune. The key to telling whether the vaccine is helpful, then, is to look at the attack rate--the percent of the population that develops disease--in the vaccinated versus unvaccinated population. So, some more math to follow.

For the sake of simplicity, say you have a population of 100,000 people. Vaccination coverage in the population is 95%, meaning that 5,000 will be unvaccinated and lacking in immunity. Additionally, let's say the vaccine is only 90% effective. So, of your vaccinated population of 95,000 people, you'll have 9,500 people who remain susceptible--"vaccinated but not effectively so," let's call them.

Now let's assume, again for the sake of simplicity, that susceptible people are equally likely to become infected with mumps, whether they're in the "vaccinated but not effectively so" or "unvaccinated" group. (Real life is actually messier, leading to a skew in one group or the other, but we'll ignore that for now). Therefore, if you have an outbreak of 500 cases--roughly the size of Iowa's right now--in an ideal world they'd be divided randomly between the two groups. The "vaccinated but not effectively so" group is roughly twice as large as the "never vaccinated" group, so figure they get 333 of the 500 cases, and the remaining 167 cases are in the unvaccinated population.

Still following? Now it's time to calculate the attack rate. In the vaccinated population, we ended up with 333 cases of disease in a total population of 95,000. So, the attack rate = 333/95,000 = .35%

In the unvaccinated population, we ended up with 167 cases of disease in a total population of 5000. So, the attack rate = 167/5,000 = 3.34%: TEN TIMES the rate of the vaccinated population.

This is the key to the whole thing. Yes, there's disease in the vaccinated population. Of the cases in this little hypothetical, by the numbers alone, 66% were vaccinated--lower, but similar to our numbers here in Iowa. Yet as you can see, this doesn't mean that "the vaccine isn't working:" in our scenario, it means it's working at a 90% effectiveness rate, which is pretty good. The unvaccinated population acquired disease at 10 times the rate of the vaccinated population overall, so while being vaccinated was no guarantee of protection, it's a **** good gamble.

 

Conversely, a quick search of VAERS for 2007 shows 83 deaths associated with the DTaP, 57 of those in children under 6 months of age. The CDC states that only 10% of vaccine reactions are reported.

 

Where did you find this information? I'm looking at the VAERS site and I can't locate it.

 

Assuming it's there somewhere:

 

 

VAERS When evaluating data from VAERS, it is important to note that for any reported event, no cause and effect relationship has been established. VAERS is interested in all potential associations between vaccines and adverse events. Therefore, VAERS collects data on any adverse event following vaccination, be it coincidental or truly caused by a vaccine. The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.

Have you looked at the actual reports? They say things like,"Two months after the vaccination, the child developed a fever." Umm, and this has something to do with the vaccine? Kids get fevers all the time. I'm not saying vaccines have no side effects. But if you look at the actual reports, many of them are obviously not related at all.

 

 

The WHO states that yearly in THE ENTIRE WORLD there are 3000 deaths from Diptheria. That includes every nation without basic sanitation and running water. Alcoholics are particularly susceptible, with something like 26% of Russian alcoholics contracting the disease.

This is just not possible. Do you mean that the mortality rate for alcoholics with diphtheria is 26%? I'd buy that, although I haven't seen those numbers anywhere.

As for Tetanus, yes, it is very serious, but usually only affects those with have compromised circulation because it cannot survive in an aerobic environment. Children have excellent circulation and therefore remain basically unaffected by it.

While those with compromised circulation are at higher risk, tetanus is by no means limited to those with compromised circulation. As far as children go, neonatal tetanus is a common problem in developing countries. In some areas, half of all neonatal deaths are due to neonatal tetanus. It used to be much more common in kids, but the age distribution has changed dramatically since about 95% of all children (in the US) are vaccinated for tetanus by about age 5.

WHO

A challenge

At the end of the 1980s, neonatal tetanus was considered a major public health problem. WHO estimated that in 1988, 787,000 newborn children died of neonatal tetanus, hence a rate of 6.5 cases per 1000 live births

In 1989, the 42nd World Health Assembly called for elimination of neonatal tetanus by 1995

In 1990, the World Summit for Children listed neonatal tetanus elimination as one of its goals, which were endorsed by the 44th World Health Assembly in 1991

Due to slow implementation of the recommended strategies, the target date for elimination was postponed to 2000 and later, while adding maternal tetanus elimination as a goal, to 2005.

While progress has been made, by the end of 2008, there still remains 46 countries to eliminate MNT. Activities continue in these countries, to achieve the goal in the near future.

WHO estimates that in 2004 the latest year for which estimates are available, 128,000 newborns died of Neonatal Tetanus. That same year, 52 countries had yet to eliminate MNT.

 

Something like 15% of the cases are in injectable drug users, 75% are those age 60 or older, and the balance are adults with diabetes.

About 95% of patients in the US with tetanus are unvaccinated or undervaccinated (not up to date).

Edited August 31, 2009 by Perry

[Karen in CO]

I have a couple of rambling things to say about pertussis, DTaP, diphtheria, MMR, VAERS and people throwing out uncited sources...

 

My dd's reaction to DTaP was reported to VAERS. Her reaction is listed as a Moderate Reaction happening in about 1 in 16,000 children. She had a fever of 105 which started 12 hours after her first and second dose of DTaP. Our doctor reported it, and I started looking at those 1 in X number much differently. I trust my family doc very much, and he and I have worked through the risk and benefit of every shot we have given her since. We never did anything more to prove whether it was related, but all who were involved were pretty sure it was not coincidental and warranted a cessation of DTaP shots.

 

 

Colorado has a very high incidence of pertussis which worries me with my asthma since I seem to catch every upper respiratory thing around. The department of health here puts out these annual studies of vaccine preventable diseases. It helps me to see real numbers that are close to me when I make these decisions.

 

I have a friend in India who contracted diphtheria last year, but it doesn't change my stance on DTaP for my child with a reaction because we aren't traveling to India. However, the number of cases of measles last year in Tokyo prompted me to finally start her MMR shots because that number was relevant to us.

 

Big, scary statistics don't really help me as much as the advice of someone knowledgeable that I trust and relevant information.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

However, the number of cases of measles last year in Tokyo prompted me to finally start her MMR shots because that number was relevant to us.

I enjoyed your ramblings. Another thing that I look at is how serious a disease is in a young child. It seemed like measles is usually not a great risk. My pediatrician actually told me that with most diseases that we have immunizations for pneumonia was the greatest risk. Considering my lil guy gets pneumonia from immunizations, he advised against them.

[Karen in CO]

My ds started college in Tokyo last year and comes home every few months so his risk of getting measles increased. IN 2008, Japan had over 11,00 cases of measles with over 1000 of those in Tokyo. In 2007, several Tokyo universities were closed due to outbreaks among college students and measles were (was) exported to other countries from Japan. My fear was my immunized child getting exposed to measels and bringing it home to my immunized child. I imagined my little house as the center of a national outbreak. - Okay, so I can be dramatic, but a little fear can go a long way. MMR was on my wait until we travel to exotic lands list until then.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Karen in CO

[Pamela H in Texas]

I had pertussis many years ago. I wonder, is it one of those that I could have gotten from a vaccinated child? Anyway, my kids were little and thankfully didn't get it. I was told that the booster lasts less than 10 years (I think I was 23 when I got it) and that adults should get boosters every 10 years but that no one does. I'm also not immune to rubella despite additional vaccinations.

Edited August 31, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[Halftime Hope]

Thing is that the antibiotics won't help you AT ALL and once you are coughing, you are no longer contagious as the coughing is a result of the bacterial damage in the lungs. This is why a positive diagnosis is hard- the culture has to be done when the person is feeling sick like a cold rather than when coughing.

 

 

Could you please cite where you obtained this information?

 

 

Perhaps it is just a placebo effect, but within 36 hours of my starting biaxin, there was a marked difference in the amount of coughing I've been doing. Previously, my chest (right under the sternum) would feel very tight and I'd start coughing. It's been so much better--and it had been getting a bit worse each week--that I haven't filled the Rx for the $$ inhaler, choosing to see if I get better enough in the week of antibio's that I can simply continue with the albuterol inhaler and not do the one with steroids+. If not, I'll get the second Rx.

 

I was very skeptical of what the MD had to say, about it all, and came home and checked it out. He was right on with recommended protocol. My one continuing beef was that he recommended the vax, so it would improve my immune response to pertussis and I wouldn't get it again, and for the sake of the community. I challenged that gently, by saying that I had understood that best immunity to illness was when you had actually contracted illness, was that not true in this case as well? And my getting the vax, at this point, wouldn't do anything for the community. The only thing I can do for the community is to stay home and keep all my germs confined. (He agreed.) That's what I'm doing.

 

I did find a reference to German study which indicated that, and this is just for pertussis, there is a higher rate of repeat pertussis among those who got the disease than among those vaccinated for it. Perhaps it is not so much the efficacy of the vax, but the damage done by the illness...who knows. Maybe it would warrant getting the vax to prevent my getting it again. ??

 

That is all.

[Halftime Hope]

You guys are freaking me out. Dd8 has not been vaccinated for pertussis. Ds9 has severe neuro problems that started between 4-6 mos. The neuro that we were seeing didn't think the vaccinations caused ds's problems but said they could have been a catalyst. Pertussis was one that was warned to possibly cause neuro problems so we didn't give her it. We were so terrified of that happening to dd. Dd has had her vacs spread out over longer periods of time but no pertussis. She can't get a booster until age 10-I think. The past years I have panicked whenever she started coughing. I guess I have to worry even more this year.

 

Don't allow yourself to feel panicky. Do what you always do to keep their immune systems functioning well. Be vigilant about who they're around and whether they are coughing. Truly, in my case, and in what he said he was seeing, it isn't a horror, just a real nuisance.

 

Reassess with your medical providers when and if the kids should have the vaxes. (Cost v. benefit.) Make an informed decision and you'll be fine. If pertussis is on your radar, and the docs', you can make better decisions if someone gets sick.

[Mad Jenny Flint]

I am so glad for your posts on this board. Thank you.

[Blueridge]

Since we all want to be informed on pros and cons, and this thread mentioned whooping cough, etc., I thought I would share this link to a Natural News article on vaccines I received yesterday. The author is not pro-vax, just so you'll be aware if you don't want to read it. :)

http://www.naturalnews.com/026940_vaccines_vaccination_health.html

[Jen500]

Since we all want to be informed on pros and cons, and this thread mentioned whooping cough, etc., I thought I would share this link to a Natural News article on vaccines I received yesterday. The author is not pro-vax, just so you'll be aware if you don't want to read it. :)

http://www.naturalnews.com/026940_vaccines_vaccination_health.html

 

I couldn't get past the first sentence from your link-

 

Vaccines are the quackery of modern medicine.

[Perry]

Since we all want to be informed on pros and cons, and this thread mentioned whooping cough, etc., I thought I would share this link to a Natural News article on vaccines I received yesterday. The author is not pro-vax, just so you'll be aware if you don't want to read it. :)

http://www.naturalnews.com/026940_vaccines_vaccination_health.html

I'm not going to spend my morning explaining why each of these points are deliberately misleading. But each of these:

 

• In the UK between 1970 and 1990, over 200,000 cases of whooping cough occurred in fully vaccinated children. (Community Disease Surveillance Centre, UK)

 

• In the 1970's a tuberculosis vaccine trial in India involving 260,000 people revealed that more cases of TB occurred in the vaccinated than the unvaccinated. (The Lancet 12/1/80 p73)

 

 

• In 1979, Sweden abandoned the whooping cough vaccine due to its ineffectiveness. Out of 5,140 cases in 1978, it was found that 84% had been vaccinated three times! (BMJ 283:696-697, 1981)

are explained by the post above about attack rates, and why the numbers are higher in those vaccinated.

 

Also, Sweden reintroduced the pertussis vaccine in 1996 and cases have dropped dramatically.

[TravelingChris]

Unlike some of you, I believe that vaccines are one of the best discoveries in medical history. We used to have smallpox which had a high fatality rate. We don't anymore. We used to have people die from rabies, now that is rare. We used to have lots of deaf people from measles, again it is very rare now. I could go on and on. Between antibiotics and vaccinations, childhood diseases have almost disappeared. It is wonderful that since the vaccine programs have been so effective, non-vaccinators don't have too much to worry about. I do not advocate anyone disregarding actual vaccine reactions that are serious and vaccinating regardless. However, slight fevers are a normal reaction to many vaccines. I don't see anyway you can prove that a fever two months after a vaccine has anything to do with a vaccine.

 

Antibiotics overuse is a problem, and I certainly don't want anyone to get their child vaccinated if they have had vaccine problems in the past without medical advice, not web advice.

[Lovedtodeath]

I just wish they could figure out a better way to vaccine. I think the ingredients are off, the mode of delivery is off and the scheduling is off. I also wish people weren't so militant about vaccines that they want me to take my child in. He struggles to breath from every shot and the nurses told me every vaccine has a worse reaction than the one before! Good grief!

 

I don't understand one thing still. Can vaccinated people still carry and pass around the disease without actually coming down with it?

[TravelingChris]

Can vaccinated people still carry and pass around the disease without actually coming down with it?

 

 

No, not usually except with live vaccines right after innoculation and then only for immuno-suppressed people. So if you get a MMR in 2009 and are actually vaccinated (see Perry's informative post about how vaccines work above), if their is an outbreak of measles, let's say, you won't get it nor will you pass it on to anyone. Someone who isn't vaccinated can get a mild form of some disease, maybe just sniffles, not realize they have a serious disease, and go spreading that around.

[Lovedtodeath]

Yeah, the MMR didn't take in my case either.

[camibami]

I might take my chances with whooping cough (a family we knew of 11 all got it, adults to babies, and it stunk, but not too terribly) or measles, or maybe even mumps if I had girls, but not tetanus. Tetanus (is that spelled right?) is no joke, and kids play in dirt and step on things and who only knows what else.

 

You really, really can get tetanus. You may not even realize you did- sure, we all know the rusty nail protocol, but what about toddlers in the dirt? They love dirt! Then its too late, and that is one nasty disease.

 

I'm grouchy kids here have to be vax'd for Hep A to go to school (not required anywhere else we've lived, to my knowledge) and DD is taking some classes at the middle school this year. She LOVES taking band and Korean, we have always vax'd for everything save Chicken Pox, but I am grumpy at yet another vax requirement. They have a lot of it here, though, and we love seafood (often transmitted in water), and we have zero vaccine reaction issues, so...off to get shots tomorrow. From my research, it looks like kids who get Hep A don't even get sick, and get lifelong immunity. But adults get very sick, especially if they have a compromised liver, and so I guess vax'ing the little germ factories keeps the adults protected. I'm hoping the kids already had it, unbeknownst to me, and have immunity, that would be wonderful!

 

DH and I have been vax'd for everything known to man at one point or another, so we ought to be good for Hep A (and anthrax, and smallpox, and...!)Germs fizzle into dust when approaching us. :lol: 'Course, we did have that whole "growing a second head" issue, but I got that removed and since then I've been A-ok!

[Blueridge]

... so I guess vax'ing the little germ factories keeps the adults protected. !

 

:lol::lol:

 

My dh says that, while he was in the Navy, he was vaccinated for everything imaginable...even the diseases that haven't been discovered yet! :D

[Perry]

I have a couple of rambling things to say about pertussis, DTaP, diphtheria, MMR, VAERS and people throwing out uncited sources...

 

My dd's reaction to DTaP was reported to VAERS. Her reaction is listed as a Moderate Reaction happening in about 1 in 16,000 children. She had a fever of 105 which started 12 hours after her first and second dose of DTaP. Our doctor reported it, and I started looking at those 1 in X number much differently. I trust my family doc very much, and he and I have worked through the risk and benefit of every shot we have given her since. We never did anything more to prove whether it was related, but all who were involved were pretty sure it was not coincidental and warranted a cessation of DTaP shots.

 

Vaccines have risks. No question. If my kid had an adverse effect, I would halt further vaccines for sure. I don't want to minimize the fact that they aren't risk free. I do believe that overall the benefits far outweigh the risks. Absolutely parents should make informed choices for their kids based on good information.

 

Unfortunately, it's really hard to get good information. VAERS has its uses, but because of the way data are collected and presented, the information can be very misleading. Here's a good article. There is a section on usefulness, but I imagine we all agree on that, so I'm not copying that part.

 

Excerpt:

LIMITATIONS

Seriously mistaken conclusions can be made by interpreting VAERS data without taking the important limitations of VAERS into account.

Accuracy of Reports. VAERS is a passive surveillance system, and the large number of reports to VAERS precludes checking the specifics of the vast majority of reports, especially the less serious ones. Few reports to VAERS include full medical record documentation, and some doubtless include errors. In addition, the VAERS forms often have missing data; even simple data such as age, sex, vaccination date and adverse event onset date are missing for about 11%, 8%, 10% and 14%, respectively, of domestic VAERS reports.

Underreporting. Underreporting is an inherent problem of passive surveillance systems, including VAERS. The degree of underreporting varies according to the adverse event. For example, one study estimated that 68% of cases of vaccine-associated polio are reported to VAERS, but only 4% of MMR-associated thrombocytopenia are reported9. This variability in undereporting can make it hazardous to assume that the relative frequencies of adverse events in VAERS reflects their relative rates of occurrence. In addition, for new products on the market, increased reporting of adverse events may occur; this has been termed the "Weber effect"10.

Overreporting. Adverse events may be included in the VAERS database that are not accurate descriptions of the event that occurred, and erroneous diagnoses may be reported. For example, a case of simple fainting after vaccination may be incorrectly reported as anaphylaxis, a potentially life-threatening condition.

Overreporting may also result from reports that describe adverse events for which a definitive diagnosis has not yet been reached. For example, if the reporter writes on the reporting form a diagnosis of "rule out meningitis", that VAERS report will be computer coded as meningitis. Unless specific follow-up is received indicating that meningitis was ruled out, the meningitis coding term will remain associated with the computerized VAERS report.

Adverse Event Incidence And Trends. As a result of the overreporting and underreporting issues described above, drawing conclusions from VAERS data about how many adverse events occurred in the United States must be done extremely carefully. Similarly, because the factors affecting overreporting and underreporting may vary over time, drawing conclusion from observations of changes, or lack of changes, in the frequency of adverse events in VAERS over time (trends) may be hazardous. In addition, numbers of adverse events reported to VAERS will at least partially reflect the number of doses of vaccine administered. For example, VAERS reports reflect the current trend of a decline in usage of whole-cell pertussis-containing vaccines and a simultaneous increase in the use of acellular pertussis vaccines; however, it would be incorrect to draw conclusions about the relative safety of these vaccines from such trend data. Finally, the number of doses of vaccine administered according to age is not part of the VAERS database, and therefore actual rates of adverse events are not strictly calculable.

Causal vs. Temporal Association. To encourage complete reporting to VAERS reporters are not expected, or asked to, make a determination about whether the adverse event they report is caused by vaccination. Although certain adverse events are clearly due to vaccination, such as injection site reactions, a large proportion of adverse events cannot be clearly causally linked to vaccination; the most that can be concluded is that the adverse event followed vaccination. This lack of clear causality is particularly common among serious adverse events and deaths, and is largely due to the fact that there are no laboratory tests or clinical signs that can determine whether the majority of vaccine adverse events were caused by vaccination. These difficulties can lead investigators, when there is sufficient interest, to mount epidemiologic studies to determine whether vaccination is associated with specific adverse events.

For example, hundreds of reports of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS) have been made to VAERS since 1990. Because SIDS occurs in an age range during which vaccination also occurs, the occurrence of SIDS in temporal association with vaccination may simply reflect chance. Indeed, the possibility of a link between SIDS and DTP vaccination was assessed by a committee of the Institute of Medicine11. The committee evaluated epidemiologic studies of this issue and came to the conclusion that the evidence "does not indicate a causal relation" between SIDS and DTP vaccine.

 

One other comment about temporal associations...

 

Paul Offit, in his book Autism's False Prophets: Bad Science, Risky Medicine, and the Search for a Cure tells the following story:

 

From a review of the book at Salon

…it’s hard to make a statistical argument, or an epidemiological argument, to a parent who’s seen something that’s very emotional. There’s a story that I tell, because I think it’s a powerful one. My wife is a privately practicing pediatrician in the suburbs. And she was in the office one day and there was a four-month-old sitting on her mother’s lap. And my wife was drawing a vaccine into a syringe that she was about to give this child. Well, while she was drawing the vaccine into a syringe the child had a seizure, and actually went on to have a permanent seizure disorder—epilepsy. And there had been a family history of epilepsy, so she was certainly at risk for that. If my wife had given that vaccine five minutes earlier, I think there’s no amount of statistical data in the world that would have convinced that mother that anything other than the vaccine caused the seizure, because I think those sort of emotional events are very hard to argue against.

 

[Lovedtodeath]

 

If my kid had an adverse effect, I would halt further vaccines for sure.

[Kathleen in VA]

I've read all the responses and just wanted to add that pertussis can be deadly to infants and the elderly. We had an outbreak in our church in 1996 (before it became more widely spread and recognized in the medical community) - had to cancel VBS that summer since so many people were sick. I took my daughter (3.5yo at the time) to the ER because she was coughing so badly and throwing up along with each cough. She could barely catch her breath. They told us it was allergies!! Hopefully, the medical community has gotten better at recognizing the symptoms by now. We had to demand a pertussis test at the pediatrician's office which, not surprisingly, came back positive. I diagnosed her myself using my Dr. Spock book for crying out loud. Anyway, be sure to demand a test if you suspect pertussis and stay away from infants. My pastor's one-month old grandson had to be hospitalized and almost didn't make it.

[Lovedtodeath]

I am going to suggest my mom get a pertussis vaccine. She cannot have a tetnus vaccine though. Does anyone know how she could get it?