My dd was told not to include all the points in her opening paragraph

[StephinAL]

by her new Sociology teacher. She went on to tell her that may have been how she learned in highschool, but that isn't how you do it in college. My dd said, "Actually, I learned that last year in Comp 101 and 102 at X-State". My dd basically did her senior year in highschool at a local community college. The Sociology teacher said "Well, I'am not saying anything about those professors, but that isn't the way to do it."

 

How else do you do it???? That is how I wrote in highschool and college. That is how we teach writing in our classes at our co-op. Can anyone tell me another way? Do you not introduce your topic and points, follow up discussing those points, then conclude? Maybe I really don't know anything about writing.

[AndyJoy]

I was never taught to include/preview all my points in the opening paragraph. I was taught to introduce the topic and include a thesis statement, and then support it with points in the following paragraphs. Supporting points were not mentioned specifically until their individual paragraphs.

[Renee in NC]

I was never taught to include/preview all my points in the opening paragraph. I was taught to introduce the topic and include a thesis statement, and then support it with points in the following paragraphs. Supporting points were not mentioned specifically until their individual paragraphs.

 

Same here.

[Melinda in VT]

I used the intro paragraph to lead into the thesis/topic sentence, which came at the end of the first paragraph. I wouldn't include supporting points in the intro.

[melissel]

I think it really depends on the piece and the points. Too many points can make an opening paragraph unwieldy, IMO. There are some fans of very streamlined sentences and paragraphs. I think it's more a style issue than anything. I don't think it would be bad for her to learn a different style, so long as she doesn't forget the other one.

[Perry]

I was never taught to include/preview all my points in the opening paragraph. I was taught to introduce the topic and include a thesis statement, and then support it with points in the following paragraphs. Supporting points were not mentioned specifically until their individual paragraphs.

:iagree:

[Loupelou]

I was never taught to include/preview all my points in the opening paragraph. I was taught to introduce the topic and include a thesis statement, and then support it with points in the following paragraphs. Supporting points were not mentioned specifically until their individual paragraphs.

 

:iagree: This is how we do it. We've used Writer's Inc. for examples.

[Miss Marple]

This is also what my ds has been told in college. His professor stated that the 5 paragraph essay learned in high school is NOT the way college papers are written (although freshman composition still teaches it). In fact, he would give an F to any paper like that. However, he did go on to teach the students the "college" way. I think the 5 paragraph essay has value as a teaching aid, but upper level writing should go beyond that.

 

The difficulty I have is that, knowing this, I would like to start working my younger boys towards the "college" way, but their other teachers (co-op) count off points if their 3 main points aren't listed in the introduction and re-stated in the conclusion. So...I'm still doing it the 5 paragraph way for now.

[chaik76]

I was never taught to include/preview all my points in the opening paragraph. I was taught to introduce the topic and include a thesis statement, and then support it with points in the following paragraphs. Supporting points were not mentioned specifically until their individual paragraphs.

Same here.

[Carol in Cal.]

For a short paper (3 or 5 paragraphs), the format you're mentioning would work well.

 

But for a longer paper, the first paragraph might not even include the thesis. It might just be an opening hook--background information engaging the reader to want to find out about the issue. Then the thesis would follow in the second paragraph, and the supporting reasons would be covered in following ones.

[Audrey]

I was never taught to include/preview all my points in the opening paragraph. I was taught to introduce the topic and include a thesis statement, and then support it with points in the following paragraphs. Supporting points were not mentioned specifically until their individual paragraphs.

 

 

Bingo!

[LizzyBee]

I was never taught to include/preview all my points in the opening paragraph. I was taught to introduce the topic and include a thesis statement, and then support it with points in the following paragraphs. Supporting points were not mentioned specifically until their individual paragraphs.

 

It's been a long time, but I think this is the way I was taught, too.

[melissel]

I honestly can't believe how many people were taught not to do this. I was taught the way the OP's daughter was in high school (can't remember about college, but I got good grades and was never called on the carpet for it, so it must have been fine). The reports I edit professionally also have opening paragraphs with summarized key points, and upon a quick review of some sample college research papers online, I'm seeing them both ways. I'm really surprised. Are people really being taught that a research paper should never begin with briefly summarized points? Maybe I'm missing something here...

[Renee in NC]

I honestly can't believe how many people were taught not to do this. I was taught the way the OP's daughter was in high school (can't remember about college, but I got good grades and was never called on the carpet for it, so it must have been fine). The reports I edit professionally also have opening paragraphs with summarized key points, and upon a quick review of some sample college research papers online, I'm seeing them both ways. I'm really surprised. Are people really being taught that a research paper should never begin with briefly summarized points? Maybe I'm missing something here...

 

Maybe it is a short essay versus paper thing? I never needed to write a 5 paragraph essay in college, but did write 8-10 page papers regularly. I can see hitting the key points in the intro of a short essay, but in a paper you will have multiple 5 paragraph setups in the paper.

[phathui5]

I don't include all my points in the opening paragraph. The opening paragraph is just an introduction.

[ereks mom]

by her new Sociology teacher. She went on to tell her that may have been how she learned in highschool, but that isn't how you do it in college. My dd said, "Actually, I learned that last year in Comp 101 and 102 at X-State". My dd basically did her senior year in highschool at a local community college. The Sociology teacher said "Well, I'am not saying anything about those professors, but that isn't the way to do it."

 

How else do you do it???? That is how I wrote in highschool and college. That is how we teach writing in our classes at our co-op. Can anyone tell me another way? Do you not introduce your topic and points, follow up discussing those points, then conclude? Maybe I really don't know anything about writing.

 

...discuss each point in its own paragraph, then conclude by restating the thesis using different wording. This would be for a 5-paragraph essay. I taught my dc the same way.

[Miss Marple]

Maybe it is a short essay versus paper thing?

 

I think you're right. Ds's college papers were anywhere from 8 to 12 pages.

[Laurie4b]

by her new Sociology teacher. She went on to tell her that may have been how she learned in highschool, but that isn't how you do it in college. My dd said, "Actually, I learned that last year in Comp 101 and 102 at X-State". My dd basically did her senior year in highschool at a local community college. The Sociology teacher said "Well, I'am not saying anything about those professors, but that isn't the way to do it."

 

How else do you do it???? That is how I wrote in highschool and college. That is how we teach writing in our classes at our co-op. Can anyone tell me another way? Do you not introduce your topic and points, follow up discussing those points, then conclude? Maybe I really don't know anything about writing.

 

Teachers have different expectations and there isn't one standard way to write something. Don't worry about it. DD should do as the sociology professor prefers in that class. Part of good writing is knowing your audience. That prof. is her audience for that class. And if that particular college has a formula they expect followed for all papers, DD should do it. But it doesn't mean everyone else should. It is not uncommon for a paper to start with an intro paragraph with the thesis, and a preview of the main points to be made.

[melissel]

Maybe it is a short essay versus paper thing? I never needed to write a 5 paragraph essay in college, but did write 8-10 page papers regularly. I can see hitting the key points in the intro of a short essay, but in a paper you will have multiple 5 paragraph setups in the paper.

 

Huh, maybe. Maybe I'm just not recalling college writing after 12 years of editing professional research written NOTHING like the classic college paper (and *hmmpbmmcough* years after being done with college :lol:).

 

Teachers have different expectations and there isn't one standard way to write something. Don't worry about it. DD should do as the sociology professor prefers in that class. Part of good writing is knowing your audience. That prof. is her audience for that class. And if that particular college has a formula they expect followed for all papers, DD should do it. But it doesn't mean everyone else should. It is not uncommon for a paper to start with an intro paragraph with the thesis, and a preview of the main points to be made.

 

Ultimately, I have to agree with this, though. And familiarity with additional writing styles will only help her in the long run.

[StephinAL]

I was taught to introduce the topic and include a thesis statement

Yes, but in that topic will be some major points right?

 

This was a short essay. I think my daughter was talking about her thesis statement and major points being included. She then expanded further on those points followed by a concluding paragraph that reflects the thesis, summarizing those points.

[LaxMom]

I was never taught to include/preview all my points in the opening paragraph. I was taught to introduce the topic and include a thesis statement, and then support it with points in the following paragraphs. Supporting points were not mentioned specifically until their individual paragraphs.

Me, too.

[lionfamily1999]

One thing I learned in college was how to write my papers for their intended audience. IOW, my English papers were one thing, my history papers completely different and the ones I had to write for my intro to college class were (imo) daffy.

 

She's learning to write to the teacher, not necessarily a bad thing. All college writing is persuasive, you're persuading your prof to give you a good grade. That is something that an advanced or natural writer can be taught (or self-taught) early.

[Harriet Vane]

I was never taught to include/preview all my points in the opening paragraph. I was taught to introduce the topic and include a thesis statement, and then support it with points in the following paragraphs. Supporting points were not mentioned specifically until their individual paragraphs.

 

:iagree:

 

While it is fine to share your points in the opening paragraph, I do find that it often results in a dryer, more stilted tone. I think it's much stronger to do as AndyJoy says above.

 

FWIW I have a degree in writing.

[angela in ohio]

Dh made graduate student of the year (highest GPA) due to his use of a lengthened form of the five paragraph essay (basically the IEW super essay.) I read the drivel the other student in his classes wrote, and anyone able to structure a paper in any way was heads and shoulders above the rest.

 

I agree with PP, each professor will want something different. I had one professor when I went back to college who would accuse me of plagiarism if my paper was too well done (mom back in college, I must be a dunce, huh?) and mark me down as not citing the ideas I presented (my original ideas of how to organize the information.) I had some professors who liked quotations, some who didn't, some who preferred brevity, some who graded based on the number of pages filled, etc. I always learned to look at the syllabus to get an idea of what the professor was like. Someone (SWB? Mr. Pudewa?) I heard recommended looking up the professor's published work and figuring out what they prefer.

[Brenda in FL]

One thing I learned in college was how to write my papers for their intended audience. IOW, my English papers were one thing, my history papers completely different and the ones I had to write for my intro to college class were (imo) daffy.

 

She's learning to write to the teacher, not necessarily a bad thing. All college writing is persuasive, you're persuading your prof to give you a good grade. That is something that an advanced or natural writer can be taught (or self-taught) early.

 

This is so true! Every teacher had different expectations. I'd usually get a crummy grade from a new teacher for a paper that the previous teacher would have given me an A. After that first crummy grade - I knew what the teacher expected and could conform!

 

As for the OP, I learned to write that way for a basic 5 paragraph paper. The points would be briefly stated in the introductory paragraph and then expanded on in the next three paragraphs. But, I agree that longer papers may not follow this format.

 

But by all means, she should write her paper to the specifications of her teacher if she wants the A!!

[Pamela H in Texas]

I was taught to introduce the topic and include a thesis statement, and then support it with points in the following paragraphs. Supporting points were not mentioned specifically until their individual paragraphs.

 

I don't think I understand. And I certainly think I might have told my daughter wrong just this week if this is the case. I asked her what her "big points" were that each of her points could be divided between. These would be mentioned in the opening paragraph (or introduction as a longer paper may actually have more than one paragraph in the intro).

 

However, I just looked at my paper regarding alternatives to blood transfusions. I did not simply summarize there. When looking at MY paper, I really like how I alluded to what the paper would run through without outlining it. My thesis sentence was: A combination of blood management strategies are available for doctors to provide a higher standard of care for patients by reducing, even eliminating, the need for blood transfusions. So it isn't spelled out ABC. My subtopics were: Why We Need Alternatives, Options Proven to Work, Difficulties with Alternatives, and Benefits of Alternatives.

 

But is that still not what y'all mean? I definitely alluded to my points in the thesis though I didn't spell them out as "let me tell you about A, B, C."

 

So I called my daughter in here and she agreed that mine looked a lot more mature. But we're both unsure how to get hers to do the same. ALSO, the mentor she spoke to told her to summarize her main points in her thesis sentence. But maybe she could do it in a more mature way, maybe alluding to them rather than ending the thesis sentence with "examining not only the fundamental aspects but also X and Y" (I don't want to put the whole thing as I don't want it to come up on a google search when being graded).

 

Any opinions?

 

(btw, I outsource(d) writing as I stink at it myself despite almost straight A's in high school and college).

Edited August 28, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[LUV2EDU]

I was never taught to include/preview all my points in the opening paragraph. I was taught to introduce the topic and include a thesis statement, and then support it with points in the following paragraphs. Supporting points were not mentioned specifically until their individual paragraphs.

 

:iagree::iagree:

[WiseOwlKnits]

I was never taught to include/preview all my points in the opening paragraph. I was taught to introduce the topic and include a thesis statement, and then support it with points in the following paragraphs. Supporting points were not mentioned specifically until their individual paragraphs.

 

:iagree:

This is exactly how I was taught to write. It is, in my opinion, a much stronger way to write than the standard 5-paragraph essay (which brings back to my mind nightmares of drilling for the TAAS test as a student in public schools).

[zaichiki]

I was taught to introduce the topic and include a thesis statement, and then support it with points in the following paragraphs. Supporting points were not mentioned specifically until their individual paragraphs.

 

Yep: that was how I learned it in high school.

[chaik76]

:iagree:

This is exactly how I was taught to write. It is, in my opinion, a much stronger way to write than the standard 5-paragraph essay (which brings back to my mind nightmares of drilling for the TAAS test as a student in public schools).

I don't think I've ever had to write a five-paragraph essay for anything...even our papers in high school were five pages or more. In college, I know I never had to write anything shorter than five pages (I was an English and History major).

[iluvmy4blessings]

by her new Sociology teacher. She went on to tell her that may have been how she learned in highschool, but that isn't how you do it in college. My dd said, "Actually, I learned that last year in Comp 101 and 102 at X-State". My dd basically did her senior year in highschool at a local community college. The Sociology teacher said "Well, I'am not saying anything about those professors, but that isn't the way to do it."

 

How else do you do it???? That is how I wrote in highschool and college. That is how we teach writing in our classes at our co-op. Can anyone tell me another way? Do you not introduce your topic and points, follow up discussing those points, then conclude? Maybe I really don't know anything about writing.

 

I majored in English in college. The most important thing to know is that writers have different styles. Each professor prefers their OWN writing style. As an English major, I had to adjust my writing style according to each professor. Of course there are some basics to writing, but at the college level you will find that English profs all think their way is the right way. Writing is not like math. 2+2 is always 4. However with writing it is not always that way. It is very subjective. My mother taught me a good trick. Almost all college professors have something published from articles to their dissertation. If you really want to know what kind of style they like...read their own writing publications. Basically, you have to cater to what they want because it is their class. Right or wrong, that is how it is. So you may write a certain way for one prof that you know has pet peeves about different things. That is my advice!

[kalanamak]

Just an FYI, I was taught a business model in college by a really wonderful professor (who I liked so much, I moved from course to course just to follow him). This is the concept:

 

http://www.barbaraminto.com/concept.html

 

Unless it is something brief, I do not put all my points in the opening paragraph.

[gardening momma]

I was never taught to include/preview all my points in the opening paragraph. I was taught to introduce the topic and include a thesis statement, and then support it with points in the following paragraphs. Supporting points were not mentioned specifically until their individual paragraphs.

:iagree:

[WiseOwlKnits]

I don't think I've ever had to write a five-paragraph essay for anything...even our papers in high school were five pages or more. In college, I know I never had to write anything shorter than five pages (I was an English and History major).

 

In TX in the 90s, that's what we were taught to write - our district taught to the test like so many districts do these days. And the old rubric they used for scoring the essay section actually took off points if it wasn't in a 5-paragraph format. So I have vivid memories of being taught to write...and then being taught, "But don't do it like that on the test or they'll take points off." :glare:

[Garga]

I was never taught to include/preview all my points in the opening paragraph. I was taught to introduce the topic and include a thesis statement, and then support it with points in the following paragraphs. Supporting points were not mentioned specifically until their individual paragraphs.

 

Another vote for this one. The last college paper I wrote was only 2 years ago, and that's how it was done.