Dd's friend has taken the

[BMW]

abortion pill. It's over. She did watch the ultrasound, but didn't change her mind. Thank you for caring. It's very hard for me to think of her coming over and me looking her in the eyes... I KNOW I need to love her, but, it's hard to accept. I am proud of my dd... and I know she will be a good friend to her, while holding to her own convictions.

[OnTheBrink]

I'm so sorry. :grouphug:

[Orthodox6]

May the soul of the innocent departed rest in peace.

 

The girl was under tremendous pressure from PP to make this decision. (Yes, I believe this firmly, despite the scattered few presences of better-behaving PP centers.) She also was under unbearable pressure from her mother, from what you have posted. Cannot underestimate the influence of fear.

 

Perhaps you will be better able to offer "acceptance in love" of the girl's choice because you are honest with yourself that you find it nearly impossible to do it. You are not fooling yourself with false piety, you know your limits and temptations. Thus, already you are stronger and able to pray yourself toward acting as you know Christ would want you to do. My prayers continue for you, your dd, dd's friend, and the innocent, who now is with God.

[Tami]

Way to go for being such a caring Mom and mentor. Remind your dd that people do all sorts of things they would never normally consider when in Crisis Mode. I pray you will find mercy in your heart for this young friend. Be sure to talk to your daughter about signs of depression, which may come up later when reality hits this young woman. I hope that this will be a wake-up call for the friend to get on a better path.

 

How very sad for all involved.

[Rita]

Thank you for the update, even though it is so sad. I have been praying earnestly for her. I will pray that you and your dd can continue to have a loving relationship with this girl.

Blessings,

Rit

[BamaTanya]

:grouphug:

I know this is terribly difficult for you. I hope you can find a way to continue your relationship with this girl. Who knows what your love will mean to her in the future?

When I was in college, my family had a teen relative come to live with us for a year. It was an awful year. She rebelled against the example and all the standards of my parents. It ended terribly, and I was thrilled when she was gone.

A few years later, when she got pg and later married, our relationship grew. She knew where to turn for love and support . . . and where to find the model of family that she wanted for her little one. The change is unbelievable. The relationship is so close -- closer, even, than many people have with their immediate families.

I's sorry for this whole situation, but know that the precious one is resting in the palm of His hand!

[phathui5]

I'm so sorry to hear that.

[mamamace]

I'm so sorry. My heart is aching.

[Chris in VA]

I'm sorry for this outcome. I will continue to pray for her. And for you.

[Pretty in Pink]

Thank you for the update. I will continue to pray for the girl. I am so saddened right now.

[Nakia]

I am sick with sadness. What a terrible outcome. I will continue to pray for you, your dd, and this young girl. :grouphug:

[runninmommy]

Oh, how sad. My heart breaks for that poor baby, and it's mom.

[HeatherLynn]

That is so sad. I don't think I could welcome her into my home anymore. What she did is not okay.

 

I wouldn't stay friends with anyone who molested a child and killing one is no better in my eyes.

[KingM]

Its a sad situation all around. I hope she chooses some type of birth control now.

 

I agree. I wish teens were better educated about birth control and had quick, easy ways to get access so that they're not backed into choosing between two unpleasant alternatives.

[Rita]

That is so sad. I don't think I could welcome her into my home anymore. What she did is not okay.

 

I wouldn't stay friends with anyone who molested a child and killing one is no better in my eyes.

 

It saddens me that you feel that way. The poor girl would be tossed out by her parents for getting pregnant, and tossed out by you for killing the baby. While I in no way agree with what she did, what she needs right now is love.

Rita

[2cents]

Dupl post

[2cents]

It saddens me that you feel that way. The poor girl would be tossed out by her parents for getting pregnant, and tossed out by you for killing the baby. While I in no way agree with what she did, what she needs right now is love.

Rita

 

:iagree:

[PineFarmMom]

I agree. I wish teens were better educated about birth control and had quick, easy ways to get access so that they're not backed into choosing between two unpleasant alternatives.

 

:confused::confused: Contraceptives are everywhere and very often free. How would they not have access? It's not a lack of "education" that most teens are suffering from but more of a lack of initiative. Any friends I had in hs that wound up pregnant KNEW what caused it and how to prevent it...it was that they chose not to take the measures necessary because they were inconvenient measures at the moment.

[Tree House Academy]

That is so sad. I don't think I could welcome her into my home anymore. What she did is not okay.

 

I wouldn't stay friends with anyone who molested a child and killing one is no better in my eyes.

 

Would Christ have felt this way?

 

Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

 

Matthew 7.1-5

 

I realize it is likely that you never had an abortion, but is your sin, in some way, more okay in the eyes of God? In the eyes of man, one sin can be worse than another...but in the eyes of God, they aren't. Thou shalt not kill is written on the same stone as "Honor your mother and father" and "Thou shalt not bear false witness (Lie)."

 

 

Your response is so hard for me to understand becuase my best friend made this choice. No, I don't agree with her choice, but I understand her fear and her anguish and I see, everyday, her heartache over what she did. She has to make peace with GOD...not with ME. All I can do is love her the way I always have. God works through his people...

 

 

Edited July 23, 2009 by Tree House Academy

[jenL]

Such terribly sad news. Praying for all of you as you struggle with the pain of this.

[astrid]

That is so sad. I don't think I could welcome her into my home anymore. What she did is not okay.

 

I wouldn't stay friends with anyone who molested a child and killing one is no better in my eyes.

 

WOW. Hey, I'm no expert on Christianity, but I just can't help but wonder....

 

What Would Jesus Do?

 

Do you absolutely know that everyone with whom you are friends, or have ever welcomed into your home, hasn't had an abortion?

 

Between this and the "whatever happened to wire coat hangers and crazy doctors" comments, I'm really left shaking my head.

 

Astrid

[KingM]

:confused::confused: Contraceptives are everywhere and very often free. How would they not have access? It's not a lack of "education" that most teens are suffering from but more of a lack of initiative. Any friends I had in hs that wound up pregnant KNEW what caused it and how to prevent it...it was that they chose not to take the measures necessary because they were inconvenient measures at the moment.

 

You're probably right. Teens are infected with short term thinking, which is about 90% of the problem.

 

But there is such a stigma in some communities about BC for the unmarried that I don't think this helps the matter.

[coralloyd]

:grouphug: :crying:

[mommylawyer]

I'm so incredibly saddened by this news. Please continue to love this girl despite her decision. Given what you've said about her mother, she needs an adult woman to look to in times of need - a role model who is not her mother. My prayers with you, your dd, her friend, and the innocent.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

:grouphug: :crying:

:iagree:

[Anne Rittenhouse]

:confused::confused: Contraceptives are everywhere and very often free. How would they not have access? It's not a lack of "education" that most teens are suffering from but more of a lack of initiative. Any friends I had in hs that wound up pregnant KNEW what caused it and how to prevent it...it was that they chose not to take the measures necessary because they were inconvenient measures at the moment.

 

 

Ummmm no....they are not available everywhere and they are certainly not free, nor is it easy. As a married woman, with a medical history that makes another pregnancy lethal in my case, it took three months and four office visits to get a script written....then I had to find a pharmacy that would fill it....the last pharmacist to have the script ripped it in half and gave me a pro-life lecture. Yeah, pro-life....the life I'm trying to protect at this point is my own and my roll as a mom to the kid I already have....but I digress. There are places in the US where women's healthcare is sorely lacking. Yes, I'm sad for the girl's outcome, but the real tragedy happened well before conception.

[Pretty in Pink]

When I was growing up you could get free condoms all day long at the Health Department. Maybe things have changed?

[Lawana]

Ummmm no....they are not available everywhere and they are certainly not free, nor is it easy. As a married woman, with a medical history that makes another pregnancy lethal in my case, it took three months and four office visits to get a script written....then I had to find a pharmacy that would fill it....the last pharmacist to have the script ripped it in half and gave me a pro-life lecture. Yeah, pro-life....the life I'm trying to protect at this point is my own and my roll as a mom to the kid I already have....but I digress. There are places in the US where women's healthcare is sorely lacking. Yes, I'm sad for the girl's outcome, but the real tragedy happened well before conception.

 

Where did this happen, if you don't mind my asking? I've never come across anything remotely like this.

 

Lawana

[KingM]

Yeah, pro-life....the life I'm trying to protect at this point is my own and my roll as a mom to the kid I already have....but I digress. There are places in the US where women's healthcare is sorely lacking. Yes, I'm sad for the girl's outcome, but the real tragedy happened well before conception.

 

This is what I find so frustrating about the abortion debate. Why can't both sides continue to argue their points while setting about reducing the rate of unwanted pregnancy before it reaches the point of abortion?

 

You could reduce the rate of abortion overnight by making sure a woman could walk into any pharmacy and request the morning after pill, no questions asked. Even if you don't like the idea, surely stopping the implantation of a fertilized egg would be better than aborting a 12 week fetus.

[Stacia]

Gotta agree w/ Astrid, KingM, and Anne Rittenhouse in this thread.

[Greta]

That is so sad. I don't think I could welcome her into my home anymore. What she did is not okay.

 

I wouldn't stay friends with anyone who molested a child and killing one is no better in my eyes.

 

This just heaped more sadness on top of what I was already feeling about all of this. My heart aches for that poor little baby AND for this young woman. They have both suffered a terrible tragedy.

Edited July 23, 2009 by GretaLynne
typo

[Orthodox6]

You might not be familiar with the firm belief of Catholics, Orthodox, (and perhaps some Protestants ?) that God creates and bestows a human soul concurrently with the moment of conception by egg/sp&rm. For us within that worldview, there is no difference; both actions constitute abortion/murder. Others consider further development of the baby necessary before considering the process wrong. Part of the problem is there is no universal agreement, held by all people of all religions (and of no religion) on when life begins. The government's laws, being impersonal [cough] have an impossible, incoherent allegiance to "one size fits all."

 

You could reduce the rate of abortion overnight by making sure a woman could walk into any pharmacy and request the morning after pill, no questions asked. Even if you don't like the idea, surely stopping the implantation of a fertilized egg would be better than aborting a 12 week fetus.

[KingM]

You might not be familiar with the firm belief of Catholics, Orthodox, (and perhaps some Protestants ?) that God creates and bestows a human soul concurrently with the moment of conception by egg/sp&rm. For us within that worldview, there is no difference; both actions constitute abortion/murder.

 

Yes, I'm aware of that. This is why I awknowledged that it would be a difficult step to take. However, you can still argue that the one is better than the other on the grounds that a fertilized, but unimplanted egg does not feel pain and it would be much less traumatic for the woman's body as well.

 

But apart from that, there are many abortion foes that do not believe that preventing the fertilization of an unimplanted, fertilized egg is akin to abortion. For example, I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that in Jewish tradition, the fetus doesn't have a soul until the woman feels it "quickening." I think there are other religious, as well as secular abortion foes who would differentiate between preventing implantation and terminating the life of a fetus.

 

I also think that pro-choice groups should work toward making abortion more rare.

 

The government's laws, being impersonal [cough] have an impossible, incoherent allegiance to "one size fits all."

 

Well, what else should they do, enshrine one religious worldview over another? As it is, it leaves the question neutral and leaves it to one's own conscience. Seems like that's the only reasonable option.

[Orthodox6]

What I wrote conveys my point that, in a pluralistic society, the government has no choice but to attempt the impossible [of legislating where unanimity is impossible]. I was very clear that no consensus on the facets of the topic exists.

 

Yes, I'm aware of that. This is why I awknowledged that it would be a difficult step to take. However, you can still argue that the one is better than the other on the grounds that a fertilized, but unimplanted egg does not feel pain and it would be much less traumatic for the woman's body as well.

 

But apart from that, there are many abortion foes that do not believe that preventing the fertilization of an unimplanted, fertilized egg is akin to abortion. For example, I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that in Jewish tradition, the fetus doesn't have a soul until the woman feels it "quickening." I think there are other religious, as well as secular abortion foes who would differentiate between preventing implantation and terminating the life of a fetus.

 

I also think that pro-choice groups should work toward making abortion more rare.

 

 

 

Well, what else should they do, enshrine one religious worldview over another? As it is, it leaves the question neutral and leaves it to one's own conscience. Seems like that's the only reasonable option.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

That is so sad. I don't think I could welcome her into my home anymore. What she did is not okay.

 

I wouldn't stay friends with anyone who molested a child and killing one is no better in my eyes.

 

 

Well, this flies in direct contrast with the number of loving Christian mothers I have met who credit their salvation and success as a mother, adult, and Christian with the knowledge that they have been forgiven for having such a past.

 

According to them, that forgiveness has come from above and below. And made all the difference in their lives.

 

For some this is part of their testimony for others it is far more personal and private.

 

Stick with her BMW, she needs you now.

[KingM]

What I wrote conveys my point that, in a pluralistic society, the government has no choice but to attempt the impossible [of legislating where unanimity is impossible]. I was very clear that no consensus on the facets of the topic exists.

 

Okay, I see. Yes, it's very difficult to imagine how we will ever resolve this debate. And people are so divided that relatively minor swings in opinion, courts, etc., will cause huge changes over time, which is not going to help matters any.

[HRAAB]

I'm so sorry, for her and her baby. I believe she needs you now more than ever. She needs to see unconditional love, forgiveness, feel friendship and witness your example. You and dd are doing the right thing.

 

Janet

[Erica in PA]

That is so sad. I don't think I could welcome her into my home anymore. What she did is not okay.

 

I wouldn't stay friends with anyone who molested a child and killing one is no better in my eyes.

 

You're taking a lashing for saying this, and probably will continue to do so, but I understand your sentiments. *Everyone* has a point at which they would not be able to condone another person's immoral behavior-- would those who've condemned your comment here welcome someone who had killed their 2 year old into their home? How about someone who recently molested a child? Probably not. It's not about being judgmental, then, it's about which offense is great enough to warrant that response. It's a gray area, and I don't think you deserve to be attacked for taking this position.

 

I don't what I would do. On the one hand, I would hope to help influence this girl for the better, and be a support to her since she seems to be lacking that at home... on the other hand, it would be very hard knowing that she just looked at a video of her growing, thriving baby, and still willfully decided to end its life. I definitely could not convey that I in any way agreed with her decision.

[Lovedtodeath]

You're taking a lashing for saying this, and probably will continue to do so, but I understand your sentiments. *Everyone* has a point at which they would not be able to condone another person's immoral behavior-- would those who've condemned your comment here welcome someone who had killed their 2 year old into their home? How about someone who recently molested a child? Probably not. It's not about being judgmental, then, it's about which offense is great enough to warrant that response. It's a gray area, and I don't think you deserve to be attacked for taking this position.

 

I don't what I would do. On the one hand, I would hope to help influence this girl for the better, and be a support to her since she seems to be lacking that at home... on the other hand, it would be very hard knowing that she just looked at a video of her growing, thriving baby, and still willfully decided to end its life. I definitely could not convey that I in any way agreed with her decision.

:iagree:Forgiveness is a more complex issue than we are led to believe. It is most often given after repentence. Then again those who do not claim to be our brother are not judged as harshly to begin with, neither are those who are not willfully and knowingly doing wrong.

[KingM]

Eliana,

 

Thanks for that. Interesting as always, if intellectually overwhelming. ;)

 

You're taking a lashing for saying this, and probably will continue to do so, but I understand your sentiments. *Everyone* has a point at which they would not be able to condone another person's immoral behavior

 

Well, that's a good point. She's being consistent in her definition of the word murder at least.

 

I guess the fact that I found myself recoiling from her statement means that I do not equate abortion with murder.

 

I am still deeply troubled with abortion however, as whether or not a fetus is the same as a human life, an abortion is still an act of violence against something defenseless. This is why I really would like to see abortions reduced, in favor of better education, access to birth control, and widespread availability of the morning after pill.

[PineFarmMom]

Ummmm no....they are not available everywhere and they are certainly not free, nor is it easy. As a married woman, with a medical history that makes another pregnancy lethal in my case, it took three months and four office visits to get a script written....then I had to find a pharmacy that would fill it....the last pharmacist to have the script ripped it in half and gave me a pro-life lecture. Yeah, pro-life....the life I'm trying to protect at this point is my own and my roll as a mom to the kid I already have....but I digress. There are places in the US where women's healthcare is sorely lacking. Yes, I'm sad for the girl's outcome, but the real tragedy happened well before conception.

 

Are you talking about bc pills for yourself? I guess I'm not clear on what you're saying you can't get a prescription for??

 

As for bc, I must be completely unaware of the differences across the country, because even in our city the college hands them out on the students' first day along with a big "talk". PP hands them out and bc pills for very cheap, last I heard.

 

I stand by my original statement: teenagers are educated enough and do have access to bc. If nothing else, if they want to that badly, they can get it at the corner drug store. Irresponsibility and the idea that "it won't happen to me" are the main factors in teen pregnancy. I knew at 10 what caused pregnancy.

[Erica in PA]

I am still deeply troubled with abortion however, as whether or not a fetus is the same as a human life, an abortion is still an act of violence against something defenseless. This is why I really would like to see abortions reduced, in favor of better education, access to birth control, and widespread availability of the morning after pill.

 

I'm with you on the first two: education and access to birth control. The third I disagree on, and I just responded about it to you on the other thread. ;)

 

I appreciate hearing that from you, KingM, that you are troubled by abortion on the grounds that is "an act of violence against something defenseless". That is some significant common ground between us on that point.

[PineFarmMom]

You're taking a lashing for saying this, and probably will continue to do so, but I understand your sentiments. *Everyone* has a point at which they would not be able to condone another person's immoral behavior-- would those who've condemned your comment here welcome someone who had killed their 2 year old into their home? How about someone who recently molested a child? Probably not. It's not about being judgmental, then, it's about which offense is great enough to warrant that response. It's a gray area, and I don't think you deserve to be attacked for taking this position.

 

 

I agree with what you're saying. I do equate it with murder, but it still is harder for me to swallow not allowing someone in my home after they had done it. My heart immediately turns to pity when I hear someone has had an abortion (even though the act itself is infuriating), because I know the regret will come...unless they stuff it, which will make it even worse some day. One thing I really appreciate about these pregnancy crisis centers is their post-abortion counseling, helping girls/women to feel whole again and forgiven. I've just seen so many broken women who spent so much more time and regret and hurt over that baby than they would have had they chosen life. :(

 

On this topic, I have a family member at this moment who has purposely removed someone from their life who is not allowed in their home anymore because that person had an affair. I agree with my family member's decision, Biblically. Opening their home would seem like okaying that behavior.

[HeatherLynn]

You're taking a lashing for saying this, and probably will continue to do so, but I understand your sentiments. *Everyone* has a point at which they would not be able to condone another person's immoral behavior-- would those who've condemned your comment here welcome someone who had killed their 2 year old into their home? How about someone who recently molested a child? Probably not. It's not about being judgmental, then, it's about which offense is great enough to warrant that response. It's a gray area, and I don't think you deserve to be attacked for taking this position.

 

I don't what I would do. On the one hand, I would hope to help influence this girl for the better, and be a support to her since she seems to be lacking that at home... on the other hand, it would be very hard knowing that she just looked at a video of her growing, thriving baby, and still willfully decided to end its life. I definitely could not convey that I in any way agreed with her decision.

 

 

Exactly. I really don't care if others want to attack me for my view, I do view it the same as killing your newborn (or child of any age). I would pray for her, yes, but I would not want her in my home or around my children. She was going to be tossed out on her duff but had plenty of options for places to go. Their are unwed mother homes all over the US and also there were plenty willing to take her in here from the boards. So, she killed her baby and tossed it out of it's home.

 

For the record I have friends that have aborted in the past. That is their past and not their present. If I was friends with someone and they had an abortion, I would distance myself from them, while continuing to pray for them. All my friends KNOW my stance on abortion and would not be surprised.

 

I see some of your reasoning of needing to love her more the same as loving any other murder the day after they commit their crime. Sure, you can love them but I'd do it from arms length. They wouldn't be welcome around me or my children. Same with a child molestor. Do they deserve God's forgiveness? NO. None of us do, but by his grace and his sacrifice we have it.

 

 

You are entitled to your opinion, as I am mine.

[Lovedtodeath]

I am still deeply troubled with abortion however, as whether or not a fetus is the same as a human life, an abortion is still an act of violence against something defenseless. This is why I really would like to see abortions reduced, in favor of better education, access to birth control, and widespread availability of the morning after pill.

I was not aware that their is an abortion pill, and a morning after pill, two different things. :001_huh: I guess I had no reason to look into it b/c I don't trust what people will say that the morning after pill does and doesn't do.

 

I am learning that KingM is much more complex than I originally thought. Being a Christian far from the mainstream, I can understand the hurt feelings when one is misunderstood. I want to offer my apologies for assuming things. :)

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

For the record I have friends that have aborted in the past. That is their past and not their present.

 

But if everyone in their past had reacted they way you are currently reacting I doubt they would have ever become the sort of person you would want to be friends with.

 

Condoning and forgiving are not necessarily the same.

[KingM]

I am learning that KingM is much more complex than I originally thought. Being a Christian far from the mainstream, I can understand the hurt feelings when one is misunderstood. I want to offer my apologies for assuming things. :)

 

That is a very kind gesture, but no apology is necessary. These virtual discussions are so tricky. We don't always convey the correct tone, or we post in haste, or we misunderstand. Sometimes I simply lose track of people and conversations when they start growing quickly.

 

But even when people flat-out disagree, I think we can learn a lot from this type of discussion. That's the best thing about a place like this, IMO, that we can consider other points of view that might not otherwise cross our path.

[BMW]

Thank you all... this is a very difficult topic and situation. I don't believe that she really cared deeply for the child... that is what offends me... that she could be so flippant with the life of another... she just didn't see the baby as a "life". I don't think our sentiments and all that dd shared with her changed her mind. She was NOT raised to regard the baby as a living person, she was raised and taught that unplanned/unwanted pregnancies should be handled this way... that it was better to end the pregnancy so as not to be inconvenienced and to have to live out the consequences. This was definately how she was raised. Dd and I are the opposite. From the beginning my dd grieved and did all she could to change her friend's mind. My dd said something like, "I don't want this to change our friendship." I went to her later and said, 'There is no way that this can NOT change the friendship... it will affect you, her and your friendship no matter what." The girl has distanced herself greatly from us this past week. I know my dd... she will be friendly... she will continue to be a friend and hold on to her beliefs...

 

No, I wouldn't let a murdered into my home... I know that technically abortion is murder... but, someone who plots a molestation and/or murder of another person who is outside a womb... who has parents, siblings, cousins, grandparents... that, to me, is on a different level. Although, I will say that I cried deeply when my neice/nephew twins were aborted... to save my sil's life. I was SO upset. Sil still died. I would have rather the twins died naturally in the womb, though.

 

Anyway... I guess it goes back to this... someone on this board once asked about "could you have a homosexual relative over for a holiday dinner with your children present?" I learned a lot from that thread... most importantly... if I cannot sit down for a meal with a "sinner" I am the one with the problem... I can teach my children all day long what I believe is right and wrong... but loving and sharing with others sets the stage for sharing beliefs... why would anyone care what I believe if I wont associate with them?

 

Thanks again... I appreciate all of you and your time.

[KingM]

Although, I will say that I cried deeply when my neice/nephew twins were aborted... to save my sil's life. I was SO upset. Sil still died. I would have rather the twins died naturally in the womb, though.

 

Oh, that is heartbreaking. :(

[Orthodox6]

Not sure whether I will be misrepresenting your viewpoint, but am responding to what I think your vp is. . . . My forgiveness of another is not to be predicated upon whether or not the other person has repented. At least, not within our [Orthodox] religious tradition. The Lord's Prayer commands me to forgive other people without strings attached.

 

 

 

 

:iagree:Forgiveness is a more complex issue than we are led to believe. It is most often given after repentence. Then again those who do not claim to be our brother are not judged as harshly to begin with, neither are those who are not willfully and knowingly doing wrong.