If you lived/have lived in a country with socialized medicine.....

[Michelle in AL]

Are you happy with the health care there?

 

Have you truly seen delayed treatment?

 

I've seen one documentary, albeit very liberally biased, that interviewed people in Canada, Denmark, UK and France. All that were interviewed were very happy with their health care system. We all know that any media can produce a biased result. I'd love to hear from real people that have experienced this system. Our family are health care providers and we'll be greatly impacted by any changes. I often wonder if we Americans have been brain washed into thinking that other systems aren't functioning well in order to keep the insurance industry/big business sector rolling. It's surprising to me in this time of change, that the news media hasn't investigated foreign health care systems more prominently.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Michelle in AL

[pqr]

Yes I have and yes I have seen delays, long delays.

 

The nation in question was the UK

 

A recent article

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5446170/Stroke-patients-facing-unacceptable-delays.html

[Sara R]

I don't doubt that other countries have decent health care systems. I doubt they would work that well in America. For one, we're broke. For two, we expect miracles from medicine. Miracles are expensive.

 

Edited to add: Miracles for everyone would quickly bankrupt a country. As I understand it, other countries' socialized health systems are affordable by limiting/rationing/eliminating expensive miracles.

 

I've been a recipient of medical miracles. I appreciate it greatly. Occasionally I think of how many years of an average worker's annual salary my treatment cost (about 3; most of it covered by a catastrophic health plan, thank goodness). And expensive though my treatment was, other people go through treatment that's way more expensive. Where does the money come from? In a time when money is evaporating all over the place, how can we expect to deliver that standard of care to everyone?

Edited July 18, 2009 by Sara R

[Tree House Academy]

I am intersted to hear feedback from those in other countries (or who have lived in other countries). Could you maybe add a poll to your post just so we don't have to wade through the posts to see how the majority feels?

 

Thanks for asking the question!

[ciyates]

I lived in Italy, Spain and a very short time in Austria (my DH was military). Everyone there hated it. The quality of care is way below what most Americans are used to. The wealthier people I knew paid out of their own pocket for private doctors. One of my close friends had to bring her daughter to the US (from Italy) to receive care for a rare type of cancer. A few times we had to go on the economy to receive health care (our tiny base did not have the necessary equipment and it wasn't necessary to send us to Germany for) and we were shocked to see how out dated the equipment was. My DH needed an MRI on his knee and the doctor told us it was an old US machine that was thrown away because it was outdated. It could be that we are that wasteful but I doubt it. My Austrian friend would bring her children to Germany to the US military base for all but the most routine of care. All of that being said Italy had the best plastic surgeons I have ever seen. :D

[Michelle in AL]

Well, some miracles in our ocuntry aren't available to patients unless you have the "right" coverage. I was a Bone Marrow Transplant nurse, and only those who had insurance coverage for the procedure or paid out of pocket could get their miracle.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

When we lived in Italy, a friend had her baby in an Italian hospital. Basically, the doctor caught the baby. She had to bring her own meds and after childbirth necessities, even absorbent pads for the bed. The hospital was bare bones, no fancy birthing rooms like a lot of US hospitals.

[Jean in Newcastle]

In Japan you set aside the day if you have to go to the doctor. Private care doctors will take appointments but you still wait quite a bit. And if you go to the actual hospital then you have to go and wait in a big waiting room. It is first come, first serve. No triage that I could see. You simply go to the receptionist and fill out a card. I'm hoping that someone actually dying would have been taken first- there was no one that bad off when I went.

 

Many elderly go to the hospital for the entire winter. In the hospital there is central heating. At home there often isn't (esp. for the elderly).

 

If you go to the hospital, a family member has to be available to help you. Unless you are really ill and are on IVs or something, the meals are prepared on a hot plate in the ward by your family member. Your family member helps you with things like toileting etc. There is a pull-out bed under the hospital bed for the family member to sleep on.

 

I googled a bit before I posted because my experience was some time ago. But I saw articles from 2009 that described similarly to what I wrote above so I'm confident that this is still true.

[Michelle in AL]

I guess I can't add a poll at this point, but I can tell you it looks like it would be overwhelmingly negative for socialized medicine.

 

I'm so glad I asked this question, it's been very enlightening :ack2:

[pqr]

I guess I can't add a poll at this point, but I can tell you it looks like it would be overwhelmingly negative for socialized medicine.

 

I'm so glad I asked this question, it's been very enlightening :ack2:

 

 

Michelle,

 

It sounds good, but then so does Communism, but the reality is very different from what the proponents expect.

 

Yet another ill of socialized medicine is that it leads to corruption. There is rarely enough time or medicine to go around so in poorer nations it is frequently expected that a patient or his familily will show gratitude to the medical staff in the form of a small "donation."

[Janet in Toronto]

I have lived in Canada all my life, except for five years in the US (Atlanta).

 

I have never experienced delays in necessary treatment. I have never had to discuss money with my doctor, a hospital, or a lab. I have never seen a bill or statement from a doctor, hospital, or insurance company. I do not have to fill out insurance forms when my husband changes jobs. Our insurer has never changed (it's the provincial government). I chose my own doctor, and can change at will.

 

My husband badly tore some ligaments and tendons in his shoulder skiing last Christmas. He was seen in the ER and then twice by an orthopedic surgeon in the hospital within a few days and then two months after the incident, including x-rays. No bills.

 

That being said, my doctor's office could use some new paint and nicer furniture. It's a bit cramped and dingy. But I'd take that any day over the experiences I had in the US, even with excellent health insurance.

[Rose in BC]

I have never experienced delays in necessary treatment. I have never had to discuss money with my doctor, a hospital, or a lab. I have never seen a bill or statement from a doctor, hospital, or insurance company. I do not have to fill out insurance forms when my husband changes jobs. Our insurer has never changed (it's the provincial government). I chose my own doctor, and can change at will.

 

 

I agree with Janet's comments.

 

I have experienced the need for major surgery due to a serious health concern and didn't experience any wait time. I had access to specialists and had surgery in my rural area.

 

My father died of leukemia a number of years ago. He spent 4 months in isolation undergoing chemo. He was diagnosed with the cancer one day and was in a cancer clinic the next. I've heard people say that a national health program would pick and choose who they would treat. Well we certainly didn't experience that with my dad who was 69 at the time of diagnosis, overweight and certain to die, even with chemo. They treated him even though they knew they could only extend his life by 9 mnths. (And btw euthanasia was never considered . . . another thing I always hear about nationalized health care systems).

[FlockOfSillies]

She's in a nursing home, and recently broke her arm during a fall. My in-laws visited her a few weeks ago. They said she was in a great deal of pain, and that her arm was in a sling -- it hadn't even been put in a cast yet, and this was at least two weeks after she broke it.

[TeacherZee]

I've lived in Sweden and the UK for a total of 27 years.

 

I've experienced delays a total of once. That was to see a therapist for my depression and that was because I answered no to the suicidal thoughts question. I was perfectly happy with this because in all honesty I was not quite ready to talk to anyone when my doctor suggested it. By the time I started to see my therapist I had a clearer idea of what I wanted from her and how she could best help me.

 

I've had my wisdom teeth taken out in the UK. Great care during the procedures. Great after care.

 

I can ALWAYS see my GP on the day if I wanted. Or make an appointment for another day if I wanted it. I have never felt rushed during a consultation. My doctors have always taken the time it needed. I have never had to worry about paying for tests.

 

My dad just spent three weeks mostly in the ICU for septicaemia that went to his heart. He had exceptional care at all time. Him and my mum have been incredibly happy with the care he has. He is now home and has to see the doctor every day for medication.

 

I see a midwife for papsmear and my contraceptive needs and I really prefer it. My midwife is fantastic. Midwifes also deliver babies unless there is a problem. Most if not all women in Sweden seem happy with this.

 

My mother works with elderly, they get the same care as my dad just got. When the time comes for the end they are given a choice of where they want to die. They can die at home with constant medical care if they want. Before my sister became a nurse she was often called in as a nurse auxiliary to sit with dying patients.

 

I have nothing but positive experiences of both the UK and Sweden.

[pqr]

 

I have nothing but positive experiences of both the UK and Sweden.

 

 

You are lucky as your experience is atypical.

 

In the UK the "NHS improvement plan, published in July 2004, pledged that by the begining of this year "no one will have to wait longer than 18 weeks from GP referral to hospital treatment".

 

They even admit that recently it could be 18 months.... so again you are very very lucky.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/may/28/nhs-waiting-figures

[Sarah CB]

I'm really happy with our health care system here in Canada. In fact, it's one o the reasons I wouldn't want to live in the US. Two of my Canadian pregnancies have required hospitalization, specialists and induction. I've always been very well taken care of and have never had to worry about paying for any of it.

 

We also have close relatives who have needed surgeries and again I haven't heard anything but praise for their doctors and nurses.

 

I did have to wait about four months for a first appointment with a specialist for my son, but it wasn't for anything even remotely life threatening and once we were in we never had wait times for appointments again.

 

I am really proud of the fact that in Canada everyone enjoys quality health care without ever being crippled by medical bills.

[MomofSeven]

Granted I don't find the idea of buying into a government run healthcare system doesn't thrill, especially considering its record in running such systems as medicaid and social security. However, the idea of paying for illegal aliens and citizens who can but just don't want healthcare is even a bigger turn off. Not to mention the lack of moral perameters surrounding life and end of life issues.

[lea1]

I'm curious, for the Canadians who posted they are very happy with their health care, could you give us an idea of what percentage of your salary goes to taxes?

[Heather in the Kootenays]

I've never experienced delays for important issues for me or my family. We do have a shortage of doctors in my town but that has more to do with rural/urban issues - there just aren't enough doctors who want to live in rural areas. They mostly want to live in the large cities - which is their right.

 

I did go for an MRI at a private clinic once because I didn't want to wait. However, the MRI was to satisfy my own need for more info - it didn't change anything and truly probably wasn't justifiable.

 

I might have to call a couple of weeks ahead for non - urgent issues - checkups etc.

 

I certainly wouldn't say our system is perfect but I don't think I'd trade it for the system south of the 49th despite the fact that dh's company has good medical benefits.

 

One of the issues that comes up seems to be the fear that the elderly might get poorer care because of their age. I haven't seen any evidence of this. My 85 yo mother was all set for knee replacement surgery until the family decided the risks outweighed the benefits.

 

Another issue that arises is the idea that choice of care providers would be limited. That's never been my experience either with the exception of the issue that I mentioned earlier - doctors want to live in urban areas and thus are in high demand in rural areas. My choice of doctor might not be accepting more patients.

 

While it's pretty easy to find people to complain about the system, they seldom want to junk it - just improve it.

[Impish]

Absolute #1 reason dh and I won't even consider a move to the States is the health care system there.

 

I'm very grateful to be in Canada, especially now that I have RSD. Longest wait I've had is to get into my pain specialist, and that was about a month. I've had excellent health care, without ever having to worry about finances. Having to deal with Worker's Comp, and them refusing to pay for certain meds, etc is as close as I never want to get to the insurance carrier provided medical care.

[fivetails]

I live in Canada - and I've never really had any complaints about health care. Well, aside from not really liking my family doc back east, but that was just a personality clash combined with the fact that he'd known me for too long and I think had a little difficulty separating the grown up me from the cuckoo teenager I once was. :tongue_smilie:

 

Now, I really only experienced the medical system in one province - Prince Edward Island. We're living in Alberta now, not sure what it's like here as we haven't had much experience with it yet.

 

Couldn't tell you anything about the taxes (someone asked) - I don't know how that all works.

[Heather in the Kootenays]

It would take longer that I have to get a meaningful number so I did some fast research. As a general rule, it seems that lower and middle income people are taxed more heavily in the US while higher income families are taxed more heavily in Canada.

 

As a member of the more heavily taxed families, I'm OK with that.

[creekland]

My experience comes from family. My step-mom comes from Canada (Nova Scotia) and had to come to the US to get routine hernia surgery done with the latest procedures (less invasive, better recovery). If she had stayed in Canada she was told the wait was roughly 8 months - and the lesser procedure compared to here.

 

She also was here in the states when they found an infection in her leg, that if left much longer, would have killed her. Here she was seen the same day she called by my dad's dr - then rushed to the hospital. She didn't think that would have been same with her dr in Canada. Who knows if she would have realized the quickness of need to go to the hospital in Canada. Here they told her one or two HOURS would have made the difference in living or dying.

 

Then my last experience is with hosting a German exchange student who's father is a dr in Germany. They pay for private insurance - a similar amount to what we were paying at the time - rather than stick with the basics Germany offers. He was fed up with his caseload and his country (though still loved being a dr). I'm pretty sure he opted to retire by now (this was 10 years ago).

 

To all those who claim they get medical care for free in these other countries... um, not so. Have you ever considered the difference in tax rates? When we go to Canada the taxes on everything is extreme compared to what we pay here. You are paying for it - just daily - through what you buy and what you earn.

 

That said... I don't think the US system is perfect either and I have no love affair with insurance companies. I prefer being part of a Christian health co-op and having money put away for the basics I choose to have (check ups, etc). Instead of paying more to the gov't in the form of taxes, I like putting it into an account to pay for my own basic needs. Instead of paying premiums to an insurance company I like sending a monthly allotment to another co-op member who had needs above the $300 deductible - knowing other members will be doing the same for me when I have needs.

 

That's not even perfect (though it works for us) as it doesn't cover pre-existing problems. One needs to join when they are young and healthy - then they are covered when cancer or heart disease (or whatever) hits... Not everyone thinks ahead enough to do this - or even realizes it's an option.

 

I wish I had an answer that would work for everyone, but I don't. My preference at this point would be more co-ops and a low cost clinic for those that fall through the cracks. Eliminate for-profit insurance, but don't replace it with the gov't!

[theresatwist]

Are you happy with the health care there?

 

Have you truly seen delayed treatment?

 

I've seen one documentary, albeit very liberally biased, that interviewed people in Canada, Denmark, UK and France. All that were interviewed were very happy with their health care system. We all know that any media can produce a biased result. I'd love to hear from real people that have experienced this system. Our family are health care providers and we'll be greatly impacted by any changes. I often wonder if we Americans have been brain washed into thinking that other systems aren't functioning well in order to keep the insurance industry/big business sector rolling. It's surprising to me in this time of change, that the news media hasn't investigated foreign health care systems more prominently.

 

No, I haven't personally, but my doctor has. He's an American, but he lived in France for many years and I think he mentions every time I see him how far superior their healthcare system is to ours. Since I don't have any personal experience I can't vouch for it myself. I have had nightmarish experiences with the system here and would love to see change happen. Can't say I feel particularly hopeful though.

[iwka]

I grew up in Poland, mostly in communism times during my childhood. The access to the medical treatments and doctors was totally free, but it wasn't a high standard. The reason for poor standard wasn't that they were underpaid (although they were), but that technically we did not have access to the newest medical advancements. Some doctors were taking bribes. MOst of the doctirs and nurses had a true vocation, they were not doing it for the money. I finished my RN school right when the fall of communism came.

 

The situation now is better and worse at the same time. For better: better equipment, medicine, hospitals. For worse: those who stayed with ONLY socialized system have to wait in longer lines, but not in a case of emergency. The doctors are leaving for better money in Western Europe and are actually sough out around Poland.

 

I've had two C-sections in Poland, having no insurance (I lived in Moscow, Russia then), and I had to stay 3 weeks in hospital for the first dd (overdue, complications after C section and with the baby). I was in a room with 3 other women. We paid around 300 USD for the whole thing. The hospital was modern, comparable to those in Germany. With the second baby, my ds, I stayed for 5 days after C-section, again in a room with 1 other lady. We paid around 100 USD, I think.

 

I had my 3rd baby in Qatar (Perisan Gulf), in a socialized system. By "chance" I got an American doctor who was the main OB in the whole country. I had the best anesthesiologist. Stayed 3 days (C section again) in a private room with a bathroom, TV, catering food (awesome). Paid around 300 USD.

 

My experiences with the kids: my dd and ds were asthmatic and had constant ear infections, required a lot of medical attention on a monthly basis. We did not pay a dime. We've had the best doctors in Poland, even people from across the border would come to one specialist. We've used ER few times, never had to wait, payed nothing. Free screenings, free preventive medicine. You can go any time you want if you had a family doctor. If my kid would have fever I would call and be seen the same day. if the fever was to high, the doctor would come to my house. Again, for free.

 

You could also go to the private doctors or clinics. Even those visits were no more than 10 USD. If my kids had really hard time with their asthma, I would call the same specialist I was seeing, and she would come to my house the same day, 20 USD.

 

Whenever I was pregnant with my 3rd, I had no insurance in Poland, I went to a private doctor for monthly check ups. 20 USD (with USG and whatever else it would be like 10 USD more).

 

Similar story in Qatar, my kids could go any time for free.

 

In both countries medicine has a co-pay system. In Poland we paid 33% of the value of the medicine. In Qatar it was always like...2 USD...

 

All of my friends are in shock when I tell them about health system in the USA. They can't believe how expensive it is.

 

Recently I watched this documentary on Frontline (for free) that compares health systems in Germany, UK, Japan, Taiwan and Switzerland. Switzerland you want to see, since they had the same or very similar system as the USA, but they switched and never looked back.

Here is the link:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/video/flv/generic.html?s=frol02p101&continuous=1

Edited July 18, 2009 by iwka

[Rosie_0801]

I'm happy with our health care system. It could do with some improvements, but there isn't a system anywhere that doesn't.

 

Yes I know of delayed treatment. In some cases you can jump queues by going private, in other cases it makes little difference. The waiting list for public dentists is about 2 years long, so most people will go private or do without. In some cases the delayed treatment was human error, and that happens because no one is perfect. I've been to the emergency department at the hospital feeling bad enough to be hospitalised and had to wait for three hours (that was the middle of the night, it would have been longer during the day.) I took my son in when he was a couple of weeks old, and went straight in to see a doctor. Babies can queue jump, it seems. Some conditions can't be treated in Australia at all, and those people go to the US, if they can afford it. I assume we don't have the population to support training in those areas. One of my old housemates took a psychology job in Ireland which had been advertised on the international market because there was no one in the country qualified for the job, because none of the unis ran a course to qualify them. The population wasn't high enough to make it worthwhile financially. Most of us don't run into those issues, though, thank goodness. Hospital procedures are cheaper over here than the US, even for people not covered by Medicare (tourists and immigrants in their first two years here.) Some doctors bulk bill, but not so many now. A large portion of the fee is refunded by Medicare, though.

 

I don't know how much we pay in taxes for healthcare. I do know that high income earners are charged a Medicare levy. I'm not sure if that's if they don't have private healthcare funds or if it's across the board. I've never been in a higher income bracket and don't have private health care. I think that levy is 1.5% of income. Not too sure because I haven't filled out a tax return in a few years.

 

Rosie

[Peela]

I dont know what you would call our medical system here in Australia. There is a lot of media about it, but we have free public hospitals. I had two babies in the public system and the first was in the main maternity hospital. It was ok- not brilliant because of the amount of intervention they wanted to do, including a caesarian (which I resisted and didtn have) so there certianly wasnt a cost saving issue happening. THe 2nd baby was in a birthing hospital with little intervention and I knew my midwife all along. It was excellent care.

 

YOu do hear of a lot of delays for elective surgery though, and constant problems in the system. Overall, I have never had problems and have been well taken care of whenever i have had to use the public system.

 

Normal doctors are not paid for by the system though. Even with private insurance they are not covered.

 

A few years back teh government put a Medicare levy into the tax system. We are encouraged to get at least basic private health insurance and the government subsidises it- according to age. It is cheaper if you start paying when you are under 30. I think we pay more tax too if we dont have private health insurance.

 

Overall though, the system probably works ok and at the same time there are a lot of problems. Sounds like it is a lot better care though than say, Italy! Through teh public system we have access to all the technology at no cost. We can also enter teh public system as a private patient and get our own rooms and choose our doctors. Or, there are 100% private hospitals as well.

 

I am curious how much your health insurance costs over there? We have the 2nd top cover out of 4 levels, for both hospital cover and extras (chiropractor and dental, etc) and it costs us about $280 a month. Thats probably a bit over $200 a month U.S. $.

[kathymuggle]

The fact is Canada and many western countires with universal healthcare have a longer life expectancy that Americans.

 

Personally, I prefer my dollars to go to the government to manage than to private (and for profit) insurance companies. I question the motives, and ethics, of private insurers more.

 

FWIW - I have never had to wait for emergency care at all. My children did need to wait for dental surgery - but they were not in pain. My mother elected to have an ultrsound at a private clinic versus waiting 2 months for one - but that was more for her peace of mind than anything else.

[iwka]

Forgot to add:

 

right after we came to the USA, did not have insurance, my dh had an accident in Florida, broke his colar bone. In the ER they did maybe 2 xrays and gave iv medicine. The bill was for something like 3 500 USD. I thought I would faint.

 

USA likes only healthy people. You can't get sick here, seriously.

 

Also, diagnosing LDD is insane here. All of it is free "out there", including therapy which may last years.

 

And: all physical therapy is free.

[Shelly in the Country]

Recently I watched this documentary on Frontline (for free) that compares health systems in Germany, UK, Japan, Taiwan and Switzerland. Switzerland you want to see, since they had the same or very similar system as the USA, but they switched and never looked back.

 

 

I saw that same documentary. Full disclosure: I tend toward free-market philosophies as a general rule, but I did find this documentary intriguing. However, I don't trust the clowns (and I am referring to both the Republicans and the Democrats, not just the party in power....I mean that with all sincerity) we have in Washington at the moment to be able to pull this off. Is there any way we can get the Swiss to reorganize our health care system for us? Sort of like consultants?

Edited July 18, 2009 by Shelly in the Country
clarification

[Sara R]

It would take longer that I have to get a meaningful number so I did some fast research. As a general rule, it seems that lower and middle income people are taxed more heavily in the US while higher income families are taxed more heavily in Canada.

 

In the US, lower and middle income families with kids are hardly taxed at all. Pre-paycut, we made about $55,000 per year. We have 3 kids. We didn't owe any (US) federal income tax last year, and got about $1000 back (that we didn't pay in). I think it's completely ridiculous; we're not destitute.

[Heather in the Kootenays]

Bad research obviously. Thanks.

[mamato3 all-boy boys]

Forgot to add:

 

right after we came to the USA, did not have insurance, my dh had an accident in Florida, broke his colar bone. In the ER they did maybe 2 xrays and gave iv medicine. The bill was for something like 3 500 USD. I thought I would faint.

 

USA likes only healthy people. You can't get sick here, seriously.

 

Also, diagnosing LDD is insane here. All of it is free "out there", including therapy which may last years.

 

And: all physical therapy is free.

 

Excuse me if I'm asking too personal a question, but what was the approximate rate of your income taxes in these countries? I have a friend in Sweden (American born), and her husband pays more than 50% of his salary in taxes. Sure, her experiences in the healthcare system (childbirth, speech therapy for her son, hippotherapy for her son, physical therapy, etc.) have been positive, but at what cost?

 

Because....nothing in life is free, especially when the government is involved.

[mamamace]

 

As a homebirther and proponent of midwifery....:D:D:D!!! I love midwives!

[iwka]

Sweden is known for horrible taxes. The richest of the rich in Poland are paying now about 40%, but it is only 1% of population. Medium class pays about 20%.

 

oh, I found new info:

January 2009

From 1.1.2009 the new personal income tax rates in Poland are 18% and 32%, replacing the 2008 rates of 19%-40%.

Poland corporate tax rate for 2009 is 19%, same as in 2008 .The standard V.A.T rate of 22% remains unchanged too.

Edited July 19, 2009 by iwka

[TeacherZee]

Excuse me if I'm asking too personal a question, but what was the approximate rate of your income taxes in these countries? I have a friend in Sweden (American born), and her husband pays more than 50% of his salary in taxes. Sure, her experiences in the healthcare system (childbirth, speech therapy for her son, hippotherapy for her son, physical therapy, etc.) have been positive, but at what cost?

 

Because....nothing in life is free, especially when the government is involved.

 

Yes we pay higher taxes. But our taxes pay for a lot of things that have nothing to do with health care. Add to that the fact that in Sweden we have 9 million citizens in a country roughly the size of California. We have no way of getting the economies of scale that you would in the US. Just no way. This is the same reason why people with rare conditions often have to travel to the US for treatment. There just isn't the patient base for the doctors to keep their skills up. There was a recent documentary series on Swedish television that followed the midwives at one of the large teaching hospitals in Stockholm. One of the midwives who took part in the documentary had previously worked at a smaller hospital. They had about two births a week at that hospital, but they still had to be fully staffed 24/7. I highly doubt this would be the case in the US.

 

Yes we have problems. Yes people gripe about taxes, but no more than I hear in the states (probably a lot less). Yes the taxes are high, but no one in Sweden considers the taxes crippling. They pay for much needed services. Could those services be more efficient? Sure. Could private companies run them better? I am not sure. The train service has been deregulated in Sweden for many years, I have seen no real improvments. As a matter of fact I feel that it has made things worse because it seems like the trains are still late and there is no connection between different companies so journey planning is difficult.

 

These are just my opinions.

[wildflower]

Are you happy with the health care there?

 

Have you truly seen delayed treatment?

 

I've seen one documentary, albeit very liberally biased, that interviewed people in Canada, Denmark, UK and France. All that were interviewed were very happy with their health care system. We all know that any media can produce a biased result. I'd love to hear from real people that have experienced this system. Our family are health care providers and we'll be greatly impacted by any changes. I often wonder if we Americans have been brain washed into thinking that other systems aren't functioning well in order to keep the insurance industry/big business sector rolling. It's surprising to me in this time of change, that the news media hasn't investigated foreign health care systems more prominently.

 

 

check out this link, it is Forbes.com

I first read this article last year and was stunned from what I read in this fiscally conservative magazine.

 

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/1208/092.html

 

after experiencing long term medical problems with a family member and watching their financial demise, then, having a family member in england experiencing the same thing there, the socialized medicine was far superior on many levels. the only down-side is that you have long waits for non-life-threatening procedures, but you do here too if you don;t have the right insurance. my grandmother waxes poetic about healthcare overseas, and she's as conservative as they come in many ways- anti big government for sure!

my personal opinion- if we can bail out bad businessmen, why can't kids see a doctor when they need one? really disgusting IMHO.

[Country Girl]

We have lived in both Canada and Finland and had great healthcare in both places. I gave birth in both places, our kids had minor surgeries in both places, and one of my sons was hospitalized for a few days while in Finland, and we had excellent care, no waiting, and very caring doctors. I realize that the system isn't perfect (nor is ours here in the US) but our experiences were very positive.

[Catherine]

in Scotland is measurably better than it is here.

 

I think this is a good illustration of how people's expectations are one of the enemies of meaningful health care reform. While giving birth in such noisy and unpleasant circumstances is not nice, they must be doing something right, and at a fraction of what childbirth costs here. I would argue that it is probably closer attention to what matters most-and that is NOT frequent\routine prenatal ultrasounds, intrapartum monitoring, and high rates of surgical delivery. We do all of those here, none are based on good science, and in fact could be argued to increase risk to mother and baby in some cases. But because American women expect more intervention as a sign that their provider is "doing something" we get more. The reasons for so much intervention in birth are complicated though and I do not mean to argue that it's a simple problem, only that expectations may be the enemy of meaningful improvement in our health care system.

[Colleen]

I often wonder if we Americans have been brain washed into thinking that other systems aren't functioning well...

Not brainwashed, but perhaps not particularly informed. It's admittedly difficult to assess other health care systems ~ or educational systems, or politcal systems...you name it! ~ without experiencing them firsthand. We tend to draw opinions on anecdotal evidence, as shown at times in this thread. My own experiences with universal health systems in other countries (Canada and Switzerland) has been outstanding.

 

Notice I said "universal health care" rather than "socialized medicine". I do so intentionally because I believe many people mistakenly equate the two, when in reality the former does not necessarily imply the latter. Switzerland is a prime example. Universal coverage works in tandem with private insurers and providers. This in my opinion is an ideal, and one from which the U.S. can learn much.

[Audrey]

Are you happy with the health care there?

 

Have you truly seen delayed treatment?

 

I've seen one documentary, albeit very liberally biased, that interviewed people in Canada, Denmark, UK and France. All that were interviewed were very happy with their health care system. We all know that any media can produce a biased result. I'd love to hear from real people that have experienced this system. Our family are health care providers and we'll be greatly impacted by any changes. I often wonder if we Americans have been brain washed into thinking that other systems aren't functioning well in order to keep the insurance industry/big business sector rolling. It's surprising to me in this time of change, that the news media hasn't investigated foreign health care systems more prominently.

 

 

Yes, very happy here in Canada. I used to be american, so I know both sides of this border. I would never go back to american-style healthcare. I've not experienced these delays, but I also live in a less populated province and we just don't have those kinds of problems here, it seems. As to taxes... I've said this before in other threads, but my dh and I TOGETHER pay less in federal and provincial taxes in one year than I paid ALONE for one year of health insurance premiums in the US.

 

That said, I don't think Canadian healthcare would work in the US. I think the US needs to come up with its own solution and quit ragging on every other healthcare system in the world. I think there is a huge amount of disinformation being spread about what healthcare looks like in other countries, and that disinformation is being used as reasoning against US healthcare. What healthcare is like in another country is largely irrelevant to US healthcare. Every country came up with their own solution, and those solutions are always being re-evaluated and (hopefully) improved upon.

 

Universal healthcare takes work and constant committment. Universal healthcare doesn't just fly in one day, spread magic faery dust and *poof!* you're all covered. If that's what the US is waiting for... well... good luck with that!

Edited July 19, 2009 by Audrey

[ElizabethB]

Does military health care count? It is a version of socialized medicine.

 

It took 6 months after a knee injury (which put me on crutches) for me to get knee surgery. As a result, my post surgery recovery was several weeks longer and higher PT costs because of muscle deterioration due to the large wait time. (It took 3 or 4 months just to get an MRI.) They lost my paperwork for a bit after that, or the surgery would have been much sooner after the MRI, it was very clear after the MRI that I needed surgery. My ER doctor the day I came in for the injury said that if I was not in the military system they would have given me an MRI right then, but the military did not allow it until they had seen me personally first.

 

A few years ago, I had all the symptoms for ovarian cancer and they didn't schedule an ultrasound for 3 1/2 months! (We tried to pay for one ourselves, and found out we couldn't--a catch 22, even though my doctor said a ultrasound was necessary, you can't schedule one in the off base system through a military doctor.) My husband called a bunch of people and eventually we got an off base referral within a week. It turned out to be an ovarian cyst and the fatigue was from food allergies.

 

In retrospect, we could have gone to a local doctor on our own and then paid him and then paid for an ultrasound, but we didn't think of that at the time.

 

Most people with serious medical issues in the military do get good care, but there is the private system as an overflow, and there are delays at times.

[wildflower]

in Scotland is measurably better than it is here.

 

I think this is a good illustration of how people's expectations are one of the enemies of meaningful health care reform. While giving birth in such noisy and unpleasant circumstances is not nice, they must be doing something right, and at a fraction of what childbirth costs here. I would argue that it is probably closer attention to what matters most-and that is NOT frequent\routine prenatal ultrasounds, intrapartum monitoring, and high rates of surgical delivery. We do all of those here, none are based on good science, and in fact could be argued to increase risk to mother and baby in some cases. But because American women expect more intervention as a sign that their provider is "doing something" we get more. The reasons for so much intervention in birth are complicated though and I do not mean to argue that it's a simple problem, only that expectations may be the enemy of meaningful improvement in our health care system.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/parenting/05/08/mothers.index/

[Mommyof4ks]

Yes, very happy here in Canada. I used to be american, so I know both sides of this border. I would never go back to american-style healthcare. I've not experienced these delays, but I also live in a less populated province and we just don't have those kinds of problems here, it seems. As to taxes... I've said this before in other threads, but my dh and I TOGETHER pay less in federal and provincial taxes in one year than I paid ALONE for one year of health insurance premiums in the US.

 

That said, I don't think Canadian healthcare would work in the US. I think the US needs to come up with its own solution and quit ragging on every other healthcare system in the world. I think there is a huge amount of disinformation being spread about what healthcare looks like in other countries, and that disinformation is being used as reasoning against US healthcare. What healthcare is like in another country is largely irrelevant to US healthcare. Every country came up with their own solution, and those solutions are always being re-evaluated and (hopefully) improved upon.

 

Universal healthcare takes work and constant committment. Universal healthcare doesn't just fly in one day, spread magic faery dust and *poof!* you're all covered. If that's what the US is waiting for... well... good luck with that!

 

This is a very interesting thread.

 

I really am glad that the system works in Canada, but like you said it just won't work here. Our bigger problem is that the gov't will most likely not get it right and while they 'figure it out' we still need good medical care. My family has wonderful care right now with our private ins., and all I can base my knowledge of universal care on is medicare/medicaid which is a disaster. Medicare patients that get the best care have a supplement that is very expensive, and from the look of the current bill we will not have that option. My grandparents pay hundreds of dollars a month so that they can get all of the tests that my grandmother needs for her heart because medicare will not pay. She is ok with that because she does not expect to get great care for free, but she will not be able to pay for those tests out of pocket if the supplement is gone.

 

Another question:

There has been some talk about older equipment and such. Are new medical procedures and state of the art medical equipment available in the countries with universal health care? There have been some awesome things discovered (heart surgery that does not require breaking anything) and some great equipment (open MRI) that have come about in the last few years and I don't want to lose medical advances (many others but those came to mind). Not that we will lose what we have, but we may lose some of the ability to continue to discover these things. I hope that makes sense, it is getting late here.

[theresatwist]

Michelle,

 

It sounds good, but then so does Communism, but the reality is very different from what the proponents expect.

 

Yet another ill of socialized medicine is that it leads to corruption. There is rarely enough time or medicine to go around so in poorer nations it is frequently expected that a patient or his familily will show gratitude to the medical staff in the form of a small "donation."

 

Pqr, I don't doubt what you've said is true, but lets also not pretend like there isn't corruption and favoritism in our system. Steve Jobs didn't get that liver transplant so quickly because he was next in line. I'm not disputing that there is far more corruption elsewhere.

[amiechoke]

It's surprising to me in this time of change, that the news media hasn't investigated foreign health care systems more prominently.

 

I'll make the point that you'd have to have an unbiased media before you could expect thorough or rigorous investigation of an issue.

 

Also: the PM of Italy just came here for heart surgery. Congress is trying to write the healthcare bill so they, personally, would be exempt from using a socialized system. Doesn't speak well for how much faith they have in the system, does it?

[teraberry]

The keynote speaker at the Homeschool Convention in Phoenix mentioned in one of his speeches that they lived in Britian previously. When his wife became very ill, they came to America to get proper treatment for her because they could not get quick and proper treatment there. (He said this in the context of talking about nationalized healthcare.)

[TeacherZee]

This is a very interesting thread.

 

Another question:

There has been some talk about older equipment and such. Are new medical procedures and state of the art medical equipment available in the countries with universal health care? There have been some awesome things discovered (heart surgery that does not require breaking anything) and some great equipment (open MRI) that have come about in the last few years and I don't want to lose medical advances (many others but those came to mind). Not that we will lose what we have, but we may lose some of the ability to continue to discover these things. I hope that makes sense, it is getting late here.

 

This is another common misconception about universal health care. As a matter of fact we have state of the art equipment. We have research. One of the Nobel prize winners in 2000 did research into the nervous system at the hospital where my mother used to work. The Nobel prize winners in 2008 were from Germany and France. One of the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world (AstraZeneca) has most of its research in the UK and Sweden.

[Colleen in NS]

Are you happy with the health care there?

 

Have you truly seen delayed treatment?

 

I'm American and Canadian, and I much prefer the Canadian system. Just before I left the States in 1993, I visited a doctor for some problems. He wanted to do a bunch of tests, for which I had no money, so I left. And I was scared. When I got to Ontario, I found out that at the time, people on student visas could be covered under the provincial program, so I saw a doctor there, who examined me, sent me for one test, and that was it. And it was all covered. And the doc found the problem easily and treated it.

 

I've had two c-sections and all the pregnancy visits and hospitalizations, we've had broken bones, asthma hospitalizations, x-rays, ultrasounds, MRIs, echocardiograms, all sorts of things. Last week there was even a hospital to hospital ambulance ride for dd8 and that was covered, too. Even if it wasn't (in other circumstances), I still would only have to pay $134 out of the $700 bill.

 

I've never seen delayed *urgent* treatment. We do have delays in getting to see specialists like the pediatric allergist and a dermatologist, but I don't care because it's not life-threatening, and I don't have to pay for it. Even with those wait lists, I can ask to go on a cancellation list, meaning that if someone cancels, I might be next in line to get call to see if I want to come in earlier.

 

Here in Nova Scotia, we pay 13% tax on non-grocery items and services like phone, electricity, etc.. At first, that was a shock to me. But then I learned how to get frugal.:D which was helpful in many ways other than saving taxes. Also, we don't pay much (but I don't know the numbers) in income taxes because we are low-income and dh is self-employed and can deduct expenses. I've never heard wealthier friends complaining about paying higher taxes that I benefit from. Complaining about the way they're used maybe sometimes, but I generally don't hear people complaining about paying taxes for the health care system.

 

I've always been happy with the care we've gotten. My doctor is a wonderful lady and a family friend. I feel comfortable asking her questions and taking an active part in the medical care of our family. My kids' pediatric allergist, when we first started going to him, was billed as the best one east of Montreal. He is VERY good at explaining things to me and answering my questions. He will be a great help to me with helping my kids learn to deal with their life-threatening allergies as they go through their teen and early adult years. I had both babies in the best women's and children's hospital in the Maritimes. I did stay in wards with noisy babies and such, but at least the staff brought us through birth alive and well.

 

I would LOVE to move back to the States to be nearer to my family and live in a warmer place, but the biggest thing that holds us back from that is health care.

[teraberry]

I'm happy with our health care system. It could do with some improvements, but there isn't a system anywhere that doesn't.

 

Yes I know of delayed treatment. In some cases you can jump queues by going private, in other cases it makes little difference. The waiting list for public dentists is about 2 years long, so most people will go private or do without. In some cases the delayed treatment was human error, and that happens because no one is perfect. I've been to the emergency department at the hospital feeling bad enough to be hospitalised and had to wait for three hours (that was the middle of the night, it would have been longer during the day.) I took my son in when he was a couple of weeks old, and went straight in to see a doctor. Babies can queue jump, it seems. Some conditions can't be treated in Australia at all, and those people go to the US, if they can afford it. I assume we don't have the population to support training in those areas. One of my old housemates took a psychology job in Ireland which had been advertised on the international market because there was no one in the country qualified for the job, because none of the unis ran a course to qualify them. The population wasn't high enough to make it worthwhile financially. Most of us don't run into those issues, though, thank goodness. Hospital procedures are cheaper over here than the US, even for people not covered by Medicare (tourists and immigrants in their first two years here.) Some doctors bulk bill, but not so many now. A large portion of the fee is refunded by Medicare, though.

 

I don't know how much we pay in taxes for healthcare. I do know that high income earners are charged a Medicare levy. I'm not sure if that's if they don't have private healthcare funds or if it's across the board. I've never been in a higher income bracket and don't have private health care. I think that levy is 1.5% of income. Not too sure because I haven't filled out a tax return in a few years.

 

Rosie

 

Yes, no system is perfect, but it does surprise me that you are happy with your health care system when you say the waiting list for a public dentist is two years long. Also, the amount you pay in taxes is crucial to whether or not you could determine if you were happy with your health care and you do not know how much you pay (you said), so I'm not sure how you can be happy with it without knowing how much you're paying for it. My guess would be that you are paying more than you might think.