A little dumbfounded about ps

[SunshineMom]

We had a some friends visit for a couple of days. My friend is a ps teacher and her son is 8yr, going into 3rd grade. My 6yr and him were collecting rocks and chatting about their finds. The topic came up about whether rocks were alive. He said yes rocks were alive, what? I explained they were not and gave several measurements to find out if something was alive or not. Well my 6yr pipes in and says "well, at one time if it was a fossil, it did hold something that was alive." Smarty pants. Of course, my friend's head whipped around to her. I told my daughter to quiet down and under her breath she says "I showed him my fossils but he was unimpressed." Later this same child said that fruit were really vegetables because they had seeds, again, what? I just don't get it.......how could he be so wrong yet his mother is a teacher? My friend and I discussed problems with the public school system. She reported that kids are passed on from grade to grade even though some should fail, parents pushing kids into TAG type programs (advanced) when not warranted and kids lacking in basic skills. I have been reading "The Conspiracy of Ignorance" and Martin Gross's overview of the pubic school system was confirmed by my friend's teaching experiences. I am a little dumbfounded. I knew ps was lacking but I just didnot know by how much. Additonally, my daughter is participating in a science camp designed for 1st graders in Sept. It has been a waste of our $135 and really is a sciency daycare program. My husband is throwing up his hands saying that we could have bought several books/materials with that money instead. I thought a class from a Science Museum would not be dumbed down, I was wrong. I am getting the message however it is hard to hear.

[Snickerdoodle]

Later this same child said that fruit were really vegetables because they had seeds

 

I can see my 8yo boy saying things like this. He says all kinds of strange things trying to see if he can get a rise out of me (or someone else) and he can do it with a surprisingly straight face.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Snickerdoodle

[mcconnellboys]

Yes, for about the past 6 years now, I've been requesting programming for field trips and from outside speakers that are geared toward middle grades and up. Even then, sometimes the content is so dumbed down that I've found it to be a complete waste of time....

[Saille]

I had the same problem you're having with science camp with a local art program. The thing that flummoxes me is that public school kids in this area do get art instruction at school; if their parents are putting them in an additional art class, surely they expect it to be enrichment, not just arts and crafts type stuff, right? This is connected with a prestigious local art school, so I was shocked at how low the bar was set. The ceramics portion was wonderful, but the painting/drawing segment was...well. I wouldn't have shelled out that money had I known my kids would never touch anything better than prang tray watercolors and smelly markers, you know? I sent them a letter explaining my issues with the class, but the director's reply seemed overly conciliatory and sort of off the point. I ended up wishing I'd used the tuition to pay for the type of supplies I thought they'd be using...and I've decided to use Artistic Pursuits this fall.

 

I also think that ps breeds a sort of general disinterest in topics perceived as "academic".

 

I'm going to pick up the book you mentioned. The Language Police by Diane Ravitch had a similar effect on me.

[nova147]

I hear you on the ps. My nephew is going into 5th grade this fall. My sister has a teaching degree (she teaches in a preschool, but she has a license to teach up to 6th grade). At the end of the school year, my sister had a feeling that her son was missing some important math information. He did ok in math last year, but her instinct said something wasn't right. So she took him to a tutoring service and had him evaluated. He was basically working at a 2nd grade level in math because he had big gaps in his understanding of basic math concepts. There were some more advanced things that he understood, but he was missing so much of the early stuff that he couldn't learn much of what he was supposed to (math being something that builds on itself). So now she is paying nearly $7000 to get him caught up in math and reading comprehension (which he was also very behind in, but no one knew that) this summer. She's really frustrated that she has to pay to have him learn what the ps was supposed to have taught him. She also frustrated that SHE was the one who noticed the problem -- why didn't the teacher know something was wrong?

 

The ps system is overworked and poorly structured. It's way too easy for kids to just get by, not really learning much, but continuing to be advanced grade levels. I think there are plenty of places to lay the blame -- with the legislatures who make rules regarding education, but know nothing about eduction; with administrators who are more interested in test scores than in real learning; with teachers who just want to get through the day; with parents who blindly trust the system. But I don't know what the solution is. Sometimes I feel like homeschooling is a cop out. Like I should send my kids to ps to help solve the problem. But I'm not willing to do that to them.

[SunshineMom]

I am begining to rethink what it means for a child to be accelerated or advanced. How can I fairly evaluate how my children are doing, if my measurement is based on ps current standards? It would be hard for most homeschool students not to outshine ps students. Even those "what your 1st/2nd, etc. grader should know" books seem to favor low standards or am I wrong? I guess I could be looking at TIMSS and do some digging into other (Canada, England, etc.) educational standards for a more accurate picture.

[EKS]

I am begining to rethink what it means for a child to be accelerated or advanced. How can I fairly evaluate how my children are doing, if my measurement is based on ps current standards?

 

Exactly!

 

My younger son (1st grade by age) recently had IQ/achievement testing done. He had also just finished Singapore 2B. He doesn't seem particularly gifted in math to me, just accelerated because he is globally gifted. Anyway, the only math he knows is what he has been taught and his percentile rank was >99.9. This was apparently what an average 6th grader would be able to do! The highest level thing he was able to do was multiply a multidigit number by a single digit number.

 

My older one did the same thing when he was evaluated in 4th grade. He blew the tester away by scoring at the "adult" level in math computation. He had recently finished MUS Zeta.

 

I've always said that my kids math scores say far more about average "x" graders than about my children's abilities.

[SunshineMom]

It sounds like it is safe to say that homeschool curriculum is fairly accurate in assessing grade level whereas ps standards (curriculum) are extremely low? The gap between a child homeschooled vs ps schooled is tremendous! Singapore math gives grade guidelines but how accurate are those if they are based on ps standards?

[Little House]

I gave up on finding a science camp for my kids and decided to run my own. I am doing 4 days on frogs for my younger kids and 4 days on bridges for my older. I invited a few of my kids friends and the kids from our homeschool co-op and now I have more kids than I can take. Some of the kids coming will be ps kids, and it will be interesting to see how they do compared to the hs kids. Everything available seems geared to offering daycare, it is hard to find something truely educational.

[Mommy22alyns]

What I don't understand is why kids spend nearly 7 hours a day in school and have homework at night, yet have little to show for it.

 

 

 

:iagree: In my mind, it's easier to just teach the girls at home for a few hours and be done the rest of the day than to send them to school, pick them up, supervise homework, follow up with teachers, deal with extracurriculars, etc. etc. etc. HSing is more efficient for me.

[amsunshine]

Singapore math gives grade guidelines but how accurate are those if they are based on ps standards?

Speaking from experience (I just pulled my two dds out of ps this past year), Singapore's grade guidelines are not "based on ps standards". The material in Singapore is more advanced than the public school math in my district, at least. I believe this is probably true of most ps districts.

 

In my mind, it's easier to just teach the girls at home for a few hours and be done the rest of the day than to send them to school, pick them up, supervise homework, follow up with teachers, deal with extracurriculars, etc. etc. etc. HSing is more efficient for me.

 

I agree with this.

[Desert Rat]

I'm amazed at the amount of homework ps kids get in our area. 3rd graders are coming home with 2-3 hours A NIGHT! These kids are having to give up sports and music to do their school work. We have a very rigorous homeschool (I've been told) and still finish in 5 hours or so, for 2 kids. What did these kids do all day in school?!

I find that one of the best benefits of homeschooling is being able to sit on the soccer field or watch TKD without worrying how we will fit in dinner and homework. It's glorious.

I agree with the camps too. We've done Mad Science a few times and were super disappointed. The last time my ds hated, hated, hated it and didn't make a single friend because the other kids were so busy playing their hand held games. What?! We're trying a NASA camp next week set up by a local homeschooling group. We'll see if that's better. Fingers crossed.

[Hillary in KS]

I have yet to find anything that the government can run effectively and efficiently, and that includes the public school system. :glare:

[LexiR]

I'm so glad our public school experience is not like the ones described in this thread!!!

[lgm]

What I don't understand is why kids spend nearly 7 hours a day in school and have homework at night, yet have little to show for it.

 

I found out why the year my son was in a fully included class. The district is running NCGA - no child gets ahead. If part of the class doesn't understand, no one is moving on. Arts and crafts will be done instead of homework/classwork while the specialists remediate because it would not be fair to allow some children to do their work during remediation time b/c the ones in remediation don't have that opportunity.

 

The principal was no help...the philosophy is that educated parents really should be tutoring their children on the side & they'll get their reward in middle school with honors classes and high school with dual admission. I wrote the state senators; nothing heard back so I became an afterschooler. Fortunately NCLB came in....things improved as the district was forced to teach more of the grade level curriculum so they could get their quota of passing students. Still, the students who go to selective college are all privately tutored or take classes online.

[melmichigan]

Singapore is a full grade level above our school district and they are considered "the" school district in our area. :iagree:with just about everything said in the previous posts. Sad isn't it.

[katilac]

I wouldn't read too much into the remarks this boy made. All kids say silly, goofy, and downright stupid things sometimes . . . usually at the times when it will embarrass their parents the most! It doesn't mean they're ignorant or that their school isn't teaching them anything worthwhile.

 

Many schools are certainly lacking, and the system as a whole has many problems imo, but I wouldn't take a few offhand comments seriously.

[Jen in PA]

:iagree: In my mind, it's easier to just teach the girls at home for a few hours and be done the rest of the day than to send them to school, pick them up, supervise homework, follow up with teachers, deal with extracurriculars, etc. etc. etc. HSing is more efficient for me.

 

:iagree:

 

I think I would find sending my kids to ps to be stressful and time-consuming (on my part), and far from the best use of their time..

[angela in ohio]

I wouldn't read too much into the remarks this boy made. All kids say silly, goofy, and downright stupid things sometimes . . . usually at the times when it will embarrass their parents the most! It doesn't mean they're ignorant or that their school isn't teaching them anything worthwhile.

 

Many schools are certainly lacking, and the system as a whole has many problems imo, but I wouldn't take a few offhand comments seriously.

 

Exactly. I've heard homeschooled children (even my own) say silly things. My dd was 8 yo and asked if wood came from trees. :D

 

Some homeschoolers even have poor grammar.

 

I have found that most week-long summer camps are really child care. I only use half-day camps or those that run for a few days, because then you avoid this problem.

[Scuff]

My DS asked last week if the president "ruled" the whole country. It spawned a great conversation about the checks and balances in our government and how our founding fathers avoided a King at all costs, but I did :lol:. Poor kid has spent too much time learning world history and none on american yet!

[ElizabethB]

I guess I could be looking at TIMSS and do some digging into other (Canada, England, etc.) educational standards for a more accurate picture.

 

For reading and spelling standards, England and Canada are where we are now. If you want a true picture of reading grade level, take the NRRF test, its grade levels are based on those of the late 1800's when phonics was taught well. However, in the 1700's and early 1800's, phonics was taught even better and integrated with spelling with Spellers. When people completed their Speller (usually around the end of 1st grade from what I can tell from my research), they read from the KJV Bible or other older Bibles (12th grade level for KJV, probably similar for other versions), no readers were necessary.

 

Here's some grade level tests, the Wide Range Test is more correlated to current grade level standards, although a bit high on the 1st to 4th grade level. The NRRF is closer to a true reading grade level, and is a grade level or two below current norms.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/readinggradeleve.html

 

I also have links to some spelling tests:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Spelling/spellingtests.html

 

and here's a quote from that web page about them:

 

The Ayres test will give scores that are based on the averages of children in 1914 and 1915. Spelling scores have declined since then with the advent of sight word teaching, invented spelling, and a decline in phonetic spelling instruction with the explicit teaching of the phonetic rules that govern spelling. By 1953, spelling scores had declined 2 grade levels for the upper grades and 1 to 1 1/2 grade levels for the lower grades. (I have compared spelling word lists and scores for words given using the same procedures in 1922 and in 1953. You can see the lists and scores for 1922 online: "The Iowa Spelling Scales" by Ernest J. Ashbaugh, 1922. The 1953 test results are found in "The New Iowa Spelling Scale" by Harry A. Greene, 1954.

Edited July 18, 2009 by ElizabethB

[Jumping In Puddles]

I wouldn't read too much into the remarks this boy made. All kids say silly, goofy, and downright stupid things sometimes . . . usually at the times when it will embarrass their parents the most! It doesn't mean they're ignorant or that their school isn't teaching them anything worthwhile.

 

Many schools are certainly lacking, and the system as a whole has many problems imo, but I wouldn't take a few offhand comments seriously.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

If your dd has never spouted off wrong facts, she probably will one day and most likely it will be to someone who thinks homeschool is bad for children. :glare:

[angela in ohio]

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

If your dd has never spouted off wrong facts, she probably will one day and most likely it will be to someone who thinks homeschool is bad for children. :glare:

 

Yes, children tend to humble us, don't they? :D

[OHGrandma]

I hear you on the ps. My nephew is going into 5th grade this fall. My sister has a teaching degree (she teaches in a preschool, but she has a license to teach up to 6th grade). At the end of the school year, my sister had a feeling that her son was missing some important math information. He did ok in math last year, but her instinct said something wasn't right. So she took him to a tutoring service and had him evaluated. He was basically working at a 2nd grade level in math because he had big gaps in his understanding of basic math concepts. There were some more advanced things that he understood, but he was missing so much of the early stuff that he couldn't learn much of what he was supposed to (math being something that builds on itself). So now she is paying nearly $7000 to get him caught up in math and reading comprehension (which he was also very behind in, but no one knew that) this summer. She's really frustrated that she has to pay to have him learn what the ps was supposed to have taught him. She also frustrated that SHE was the one who noticed the problem -- why didn't the teacher know something was wrong?

 

The ps system is overworked and poorly structured. It's way too easy for kids to just get by, not really learning much, but continuing to be advanced grade levels. I think there are plenty of places to lay the blame -- with the legislatures who make rules regarding education, but know nothing about eduction; with administrators who are more interested in test scores than in real learning; with teachers who just want to get through the day; with parents who blindly trust the system. But I don't know what the solution is. Sometimes I feel like homeschooling is a cop out. Like I should send my kids to ps to help solve the problem. But I'm not willing to do that to them.

 

This post has bugged me since I read it. It's great the mom realized her kid was behind --- BUT --- why did it take her so long to realize her child going into the 5th grade was only able to do 2nd grade work? And why is she spending 7,000 to pay someone else to tutor him? For less than $70 she can buy Singapore workbooks & 1 hour/day she could have him up to speed this summer. And when I read she has a certificate to teach up to 6th grade, I shuddered!

[Jumping In Puddles]

This post has bugged me since I read it. It's great the mom realized her kid was behind --- BUT --- why did it take her so long to realize her child going into the 5th grade was only able to do 2nd grade work? And why is she spending 7,000 to pay someone else to tutor him? For less than $70 she can buy Singapore workbooks & 1 hour/day she could have him up to speed this summer. And when I read she has a certificate to teach up to 6th grade, I shuddered!

 

I know someone who did the exact same thing but paid $10,000. Those "learning centers" should be shut down (I'm assuming the tutoring service was one of those centers b/c of the high price) and parents need to do a little research or they will get suckered.

[lapsetmom]

I am a former public school teacher who is currently in a master's of education program. I also homeschool my children. I think this problem is actually quite complicated and a variety of factors. Here are my suppositions:

--the schools are focused so much on the lower level, special ed., or unmotivated kids because they have to make AYP (Adequate Yearly Progress) according to NCLB. This leaves the medium to high kids doing just average compared to homeshooled kids.

--Most parents who homeschool do so because they highly value their children and education. It is shown that parents who are these things have children who do well whether they are in school or not. Many many children in ps have parents who don't value education or their children in the same way as homeschooled parents. They are always at a distinct disadvantage and pull down the instruction level, ect.

--The schools are sooo focused on teaching reading right now due to NCLB that Social studies, science, etc. sometimes get left behind.

--Government red tape restricts innovation and creativity and places many restrictions in some areas as it tries so hard to get accountability in reading and math. Also, politicians are NOT educators for the most part, and big government beauracracy does have significant limits.

--Families are breaking down and children are not valued in society. The almighty dollar is too important. Many children are being raised with stress and lack of quality adult time, and we all know, learning does not happen with huge amounts of anxiety.

--Media overload. Fast food society. We expect everything to be easy and unless children are taught self-discipline, learning will not happen, and teachers' jobs are more difficult and the whole class gets held back.

--We also live in a society where information is doubling rapidly. Knowing what to teach, is getting more difficult. The state standards can be overwhelming as it seems there is not enough time to teach it all. This leads to teachers and schools sometimes choosing things that are not as important over things that might have been better. We are going through a societal shift and schools are having trouble shifting to the needs of a technological information based society. In fact, in some areas we may be ahead of those of the past just because society's needs and values today are different. Just think about how much some students know about computers that people of the past couldn't have imagined possible.

 

As you can see, this is quite complicated. I think teachers as a whole are trying, and even many public schools are working hard and doing well. However, there are many factors that make learning difficult.

[EKS]

This post has bugged me since I read it. It's great the mom realized her kid was behind --- BUT --- why did it take her so long to realize her child going into the 5th grade was only able to do 2nd grade work? And why is she spending 7,000 to pay someone else to tutor him? For less than $70 she can buy Singapore workbooks & 1 hour/day she could have him up to speed this summer. And when I read she has a certificate to teach up to 6th grade, I shuddered!

 

:iagree:

[Capt_Uhura]

lapsetmom - thank you so much for your thoughts! :iagree:

[lapsetmom]

Oh, and one more thought! Homeschooled children have the unique advantage of one-on-one instruction. That is something public schools or private schools for that matter can't beat! It is so obvious that I forgot to include it before! ;)

[Saille]

I know someone who did the exact same thing but paid $10,000. Those "learning centers" should be shut down (I'm assuming the tutoring service was one of those centers b/c of the high price) and parents need to do a little research or they will get suckered.

 

I work at one of those "learning centers". I believe strongly in what we do, which is to fill in those specific gaps for kids whose parents either aren't willing to do it themselves, or don't feel capable. As it happens, that category includes public school districts. NCLB kids get outsourced to us, and their tutoring is funded with government money.

 

If the parent is determined to send a child to ps, and expects him/her to jump through the particular hoops ps levies, then these services are a good thing. Yes, they're expensive: you aren't going to get salaried, certified teachers with their own lesson planning to do to come in and tutor on evenings and weekends for minimum wage. Nobody's getting rich, I can tell you that. I agree that most homeschooling parents could fund two years of curriculum with some of the totals in previous posts, but it is what it is. We aren't dealing with parents who feel empowered to do what we do. Just as some people don't question doctors because they're convinced they don't know enough to do so, others have a big brick wall up when it comes to schools/learning. They believe teaching is a highly specialized skill. They would never believe they could do it themselves.

[Ohdanigirl]

I wouldn't read too much into the remarks this boy made. All kids say silly, goofy, and downright stupid things sometimes . . . usually at the times when it will embarrass their parents the most! It doesn't mean they're ignorant or that their school isn't teaching them anything worthwhile.

 

Many schools are certainly lacking, and the system as a whole has many problems imo, but I wouldn't take a few offhand comments seriously.

 

I still remember when my oldest ds was 7 and his cousin, who is older and a grade ahead, asked where the sun went when it set. Ds explained it to him and he was shocked that the sun was lighting other parts of the world and not in fact hiding underwater. In the very next sentence he asked dh how boats kept from falling off the edge of our flat earth.:001_huh: Again, ds explained it to him, but I really thought he was joking. Turns out, he had never seen a globe, or been informed that the world was not flat. I imagine he thought ds was lying when he mentioned that the sun did not revolve around the earth... he just couldn't believe it.

[gardening momma]

Later this same child said that fruit were really vegetables because they had seeds, again, what?

It seems that it would be very easy for a child to get this mixed up. He may have learned that vegetables with seeds are fruit, but got it turned around.

[LUV2EDU]

:iagree: In my mind, it's easier to just teach the girls at home for a few hours and be done the rest of the day than to send them to school, pick them up, supervise homework, follow up with teachers, deal with extracurriculars, etc. etc. etc. HSing is more efficient for me.

 

:iagree:

[LUV2EDU]

It seems that it would be very easy for a child to get this mixed up. He may have learned that vegetables with seeds are fruit, but got it turned around.

:iagree:

[msjones]

It's posts like these that "dumbfound" me.

 

It's just like a homeschool naysayer making broad generalizations about homeschoolers based on one encounter with one homeschooler.

 

I think we all know that there are poorly educated public-schoolers. There are also well-educated public-schoolers. There are poorly educated homeschoolers, and well-educated homeschoolers.

 

It may be interesting for the OP to visit my husband's classroom while he is teaching AP Calculus or Statistics. She may develop a different opinion about just how much ps is lacking.

 

I agree that if the OP's kids haven't yet made an ignorant statement, they have years of opportunity ahead of them.

[SunshineMom]

As the original poster (OP), first of all my oldest child did attend AP classes through out high school so I personally have seen how ps can get it right. There are some great ps teachers out there. For instance, my uncle is a retired ps teacher (AP History) however he was the first to tell me that the institution of public school is doing an injustice to education! My friend's (ps teacher) child's understanding of living vs nonliving things and veg/fruit seed mix up was strange (because he was so adamant) but similar to how some children think. Yes, of course my children make funny, nonsense or incorrect statements and I am sure they will in the future, no worries there. During this time (OPing), I was reading "Conspiracy of Ignorance," dealing w/ a science camp (ps kids) that was undereducating my youngest and a child who wanted to tell me that a rock was alive meanwhile his mother is spouting that ps is seriously flawed. Sorry if some were offended by my post, I just needed to vent a little. In polls, there is a consensus among parents that ps is failing however when asked about their own child's school, they say their school is not. Why homeschool if our children could get a better education with public school? John Gatto's "Dumbing Us Down" and "Underground History of American Education" are great reads about our ps institution.

[Snickerdoodle]

In polls, there is a consensus among parents that ps is failing however when asked about their own child's school, they say their school is not.

 

I was just talking about this very thing with someone this week. It's a very strange phenomenon, eh?

[skaterbabs]

Our local elementary school is very good, especially if your child needs extra help in one academic area or another. Had Dot not been quite so accelerated we would have sent her without a second thought. Our middle school on the other hand is another topic altogether and there is a reason we pulled the boys when it was time for them to go there.

[angela in ohio]

Why homeschool if our children could get a better education with public school? John Gatto's "Dumbing Us Down" and "Underground History of American Education" are great reads about our ps institution.

 

Most of us know ewxactly what the problems are with public schools. You find as you homeschool longer, though, that the quick answer is not public school vs. homeschool. There are really uneduated homeschooled kiddos out there (not talking special needs, I'm talking about educational neglect and ignorance.) It really is so much more about the parent than the method of education.

 

I think the point posters were trying to make is that you cannot make a quick assessment of how public schools are doing from a few comments by one child (if so, my second dd would have made homeschooling illegal years ago, the child just doesn't think sometimes, and it usually happens in public.) That is a different point than whether they are failing or not.

[SunshineMom]

My conclusions come from personal experiences and points of view from many authors who also share my opinion. I think this horse is dead!

[melhouse]

I work at one of those "learning centers". I believe strongly in what we do, which is to fill in those specific gaps for kids whose parents either aren't willing to do it themselves, or don't feel capable. As it happens, that category includes public school districts. NCLB kids get outsourced to us, and their tutoring is funded with government money.

 

If the parent is determined to send a child to ps, and expects him/her to jump through the particular hoops ps levies, then these services are a good thing. Yes, they're expensive: you aren't going to get salaried, certified teachers with their own lesson planning to do to come in and tutor on evenings and weekends for minimum wage. Nobody's getting rich, I can tell you that. I agree that most homeschooling parents could fund two years of curriculum with some of the totals in previous posts, but it is what it is. We aren't dealing with parents who feel empowered to do what we do. Just as some people don't question doctors because they're convinced they don't know enough to do so, others have a big brick wall up when it comes to schools/learning. They believe teaching is a highly specialized skill. They would never believe they could do it themselves.

 

Thanks for this. I also have worked at one of those "learning centers" off and on for twenty years. I agree with your comments.