Unsupervised Elementary Kids???

[joannqn]

First, let me explain where we live in relationship to this neighbor I want to talk about. We live in the center house on one block. Go north past two houses, cross the street, turn left and go past the corner house to the second house. This is Hannah's house.

 

So, my kids asked if they could go see if Hannah could play. I gave permission and off they went. After a while, I walked over there with my 2 year old just to check on things and found...

 

Hannah (age 8) and my two kids (ages 9 and 7) completely and totally alone in the backyard with not a single adult home. Hannah's parents took off and left another adult who lives across the street in charge. This other adult (a grandmother who recently gained custody of her 5 year old) was inside her house. The kids were at Hannah's house, in their back yard, surrounded by a 6 foot tall wood fence, with an easy to open gate opening to the alley on the side of the house. I walked around the house, entered through the gate, and no one knew.

 

Once I found out that there were no adults home, I told my kids it was time to leave. We stopped at the corner house for a few minutes while I talked to that mom (who had no idea that the kids were alone in her neighbor's back yard). Finally, the grandmother in charge came out and walked across the street. When she reached us, I asked her if she knew that she was in charge of the three kids. She did and said, "They were safe in the backyard."

 

 

Am I the only one who is so NOT ok with this arrangement?

[Jean in Newcastle]

No, you're not the only one. My dc (11 and 7) can play outside in our yard but we are in a quiet subdivision and I have the window open and am supervising. I don't supervise as closely now as ds11 is old enough to watch his little sister in my opinion. But in the situation you described, no way would I be ok with it.

[SquirrellyMama]

I wouldn't be ok with that either. I let my kids ride their bikes to their friends houses without me (both are about 1 - 3 blocks away) and the parents call to make sure everyone got to where they are going. If I have to go somewhere then the kids have to go to the other kid's house or they have to go home.

[The Girls' Mom]

No way at all! My dd is 12, and although she is left at home alone with her younger sisters, there is NO WAY they are allowed outside while I'm not around! At 8? That's too young!

[CookieMonster]

Am I the only one who is so NOT ok with this arrangement?

 

Nope. I would not be comfortable with this arrangement.

 

This is not the 50s. June Cleaver doesn't live here.

 

Also, even if you're comfortable as a mom with the arrangement (as Hannah's mom was) it's rude to assume another parent is. And I would never just pass off someone else's children, who were sent to my supervision, into another person's hands without consulting them/notifying them. Even if it was family, I would say something to at least let my sister know I left her kids with someone besides myself.

[Marylou]

You are right. Very inappropriate. I hope you talk with Hannah's parents about it. Not to rat on the grandma, just to voice your concerns. Maybe had her a copy of Protecting the Gift.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I agree it was inappropriate on a few levels.

 

I agree with talking to Hannah's parents. They should let YOU know if they are leaving. Of course, I wouldn't be sending my kids back down there. ANd I would be having a talk with my children also!

[bkpan]

First, let me explain where we live in relationship to this neighbor I want to talk about. We live in the center house on one block. Go north past two houses, cross the street, turn left and go past the corner house to the second house. This is Hannah's house.

 

So, my kids asked if they could go see if Hannah could play. I gave permission and off they went. After a while, I walked over there with my 2 year old just to check on things and found...

 

Hannah (age 8) and my two kids (ages 9 and 7) completely and totally alone in the backyard with not a single adult home. Hannah's parents took off and left another adult who lives across the street in charge. This other adult (a grandmother who recently gained custody of her 5 year old) was inside her house. The kids were at Hannah's house, in their back yard, surrounded by a 6 foot tall wood fence, with an easy to open gate opening to the alley on the side of the house. I walked around the house, entered through the gate, and no one knew.

 

Once I found out that there were no adults home, I told my kids it was time to leave. We stopped at the corner house for a few minutes while I talked to that mom (who had no idea that the kids were alone in her neighbor's back yard). Finally, the grandmother in charge came out and walked across the street. When she reached us, I asked her if she knew that she was in charge of the three kids. She did and said, "They were safe in the backyard."

 

 

Am I the only one who is so NOT ok with this arrangement?

 

Maybe I am missing something?

 

I am just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but, why is what those parents did any different from how you sent your dc to the neighbors (and I am not implying that you did anything wrong, at all!)? I mean, you gave your dc permission to go and play in the neighborhood out of your sight, assuming that they would be fine. The girls parents also let their dd out of their sight (in their own backyard), trusting another adult to check on her. IOW, if I were one of those parents, I would not assume that I was responsible for your dc, just because they were in the neighborhood and going to play with my dd.

 

I, personally, wouldnt let my 8yo home without me unless an adult were directly supervising her (in sight), but I am having a hard time distinguishing the neighbor parents actions from your actions. (Again, I am not saying that ANY parent was wrong - I think that all the decisions could be comfortable depending on all the circumstances in your neighborhood).

 

BUT, I would definitely take the opportunity to direct my dc as to what to do in a similar situation - and perhaps invite the neighbor children to my home from that point on - keeping my dc in my sights. HTH

 

Kim

[Jumping In Puddles]

IRC from the "free range" thread, you live in a high crime area? I think that is what would concern me most in your situation along with the fact that the other mother should have asked you first.

 

In my neighborhood, I would be ok with it BUT ONLY IF I KNEW! Then, I could check on them periodically and if I heard a car coming (maybe 2-3 cars a day come up my street) I would be out the door in a flash.

[joannqn]

When I let me kids walk 1/2 a block together to see if Hannah could play, they were under the orders to come right back if she couldn't. I also assumed that if she could play, they were at her house with adults present. Maybe not outside in the backyard with her, but at least present in the house where they could watch from the window or hear if there was a commotion.

 

If I were the parent with kids knocking on my door, I would supervise the play. If I needed to leave, I would make sure the other kids got home ok, or at the very least, sent them home even if I had a babysitter.

 

Because this is the first time this has come up, because I know that this family is willing to leave young kids unsupervised, my kids now have a new rule added to their list of rules. If you are playing at someone's house and there are no parents, or the parents leave, it is time to come home.

 

I'm trying, really hard, to give my kids some freedom outside (if they are together) because I feel bad about how little they get to be outside. I've been letting my older two play in the front yard, ride their bikes around the block, and walk 1/2 block to play with other kids. They are only alone for a couple of minutes in each of those scenarios. The first one, I can watch them from the window. The second one, I see them after each lap. The last one puts them either back home in a couple of minutes or with another adult after a minute. But being alone for an unknown amount of time is more than I can handle.

[joannqn]

Maybe I am missing something?

 

I, personally, wouldnt let my 8yo home without me unless an adult were directly supervising her (in sight), but I am having a hard time distinguishing the neighbor parents actions from your actions.

 

The difference is that my children were only unsupervised for the minute or two it took to walk there and ask if she could play, and come home if she couldn't.

 

They left the kids alone for an unknown length of time...certainly more than a few minutes as I was in their backyard for about 10 before I realized nobody was home.

 

Maybe it's just me, but if a neighborhood child knocked on my door and asked to play, I would feel that I was assuming responsibility for that child if I said yes and allowed them to stay on my property. If I didn't want the responsibility for that child, I would tell them no and send them on their way.

[melissel]

Joanne, is there a chance that they weren't home when your kids got there?

 

Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable with it, and I wouldn't be sending my kids over there to play anymore, but I probably wouldn't make a big deal about it with the parents. This seems like one of those fundamental differences in parenting styles that you're not going to change (and they'll probably just think you're overprotective anyway). I'd just adjust my own expectations accordingly, and make sure my kids know that if that kind of thing is to happen again (i.e., parents leaving), they are to come straight back to our house, and bring their friend(s) if they want to come. ITA that I'd feel responsible for kids playing at my house, but I also know that lots of people don't operate that way. (I can't imagine how one wouldn't, but people amaze me every day, so my expectations are low!)

[KidsHappen]

I personally wouldn't have been comfortable with that and our family rules do specifically address this issue. My kids are not allowed to play at someone else's house if parents are not home and kids are not allowed to play at my house if parents are not home. However, I am also not comfortable with letting my children walk to a location that I can not see from my front door unless they call me and inform me, I have made it ____'s house, her parents are home and we are playing. I also always have _______'s address and phone number. My children do play in an open meadow about 1/2 a block from my house. Once again they must call me and inform me that they are there and who else they are playing with and they are never allowed to be the only children there. We live in a very safe neighborhood where there is at least one parent home in every household and most of the kids play in our cul-de-sac. All parents leave our front doors open so that we can look out and see the children and we all have each other's phone numbers and keep track of where the children are. Oh, and my children are older than yours. We have always lived on a cul-de-sac and they have only been allowed to play in the cul-de-sac or at a neighbor's that I could see out my front door until very recently. I would never have allowed them to walk farther than I can see at that age unless they were with their teen sisters. It is only in the last three months that I have allowed them to go as far as the meadow.

 

The reason for this is that if I sent them to so and so's house and they were napped on the way there I would have no way of knowing they were missing if I assumed that they had made it and everything was fine just because they didn't come home immediately. I have to hear from them in a very short window of time so that I know they have made it to their destination safetly. And then I have them call me on the way home so I know exactly when to expect them home. I sitll have them same rules for my teens that are almost grown. I need to know when they get off work, exactly where they plan on going and how long they will be gone. And they are still required to call when they get there and when they head home. The rules allow them some freedom but also allow me to relax somewhat because I have only a short period of time in which I have to worry.

Edited June 4, 2009 by KidsHappen

[joannqn]

Joanne, is there a chance that they weren't home when your kids got there?

 

Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable with it, and I wouldn't be sending my kids over there to play anymore, but I probably wouldn't make a big deal about it with the parents. This seems like one of those fundamental differences in parenting styles that you're not going to change (and they'll probably just think you're overprotective anyway). I'd just adjust my own expectations accordingly, and make sure my kids know that if that kind of thing is to happen again (i.e., parents leaving), they are to come straight back to our house, and bring their friend(s) if they want to come. ITA that I'd feel responsible for kids playing at my house, but I also know that lots of people don't operate that way. (I can't imagine how one wouldn't, but people amaze me every day, so my expectations are low!)

 

They were home when my kids arrived.

 

It never occurred to me that someone would leave an 8 year old home alone. Now that I know, my kids have a new rule in place so it won't happen again. I know I can trust my kids to follow the rules.

 

I'm not even going to bring it up with the other parents. I'm just going to trust my kids to follow the rules. This kid is not my idea of a great choice of friend, and it isn't the kind of thing you can bring up with a parent. I'm only allowing it because my kids are desperate for kids to play with on a regular basis and there are only 3 kids close enough to play with. The 3 kids are a pack, so basically everyone plays together, roving from yard to yard. If I took away this one girl, I'd be taking away all of the neighborhood kids. After 9 years of living here, this is the first time my kids have had someone to play with.

 

We're in a place where playing with a less-than-ideal kid is better than no one.

[melissel]

We're in a place where playing with a less-than-ideal kid is better than no one.

 

:grouphug: I hear you!

[Penelope]

I would be upset but not say anything, just be very strict about when and how my son could play with this other child.

 

I am surprised anyone would leave their 8 yo at home alone, and if they did, that said child would be allowed outside, AND on top of that, have friends over. There are a couple of families where my kids have friends that leave the kids for short periods of time, but the oldest is more like 10-11 and they are not allowed to have anyone else in until a parent is there. To me even this is a little young, but I suppose it would depend on the circumstances and the kids. In the days of cell phones I guess this is a little more feasible.

 

I, too, feel responsible to check on kids that are in and around my yard. But not all parents are like this.

 

ETA: I believe in some states it is illegal to leave a child that youn at home alone. I am not sure a neighbor across the street counts.

[joannqn]

I would be upset but not say anything, just be very strict about when and how my son could play with this other child.

 

I am surprised anyone would leave their 8 yo at home alone, and if they did, that said child would be allowed outside, AND on top of that, have friends over. There are a couple of families where my kids have friends that leave the kids for short periods of time, but the oldest is more like 10-11 and they are not allowed to have anyone else in until a parent is there. To me even this is a little young, but I suppose it would depend on the circumstances and the kids. In the days of cell phones I guess this is a little more feasible.

 

I, too, feel responsible to check on kids that are in and around my yard. But not all parents are like this.

 

ETA: I believe in some states it is illegal to leave a child that young at home alone. I am not sure a neighbor across the street counts.

 

This child doesn't have a cell phone. Had there been a problem, she would have had to let herself out of the yard, walk across the street, and get help from the adult in charge. Of course, that's assuming she was able to do that.

 

One of the entrances to the back yard is in the alley to the side of the house. It's a gate with a hole drilled in the wood and a string pulled through the hole to allow the latch to be opened from the outside. (That's how I got in.) It's not in view from the neighbor-in-charge's house so she had no way of knowing/seeing if someone entered the backyard with the kids.

 

It's just scary to me. But then, I'm the protective parent of the group who's been trying to let up a tiny bit. Before this summer, they weren't allowed outside unless I was both able and willing to sit outside with them. That means they spent most or all of the day, every day, inside with no one but themselves to play with. Giving them the freedom to be out of my sight for a couple of minutes has enabled them to play outside or with other kids more.

 

I'm going to check to see the legal age of leaving kids home alone is...I've always wondered.

[katilac]

I think you are on the right path by clarifying rules with your own kids to make sure it doesn't happen again. We can't expect every family in the neighborhood to share our ideas on supervision.

 

I have to say that I don't consider myself responsible for supervising every random neighbor kid who wanders into my yard to play; it would be an impossible task! And a thankless one. When they knock on the door, I generally just send them round to the back gate if my kids want to play outside.

 

I don't keep track of when they arrive or leave, and any 'watching' I do is just to make sure they aren't getting too rowdy and wreaking havoc on my yard (or my kids, ;)).

 

The only way a mom should expect me to be supervising her kids is if we had a pre-arranged, 'official' playdate, where it was understood that they would be at my house for a set period of time, and I would be the adult in charge. But kids knocking on my door? Nope, not being responsible for them!

[joannqn]

But kids knocking on my door? Nope, not being responsible for them!

 

My thoughts are that I am responsible for those on my property with my consent. I know homeowner's insurance would agree. If one of those kids were to get hurt on your property, you (or your insurance) is responsible for the bill...that's why liability insurance is required. Heck, you (or your insurance) might be responsible even without your consent.

 

I wonder what legal expectations would be?

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

I'm going to check to see the legal age of leaving kids home alone is...I've always wondered.

 

I checked on this in Washington. It is really vague. The law says that as long as a child wasn't in danger, then it is ok to leave them alone. Of course, if something happens, then the child is deemed to have been in danger, so it all of a sudden became illegal.:glare: I was told when I asked why this was written this way, that they worded it this way to give parents discretion because different kids mature at different ages.

[joannqn]

I checked on this in Washington. It is really vague. The law says that as long as a child wasn't in danger, then it is ok to leave them alone. Of course, if something happens, then the child is deemed to have been in danger, so it all of a sudden became illegal.:glare: I was told when I asked why this was written this way, that they worded it this way to give parents discretion because different kids mature at different ages.

 

 

Yes, that's what I found as well. Leaving kids home alone isn't illegal but it is at the discretion of the person investigating (ie. police, cps) on whether it was appropriate and warrants charges of neglect.

[mama2cntrykids]

I agree that it was a bad situation. I've heard of a lot of ppl in our area doing the same thing. Not a good thing at all.

[fivetails]

Yes, that's what I found as well. Leaving kids home alone isn't illegal but it is at the discretion of the person investigating (ie. police, cps) on whether it was appropriate and warrants charges of neglect.

 

Even if there *was* an age specified, it likely wouldn't apply in the situation that you described, since the 8 year old wasn't actually "left home alone" - because the neighbour lady was babysitting her. Yeah, she wasn't right there beside her, but she was "in charge" and knew where the child was, right? Certainly not the best scenario, particularly given how I think you described your neighbourhood before, but in the eyes of the law the child wouldn't have been "left home alone" ...she'd been given to the charge of a babysitter who gave her permission to play in that yard, kwim? Prolly not viewed much differently than a parent (or babysitter) who gave a child permission to go play down the road at the school park, in a field, in the wooded lot, or anywhere that the parent/sitter wasn't physically present.

 

(Doesn't change it not being a very good idea - just that she did have someone arranged to 'babysit', so the law of an age, if it did exist, likely couldn't be used...)

[Murphy101]

I have nothing against the ages playing in the yard alone.

I have nothing against a 9 or 8 year old at home alone.

 

I have big HUGE issues with someone leaving my kids with someone without telling me.

I have big HUGE issues with someone leaving my kids alone with their kid without telling me.

 

DH says he'd feel the same if they were teens.

Our teens home alone? sure, no problem.

Our teens and any others that want to come and go without any adult home? no. a rather emphatic no.

[msjones]

I would have been okay with it. I don't feel that my kids (ages 8 and almost 10) need to be within earshot or in my sight at all times. I would be fine with my kids playing in a fenced yard if there was a trusted, in-charge adult nearby. It sounds like your neighbor's neighbor was babysitting and was willing to have other kids in the mix.

 

This is the typical after-school play arrangement in our neighborhood. That being said, we have a beautiful, safe, centrally located park in our neighborhood. My boys know they can go to other moms for help, and I assume that at times I'll be the 'other mom' providing help for my friends' kids.

 

The way to avoid the problem in the future would probably be to check in with the family prior to sending your kiddos over to play.

 

It sounds like you're new to the 'let-the-kids-roam-a-bit' lifestyle. I can see why you weren't comfortable, but if you want to ensure a high level of close supervision, you'll need to be the one to provide it.

[Gretchen in NJ]

I have nothing against the ages playing in the yard alone.

I have nothing against a 9 or 8 year old at home alone.

 

I have big HUGE issues with someone leaving my kids with someone without telling me.

I have big HUGE issues with someone leaving my kids alone with their kid without telling me.

 

DH says he'd feel the same if they were teens.

Our teens home alone? sure, no problem.

Our teens and any others that want to come and go without any adult home? no. a rather emphatic no.

 

I happen to agree with Martha here. One thing to consider also with the grandmother is that this may be a generational choice. I can remember when I was 5, 6, and 7 years old riding my bike all over my neighborhood. I never let my girls do that, but my mom let me roam all over the place. Children did that back then.

[Renee in NC]

I have nothing against the ages playing in the yard alone.

I have nothing against a 9 or 8 year old at home alone.

 

I have big HUGE issues with someone leaving my kids with someone without telling me.

I have big HUGE issues with someone leaving my kids alone with their kid without telling me.

 

DH says he'd feel the same if they were teens.

Our teens home alone? sure, no problem.

Our teens and any others that want to come and go without any adult home? no. a rather emphatic no.

 

:iagree:

 

When I was a child, I stayed home alone in the 2nd grade, with a neighbor home next door, for several hours every afternoon. My current 8yo could not stay home alone and I wouldn't put him in that position (he has very little impulse control.) It really depends on the child.

 

A situation came up for which you have no rule - what to do when you are playing at a friend's house and the parents leave. Now you have a rule. The situation won't happen again because your child now knows what to do if it happens.

[2cents]

I wouldn't be ok with that situation at all. I can see why you're upset. However, you don't have much control over what with acceptable and responsible to other people. They probably leave the child alone and have a casual relationship with the neighbor to 'keep an eye out' and don't think anything can happen. IMO 8 is too young and I wouldn't feel right about making the neighbor responsible like that (or assuming she would be responsible). I also think they should NEVER have left without giving you a heads up that they wouldn't be at the house. That would have given you the option to watch all the kids or ask your child to return home.

 

Personally, I wouldn't address it with the other parents but would make a mental note to have the playdates at my home if possible, and explain to your child that if there is no adult in physical presence then she is to return home immediately...and bring all the parentless friends along too. :)

[ConnieB]

Yep, I'd be very concerned about it. But....I also see two places that hindsight improvement could have made a better situation.....

 

I know I'm overly protective, but I have never allowed my children (and I'll have a teenager by month's end) to go to someone's house alone. Yep, even 2 houses down and around the corner.

 

I have often had conversations with my kids about calling me immediately if something is happening at someone else's house that makes them uncomfortable or isn't "allowed" here at home. So I would hope that means that my kids would have called to let me know that the adult in charge wasn't there (or since there was no one home and no way to call, would have come home to tell me).

 

Of course, if your kids have been there before you had no reason to believe it would be bad now, so I wouldn't beat myself up over it. But....I also would not allow it to happen again.

 

I do think I'd mention to Hannah's mom how surprised you were to show up and find them all unsupervised. I'm guessing Mom didn't realize that her babysitter was so hands-off!

 

I'd also make sure my kids understood that sitter's house was off limits, at least until I got to know her better to see if this was just an isolated incident, or if her rules are perhaps too lax for my comfort.

 

I have no problem with how others make rules for their kids.....I have worked hard to let it go and remember that I'm not their parent....but my kids know my rules and know that breaking them even outside my view will mean punishment at our house. But they also know the WHYs for each rule, even the youngest who can't quite understand the intracacies of my why's....but knows it's because I love them and my JOB is keeping them as safe as possible. And I take my job just as seriously as Daddy takes his....maybe even more so.

 

If this is the first time this situation has come up, then you can't really get mad at the kids (including Hannah) as they may not have understood the rules for the situation. After all sounds like they often play in Hannah's backyard.....the adult thing is not something they'd have keyed into.