When and why did you try neuropsychologist testing?

[JulieA97]

NM

Edited December 6, 2016 by JulieA97

[Storygirl]

I've had three of my four children evaluated by a NP. Two of those were partially covered by insurance, but one we had to pay out of pocket. NP testing can run around $2000 and is not always covered by insurance, so you may want to seek out other evaluations first.

 

An Occupational Therapist can evaluate the handwriting issue. Does he have trouble with other fine or gross motor tasks? Some insurance plans will cover OT, so you will need to check with yours. You may or may not need a referral from the pediatrician, depending on your plan.

 

The pediatrician is the place to start with the discussion about possible ADHD. Make an appointment just to talk about that, and do not just tack the discussion on to the annual well visit. If the pediatrician says they don't "see" the behaviors, be a squeaky wheel. I had trouble getting our doctor to agree to test for ADHD because my son would sit quietly in the doctor's office, but we eventually got help and found DS is pretty severe. So don't let the doctor try to smooth things over.

 

Some pediatricians will do the testing themselves, and some will refer you to a psychologist (can diagnose and do counseling and training in behavior and emotional management) or psychiatrist (can prescribe meds).

 

So start with your pediatrician. NP evaluations can be really helpful, but there are other things you can do first.

 

I know how you feel. It's good that you are looking into this right away and not letting time go by. It's possible that your son does not have a diagnosable condition but is just not developmentally ready yet for the pen and paper demands of school, but you will not know for sure unless you get an expert opinion.

 

:grouphug:

[TravelingChris]

As a mother of three ADHD child and I am ADHD myself, it doesn't sound like adhd.  It sounds like a terrible school.  I believe many 5 year olds wouldn't want to write so much.  If he can do the work orally, obviously he knows and understands the work. 

 

We did neuropsych testing for two of our kids but they were both in high school back then and it was so they could get accommodations in college.  I already knew what their problems were and had adjusted my teaching to their needs. While your son may have dysgraphia, I don't even think that can be diagnosed at five since most kids aren't barely writing by then. 

 

You have to understand that while I am for learning when a child is young, I am very much against the trend to force lots of writing from an early age.  I never did and none of my kids had any problems writing in college.  But they were all doing very minimal writing at 5 and still not doing all that much writing at 10.  They knew how to write and certainly did write out math problems and did grammar exercises and did short answers. But compared to the schools, it was little writing.  It didn't hold them back at all.  They all got good scholarships to college and had no problems with writing college essays and papers.

[Chris in VA]

We did neuro-psych testing when ds was 6 and in K. It was back in the early 90s. 

 

In your case, it just sounds like the school is developmentally inappropriate. There, of course, could be something going on with your child, but the school could def be contributing. 

[PeterPan]

Both of my kids have been eval'd by neuropsychs.  If there are no SLDs and only ADHD, a neuropsych is overkill.  It sounds like there's a misfit between him and the school, and it's illogical that you're saying you'll keep him in the rest of the year.  I'd yank him now, personally.  

 

Even if he has SLD writing, which he could, they're not going to do anything to drop writing amounts.  My ds has an IEP with all three SLDs, ADHD, etc., and at this age they'll be utterly, utterly unsympathetic.  if you want to decrease the writing, scribe, and retain his love of learning, you'll have to pull him out.

 

And, fwiw, extreme non-compliance would indicate more than just ADHD.  Just pointing it out.  Like you haven't told us very much, but I wouldn't say ADHD is the most obvious explanation.  What you do want are people who've had enough time with him that they can fill out behavior forms.  If you're going to pursue the np eval, now would be a good time, given that he has these people he's working with who can fill them out.  Another way would be to bring in some workers into your home or do some co-op classes or something where he has demands made, so those people can fill out the behavior forms.  

 

Adding: Newly 6 is about perfect for the $$ testing, because you're able to do more of the tests than you can at 5.  There will be a wait for a good np anyway, so get on the list and schedule it for right as he turns 6.  Meanwhile, bring him home and work with him yourself.  You can do WAY better yourself.  TCR sells STEAM project books for this age.  That school is utterly unnecessary.  Might be necessary for your life (work schedule, realities, whatever), but for challenging him it's utterly unnecessary.

Edited December 2, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[NorthwestMom]

 

 

In your case, it just sounds like the school is developmentally inappropriate. There, of course, could be something going on with your child, but the school could def be contributing. 

 

The schools have moved to a lot of writing before kids' muscles in their hands and fingers have developed enough to support the amount of work they are asking for. Then the kids' hands hurt when they are writing, so they don't want to do it. It's frustrating!  

 

I can't speak to the neuropsych question, but I would question goodness-of-fit at this school or at least this classroom. Also, he might be gifted. My son was just like this is kindergarten. This year he is a National Merit Commended Scholar and writes and draws all of the time. 

 

If it is just a writing issue, you could see an OT and then hope he grows out of it. I would not make him do more writing at home unless an OT recommends it, since overusing those muscles will not help him. The benefit of seeing an OT and doing the proper amount of writing (with informed support from an expert) is that the more he writes, the more comfortable he will become with writing, and the stronger those muscles become as they develop.

 

Also, add in rewards at home for completing all the work at school/following directions and see if this increases his motivation to do it.  If he is not going to follow the directions for schoolwork in public school, he is going to have a hard time. They are not flexible like a homeschool mom.  :001_cool:

Edited December 2, 2016 by NorthwestMom

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would not do expensive testing for a problem caused by developmentally inappropriate teaching.

 

 

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[OneStepAtATime]

Developmentally inappropriate expectations.  This issue is rampant in local schools, even the 4k programs.  If you can pull him out to homeschool or find a better fit in a brick and mortar I would do it ASAP instead of ending up with him loathing learning.

 

He may well have a problem with writing but he is so young and the expectations so inappropriate for his developmental level that I would not stress over that yet.  I would buy him time.  Get him out.  Maybe look into an occupational therapy evaluation after you have gotten him into a more appropriate environment if he is still struggling.  

 

FWIW, writing is a very complex process using lots of different systems.  It takes TIME to get all of those systems functioning smoothly together.  Many schools have forgotten this.  And kids are suffering needlessly because of their unrealistic, frequently harmful expectations.  Yes, sometimes there is also an underlying writing issue that needs specific, targeted additional assistance. Unless he is severely struggling with even forming simple lines/basic letters, your child is so young I would not immediately think he has any real issues at all.  

[Spryte]

I don't think the situation you're describing would send me straight to neuro psych testing at that age. Maybe a conversation with the pedi, but at this point I think it's a problem with the school. Expectations of Kers sound a bit high there, especially boys. Leonard Sax's book, Boys Adrift, has a good section on boys in K, IIRC. You might check that out.

 

We did neuro psych testing at 7. Our reasons were radically different from yours. We were simultaneously getting MRIs and neuro work ups from one of the best kids hospitals in the country. We were leaving no stone unturned. We started with a convo with the pedi, and she helped us make decisions about what to do and who to see.

 

The neuro psych testing was paid in full by our ins, but it was around $1800, and time consuming. It wasn't terribly helpful with resolving what was going on with our son, but we did get semi-useful results re:homeschooling. We expected an ADHD dx, and got a "profoundly gifted." The PG was *not* the reason for the symptoms that made us seek testing, though. That was not the reason for his outbursts and issues.

 

ETA: I'm just going to come out and say it for anyone reading, who might be helped. Even though it probably doesn't apply to the OP. My son's issues that prompted this nightmare we lived - they were caused by a drug that I think now has a black box warning for kids, at least, there was a push for a warning: Singulair. Once he got off of that - night and day. He'd been on it for 4 years. So always look at all possibilities.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Spryte

[wapiti]

It sounds like the school is a big disappointment and, at the very least, not a great fit at the moment.  I might have concerns about the writing, depending on appropriateness of the writing demands, but without more I don't know that I'd necessarily be ready for full-blown neuropsych testing yet - hard to say.

 

If you are going to test, I'd start with the district website - get in touch with the learning services/special needs department about testing.  There may be a form for the written request.  While I prefer private testing for accuracy and better analysis, at least the school testing would be free.

 

Also, note that there is a Learning Challenges forum here at WTM where neuropsych evals are discussed often.

 

I'd also be considering whether this school is likely to be a fit in another year or two.  In other words, while K is not going well, if it is worth staying in for the future, then perhaps it's worth getting some testing in order for his needs to be accommodated.  But again, hard for me to guess.

[JulieA97]

NM

Edited December 6, 2016 by JulieA97

[PeterPan]

I would get his eyes checked by a developmental optometrist.  He may need glasses or may have some convergence issues.  Any time a child is rejecting normal, age-appropriate things (k5 art?), that's a red flag.  Won't cost you more than $100, and it may turn up something.  You find one through COVD.  The OT can't diagnose SLD writing and may just say something vague.

 

Will he color?  Does he do dot to dots?  You're saying you want to do school work with him, but you're not listing handwriting.  You probably need to work on handwriting and some things for hand strength.

 

Is he doing anything for his overall body and core?  Gymnastics is AWESOME.  

 

It almost sounds like he's shutting down in this setting.  You're saying he's refusing to do for them skills that he could do at home.  That shutting down can take a long time to undo.  Even if you want back in, you could be flexible and keep applying in junior high till you got in.  He sounds like he'd be much happier at home.

[EndOfOrdinary]

My son is an only, an extrovert, and has very introverted parents. He hated writing until just recently (12). He is gifted. We chose to homeschool for percisely what you are describing. Ds is just plain bouncy and a butthead when he is not challenged. His teachers need to meet the needs of the entire class abd their administration. Asking them to deviate for just my kid puts everyone in an awkward situation. Either they change it up for my kid, or my kid gets in trouble, or there are battles at home. Some years might be great, but then the next one might be horrid. As Ds got older, the competition between kids and parents over whose kid was doing the best became uncomfortable. Separating social interactions and academics became even more important.

 

If you are supplimenting history, english, science, and math then you are homeschooling your kindergartener. Unless there is a VERY good reason to have him spend hours a day in a place he dislikes so much, I would ask myself where I thought this was going? Kindergarten at home is usually less than 30 minutes a subject. How much time are is he spending to keep your options open?

[maize]

Sounds to me like a five year old boy who doesn't want to write.

 

And schools don't accommodate well for that.

 

He could maybe qualify for a dysgraphia diagnosis and receive accommodations, but honestly-- If he has a teacher who can't differentiate between a kid who can't count and a kid who won't write the answer, I don't think that classroom is a good setting for him.

Edited December 2, 2016 by maize

[ktgrok]

I had mine tested at 14 for learning disabilities. At 5?? I'd chalk it up to being 5 and bring him home as soon as I can. It makes me sad to think of him sitting there having to do all that writing in kindergarten. I mean, it's kindergarten! Let them be little. Just my .02. And yes, of course he has gaps. All 5 yr olds have gaps (everybody, adults too, have gaps). I wouldn't get him tested at that age.

 

Yeah, nothing you are describing sounds like he has an issue (MAYBE dysgraphia or needing some OT for handwriting...MAYBe). The school has the issue, not your kid, in my opinion. I wouldn't keep him there if you don't absolutely HAVE to. Attitudes toward school work tend to stick....letting him learn that school work is frustrating and not fun wouldn't be a lesson I'd wanting him taking in for a whole other semester. 

[Crimson Wife]

I knew we were going to need a NP eval at some point for my 3rd child after she got diagnosed with autism shortly before her 3rd birthday.

 

We pulled the trigger at 6.5 even though it cost us $3.5k out-of-pocket when doctors discovered her hearing loss. We took her to a specialized neuropsychology clinic that is one of the handful in the country qualified to evaluate deaf & hard-of-hearing kids. I wanted to tease apart the impact of her not being able to hear properly from the additional challenges. The school district psychologist had tested DD 6 months prior and had had no clue what to make of the results. I don't fault her for not being able to interpret scores that literally ranged from <0.1st percentile to >99th percentile. My child is super-complex and not your typical student with an IEP.

[PeterPan]

You could also volunteer in the class so you can see for yourself, firsthand, what's going on. 

[Lecka]

I took my son at the end of 4th grade. He had already done school OT and private OT. He had already done extensive afterschooling with me to improve his reading.

 

His reading was great, his handwriting was not good enough and teacher accommodations were not enough for him any longer.

 

He has an IEP for dysgraphia and organizational help now.

 

I am glad we did it.

 

We hadn't done it partly bc price for a while, and then I got a shock when insurance paid. I also kept thinking his handwriting was getting better.

 

His handwriting has kept getting better, it is just not where it needs to be yet, so he needs the option of some accommodations at times. Mostly this means typing or giving an oral answer to the teacher. Sometimes someone scribes for him to help him get started. Things like that. It is going much better since he has gotten in a good routine and he does not need as much help bc his routine is good, so he does not get behind and then go into massive stress.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Lecka

[City Mouse]

I can't say from your experience that this is a terrible school. It must be successful for some kids, but it does not seem like it is the right school for your child.

 

Lots of kids don't like writing for lots of different reasons. It would not hurt to start out by talking to your child's doctor to see what can be done through your medical insurance. My DS got a referral for short term OT from his doctor due to pain in his hands. He was able to get the maximum visits allowed by our insurance. It isn't the identical to school based OT but kids only get OT in school if they are already on special education services.

[kbutton]

Piggybacking on why he might not like to write...my boys both struggled with writing, and it's because they have problems with it. Just because it's within the range of typical for a five-year-old boy to not want to write doesn't mean that he doesn't also have something else going on. Particularly if he is 2e and motivated by the subject matter.

 

Will tell you about my older son because it's more straightforward...we're still figuring out the other one.

 

My older son did part-time Montessori preschool (and that preschool had K integrated into it as well, so he could do K work as he was ready for it even in preschool). They were pretty supportive, and he had a really good experience there. They did do some writing tasks, but writing was writing, and tasks that were math-related had ways around the writing a lot of the time, depending on what they were doing (it might involve making marks, for instance, or coloring certain things, not always writing numbers). They could progress at their own pace. Anyway, all that to say it wasn't perfect, but it was good, and they actually identified issues with fine and gross motor skills that we had not seen and didn't really absorb. He didn't like to cut or write on the fine motor end, and there were some spotty skills on the gross motor. I thought they were just fussy and that he was not interested. After all, the child begged me to teach him to knit (at four), and knit he did. He always was very early with motor milestones as a baby and toddler. Well, he had legit motor issues in spite of that (and other things that came out over a long period of time). He also ended up having convergence insufficiency and ocular motor issues. They tested as mild, and once those were resolved, he gained enough motor improvement that OT ended up being a lot less of a hassle than it could have been.

 

We did have a ed psych testing along the way when he was both bored in a challenging private school AND exhibiting ADHD symptoms. He actually "grew into" all of his diagnoses over time, and they continue to become more apparent even though he's making progress across the board. At your son's age, most people just thought he was strong-willed and intense, and his strengths hid his disability areas.

 

Your answer may be that it's a school problem and another bag of tricks that is diagnostically significant. 

 

I think 6 is generally recognized as a better time for psych testing unless you have major red flags because there is more that they can look at, and things do get more black and white with age usually. I would look at OT evaluations and at getting a COVD optometrist to check eyes and things (also something that can be borderline and then get worse over time). Vision therapy with a COVD has been nothing short of life-changing for both of my kids. 

[magnificent_baby]

Similar issue here many years ago. She entered Kindergarten reading chapter books, so everything in Kindergarten and 1st was a repeat. Our school psychologist administered several tests to DD  and included IQ, Woodcock-Johnson (?) and I believe it was called the Iowa Assessment (not to be confused with the Iowa standardized testing/ITBS). The Iowa Assessment test at the time was a test to assess readiness for grade acceleration. They weren't super stellar at interpreting this info for me, but it gave me a great baseline. I did a lot of googling and reading on Hoagie's gifted to interpret myself. At least I had something concrete to go by when advocating for her academic needs at the time. Around that same time I tried finding outside professionals/counselors that specialize in working with these test results, in my large metro area there was maybe only 1 that specialized in counseling the bright/gifted that could help us with unique challenges that come along with it. Fast forward to now, she's still very bright but the content in middle school is keeping her challenged so not much of an issue right now. 

 

In your case, I would find out if there is a school psychologist and request testing. From my initial research it's very expensive to pay for on your own. 

[JulieA97]

Update: spoke with the teacher several times and things are better. We are going to reevaluate after Christmas break but she has started asking him some things instead of just judgn his knowledge on his writing. So she knows he can count for instance ;) He still has to do way more writing than should be expected for a 5 year old. She is going to have an OT check him out if there is any support he needs OT wise. So still a long way to go but I don't feel as frustrated as I was. She said for instance she realized maybe he was missing numbers when counting objects because it was so easy for him that he went too fast. Well yeah, that is what I have been saying! Going to delete the other messages as this is a public forum.

 

Thanks again so much everyone!

Edited December 6, 2016 by JulieA97

[PeterPan]

Legally, you can make that request too.  If you wait for her, you're letting them decide when to start the timeline. Look at your state's dept of ed website and find the IEP timeline and learn the acronyms.  Legally, you can write a letter and make the request today, which starts the timeline TODAY. Otherwise you're waiting for when the teacher gets around to it.  It's all the law, but it can make a big difference in how quickly this gets done. 

 

The NOLO book is really good on the IEP process.  While you're writing the letter, go ahead and say you suspect he's gifted or has ADHD or whatever also, to prompt that testing if you want. The ps diagnosed my ds with SLDs in math, reading, and writing in K5 because he's gifted.  It's NOT unheard of for them to do this. The IEP process is how you get that done. So your teacher is correct, yes, but you can help the process by making the formal written request yourself.

Edited December 7, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[DawnM]

We tried to get testing when he was 4 and again at 7 and we lived in CA.   Asperger's was not a common thing then and many knew very little about it.

 

When he was 14 we had him formally diagnosed in NC.  They looked at me funny and said, "CLEARLY he has Asperger's!" and couldn't believe he hadn't been diagnosed earlier.

 

Why was it important to get a diagnosis?  So that he could get the right treatment.  He has been in group and individual therapy for almost 5 years and it has helped a lot.

Edited December 7, 2016 by DawnM