What would you do about putting kids back in school?

[paulcindy]

My best friend has been homeschooling her 2 kids from preschool. They have never been to school.

 

This year she decided to enroll her eldest son in High School for Grade 9. He has done quite well and has adjusted just fine. The high school isn't the greatest, but he is thriving socially and academically.

 

Her other son, is 11. He would be going into Grade 6 this coming year. Her son has been BEGGING his mom to let him go to school. She does not really want to send him because she does not really like the school he would have to attend. Her son is very, very angry at her. He has been crying, moping, such and such because she keeps telling him no, he is not going to school and that is final. He has threatened to run away, locks himself in his room because he is so distraught over this.

 

She is having second thoughts, because now she feels since her oldest has done okay, maybe her other son might to.

 

They really are different kids. Her oldest is not really academic, and goes to a specialized high school for electronics. Her other son is more "book smart", and she feels that school would "dumb him down". And the choice of high school when he gets older, is either the one her oldest attends now, which would not be a good fit, or another high school that does not perform well academically.

 

Her 11 year old has alot of public schooled friends, because that is who is around. There are very little homeschooled kids his age around. (She does not live near me)So of course, he hears all about school, and tells his mom he feels like a "social freak". He cannot converse with them because he has nothing to say. Sometimes the kids will go into their group and talk about what happened at school, and he feels left out.

 

He is really resenting his mom. She calls me on the phone all the time, and has no idea what to do. I really do not know what to tell her. He was fine homeschooling until his brother went off, and his friends are now at the middle school. She is afraid she is going to lose him, and make things worse if she keeps him home. Her husband has stated that he is fine with whatever decision she makes.

 

I have no idea what to say? Do you have any advice I can tell her? She does not homeschool for religious reasons if that makes any difference.

 

:confused:

Edited May 3, 2009 by paulcindy

[SonshineLearner]

Pull herself up by her bootstraps and explain that he's still her responsibility. Just like she'd make decisions about anything else...education is how you learn what you need in life. Her decision...But, of course, he should get to have some control. But, I wouldn't just do what a 12 or 13 year old said...about anything. Now, of course, she should be trying to share the control of his day....but not give it all away.

Maybe a co-op...some classes at school...etc.

Carrie:-)

[paulcindy]

I did try telling her that. But she states that she is afraid he is going to rebel. And that she has one in school, and to tell one it is okay to attend but not the other, has made it more difficult.

 

There are no homeschool co-ops. She lives in a very rural area, and homeschooling is not even that popular. The school there are just like any other school. You have your bullying, dumbed down education, peer pressure, drugs. Nothing like metal detectors or anything like that. He has been yelling nasty things at her, like she loves his brother more then him. I say it is pulling on her heartstrings, but she tells me she has given him no indication she is sending him. She has only spoken to me about this, and her doubts about keeping him home this year.

 

She has allowed him to tell her his interests in his own education, but will then turn around and refuse to do any work. He wants to be schooled in a "class with other NORMAL kids". HIs exact words. She has taken away priveleges and her husband has spoken to him as well. But he is not the same boy he was last year.

 

Sigh........

[Suzanne in ABQ]

There is a huge difference between high school and middle school. If I were her, with her choices, I'd simply tell him that the discussion is over. She has taken his feelings into consideration, but she has made the decision. He will be home at least until high school, period. They'll reexamine the possibility of school when he it's time for high school.

 

In the meantime, she should work at finding him outside activities that will feed his need for social outlet.

[paulcindy]

Thank you so much for the advice so far. I know she really enjoys homeschooling and it is hard when your own child despises. Like she said "It really sucks the joy out of it".................

[Peela]

I can really empathise with the mother, as I have two extremely social kids who I honestly doubt I could homeschool if we didn't have a fantastic social network.

The thing is, kids, specially as they get older, really need peers, and some kids need them more than others. I have worked very hard to establish and maintain my kids' social networks because I think they would also resent me if they didn't have a lot of social time. When they first started homeschooling (I pulled them both out of school) they felt like freaks, and I knew the most important thing I could do was to get them homeschooled friends, to normalise what we were doing.

It has turned out though that even though they have homeschooled friends, their main social activity is Scouts.

Is there anything like that in your friend's area? It sounds to me like the boy is really hurting with his isolation, and I would take it seriously.

I agree the mother should absolutely be the one to make the decision...and trust her gut feeling about it....but if it is going to destroy her relationship with her son, is it worth it? Boys can get very fiesty in their pre-teens/early teens, and I dont think I could homeschool if my kids werent at least ok with it- even though dh says we would anyway, and that its not up to the kids, he is not the one on the coal face every day. It's hard enough when they are mostly cooperative.

Is there no way to increase the boy's social time? To find a compromise? I think being the only homeschooled kid around would be difficult on a kid.

[kellycbr]

I can really empathise with the mother, as I have two extremely social kids who I honestly doubt I could homeschool if we didn't have a fantastic social network.

The thing is, kids, specially as they get older, really need peers, and some kids need them more than others. I have worked very hard to establish and maintain my kids' social networks because I think they would also resent me if they didn't have a lot of social time. When they first started homeschooling (I pulled them both out of school) they felt like freaks, and I knew the most important thing I could do was to get them homeschooled friends, to normalise what we were doing.

It has turned out though that even though they have homeschooled friends, their main social activity is Scouts.

Is there anything like that in your friend's area? It sounds to me like the boy is really hurting with his isolation, and I would take it seriously.

I agree the mother should absolutely be the one to make the decision...and trust her gut feeling about it....but if it is going to destroy her relationship with her son, is it worth it? Boys can get very fiesty in their pre-teens/early teens, and I dont think I could homeschool if my kids werent at least ok with it- even though dh says we would anyway, and that its not up to the kids, he is not the one on the coal face every day. It's hard enough when they are mostly cooperative.

Is there no way to increase the boy's social time? To find a compromise? I think being the only homeschooled kid around would be difficult on a kid.

 

:iagree:Has she looked into hsing part-time? Or has she considered letting her son go to school but only if he achieves a certain GPA, etc? Let him go to school, but if he perform up to their expectations, or behave appropriately, then they can let him know what his alternatives are.

 

Kelly

[Anne Rittenhouse]

Besides the public middle school are there any other schools anywhere around where he would fit academically?

 

He has already demonstrated that he is not going to be cooperative about homeschool. I would send him to school with the expectation that very good grades will be obtained.

 

I would continue to enrich his academic experience at home. Field trips in the form of family outings, including museums, nature, art exhibitis and music events.

 

I would adjust the netflix list to include things like historical documentaries, staged productions of important plays, and iconic movies.

 

I would visit the library and continue to encourage reading of good literature at home.

 

Yes, he may be at school for the day, but she could also start to think about the time she does have with him and how she can extend, enrich and encourage his academic learning outside of class time.

 

I know of what I speak because my son became hugely resistant to home learning. He is now in a brick and mortar school and I am actively involved in "subversive learning tatics." It does work.....he "steals" my carefully chosen library books.....and eagerly goes along on family outings to local museaums .... TV is limited and carefully chosen.

 

Homeschool is one of several choices for education. If the idea is that we find the best educational option for each of our children individually and we re-evaluate our choices annually....then sometimes the best choice is not to homeschool. This doesn't mean we devalue education, only that we do what's best for the child.

[Ria]

Honestly, I think she should listen to her child. If he's that upset and unhappy, what is she gaining by making him more miserable and resentful? She could send him to school with the understanding that she'll give additional assignments and will be very involved in his education . If he would agree to that, the academic concerns would be over, right?

 

Ria

[MIch elle]

Honestly, I think she should listen to her child. If he's that upset and unhappy, what is she gaining by making him more miserable and resentful? She could send him to school with the understanding that she'll give additional assignments and will be very involved in his education . If he would agree to that, the academic concerns would be over, right?

 

Ria

 

:iagree:

[Chris in VA]

I think she needs to listen to her kid, but I'd be resistant to sending ANYONE to middle school. 11 yo is a tricky age.

I think it would be wise for her to get the disrespect under control before making her decision. After all the problems we've had, I wish I could have gone back and reached my boy's heart before he went off the deep end, which was around 11 yo.

[Jackie in AR]

I think she needs to listen to her kid, but I'd be resistant to sending ANYONE to middle school. 11 yo is a tricky age.

I think it would be wise for her to get the disrespect under control before making her decision. After all the problems we've had, I wish I could have gone back and reached my boy's heart before he went off the deep end, which was around 11 yo.

 

I agree, Chris. I wouldn't let an 11yo bully me into getting his way. *If* he can get his attitude under control, I would consider his arguments. But not until then.

[JFSinIL]

Show him examples of the type of work he'd be expected to be able to do after another year of homeschool. The type of written work, level of math, etc. Let him know that he MAY try one year of public school BUT you WILL be testing him at the end of the year and if he has lost ground or does not come up to scratch in core areas then back home he comes.

 

If the school does not teach history or any other important topic (logic?) he has to agree to do afterschool in that/those areas, too.

 

GPA won't cut it - depending on what the school teaches and the teachers a kid can get straight As and still learn less than a homechool kid.

[bettyandbob]

I would put emphasis on the fact that this is a decision for high school, not middle school. You give children privileges at different ages and the older child may have earned the privilege to choose to attend high school. That does not necessarily mean that the younger will earn that privilege when it's time to start high school. Not everyone gets their license at 16. My oldest was permitted to walk places on his own at a younger age than my dd, because she had demonstrated a tendency to wander places other than the intended goal. Also these are privileges not rights and children can loose these privileges anytime, by parent decision.

 

I would make an extra effort to make homeschool more interesting. I'd look at getting involved in more homeschool classes and fieldtrips and clubs, even if it meant driving.

 

11-14 is a tough age. Middle school tends to have a lot of problems. It's the place where most children who have trouble in high school are introduced to the things that lead to trouble (sex, drugs, gangs, although the intro can look less dangerous than these names). No middle school is immune--these problems are present whether you attend public/private/parochial/christian.

 

That said, it does not mean every child who attends middle school is messed up. Since the vast majority of business and government leaders attended middle school somewhere, we'd be in big trouble if middle school was a problem for every child. It means that if a child attends public middle school the parent needs to be hyper vigilant and at the same time be very unobtrusive about vigilance. I think successful middle school attendance requires a careful balance. I have friends with children in middle school now. The ones who seem to be doing the best are the ones who have been able to establish a relationship as a strong parent that still encourages a lot of communication--that's not a relationship you can start at age 10.

[Rhonda in TX]

He is bullying her, making her life miserable to get what he wants. I would never give in to that. She would be setting a very bad precedent. If he knows he can wear her down like that, he could end up walking all over her.

 

I'm not saying she shouldn't send him to school, but not after the way he's treated her. That would not even be an option in our home. I will listen to calm, rational discussions, but not to what he's doing to her.

[Karen sn]

Honestly, I think she should listen to her child. If he's that upset and unhappy, what is she gaining by making him more miserable and resentful? She could send him to school with the understanding that she'll give additional assignments and will be very involved in his education . If he would agree to that, the academic concerns would be over, right?

 

Ria

 

I have heard that middle school is NOT the time to put HS kids in "real school."

As well as the fact that by giving in you now have a kid who knows how to get his own way by throwing a fit and acting like a brat. I think the kid sounds like he needs to learn his place. By being "fair" he would go to to PS in the 9th grade like his brother.

 

This sounds more to me like a power trip, and as mama - I win.

So no way is my kid going to throw a fit to get his own way, especially when I have seriously weighed the consequences prior.

 

My son is 11 years younger than dd. Should she go to HS at 15yo for 9th grade he would be 4. Does that mean he gets to go to PS because his big sis does? I don't think so.

 

Giving in against your own wants, desires, educated decisions just because you have a kid throwing a little temper tantrum/pity party is not productive IMO.

[Mary in VA]

I only have dds, so none of this is from first hand experience. But I have observed friends with sons and noticed that at around this age, or a little older, they tend to want to pull away from mom more. This is especially hard when mom is the teacher! I have seen them have success when dad steps in and becomes more involved in day-to-day activities, outside activities and schooling when possible. Also, lots of physical activity!! Wear them out :001_smile:

 

I have also heard of dads having a heart-to-heart with their sons along the lines of, "I will not allow you to speak to my wife in a disrespectful way!"

 

Mary

[Karen sn]

He is bullying her, making her life miserable to get what he wants. I would never give in to that. She would be setting a very bad precedent. If he knows he can wear her down like that, he could end up walking all over her.

 

I'm not saying she shouldn't send him to school, but not after the way he's treated her. That would not even be an option in our home. I will listen to calm, rational discussions, but not to what he's doing to her.

 

Exactly!

[Snickerdoodle]

I would put emphasis on the fact that this is a decision for high school, not middle school. You give children privileges at different ages and the older child may have earned the privilege to choose to attend high school. That does not necessarily mean that the younger will earn that privilege when it's time to start high school.

 

 

Mine are not as old as the OP but I agree with this. Mine have a 3 year spread and it's been a little tricky with much smaller issues but hey, life is not equal or fair.

 

He is bullying her, making her life miserable to get what he wants. I would never give in to that. She would be setting a very bad precedent. If he knows he can wear her down like that, he could end up walking all over her.

 

:iagree:

[Danestress]

He's crying, begging, and miserable. She did say that he says "nasty" things to her, which isn't okay. But a lot of his behavior sounds to me like a child who is in real distress and is very unhappy.

 

I'm of two minds about it, because on one hand, I think kids have to accept parental authority and keep a cheerful spirit. On the other hand, he's really unhappy, and the only way he can make her see that is to display it. If he sits her down and says very calmly, 'I am so unhappy and despise being in homeschool and having to be alone with you all day" she will stick to her, "end of discussion" tactic. She's of a firm mind. So he knows (and it's true) that he has to really act out to have his feelings taken seriously.

 

I personally would let him go. I would put expectations and standards in place, but my relationship with my children is more important to me than where they school. If homeschooling were creating that much unhappiness, I would reconsider it. But if my child didn't really tow the line at home and in school, yanking him back home would be a very real option.

[paulcindy]

I have read all the responses, and thank you for all the advice. I will be speaking with her today sometime. It has been very hard for her. Thank you again:grouphug:

[Rosy]

In my house, privileges are never gained by whining, yelling, etc.

 

I would be willing to have a rational discussion with him when he was calm about it. But not until then.

 

Bottom line--she has to do what she feels is best for him. If the only reason she feel that ps would be good for him is because of his anger/distress/tantrum/whatever you call it, that would not be enough to tip the scales in my opinion. And even if I had reconsidered, in my family he would need to learn contentment before he was given the opportunity to make a change.

[Karen sn]

What makes it really tough is that his brother gets to go and he doesn't. Now "I" understand why, but a kid won't get that.

 

But I agree, I wouldn't do it because my kid was bullying me into it. That only sets a precedent that he can get his way if he acts like a big enough brat.

 

If he doesn't get that then he is way to immature to be going in the first place. Middle school is harsh (so I hear from these boards) and if the kid can't understand that his brother went in 9th and he may be able to go in 9th, then there is no way he will survive the social pressure to conform.

[Impish]

I have a 10 yo dd. Diva can be quite dramatic, hence her nickname. That said, whining does not ever win. There is no way on this green planet that threatening to run away from home, sulking, etc would ever be greeted with agreement. None.

 

Should the child be in public school? No idea. That, honestly, is something his mother knows best about. But, going on current behaviour alone, there's no way I'd agree. It wouldn't work for me to get the child any other event, (ie a trip, privilege, etc) that an older sib might have, why would it for school enrollment?

[Laurie4b]

Several things to consider:

 

Her dh needs to be actively involved in the decision. It is a set-up for him to be fine with "whatever she decides" because it intensifies the son-mother dynamic by making it about him and her, not about what is best for the son. It's an age when boys often need some distance from their mother anyway and dad is ---probably unthinkingly--abdicating his role. I would be careful that you don't end up taking the place of the dad as the one whom mom should be processing the decision with.

 

This boy has lost his only homeschool peer--his brother. Now he's alone with mom. That both is a loss to him as well as a way of intensifying the son needing to separate from mom dynamic.

 

Your friend & husband need to decide what is important and how important it is. Is academic achievement the most important thing? How important are social considerations? Neither the homeschool setting nor the school are ideal as described.

 

Friend and dh need to think about family dynamics. Mom is afraid she is losing her son. People fall on two sides of this: some think it's best to turn the screws tighter when a kid seems like he is rebelling; others are saying listen to the kid. For folks who have said they would not allow whining, etc to win the day, I think it's important to hear whether you've had a rebellious child, and whether that actually helped or hurt--if the child is now an adult, that would give time to show the fruit of that decision. My observation from watching friends is that those who were most concerned with enforcing parental authority have been most likely to lose their kids once the kids got away from home. The ones I'm thinking of are all homeschoolers with very good intentions. The kids rebelled in college, or late high school. Many had even seemed very cooperative up till that point.

 

As outsiders, we can't really determine what this child's behavior means. We can guess what it would mean if it were our child. We don't know whether the parents have tolerated this type of thing, in which case its meaning in their family system is different from what it would be in a family system where that had not been tolerated; we don't know whether their family system hasn't allowed an avenue for disagreements and this is the only way the kid can express himself. We don't know whether he's rebellious and if he is, why he is. We don't know if he's manipulative or simply desperate. The parents together with their son are in the best place to figure this out.

 

For me, it raises red flags that the mom feels she's losing her son. I respect mother's intuition. Eleven is an age when that can be turned around more easily than 15 or 16.

 

For me, I would not homeschool if my kid did not have a decent, fulfilling social life because I think that is extremely important and is something that homeschoolers need to provide for their kids. I am not an appropriate peer for my teen and preteen sons. They have peers and they have me and their dad. They need all of us for normal development.

[calandalsmom]

Its interesting that another person's misery here is being construed as bullying and disobedience.

 

 

If he is that exercised about it all I'd let him try school. School isnt the greatest evil on earth which must be avoided at all costs and for a boy, I think its far less damaging than solitary confinement at home with mom.

[sixpence1978]

If he is that exercised about it all I'd let him try school. School isnt the greatest evil on earth which must be avoided at all costs and for a boy, I think its far less damaging than solitary confinement at home with mom.

 

:iagree:

[HeatherInWI]

Its interesting that another person's misery here is being construed as bullying and disobedience.

 

 

Bullying and disobedience is not made acceptable by the excuse that it stems from misery. Bullying and disobedience is not acceptable in any situation.

 

Is there any chance that this family could move (I know that's hard in our economy right now)? Or take him to a homeschool group somewhere, even if it's a drive? Otherwise, I'd be with those who'd say that if his behavior improves and he shows himself to be a calm young man of good attitude through the summer, he could earn the privilege of trying public school -- with conditions on his behavior, his achievement, etc. Middle school won't improve his behavior, and in fact, usually drives more of a wedge between parents and children (and I say this as a former ps middle school teacher). If whiney, rude, and disobedient gets him what he wants now, it will likely be far worse once he's in public school.

[Impish]

Bullying and disobedience is not made acceptable by the excuse that it stems from misery. Bullying and disobedience is not acceptable in any situation.

 

Is there any chance that this family could move (I know that's hard in our economy right now)? Or take him to a homeschool group somewhere, even if it's a drive? Otherwise, I'd be with those who'd say that if his behavior improves and he shows himself to be a calm young man of good attitude through the summer, he could earn the privilege of trying public school -- with conditions on his behavior, his achievement, etc. Middle school won't improve his behavior, and in fact, usually drives more of a wedge between parents and children (and I say this as a former ps middle school teacher). If whiney, rude, and disobedient gets him what he wants now, it will likely be far worse once he's in public school.

:iagree:

I'm not saying the child isn't unhappy. I'm saying that threatening to run away from home, sulking, throwing fits is unacceptable, and not behaviour that I would allow to rule my decision making, because it will only ensure that it will continue.

[calandalsmom]

:iagree:

I'm not saying the child isn't unhappy. I'm saying that threatening to run away from home, sulking, throwing fits is unacceptable, and not behaviour that I would allow to rule my decision making, because it will only ensure that it will continue.

 

 

 

Threatening to run away from home is crying out for help because his parent will not listen to him and is continuing to ignore his needs.

 

An 11 yo has a limited emotional toolbox. Im not sure what sort of deal you'd like to strike with the child who is so unhappy, but personally I dont see changing someone's miserable situation as a reward for anything. Rather, its a natural approach to dealing with a problem.

 

I think some people are so wedded to their methodology that they forget that there are real people involved.

[Kathy in MD]

He's crying, begging, and miserable. She did say that he says "nasty" things to her, which isn't okay. But a lot of his behavior sounds to me like a child who is in real distress and is very unhappy.

 

I'm of two minds about it, because on one hand, I think kids have to accept parental authority and keep a cheerful spirit. On the other hand, he's really unhappy, and the only way he can make her see that is to display it. If he sits her down and says very calmly, 'I am so unhappy and despise being in homeschool and having to be alone with you all day" she will stick to her, "end of discussion" tactic. She's of a firm mind. So he knows (and it's true) that he has to really act out to have his feelings taken seriously.

 

I personally would let him go. I would put expectations and standards in place, but my relationship with my children is more important to me than where they school. If homeschooling were creating that much unhappiness, I would reconsider it. But if my child didn't really tow the line at home and in school, yanking him back home would be a very real option.

 

I was just about to pose a question based on your first two paragraphs. I'll still pose it. How is a child supposed to change a parent's mind when it's a totally wrong choice for the child? If the child has tried logic and the parent overrules it, what else can a child do? Because sometimes "father" doesn't know best.

 

Granted, 11 or 12 is a very emotional age. And it's a time when school work often goes to pot. And if this was a short lived rebellion, I'd try to make some adjustments but I'd still stick to my homeschooling guns. But this child is expressing a real need. And he's definitely old enough to discuss possible solutions. School isn't the only solution, but it needs to be on the table, with caviats. Some alternatives would take a lot of parent involvement in organizing and running boy activities (camping, boy scouts, fishing, movie night, etc.) that would give them more in common to talk about.

 

There may also be something else going on that the boy isn't talking about. It might be that the other boys are giving him a rough time about the homeschool stereotype, being a mama's boy or ? And being accused of being a mama's boy would be far, far worse than the stereotype.

[Kathy in MD]

Several things to consider:

 

Her dh needs to be actively involved in the decision. It is a set-up for him to be fine with "whatever she decides" because it intensifies the son-mother dynamic by making it about him and her, not about what is best for the son. It's an age when boys often need some distance from their mother anyway and dad is ---probably unthinkingly--abdicating his role. I would be careful that you don't end up taking the place of the dad as the one whom mom should be processing the decision with.

 

This boy has lost his only homeschool peer--his brother. Now he's alone with mom. That both is a loss to him as well as a way of intensifying the son needing to separate from mom dynamic.

 

Your friend & husband need to decide what is important and how important it is. Is academic achievement the most important thing? How important are social considerations? Neither the homeschool setting nor the school are ideal as described.

 

Friend and dh need to think about family dynamics. Mom is afraid she is losing her son. People fall on two sides of this: some think it's best to turn the screws tighter when a kid seems like he is rebelling; others are saying listen to the kid. For folks who have said they would not allow whining, etc to win the day, I think it's important to hear whether you've had a rebellious child, and whether that actually helped or hurt--if the child is now an adult, that would give time to show the fruit of that decision. My observation from watching friends is that those who were most concerned with enforcing parental authority have been most likely to lose their kids once the kids got away from home. The ones I'm thinking of are all homeschoolers with very good intentions. The kids rebelled in college, or late high school. Many had even seemed very cooperative up till that point.

 

As outsiders, we can't really determine what this child's behavior means. We can guess what it would mean if it were our child. We don't know whether the parents have tolerated this type of thing, in which case its meaning in their family system is different from what it would be in a family system where that had not been tolerated; we don't know whether their family system hasn't allowed an avenue for disagreements and this is the only way the kid can express himself. We don't know whether he's rebellious and if he is, why he is. We don't know if he's manipulative or simply desperate. The parents together with their son are in the best place to figure this out.

 

For me, it raises red flags that the mom feels she's losing her son. I respect mother's intuition. Eleven is an age when that can be turned around more easily than 15 or 16.

 

For me, I would not homeschool if my kid did not have a decent, fulfilling social life because I think that is extremely important and is something that homeschoolers need to provide for their kids. I am not an appropriate peer for my teen and preteen sons. They have peers and they have me and their dad. They need all of us for normal development.

 

Laurie, as usual, has raised some very good points and questions.

[HeatherInWI]

Threatening to run away from home is crying out for help because his parent will not listen to him and is continuing to ignore his needs.

 

An 11 yo has a limited emotional toolbox. Im not sure what sort of deal you'd like to strike with the child who is so unhappy, but personally I dont see changing someone's miserable situation as a reward for anything. Rather, its a natural approach to dealing with a problem.

 

I think some people are so wedded to their methodology that they forget that there are real people involved.

 

I've worked with thousands of "real people" in that age group. Threatening to run away from home is saying "I'm not getting my way and I'm going to make you miserable until I do." If your child wanted to throw beer bashes in your home and threatened to run away if you didn't let him, would you also see this as a "cry for help"? I hope not.

 

Children of that age are actually very sophisticated thinkers when it comes to how to manipulate their parents to get their own way. It's a good time to teach them to discuss things maturely and make rational decisions. Teaching them that manipulation and threats pay off, rather than to deal with problems in an open, honest, straighforward way, just sets them up for misery later -- a clear path to spousal and child abuse, broken relationships, lost jobs, and never learning mature problem solving techniques. I've often wondered why so many adults act like spoiled, selfish two-year-olds; I'm guessing it's because they've been taught that throwing temper tantrums is the best way to get what they want.

[calandalsmom]

I've worked with thousands of "real people" in that age group. Threatening to run away from home is saying "I'm not getting my way and I'm going to make you miserable until I do." If your child wanted to throw beer bashes in your home and threatened to run away if you didn't let him, would you also see this as a "cry for help"? I hope not.

 

Children of that age are actually very sophisticated thinkers when it comes to how to manipulate their parents to get their own way. It's a good time to teach them to discuss things maturely and make rational decisions. Teaching them that manipulation and threats pay off, rather than to deal with problems in an open, honest, straighforward way, just sets them up for misery later -- a clear path to spousal and child abuse, broken relationships, lost jobs, and never learning mature problem solving techniques. I've often wondered why so many adults act like spoiled, selfish two-year-olds; I'm guessing it's because they've been taught that throwing temper tantrums is the best way to get what they want.

Wow, you clearly do not think very highly of the children you work with. Those are some gross generalisations if I have ever heard them.

 

Im all for rational discussion and dealing maturely with problems. The fact is, ignoring them or authoritatively refusing to compromise your agenda in the face of a isolated and miserable child is a great way to alienate your kid.

 

Equating beer bashes and public school is such laughable hyperbole that I can't even dignify it.

Edited May 4, 2009 by calandalsmom

[kaylk in tx]

He was fine homeschooling until his brother went off, and his friends are now at the middle school.

 

Just going by what little we know of the situation and IF it were one of my kids, I'd say it was a combination of jealousy that the older sibling is getting to do something new and different and he's stuck with the same old thing AND wanting to be around his friends more often.

 

I'd let him know that he's NOT going to start a new school this late in the school year AND try to make more opportunities for him to be around his friends. If he's having trouble in the group situation (they're all talking about stuff I don't know about), try inviting one friend at a time over.

 

I'd also let him know that one of the biggest factors in the decision would be his maturity. Could I trust him to make smart decisions? And that the decision would not be made until after he's finished this current school year.

 

JMHO.... YMMV and all the other usual disclaimers :D

[phathui5]

*Phathui's Husband, Tim, Here*

 

A couple things. If this child were older, post-pubescent, I'd let him make his own decisions. But let's get something straight real quick, we're talking about an 11 year old child here. If you think he's rebelling now, just wait til you begin to give in. At this point in childhood development, you're still the boss. If he wants to follow in big brother's footsteps, then let him...just wait a few years. If he feels like a social freak, then get him involved in community college classes or baseball or karate or any activity that involves multiple children involved with each-other.

[momto2Cs]

Besides the public middle school are there any other schools anywhere around where he would fit academically?

 

He has already demonstrated that he is not going to be cooperative about homeschool. I would send him to school with the expectation that very good grades will be obtained.

 

I would continue to enrich his academic experience at home. Field trips in the form of family outings, including museums, nature, art exhibitis and music events.

 

I would adjust the netflix list to include things like historical documentaries, staged productions of important plays, and iconic movies.

 

I would visit the library and continue to encourage reading of good literature at home.

 

Yes, he may be at school for the day, but she could also start to think about the time she does have with him and how she can extend, enrich and encourage his academic learning outside of class time.

 

I know of what I speak because my son became hugely resistant to home learning. He is now in a brick and mortar school and I am actively involved in "subversive learning tatics." It does work.....he "steals" my carefully chosen library books.....and eagerly goes along on family outings to local museaums .... TV is limited and carefully chosen.

 

Homeschool is one of several choices for education. If the idea is that we find the best educational option for each of our children individually and we re-evaluate our choices annually....then sometimes the best choice is not to homeschool. This doesn't mean we devalue education, only that we do what's best for the child.

 

:iagree:

[Danestress]

*Phathui's Husband, Tim, Here*

 

A couple things. If this child were older, post-pubescent, I'd let him make his own decisions. But let's get something straight real quick, we're talking about an 11 year old child here. If you think he's rebelling now, just wait til you begin to give in. At this point in childhood development, you're still the boss. If he wants to follow in big brother's footsteps, then let him...just wait a few years. If he feels like a social freak, then get him involved in community college classes or baseball or karate or any activity that involves multiple children involved with each-other.

 

 

Well, having raised a child to adulthood, let me share the other side of this. If every time your child slams a door, throws a fit and threatens to run away you say, "just wait and see how bad it will be when you give in" then you are parenting in fear. I know, because I was sure that a slammed door at 11 might be drug abuse at 16 and robbing banks by 25.

 

Sometimes we realize that our child is having a fit because we weren't letting him know how seriously we take his opinions when he wasn't having a fit. I bet he didn't start with fits. I bet he started with, "Mom, now that my brother's gone, it's so boring. I wish I could go to school. I hate homeschooling."

 

The biggest mistakes I ever made with my now adult weren't the times I gave in. My biggest mistakes were the times I treated being sad or angry as a character fault and didn't really listen to the hurt behind the tantrum.

 

So I personally would try to get my ego and my fear out of it, and really try to look at what might be right for my child in the big picture - not just the academic parts, but for his whole person and for our relationship. And I suspect that the boy's father might give the best unbiased view on some of those issues. Dad may not want to really speak up because he doesn't want to be the bad guy to either Mom or son. But I bet he has more going on in his head than, "whatever you say, dear."

 

Anyway, I might not let the child go to junior high. But I would take him out to lunch, ask him to state his case again, and really listen. I would let him know I am really hearing what he's saying, and I would not just listen with half an ear. I would tell him how hard it is to make decisions when you really want to honor and respect what your young man thinks, but you also want what is best for him. Sometimes that sort of honesty and transparent struggling builds a lot of trust, and even if the child ends up disappointed, it beats the heck out of the child feeling disrespected.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Danestress

[vettechmomof2]

*Phathui's Husband, Tim, Here*

 

A couple things. If this child were older, post-pubescent, I'd let him make his own decisions. But let's get something straight real quick, we're talking about an 11 year old child here. If you think he's rebelling now, just wait til you begin to give in. At this point in childhood development, you're still the boss. If he wants to follow in big brother's footsteps, then let him...just wait a few years. If he feels like a social freak, then get him involved in community college classes or baseball or karate or any activity that involves multiple children involved with each-other.

 

:iagree:

[calandalsmom]

Its interesting to see how acting out due to abject misery is being characterized as "rebellion."

 

My 11 yo acted like this at age ten. He saw a counsillor for it. Things got a lot better. We believe in good communiction with our kids.

[Danestress]

rebellion to call a mother nasty names. Rebellion can have various causes - some of them things we can sympathize with.

[Dobela]

Unless the dad is going to step in and both parents act as a team addressing the behavior of this child, it won't matter where he goes to school. By not getting involved, the dad IMO is giving the child permission to be disrespectful. If the child stays home there needs to be serious intervention and consequences for the rude behavior. If there are no consequences, then the child has gotten away with treating the parent without respect. However, I feel that the child is already learned to manipulate the parent. He has her in a very emotional state and is using for all he can. She is worried that she is losing him - that means she is taking all of this very personally. I know it is hard not to do that, but sometimes you have to be the sheriff when parenting by standing your ground and putting on thick skin.

 

PS may be the best thing for this child. Teachers/principals are not going to deal with this attitude. They may challenge him in other ways. He can also see possibly that the grass is not greener somewhere else and learn to appreciate what he had at home. I say if there is this much turmoil, let the kid go but with some ground rules. Grades have to stay at some set level, have regular communication with the school teachers and counselors, and whatever else is necessary for that family. If the child doesn't meet the requirements, bring him home.

 

Sometimes a parent is wrong. While hte mom obviously beileves in homeschooling, it may be time to send this one on to ps.

 

OP, if I remember correctly, you have children about the same ages and in similar programs. What advice have you given already?

[Jill- OK]

I agree, Chris. I wouldn't let an 11yo bully me into getting his way. *If* he can get his attitude under control, I would consider his arguments. But not until then.

 

Totally agree.

 

I did try telling her that. But she states that she is afraid he is going to rebel.

 

She's afraid he's going to rebel?!?

 

What is "yelling nasty things at her, like she loves his brother more then him", if not rebellion?!

 

Sure, he might have some great points, but all she's teaching him if she relents, at this point, is that you get what you want through emotional terrorism.

 

There's nothing in the world wrong with saying..."He's older than you." I've told my high schoolers they're free to choose public school, but there's no way I'd tell a middle schooler that. If a middle schooler at my house pulled the above argument, I'd turn it around on him. "Well, I made your brother wait until high school. If I give you your way, now...he'd probably think I love YOU more than HIM."

 

Sure, he may really want to go, but...he needs to be respectful, and he needs to ask the right way, and be able to hear "Not right now". Not just about this, but about a lot of things in life. (This can be the beginning.)

 

There's no way I'd punt a kid with that little self-control/respect for me off to school, just to make him happy. I'd probably sit down with him and try to have a meeting of the minds, and talk about a timetable for getting him off to school... but I'd make his character development Job One for however long I kept him home.

 

Just My Opinion.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Jill, OK

[HeatherInWI]

Wow, you clearly do not think very highly of the children you work with. Those are some gross generalisations if I have ever heard them.

 

Im all for rational discussion and dealing maturely with problems. The fact is, ignoring them or authoritatively refusing to compromise your agenda in the face of a isolated and miserable child is a great way to alienate your kid.

 

Equating beer bashes and public school is such laughable hyperbole that I can't even dignify it.

 

You clearly don't understand. I loved teaching adolescents and I knew some great kids -- but I also understood a lot about how their minds worked. At school, they'd talk about their parents and how they could get whatever they wanted from them. Each kid had different techniques, because they knew what made their parents tick. I had one female student go so far as to say that if she didn't like the new step-dad she was about to get, she'd just call CPS and make a false claim he was molesting her so that she could get him arrested and out of her house. Interestingly, my best students, who've now grown up into responsible adults, were the ones who knew their parents couldn't be manipulated.

 

I wasn't saying that sending the boy to school was necessarily a bad idea, but doing it as a result of the sulky, nasty behavior rather than as a result of reasoned discussion and thought would be foolish.

 

And I wasn't comparing public school to a beer bash, I was just revealing the fallacy of your argument that threatening to run away over not going to public school was definitely a cry for help that should be given in to.

[Danestress]

I was just about to pose a question based on your first two paragraphs. I'll still pose it. How is a child supposed to change a parent's mind when it's a totally wrong choice for the child? If the child has tried logic and the parent overrules it, what else can a child do? Because sometimes "father" doesn't know best.

 

 

 

I think it's sort of unrealistic to expect an 11 year old to use logic anyway. Our reasons for homeschooling aren't all about logic - a lot of them are emotional too, and there is nothing wrong with that. I think most 11 year olds are more limited that adults in their ability to calmly stick to logical and respectful discussion. There's going to be some emotion. This is his life! The parent is the grown up and needs to keep trying to bring the discussion back to a sold, respectful, thoughtful ground, because the child isn't always going to do that. Part of being an adult ....

 

So I'm not sure. I agree that Father doesn't always know best, but I don't think I have to be perfect to get to be the mother and make some difficult decisions. And I don't think a child should have to perfectly present his case in order to be listened to respectfully.

 

Sometimes we probably make bad decisions for our children, and certainly we sometimes give them the choice to make bad decisions for themselves.

[Jill- OK]

Equating beer bashes and public school is such laughable hyperbole that I can't even dignify it.

 

...comparing beer bashes and public school; I think she's talking about desires.

 

This desire for him, right now, is strong, and it's causing him to act out, wildly (IMO).

 

All (I think) she's saying is...where does giving in to a child's overwhelming desire (as voiced through tantrums) stop? What's the criteria for putting your foot down and guiding them to a better way of communicating, and evaluating decisions?

[Jill- OK]

I'm all for rational discussion and dealing maturely with problems. The fact is, ignoring them or authoritatively refusing to compromise your agenda in the face of a isolated and miserable child is a great way to alienate your kid.

 

Do you believe there's ever a time when a parental agenda trumps a child's "happiness"?

 

I know we all evaluate these situations through our own glass, but if we're giving the mom the benefit of the doubt, and assuming she knows her own kids...she may well (and I think the OP alluded to this) see something in him that makes her believe he's better off at home for now.

 

Which leads me to another question...do you believe there's ever a time when public school might be the wrong choice for a child?

 

Also...how is she "ignoring" it? Not blindly giving in doesn't equate ignoring. And she's absolutely not denying there's a problem...what makes you say that?

[Peela]

Rebellion can have various causes - some of them things we can sympathize with.

 

:iagree:

Rather than formulaic parenting and saying I would never, ever give in to a tantruming child because then they would have it over me for ever ...I would rather respond freshly in the moment to the situation and try to meet the heart of this child and meet his real, deeper needs, which in this case, may be for more social contact, may be for school, may be for a break from his mum, or may be for learning the maturing process of waiting....may be all sorts of things. but how can one know unless one has a very open mind and heart, instead of a preconcieved way of dealing with everything?

[Rhonda in TX]

She was in school until halfway through 2nd grade. We pulled her out then and, at the time, she was happy about that. Later, though, she became miserable. She cried and whined about missing school and wanted to go back.

 

Going back to school was not an option, but I did listen to her. I found a one day/week enrichment class day for her and sent her this year. It gave her a taste of the classroom setting. She made some friends. The kids in the class with her are homeschooled, so that really helped her. She is so much happier now and was actually appalled when some kids in her class left and went back to public school. :)

 

I think it's possible to listen to your child and try to meet some of their needs without compromising on what is truly important to you, as a parent.

[JennC]

One idea I know of and might suggest is that some public schools have experience with and are open to hs children taking one or more classes at school. I know many people who have done this with success. Another advantage (IMO) is that depending on the school, then the student may be eligible for extra-curricular activities. Middle schools usually have more leeway on this, since they do not have the state HiSch association rules to contend with. This could be a win/win for her. I plan to have my 5th grader, coming home next year, take band at the school. This keeps him with his friends for a fun class and serves his accelerated academic needs, as well.