TheReader Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 Help! So, I teach 2nd graders (and K, and 1st) at our local homeschool "co-op" (as in, paid outside classes, not parent-led co-op). Today was compound words, and a kid volunteered the word "kitten -- kit...ten -- see?!" very excitedly. I admit, it stumped me. I mean, on the one hand, no. On the other hand, yes? Kit is, in fact, a word. Ten is, in fact, a word. Kitten is, in fact, a word made up of two words. But.....does that then, in fact, make it a compound word???? (for today, to encourage class participation and engagement, I allowed it, with verbal processing as I worked through it and the caveat that, "well, it isn't one we normally think of as a compound word, but it does in fact have two real words in it, so....I'll put it up for today....." But is it???? Because it feels like no, only I can't figure out why not. (the list included things like "maybe" which we also don't think of as one, but is, so....) What says those in the Hive who are smarter than me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeAgain Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 Not a compound word. Neither word found in 'kitten' are a part of the whole idea, which is necessary for compound words, like 'pancake'. It's a two syllable word, yes, but when you look at the etymology it's evident that it's always been a form of a two syllable word (from kitoun in Middle English to cattus in Latin). No compounding. Compound, however, is a compound word, from com(together) and ponere(to put out) 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 It only accidentally looks like it is made up of two words. In fact it has its own history as a whole word. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinRTX Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 27 minutes ago, HomeAgain said: Neither word found in 'kitten' are a part of the whole idea, which is necessary for compound words, like 'pancake'. I agree that kitten is not a compound word. But with the above how is butterfly a compound word? I see pancake as a small cake in a pan. But butterfly is not butter that flies, yet butterfly is considered a compound word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeAgain Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 10 minutes ago, LinRTX said: I agree that kitten is not a compound word. But with the above how is butterfly a compound word? I see pancake as a small cake in a pan. But butterfly is not butter that flies, yet butterfly is considered a compound word. Butterfly comes from both words. The thought is that maybe it's due to color or the thought they stole butter? But it's murky. I'd go with the color of butter, and being an insect, but that's my more logical mind looking at it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 (edited) 25 minutes ago, LinRTX said: I agree that kitten is not a compound word. But with the above how is butterfly a compound word? I see pancake as a small cake in a pan. But butterfly is not butter that flies, yet butterfly is considered a compound word. It is butter+fly, etymologically. Anglo-Saxon butterfleoge (literally, butterfly) so-called after the yellow species of Papilionoidea Edited August 21 by regentrude 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 (edited) 27 minutes ago, LinRTX said: I agree that kitten is not a compound word. But with the above how is butterfly a compound word? I see pancake as a small cake in a pan. But butterfly is not butter that flies, yet butterfly is considered a compound word. 14 minutes ago, HomeAgain said: Butterfly comes from both words. The thought is that maybe it's due to color or the thought they stole butter? But it's murky. I'd go with the color of butter, and being an insect, but that's my more logical mind looking at it. An Old German word for butterflies was botterlicker (butter-licker), and even the current word, schmetterling, references cream. In Old Dutch it was boterschijte — possibly the yellow color of butterfly poop is what inspired the idea that they eat butter. Edited August 21 by Corraleno 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheReader Posted August 21 Author Share Posted August 21 Okay, perfect! Thank you!! My instinct was "no, it's not..." but then I couldn't quite figure out *why not* and especially why not in a way that 2nd graders would understand. First time I've had a kiddo come up with something like that! (usually they come up with things like "lion" and "table" and we discuss how 2 syllables doesn't mean compound word, and how it has to be 2 separate words....but then today, kitten. This all makes sense! Thanks, all! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarita Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 Without getting into the true etymology of the word as an explanation to K and first graders, I saw an article which explains it as kitten the meaning of the whole word is not derived from any part of the two words you find in it. In terms of butterfly or ladybug at least you can find one related word. If you want to get closer to the true reason you could then say, which you could surmise as at one point the butter or the lady part also had something to do with the butterfly or ladybug. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 Not a compound word if you put Kit with Ten - you have "ten kits". not a kitten. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 4 hours ago, TheReader said: But.....does that then, in fact, make it a compound word???? No. The derivation plays a part in whether something is a compound word. It comes from the word kitoun. So the "ten" part is not and never was ten. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 15 hours ago, LinRTX said: I agree that kitten is not a compound word. But with the above how is butterfly a compound word? I see pancake as a small cake in a pan. But butterfly is not butter that flies, yet butterfly is considered a compound word. I don’t think butterfly is a compound word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 Kitten is not a compound word. Butterfly is a compound word. I thought this about both of them & then googled to verify. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 5 hours ago, TechWife said: I don’t think butterfly is a compound word. Butterfly is a compound word because it derives from the words "butter" and "fly" (we can trace the compound back as far as Old English, when "fleoge", fly, was used for any winged insect). Similarly, dragonfly, horsefly, and firefly are compound words. The "butter" part of butterfly is the kind of butter we eat; there are various theories as to why speakers of Old English related butter to these flying insects; it could have been the color of the wings of particular butterflies, or that they were thought to eat butter or cream, or that they produce yellow excrement... 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 This reminds me of something in a Ramona Quimby book where she's fascinated to learn about compound words, but does not understand why "carpet" isn't a pet that stays in a car. 😛 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 No it's not a compound word but I have to say I love that your lesson got young children looking at words and trying to take them apart. ❤️ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 I suppose words derived from foreign language compounds aren't considered English compound words? I find it amusing that dandelion is a compound word derived from French dent-de-lion (lion's tooth) but in France dandelions are usually called pissenlit...which is also a compound, but with a much different meaning! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheReader Posted August 22 Author Share Posted August 22 1 hour ago, Lady Florida. said: No it's not a compound word but I have to say I love that your lesson got young children looking at words and trying to take them apart. ❤️ Aww, thanks! They *love* being challenged to come up with words, and it's so fun to watch their minds engage as we work from just all 2-syllable words being compound words (no) to the fact it's only words where each part of the word can be its own picture (like cup+cake = cupcake). But then that's what led to kitten and all, so.... It's also a great way for me to gauge who has what level of reading/spelling/language awareness yet. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy the Valiant Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 11 minutes ago, TheReader said: Aww, thanks! They *love* being challenged to come up with words, and it's so fun to watch their minds engage as we work from just all 2-syllable words being compound words (no) to the fact it's only words where each part of the word can be its own picture (like cup+cake = cupcake). But then that's what led to kitten and all, so.... It's also a great way for me to gauge who has what level of reading/spelling/language awareness yet. Are they too young to understand about contronyms? ❤️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheReader Posted August 22 Author Share Posted August 22 6 minutes ago, Lucy the Valiant said: Are they too young to understand about contronyms? ❤️ Well, I had to go look that up....we don't cover those, but we do later in the year cover regular antonyms, synonyms, homonyms, etc. In K and even in 1st, antonyms are a challenge while they learn to sort out "different does not automatically equal opposite" although by 2nd grade they usually have that sorted. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarita Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 52 minutes ago, TheReader said: They *love* being challenged to come up with words, and it's so fun to watch their minds engage as we work from just all 2-syllable words being compound words (no) to the fact it's only words where each part of the word can be its own picture (like cup+cake = cupcake). But then that's what led to kitten and all, so.... I still think it's great that they show the knowledge and comfort to ask, but I totally understand too when they ask the questions that completely stump you. I mean I know it's good for them for me to say "I don't know, let me get back to you," at the same time it's hard to admit to a kindergartener they asked something you don't know about from an ego stand point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheReader Posted August 22 Author Share Posted August 22 1 hour ago, Clarita said: I still think it's great that they show the knowledge and comfort to ask, but I totally understand too when they ask the questions that completely stump you. I mean I know it's good for them for me to say "I don't know, let me get back to you," at the same time it's hard to admit to a kindergartener they asked something you don't know about from an ego stand point. Oh, gosh, no! I have no trouble admitting to them they stumped me -- I want them to see that we are *all* always learning. It helps so much for them when they have those hard moments later - they can look back and say, "well, Mrs. Reader didn't know, so maybe it's okay to not know right away..." How it went in class was: "hmm....I don't think it is....well, hmmm....."kit" is a word....and "ten" is a word....and together they do make a new word....so....hmmm. I'm not sure it is really truly a compound word, but it's a really good guess, so let's put it up here anyway....because you're right, both parts of it are words all by theirselves...." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginevra Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 By the way, “maybe” is one, because it refers to something that “may be”. It “may be” that I let you spend the night at grandma’s house = “Maybe”. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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