NPD family question, for the hive experts

[Spryte]

I probably won’t use the current terms correctly, so please bear with me. I’m not a YouTube watcher and don’t keep up with the NPD stuff, other than reading here.

When a “scapegoat” (hoping that’s the right word) essentially exits the madness and goes no contact with the NPD person for many years, to the point that there is literally zero contact, even through other people (so scapegoat just exited from everyone’s life — NPD person’s spouse, kids, friends, siblings, extended family) — what happens to the pattern of behavior that is left, well, without a scapegoat? 

Does the NPD person continue to rant about the scapegoat and scrape up what little info they can find through dubious sources and online?

Or — and this is what I’m wondering — do they ever create a new scapegoat, essentially moving someone else down the ladder to take the place of the scapegoat? 

It seems to me — and again, I’m no expert — that without the scapegoat, the NPD person still needs to feed that need for one. So if there’s info about the scapegoat to consume, obviously the energy goes there. But if it’s just a vacuum, and scapegoat has not had contact with anyone the NPD person knows, do they find another one?
 

 

[Katy]

I’m no expert, but I think it could go either way. 

[Kassia]

1 minute ago, Katy said:

I’m no expert, but I think it could go either way. 

or even maybe both...find a new one while continuing with the old one.  

[Carrie12345]

If they have access to a new scapegoat, sure. But there can still be an obsession with the old one.

In my experience, the scapegoat and golden child were interchangeable depending on who met the criteria at the time. So GCs should watch their backs. Well, assuming a GC who acknowledges the problem. 

[Spryte]

So, I’m thinking that even if the scapegoat stays NC for decades with NPD person and the crowd around them, and therefore doesn’t ever know if there’s still the same obsessive behavior going on—it’s still likely going on. Especially if NPD person is capable of sort of spying on scapegoat, so likely has little bits of disjointed, out of context info to pick apart and chew on and “discuss.” 

Then maybe there’s less need to shove another family member down the hierarchical ladder and make another scapegoat? 

Or would the NPD type most likely *need* to have someone currently in their life to treat that way? Because absent scapegoat isn’t very rewarding, I’d guess, so maybe a secondary scapegoat is needed?

So a sibling who was formerly ok might be suddenly the new, for-now scapegoat? 

If you’ve witnessed a scapegoat make an exit like this, for decades, what did it look like in the FOO once scapegoat had been gone for many years? 

ETA: I hope I’m making sense.

Edited March 7 by Spryte

[gardenmom5]

Usually the scapegoat is a handy person to blame everything on.  They might find a new one, or they might engage in different behaviors.  Depends how much need they have.
the scapegoat isn't the person "feeding" the narcissist - they are the convenient whipping boy to be the recipient of their frustration and blame.

Dr. Ramani previously did a series defining terms.  You can also listen to some of her posts talking specifically about scapegoats.

[Carrie12345]

6 hours ago, Spryte said:

So a sibling who was formerly ok might be suddenly the new, for-now scapegoat? 

If you’ve witnessed a scapegoat make an exit like this, for decades, what did it look like in the FOO once scapegoat had been gone for many years? 

I’m not inside that club, so I can only extrapolate from limited observation. The remaining adult sibling, who had always been in a codependent relationship with the NP, ended up in a very tumultuous (and still codependent) dynamic with them, much like we see in an emotionally abusive romantic relationship that seems impossible to exit. I don’t know what that looks like today, but it was bad a few years back. Like, court orders issued due to grandchildren involved.  
But that’s just 1 anecdote in the world of NP stories, and involves a whole slew of mental health issues all the way around.

[mmasc]

IME, the narcissist had his “favorite” scapegoat, but was in no way limited with one. He likes to have a few handy at all times. 
 

ETA: I’m sorry you have to ask this question bc it means you have one in your life somehow. And for that I’m truly sorry. 😔

Edited March 7 by mmasc

[Indigo Blue]

My understanding (from Dr. Ramini, Dr. Les Carter, and others) is that the golden child-scapegoat-NPD scenario is dynamic. Usually the golden child is pretty much the same, but it CAN change. It is possible for a scapegoat to move up the ladder if something happens between GC and NPD. At any given point in time, a person can quickly move from friend to enemy of the NPD. 
 

The NPD needs supply just like they need air. This is why things can change. The needs of their fragile ego must be met, so positions can be dynamic if it is necessary.

13 hours ago, Spryte said:

Does the NPD person continue to rant about the scapegoat and scrape up what little info they can find through dubious sources and online?

YES. ABSOLUTELY. My non gc brother, who no longer gets entangled with her,  gets talked about constantly. 

 

8 hours ago, Spryte said:

If you’ve witnessed a scapegoat make an exit like this, for decades, what did it look like in the FOO once scapegoat had been gone for many years? 

The NPD will just naturally default to shedding their toxicity elsewhere. 
 

My mom is not diagnosed, but you probably know that I think she’s a narcissist. My mom had a golden granddaughter. When they had a major disagreement, that gd went from someone my mom was always trying to “rub in my face” for lack of better explanation, to someone my mom began to trash, astonishingly, to me, in my presence, behind the gd’s back. 
 

And I did witness her manipulating my golden child brother just last week. Little things that I would never have noticed before until I learned so much about what these behaviors look like. I spotted it immediately! 
 

Don’t quote this part!!!!

Mom and adult golden child brother live together. Brother bought a pair of socks for plantar fasciitis. A six pack. I was looking at them because Dh also has plantar fasciitis. Mom said give him a pair. Brother didn’t respond, so I knew he didn’t want to part with any of his socks. I said it’s fine, I’ll order Dh some. No big deal. Mom said to brother, no! John, (fake name) give him a pair! He’s been over here doing so much and fixing so many things at YOUR house! You give him a pair! to a grown 50 something adult man. 
 

I spoke up (gently, of course) ….mom don’t guilt him. He doesn’t “owe” us his socks. You are making him feel guilty about it. 
 

Mom doubled down. Brother was looking at me incredulously, and seemed stunned that I called out her “guilting”. He promptly dropped a pair of socks in my lap. I felt it was because of what I said rather than her manipulating. 
 

Also, if you’d been paying really close attention, you’d have noticed that she used the words “he’s done so much at YOUR (brother’s) house.” She bought and paid for the house, but it’s in his name. She cleans, decorates, and makes decisions as if it’s her house. Always. When she wanted to manipulate, suddenly it was HIS house. 
 

Basically, if you are not for them, you are against them. This can change depending on how you are meeting the needs of the NPD. 
 

 

[Janeway]

13 hours ago, Spryte said:

what happens to the pattern of behavior that is left, well, without a scapegoat? 

Does the NPD person continue to rant about the scapegoat and scrape up what little info they can find through dubious sources and online?

Or — and this is what I’m wondering — do they ever create a new scapegoat, essentially moving someone else down the ladder to take the place of the scapegoat? 

 

 

I can tell you this. When the scapegoat is gone, at first, they will continue to rant and rave about the scapegoat, until they are tired out. There is no new material and the target is not around to feel the pain. So, they find someone new. And it is common that the new scapegoat is someone who formerly supported targeted the original scapegoat, so ha ha ha on them. Whatever...been there, and I am just not the current target and would like to keep it that way.

[Carol in Cal.]

Both, from what I have seen, especially at first.

 

[kathyl]

I was the scapegoat in my FOO.  My mother was always trying to get info about me, my kids, my dh, and anything else in and around me that she could.  Then, she would take that info and use it for gossip fodder, or twist it into lies and spread those to anyone who would listen, etc. 

When cell phones first came into use, a lot of people didn't give out their phone numbers because it cost money to make calls.  So we switched to cell phones and got rid of the landline.  I told my mother that she could write if she wanted to contact me because of the cell phone thing.  She never wrote and I never heard from her again even though I continued to send her cards and such for a year with no response from her.  She eventually died and I did not go to the funeral.

I knew that she continued to try to get info about me from my oldest ds.  He didn't exactly spell it out to me (he was her GC grandson), but I could tell by some of the things he said and the questions he asked.  I know she also continued to tell my brother (her GC) lies about me and try to get info from him.  That brother eventually stopped contacting me and I'm pretty sure it was because he believed her lies.

I find it hard to believe that she didn't create another scapegoat - or 2 or 3 or ... - once I was out of 'reach'.  I mean, that WAS her whole life, gossiping, lying about me (and others), meddling in other people's lives, etc.  Like someone above said, that was her 'air'.  And the more the better where scapegoats are concerned.

IOW, I do believe that the NPD is perfectly capable of juggling as many scapegoats as they have the energy and time for, all at the same time.  I suspect it makes life more 'interesting' for them.  At least from watching the ones I've known.

 

Edited March 7 by kathyl

[prairiewindmomma]

All of the roles can rotate regularly. Currently the previous scapegoat (who re-entered the picturr) is now golden child because so many people are going no contact with the dysfunction. 

[Indigo Blue]

In my case, my brother has been the golden child for basically his whole life. My mom depends on him emotionally, he was treated very differently all along, etc. He, as an adult, is so enmeshed with her, he can’t stand back and see the big picture. The rest of the people in her life can change roles, depending on several things, including how the person treats her, etc.

I can gain favor with her if I let her get close enough to me to dig in and control me, like she tries to do with my brother. But the closer I let her get, the more she feels free to say what she thinks, start arguments, rage if I say something wrong, etc. I have learned to keep a certain distance. Even though I could gain some favor, it’s not the same as the gc. It never will be. I have lived long enough to see that will never happen, and, at this point, I know enough to know I don’t want it to. 
 

 

[Sneezyone]

In my experience, the NPD will torment whoever is left that might even possibly get the person who leaves to respond. It takes a lot of discipline to go no contact and few have the stomach to do it family wide.

Edited March 7 by Sneezyone

[Spryte]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

In my experience, the NPD will torment whoever is left that might even possibly get the person who leaves to respond. It takes a lot of discipline to go no contact and few have the stomach to do it family wide.

It’s not easy, that’s for sure.

[Amoret]

7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

In my experience, the NPD will torment whoever is left that might even possibly get the person who leaves to respond. It takes a lot of discipline to go no contact and few have the stomach to do it family wide.

And there has to be widespread, deep dysfunction for an entire family to turn against the scapegoat. It's terrible.

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, Amoret said:

And there has to be widespread, deep dysfunction for an entire family to turn against the scapegoat. It's terrible.

Trust, I’ve seen it. It’s easier to blame long-term victims who act out or cut off contact than confront the complicity that permitted the abuse and disfunction to flourish. Watching the reveal before neutral witnesses in court is validating.

Edited March 7 by Sneezyone

[Spryte]

1 hour ago, Amoret said:

And there has to be widespread, deep dysfunction for an entire family to turn against the scapegoat. It's terrible.

Yep. 

Although in the case I’m referencing, and wondering what happened with the NPD, the scapegoat just left it all behind. Some of the family would fall under the “turned against” umbrella, but probably not all members. Maybe (??) some cousins or extended family members or ILs might have stayed, I don’t know, friendly. But neither did any of them reach out, so it’s hard to say. Not sure I would say anyone outright turned against the scapegoat, more like they just didn’t notice as the scapegoat slipped away from it all. And then if they asked about the absence, they would hear whatever explanation the NPD person chose to share. Of course, they’d all know the ax could fall on them, too, so probably no probing questions were asked even if they felt friendly toward scapegoat. Nevertheless, no contact with any of them for many years. Long enough that scapegoat thought perhaps they were no longer a topic of “discussions.” 

The interesting thing I’ve gathered from this thread is that it’s likely the NPD still fixates on the scapegoat, even if they have new scapegoats. Scapegoat has reached a point of not thinking about NPD person and their crowd very often, so  that’s a bit surprising. 

Oof, please don’t quote, I may delete some of that later.

[Scarlett]

@Indigo Blue I won’t quote but that is an astonishing incident. 

[saraha]

21 minutes ago, Spryte said:

This is kind of what happened to me. I’ve lost all contact with extended family.

Edited March 8 by saraha

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, Spryte said:

Yep. 

Although in the case I’m referencing, and wondering what happened with the NPD, the scapegoat just left it all behind. Some of the family would fall under the “turned against” umbrella, but probably not all members. Maybe (??) some cousins or extended family members or ILs might have stayed, I don’t know, friendly. But neither did any of them reach out, so it’s hard to say. Not sure I would say anyone outright turned against the scapegoat, more like they just didn’t notice as the scapegoat slipped away from it all. And then if they asked about the absence, they would hear whatever explanation the NPD person chose to share. Of course, they’d all know the ax could fall on them, too, so probably no probing questions were asked even if they felt friendly toward scapegoat. Nevertheless, no contact with any of them for many years. Long enough that scapegoat thought perhaps they were no longer a topic of “discussions.” 

The interesting thing I’ve gathered from this thread is that it’s likely the NPD still fixates on the scapegoat, even if they have new scapegoats. Scapegoat has reached a point of not thinking about NPD person and their crowd very often, so  that’s a bit surprising. 

Oof, please don’t quote, I may delete some of that later.

You’re describing some of my cousins.

Edited March 8 by Sneezyone

[footballmom]

Scapegoat of my FOO here. In my experience, the scapegoat - even No or low contact - keeps the NPD and the toxic framework around them secure. It’s not them, it’s the scapegoat. Too easy to spin and pin whatever needed on the scapegoat. 

[Spryte]

20 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Your describing some of my cousins.

Are we related?! 🤣

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Spryte said:

Are we related?! 🤣

Could be. It’s a big, public family and we have more than one NPD, all spawned from the same person.

Edited March 8 by Sneezyone

[Spryte]

36 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Could be. It’s a big, public family and we have more than one NPD, all spawned from the same person.

I think it’s likely we have more than one NPD, too. So sad to see the pattern continue.