I work with a bully (or maybe just an insensitive jerk)

[Kanin]

The title says it all. I work with a bully! He is nice 95% of the time, and then loud and pushy for the other 5% of the time. His way of getting what he wants is to raise his voice (and boy, can his voice project!).

I am disgusted with myself for being intimidated by it, but I am. There is also a 20+ age difference. I want to address this with him directly, because I think it's important for co-workers to be able to talk with each other, and because I also hate the idea of going to a supervisor before trying to work things out first. I just have absolutely no idea of how to go about it. Every scenario I play out in my head ends with a raised voice and sarcasm. 

Edited February 20 by Kanin
Topic

[Katy]

Just file a complaint and be done with it. Unless you’re in the military or professional sports it is not okay to lose it at work or get your way through yelling, intimidating, or harassing behavior. It’s illegal and it’s your supervisor’s job to consult with HR or legal department and figure out how to handle it, not yours. 

[JustEm]

I'd recommend just going straight to the supervisor with the issue.  It is not your job to handle a coworkers poor behavior, that is what HR is for

[Carol in Cal.]

Practice in advance in your head.

Personally, I have adopted the stance that I am not the kind of woman to be made to back down just because some guy yells at me.  I do not yell back but I do not give in either.  I refuse to reward that kind of behavior.  I answer politely but firmly, and if necessary I address inaccuracies.  Like, “You are misrepresenting me.”  

[Lecka]

Don’t you work in a school?  Totally unacceptable.  

[katilac]

Yes, practice in advance.

I disagree with going straight to a supervisor if you haven't done anything so basic as asking him to lower his voice. Unless his behavior is egregious, that is likely to be the first thing the supervisor asks you (have  you addressed this with Bob directly?). 

Break it apart to make it easier to address.

Is he yelling at people, is he yelling at all, is he a loud guy who gets louder in heated discussions? Some members on one side of my family have that projecting voice, and any level of enthusiasm has them "yelling" if you go by volume alone, lol. 

Saying he's "pushy" isn't helpful; what does he do? Address his actions more than his attitude. Is he interrupting and trying to shut down appropriate discussion? Is he is being persistent that things have to be done a certain way? The level of persistence might be more or less appropriate depending on whether it's a task directly related to him/his team or not, and whether there is a set procedure for the task. If he is persistently telling you to do a task that you 'own' in a specific way, what happens if you end the conversation? Thanks for your thoughts on that, I'm going run the X report now. That's an idea, see you at the meeting later. I understand that Y worked for you when doing this task, but I'm not comfortable deviating from procedure, I have to do Z now, so I'll see you tomorrow. 

[Kanin]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

Don’t you work in a school?  Totally unacceptable.  

I do, and I agree!

[Clarita]

I find a few ground rules for when I have to confront people about stuff is:

1) Keep my grievances about things between him and me, no one else.

2) Address the issue immediately after the occurrence. Don't go to him tomorrow and say last month you did x,y,z. And when you do address him about it only talk about the current event.

Basically the next time he does this let him do his thing, stay silent then after he completes his rant or is waiting some response from you say "I don't like being yelled at. Please don't yell at me" If he responds with inappropriate behavior just say "that's not an appropriate way to address me; it is unprofessional." 

For business stuff I tend to keep my feelihs out of it and strictly stick to whether the behavior is appropriate or not for the workplace.

[Myra]

Personally, I would talk to boss/supervisor first to apprise of situation prior to talking to co-worker.  Explain to supervisor that you are planning to talk to co-worker about  your concerns but wanted to give heads-up of situation before you do.  That way, in case it escalates your boss has your back.

 

 

[gardenmom5]

start recording all those episodes.
 Let your supervisor know - let HR know . . . . . .This is a serious problem.  I had a boss who literally would rather keep the bully, and fired/drove to quit everyone who complained about the bully.   Only when a supervisor (who outranked the bully's supervisor) from another dept who had to deal with all the people quitting because of the bully, was the bully gone.  That day.

[Katy]

Don’t record anything unless you understand the laws in your state. I’ll never forget that kid in Illinois who got charged with a crime for recording his teacher AND principal abusing him. 

[KungFuPanda]

I’ve learned to be an impassive observer. It’s come in handy at work. Every now and then someone comes in and it’s clear that bullying is a tactic that works for them. It’s super interesting to watch them squirm and panic and escalate when the bullying doesn’t work. They think bluster will either change a policy or gain them special treatment. It’s pretty clear this has worked for them in the past but there’s really nothing they can change by being nasty. 
 

I don’t take it personally. Not everyone is graceful under pressure. Students at work are super stressed lately because they’re trying to get into classes that started three weeks ago. All I can do is explain the late exception process and hope they understand it’ll take a few days because now the deans are involved. Most people get it but we do get people who are real mad and not afraid to display it. 

[Hannah]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

I’ve learned to be an impassive observer. It’s come in handy at work. 

This.  

There was a notorious bully who was my senior (but not line manager) and he once started yelling at me in a meeting with other senior people because I disagreed with him on a particular proposal and started telling him why.  Raising his voice was a tactic he used a  lot and it seems his colleagues had got used to and let him get away with it.  I just sat and stared at him as if I was watching the spectacle of the century. Once he was done, I continued giving him a quizzical look, waited at least 5 seconds and then said, "as I was saying..".  He never yelled where I was nearby again.

I just think to myself, "you're no relation of mine and I don't care how you behave".  Don't engage in his game.

If he's doing this to the children, I would escalate.

[Kanin]

21 hours ago, katilac said:

Is he yelling at people, is he yelling at all, is he a loud guy who gets louder in heated discussions? Some members on one side of my family have that projecting voice, and any level of enthusiasm has them "yelling" if you go by volume alone, lol. 

Saying he's "pushy" isn't helpful; what does he do? Address his actions more than his attitude. Is he interrupting and trying to shut down appropriate discussion? Is he is being persistent that things have to be done a certain way? The level of persistence might be more or less appropriate depending on whether it's a task directly related to him/his team or not, and whether there is a set procedure for the task. If he is persistently telling you to do a task that you 'own' in a specific way, what happens if you end the conversation? Thanks for your thoughts on that, I'm going run the X report now. That's an idea, see you at the meeting later. I understand that Y worked for you when doing this task, but I'm not comfortable deviating from procedure, I have to do Z now, so I'll see you tomorrow. 

I'd classifying it as raising his voice rather than yelling. He's got a belligerent expression on his face while doing it. He's persistent that I do things the way he wants them to be done - like arrange a meeting in person rather than on Zoom, because he wants it that way. Or saying he's not going to do something that I suggest because he doesn't believe it needs to happen.

 

 

 

[Kanin]

20 hours ago, Myra said:

Personally, I would talk to boss/supervisor first to apprise of situation prior to talking to co-worker.  Explain to supervisor that you are planning to talk to co-worker about  your concerns but wanted to give heads-up of situation before you do.  That way, in case it escalates your boss has your back.

 

I did this yesterday. I'm going to approach my coworker and discuss the behavior before asking for backup from admin.

[Kanin]

11 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I’ve learned to be an impassive observer. It’s come in handy at work. Every now and then someone comes in and it’s clear that bullying is a tactic that works for them. It’s super interesting to watch them squirm and panic and escalate when the bullying doesn’t work. They think bluster will either change a policy or gain them special treatment. It’s pretty clear this has worked for them in the past but there’s really nothing they can change by being nasty. 

Yes, this! Clearly this behavior has gotten them what they wanted in the past. It's an open secret that the rest of us are over it - but I don't know if anyone's addressed his behavior to his face. I've only been working here for a few years, compared to some people who have been here 15-20+ years.

[Kanin]

9 hours ago, Hannah said:

I just sat and stared at him as if I was watching the spectacle of the century. Once he was done, I continued giving him a quizzical look, waited at least 5 seconds and then said, "as I was saying..".  He never yelled where I was nearby again.

Ha! Love that.

[Kanin]

9 hours ago, Hannah said:

If he's doing this to the children, I would escalate.

Well, yes. I'm going to talk first, then escalate. 

[Kanin]

18 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

 Let your supervisor know - let HR know . . . . . .This is a serious problem.  I had a boss who literally would rather keep the bully, and fired/drove to quit everyone who complained about the bully.   Only when a supervisor (who outranked the bully's supervisor) from another dept who had to deal with all the people quitting because of the bully, was the bully gone.  That day.

Oh wow. Was the boss a friend of the bully?

[EKS]

What is the difference between a bully and a jerk?

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Kanin said:

Oh wow. Was the boss a friend of the bully?

friendly, but didn't socialize outside of work.

eta: and according to the definitions of "jerk vs bully" - she was a bully.

Edited February 16 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

What is the difference between a bully and a jerk?

Bully/Jerk -- It's Not the Same | HuffPost Life

 

Being a cretin (re: jerk) is not the same thing as being a bully. Using strength and/or power to intentionally harm or intimidate someone is being a bully.

[Murphy101]

9 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Bully/Jerk -- It's Not the Same | HuffPost Life

 

Being a cretin (re: jerk) is not the same thing as being a bully. Using strength and/or power to intentionally harm or intimidate someone is being a bully.

This. A bully is targeted. A jerk is going about their business being a jerk like always. 

[Kanin]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

What is the difference between a bully and a jerk?

Good question, maybe he's just a jerk. 

[gardenmom5]

44 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

This. A bully is targeted. A jerk is going about their business being a jerk like always. 

they don't even have to be aware they are targeting someone, it can be unconscious targeting.  They are usually careful not to do it in front of someone who can hold them accountable.  Like their boss.  (I know the profile the work bully was targeting.)
jerks are jerks and have no self-awareness they're being a jerk to control doing it in front of other people.  or not.

[Clarita]

5 hours ago, Kanin said:

I'd classifying it as raising his voice rather than yelling. He's got a belligerent expression on his face while doing it. He's persistent that I do things the way he wants them to be done - like arrange a meeting in person rather than on Zoom, because he wants it that way. Or saying he's not going to do something that I suggest because he doesn't believe it needs to happen.

What happens if you disagree? 

I'd say this if by company hierarchy and operations he is the last say in these matters then he is just always going to get his way in those circumstances because he would even if he didn't raise his voice at all. If hierarchy-wise he is not in the position to actually make the final decision and say you are you can just say "Hmm. but this is what we are doing, end of discussion."

Sometimes a simple "Stop being a Jerk, Bob." works, too. 

[Scarlett]

I worked with an erratic bully/jerk/psycho for a couple of years. 

I almost quit several times but did not because of the owner. 
 

He would go from pleasant to psycho rapidly for  no valid reason. I could see his face turn like a mask slipped off 

[Jaybee]

@Kanin, how did he react to confronting him?

[Kanin]

17 hours ago, Jaybee said:

@Kanin, how did he react to confronting him?

Thank you for asking! It's school vacation so I'm trying to think of what to say. 

**Please don't quote, I should probably delete this later**

I don't care what he says when it's just me, or when he has a complaint that he airs in a staff meeting. I just explain the reasoning behind whatever it is and move on. An example of something that really ticks him off is when I schedule meetings on Friday afternoons. He's complained about that in a private conversation with just me, in an email to me AND everyone on the team AND the principal, and AGAIN in the hallway with another teacher present. The third time it happened I just said, "Gee, I heard you the FIRST TWO TIMES!" The other coworker laughed. I mean, really... it's so minor and dumb. Nobody wants to meet on Fridays which is why Fridays are available for meeting! I'm not a magical wizard that can convene the 8 people required BY LAW on the specific day HE prefers. 

The thing I object to most is when he comes to my room (or asks me to step out in the hall with him and a student), then lays into the student, going on and on about whatever the kid supposedly did wrong (didn't turn in homework, told their parent it was done but it wasn't, etc). I'm always standing there, unprepared, and it must seem to the student as if I'm okay with what's going on. I'm usually in agreement about what the kid did, but the approach is totally inappropriate. The last time it happened I tried to head him off, but he said, "Not now, Mrs. Kanin!"

I'm doubting myself, though, after someone here asked if he was actually yelling or just a guy that has a loud voice. He has a loud voice, and isn't yelling, but even I feel intimidated by it. However... I might be particularly sensitive to raising voices - I've been told that.

When kids cry when he leaves the room, and I'm left with them crying, it's not right.... right? I don't want to teach middle schoolers that "some people are just like that" and they have to let it go. A student did tell me that that teacher doesn't respect me and treats me like one of the students. Ouch! 

I went to the principal and offered to talk to this guy for me. I said I'd rather talk to him on my own first. 

I'm drawing a blank on what to do, though. I should probably prepare for a variety of responses but honestly I feel major anxiety when I even think about planning for this. Ugh. I don't know if anyone has asked him to soften his tone before. All of the people I could ask about the history are bound to talk about it with other people, so I don't want to even bring it up. 

**Please don't quote**

[Kanin]

Oh, and the kicker is, after he went on and on to the last kid, he said, "You know I'm here to help you, right? You need to come talk to me when you don't understand assignments so I can clear things up for you."

Uhhhh.... NO! There is absolutely NO WAY any of the students are going to him for help because they're all terrified of getting yelled at (their words). The A+, quiet, sit-in-their-seats-with-no-problems kids can, because they never get reamed out, but my ADHD students with other LDs are never, ever going to do that. 

[Scarlett]

He has like.y been told before he is too loud. Or……maybe not. But either way I would address it with him privately along the lines of, ‘I am wondering if you realize how your volume, and facial expressions affect others.’   (Allow him to answer and be kind and nod along)   Whatever he says you can then say ‘ I can speak for myself and the students who have confided in me that kind of treatment is not helpful and many people can’t listen to your real message when you come across as aggressive and loud’.  

[Jaybee]

1 hour ago, Kanin said:

Oh, and the kicker is, after he went on and on to the last kid, he said, "You know I'm here to help you, right? You need to come talk to me when you don't understand assignments so I can clear things up for you."

Uhhhh.... NO! There is absolutely NO WAY any of the students are going to him for help because they're all terrified of getting yelled at (their words). The A+, quiet, sit-in-their-seats-with-no-problems kids can, because they never get reamed out, but my ADHD students with other LDs are never, ever going to do that. 

Of course they won't! Even the A+ ones probably wouldn't, because he has proven he is not a safe person. It reminds me a little of the dad of a friend I had growing up. When his oldest dd got pregnant before she was married, he was shocked when he found out that she was afraid to tell him. He seemed to have no idea of how scary he was with his demeanor and loud gruff voice. We were all scared of him!

[Kanin]

45 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

He has like.y been told before he is too loud. Or……maybe not. But either way I would address it with him privately along the lines of, ‘I am wondering if you realize how your volume, and facial expressions affect others.’   (Allow him to answer and be kind and nod along)   Whatever he says you can then say ‘ I can speak for myself and the students who have confided in me that kind of treatment is not helpful and many people can’t listen to your real message when you come across as aggressive and loud’.  

Thank you, I love how you phrased this.

[Kanin]

Just now, Jaybee said:

He seemed to have no idea of how scary he was with his demeanor and loud gruff voice. We were all scared of him!

Well, that's one reason why I'm not ready to condemn him fully... perhaps he doesn't understand how he comes across.

It SEEMS like he does, and like he uses his tone/volume on purpose, but maybe not. 

[Carol in Cal.]

Possible ‘in the moment’ responses (said very calmly):

”Don’t you think you’re overreacting?”

”There is no need to yell.”

”Do not yell at me, ever.”

”You sound very aggressive.”

”We already talked about this.”

”Why not Friday afternoon?  Are you thinking of sneaking out early?”

 

[Kanin]

15 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

”Don’t you think you’re overreacting?”

”There is no need to yell.”

”Do not yell at me, ever.”

”You sound very aggressive.”

”We already talked about this.”

I can do that when it's just me or with adults, but what should I say to cut him off when he's doing that to a student?

I guess, in private, I need to tell him to not ever involve me in conversations with a student if he's going to raise his voice.

[Carol in Cal.]

7 minutes ago, Kanin said:

I can do that when it's just me or with adults, but what should I say to cut him off when he's doing that to a student?

I guess, in private, I need to tell him to not ever involve me in conversations with a student if he's going to raise his voice.

“There is no need to yell.”

I mean, it will enrage him but also divert him, and it will make the student feel supported, which is important in that situation since he is positioning you as supporting him in this behavior.

I think you could also have a private conversation with him in which you say, “The way you yell at these students makes you unapproachable and less respected by them.  I’ll bet you could say the same thing in a straight voice and be a lot more effective.”

 

[Kanin]

19 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I mean, it will enrage him but also divert him, and it will make the student feel supported, which is important in that situation since he is positioning you as supporting him in this behavior.

Oh my. I hadn't considered allowing him to get enraged (with me) while in the presence of a student. 

He'll probably say, "Student, do YOU think I'm yelling?" 

But... good ideas!! Much to think about.

[Clarita]

14 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

“There is no need to yell.”

I mean, it will enrage him but also divert him, and it will make the student feel supported, which is important in that situation since he is positioning you as supporting him in this behavior.

I would add that when you are left with a crying student to say something to the student along the lines of he didn't need to yell and that he was overreacting.

He crossed over from being "just a guy with a loud voice" to being mean when he caused someone to cry.  If one is routinely causing others to cry no matter their intentions they need to do something different.

Although in your shoes I'd let the principal talk to him about his behavior toward students. It's one thing for you (his equal) to talk to him about his behavior towards you, but unless you are his really good friend it'll be "easier" for him to hear how to do his job better from a superior. Places that I've worked for usually say speak to the person directly first if it's grievance against you, if a 3rd party is involved it goes to supervisor.