Living paycheck to paycheck (article)

[Harriet Vane]

Education and choice of career is a major determinant here. I have 9 nieces and nephews plus my own two kids in the range of 19-27 years old. These 11 young adults live in 5 different states, so I really do think what I see in my tiny cohort here is a reflection of a BIG problem, not a region-specific problem.

The ones who are fine in this economy:

Two couples with undergrad degrees and almost done with master's or PhD programs--they are homeowners and totally fine. Single guy with a master's degree and a lucrative job isn't a homeowner but totally could be and his student loans are paid off. One couple with undergrad degrees and lucrative jobs, intending to move on to a master's at some point--they will always be fine and currently house hunting. 

The ones who are terribly poor and struggling:

7 singles left. None of them have a degree. Two are trying hard to finish certifications (cosmetology for one and massage for the other)--they cannot live with parents and have no family support at all. Another young adult is in school with no family support at all. And two others are working full time in minimum wage jobs with no plans for degrees or certifications. 

Two of those singles are working minimum wage jobs but can live with parents, so they are comfortable for the moment. Without their parents, they would be in the same situation as the five singles who are out on their own with no family support are desperately poor. None of them earn enough money to even rent a room, so they are always looking for roommate situations. There are times they don't have enough for groceries. It's very, very hard to even hold two part-time jobs (though all of them do it as much as able) because their employers will not work with competing schedules. (This is VERY common--managers of minimum wage workers expect to OWN their employees. Scheduling is last-minute and constantly changing and often arbitrary. It is very much a culture of the minimum wage world.) Some of the five have health care and some do not. They are working their tails off, always hustling to get side jobs, and desperately poor and desperately unstable. 

 

Conclusions:

It's really a matter of what your career and education choices as well as parental support. The economy is so very, very tight! For many, any misstep can result in homelessness. It's also very, very hard on young adults who have crappy parents--they are trapped in poverty no matter how hard they work. The only way out is if they have chosen a lucrative career and navigated school entirely on their own. Those who are not suited for that highly specific, academic path suffer in abject poverty with very little hope that they will rise, even if they are dependable and willing to work hard. It breaks my heart, because in my own extended family, the seven singles actually work much harder and much longer hours than the ones who are homeowners (or could be), but their prospects are very dim. For them, it really is that bad.

[scholastica]

17 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

Education and choice of career is a major determinant here. I have 9 nieces and nephews plus my own two kids in the range of 19-27 years old. These 11 young adults live in 5 different states, so I really do think what I see in my tiny cohort here is a reflection of a BIG problem, not a region-specific problem.

The ones who are fine in this economy:

Two couples with undergrad degrees and almost done with master's or PhD programs--they are homeowners and totally fine. Single guy with a master's degree and a lucrative job isn't a homeowner but totally could be and his student loans are paid off. One couple with undergrad degrees and lucrative jobs, intending to move on to a master's at some point--they will always be fine and currently house hunting. 

The ones who are terribly poor and struggling:

7 singles left. None of them have a degree. Two are trying hard to finish certifications (cosmetology for one and massage for the other)--they cannot live with parents and have no family support at all. Another young adult is in school with no family support at all. And two others are working full time in minimum wage jobs with no plans for degrees or certifications. 

Two of those singles are working minimum wage jobs but can live with parents, so they are comfortable for the moment. Without their parents, they would be in the same situation as the five singles who are out on their own with no family support are desperately poor. None of them earn enough money to even rent a room, so they are always looking for roommate situations. There are times they don't have enough for groceries. It's very, very hard to even hold two part-time jobs (though all of them do it as much as able) because their employers will not work with competing schedules. (This is VERY common--managers of minimum wage workers expect to OWN their employees. Scheduling is last-minute and constantly changing and often arbitrary. It is very much a culture of the minimum wage world.) Some of the five have health care and some do not. They are working their tails off, always hustling to get side jobs, and desperately poor and desperately unstable. 

 

Conclusions:

It's really a matter of what your career and education choices as well as parental support. The economy is so very, very tight! For many, any misstep can result in homelessness. It's also very, very hard on young adults who have crappy parents--they are trapped in poverty no matter how hard they work. The only way out is if they have chosen a lucrative career and navigated school entirely on their own. Those who are not suited for that highly specific, academic path suffer in abject poverty with very little hope that they will rise, even if they are dependable and willing to work hard. It breaks my heart, because in my own extended family, the seven singles actually work much harder and much longer hours than the ones who are homeowners (or could be), but their prospects are very dim. For them, it really is that bad.

Not loving the post because of the content, but because it crystallizes the problem well. I’m sorry for the struggle your loved ones are dealing with.

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, Harriet Vane said:

Education and choice of career is a major determinant here. I have 9 nieces and nephews plus my own two kids in the range of 19-27 years old. These 11 young adults live in 5 different states, so I really do think what I see in my tiny cohort here is a reflection of a BIG problem, not a region-specific problem.

The ones who are fine in this economy:

Two couples with undergrad degrees and almost done with master's or PhD programs--they are homeowners and totally fine. Single guy with a master's degree and a lucrative job isn't a homeowner but totally could be and his student loans are paid off. One couple with undergrad degrees and lucrative jobs, intending to move on to a master's at some point--they will always be fine and currently house hunting. 

The ones who are terribly poor and struggling:

7 singles left. None of them have a degree. Two are trying hard to finish certifications (cosmetology for one and massage for the other)--they cannot live with parents and have no family support at all. Another young adult is in school with no family support at all. And two others are working full time in minimum wage jobs with no plans for degrees or certifications. 

Two of those singles are working minimum wage jobs but can live with parents, so they are comfortable for the moment. Without their parents, they would be in the same situation as the five singles who are out on their own with no family support are desperately poor. None of them earn enough money to even rent a room, so they are always looking for roommate situations. There are times they don't have enough for groceries. It's very, very hard to even hold two part-time jobs (though all of them do it as much as able) because their employers will not work with competing schedules. (This is VERY common--managers of minimum wage workers expect to OWN their employees. Scheduling is last-minute and constantly changing and often arbitrary. It is very much a culture of the minimum wage world.) Some of the five have health care and some do not. They are working their tails off, always hustling to get side jobs, and desperately poor and desperately unstable. 

 

Conclusions:

It's really a matter of what your career and education choices as well as parental support. The economy is so very, very tight! For many, any misstep can result in homelessness. It's also very, very hard on young adults who have crappy parents--they are trapped in poverty no matter how hard they work. The only way out is if they have chosen a lucrative career and navigated school entirely on their own. Those who are not suited for that highly specific, academic path suffer in abject poverty with very little hope that they will rise, even if they are dependable and willing to work hard. It breaks my heart, because in my own extended family, the seven singles actually work much harder and much longer hours than the ones who are homeowners (or could be), but their prospects are very dim. For them, it really is that bad.

2 related things jump out me.  

Your little sample size shows that education is crucial. Not just education, but college.  The comfortable ones went to college.  Which is a huge problem when the cost of college is growing exponentially.  That either leaves people with very little opportunity or in debt.  
 

Which also reminds me of the current push to just have kids forgo college.    That’s setting up a lot of young people to really struggle.  I know it’s caused mostly by fear of the cost, and other social reasons but it worries me.  I know parents pushing that are well meaning, but man does it make life harder.  

[teachermom2834]

18 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

2 related things jump out me.  

Your little sample size shows that education is crucial. Not just education, but college.  The comfortable ones went to college.  Which is a huge problem when the cost of college is growing exponentially.  That either leaves people with very little opportunity or in debt.  
 

Which also reminds me of the current push to just have kids forgo college.    That’s setting up a lot of young people to really struggle.  I know it’s caused mostly by fear of the cost, and other social reasons but it worries me.  I know parents pushing that are well meaning, but man does it make life harder.  

I am seeing such an anti-college push around me. I get it. College isn't for everyone. There are other options. Loads of debt is bad. My kids who went to college are doing fine. Even with moderate student loan debt they are ok. 

One thing that gets me upset is that people who are anti-college aren't pushing going to trade school or learning a valuable skill. They are just anti-college without any further plan instead. 

I get it. College isn't a guarantee of anything. Major matters. How much you spend on college matters. How you go about pursuing your goals matters. But just the throwing college education baby out with the student loan debt crisis bathwater is making me crazy. 

 

 

Edited January 21 by teachermom2834

[prairiewindmomma]

Even if you end up in a trade, the multi-year apprenticeship puts you in a budget bind. Ds’s expected 4 year apprenticeship hourly salary is about a chick-fil-a worker’s here  = needs at least three reliable roommates to make rent in a 2 bedroom apartment. 

[Ausmumof3]

3 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Even if you end up in a trade, the multi-year apprenticeship puts you in a budget bind. Ds’s expected 4 year apprenticeship hourly salary is about a chick-fil-a worker’s here  = needs at least three reliable roommates to make rent in a 2 bedroom apartment. 

Typically when dh and I were younger kids in trades would leave and start at the end of Y10 or sometimes even Y9 so the living on small income was done by 20. Now many complete Y12 (and employers sometimes expect it) meaning they’re starting at 18/19. 
 

Im not sure this delayed adulthood is good for our teens 

[Harriet Vane]

5 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

2 related things jump out me.  

Your little sample size shows that education is crucial. Not just education, but college.  The comfortable ones went to college.  Which is a huge problem when the cost of college is growing exponentially.  That either leaves people with very little opportunity or in debt.  
 

Which also reminds me of the current push to just have kids forgo college.    That’s setting up a lot of young people to really struggle.  I know it’s caused mostly by fear of the cost, and other social reasons but it worries me.  I know parents pushing that are well meaning, but man does it make life harder.  

The cost is a huge problem, yes. The other huge problem is that college just isn’t an option for some for a whole myriad of non-financial reasons. 

I really feel that anyone who is working hard with competence and reliability should be able to have a place to live, basic health care, and food on the table. Period. End of story. 

[prairiewindmomma]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Typically when dh and I were younger kids in trades would leave and start at the end of Y10 or sometimes even Y9 so the living on small income was done by 20. Now many complete Y12 (and employers sometimes expect it) meaning they’re starting at 18/19. 
 

Im not sure this delayed adulthood is good for our teens 

It’s required to be 18 and to complete either high school or get a GED and to take certain maths courses to get an apprenticeship here. It’s not even an option to not do that to meet basic qualifications for the application process.

[Ausmumof3]

47 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

It’s required to be 18 and to complete either high school or get a GED and to take certain maths courses to get an apprenticeship here. It’s not even an option to not do that to meet basic qualifications for the application process.

Oh that’s different. Kids can leave after age 15 but they have to be going into some form of further education like apprenticeship or tafe etc. 

[Heartstrings]

3 hours ago, Harriet Vane said:

The cost is a huge problem, yes. The other huge problem is that college just isn’t an option for some for a whole myriad of non-financial reasons. 

I really feel that anyone who is working hard with competence and reliability should be able to have a place to live, basic health care, and food on the table. Period. End of story. 

Yes, all too often those doing the hardest labor get paid the least for it.  Daycare providers, maids, strawberry pickers.  

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Oh that’s different. Kids can leave after age 15 but they have to be going into some form of further education like apprenticeship or tafe etc. 

In a lot of states kids can legally drop out of high school at 16 but they don’t have many paths available to them.  We’d have a lot less trouble in our high school if the ones who didn’t want to be there were allowed an actual path towards a real possible future elsewhere.   Instead they are just warehoused for 4 or 5 extra years and coincidentally they act just like you’d expect prisoners to act.  We lack a real apprenticeship path in this country and it causes so many problems in so many areas. 

[Carrie12345]

7 hours ago, Harriet Vane said:

The cost is a huge problem, yes. The other huge problem is that college just isn’t an option for some for a whole myriad of non-financial reasons. 

I really feel that anyone who is working hard with competence and reliability should be able to have a place to live, basic health care, and food on the table. Period. End of story. 

One of the big non-(directly)-financial reasons that needs to be recognized is that our society cannot exist without people in non-degreed roles. We have to have farm laborers, shelf stockers, road crews, custodial staff, customer service, trash collectors, shipping staff, and on and on and on. We can’t go on the way we expect to go on without those important (and hard work) jobs being filled. And yes, they’re worthy of dignified existences!

[Carrie12345]

On 1/18/2024 at 9:32 PM, Catwoman said:

Perhaps, but my main takeaway is that the lack of common sense is astounding.

The NIMBYism is only going to get a lot worse if people insist that it's a great idea for people's home values to decrease. And the people who will be hurt the most by a plan like that, will be the newer, younger home buyers, who paid a lot more for their homes than the people who bought their homes 50 years ago. They are not going to agree to a plan that would intentionally lower their own home values.

I’m on a sort of mini vacation right now, so my brain isn’t in full gear and I don’t know if I can accurately communicate what I’ve got right now, but I’m gonna try.

Home value is largely (not entirely) made up by group sentiment. Individuals make up groups. Individuals can take control over their personal sentiment. They should also take responsibility for the inherent risks of investment, including real estate. No one is “owed” a high property value.

My area is overwhelmingly upset about a giant warehouse and large truck stop tearing down tons of acreage in our rural space because we’re attached to the sentiment of rural living AND figure it can lower property value.

The bottom line reality is that our zoning map has ALWAYS designated the main road as commercial. (Okay, at least since the 80s.) It’s just never drawn interest before now. It sucks, but a truly investment-minded person probably should have considered that in their risk analysis. Or get over it.

Changes in zoning, on the other hand, are hard to fight, but have procedures for fighting. However, at least where I am, municipalities are required to include nearly all types of zoning at certain percentages in their zoning plan. Spot zoning is illegal. Another aspect of risk analysis.

I’m here in Atlanta, a couple days in the city and a couple just OTP, and they are building like ants on meth! While that would not be compatible with the existing environment in my area, building like sober ants would be beneficial to our tax base and to society. Might it have some effect on my home value? Yeah. Is my home value the end all, be all of my place in this world? No. Maybe because I didn’t ignore the risks of my investment, or maybe because I’m not more important than any other human.

That said, of course I have a degree of NIMBY in myself. My backyard is LITERALLY “preserved” forest at the moment. But not guaranteed eternally. Which was part of the risk analysis I made. And, if it ever comes to it, I will fight tooth and nail for affordable housing over warehousing or $600k ticky tacky on postage sized lots.

 

[KSera]

10 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

Yes, all too often those doing the hardest labor get paid the least for it.  Daycare providers, maids, strawberry pickers.  

Absolutely. All the while, people living comfortably on high wages proclaim that they deserve it because they “worked hard for it.” No doubt many of those people have worked hard, but I don’t know in what way they feel they have worked harder than lots of other people working low wage, manual labor jobs. The minimum wage jobs my young adults have held are way less pleasant than my husband’s job that earns a comfortable living, or my own prior jobs. The physical jobs may take a lot less education and brain power, but they’re much less enjoyable to do day in and day out than a large percentage of jobs that pay more. People expect and want those services, but don’t see why the people doing them should be paid a living wage. I’d actually be in favor of many of those low wage positions in high income areas going on strike for a while. Maybe people would think a little bit more about how much those services are actually worth to them. (But of course, that’s not possible because low wage earners can’t afford to take time off from working, as they really are living paycheck to paycheck.) 

[mum]

On 1/20/2024 at 3:59 PM, Heartstrings said:

2 related things jump out me.  

Your little sample size shows that education is crucial. Not just education, but college.  The comfortable ones went to college.  Which is a huge problem when the cost of college is growing exponentially.  That either leaves people with very little opportunity or in debt.  
 

Which also reminds me of the current push to just have kids forgo college.    That’s setting up a lot of young people to really struggle.  I know it’s caused mostly by fear of the cost, and other social reasons but it worries me.  I know parents pushing that are well meaning, but man does it make life harder.  

I am ALL for college. But it isn't for everyone. I think the takeaway from the sample of 11 is that one needs SOME qualifications. Welding is not 'college' but a welder makes good money. One could enlist in the military and get paid enough to live, and learn a skill at the same time.  There are federal jobs like the post office that offer stability, advancement and a pension. Those jobs can support a family (I have immediate family in all 3).

If one has NO qualifications then life will probably be hard and finances will be tight-to-terrible.  But college isn't the only answer, in my opinion and experience. 

[Brittany1116]

1 hour ago, mum said:

I am ALL for college. But it isn't for everyone. I think the takeaway from the sample of 11 is that one needs SOME qualifications. Welding is not 'college' but a welder makes good money. One could enlist in the military and get paid enough to live, and learn a skill at the same time.  There are federal jobs like the post office that offer stability, advancement and a pension. Those jobs can support a family (I have immediate family in all 3).

If one has NO qualifications then life will probably be hard and finances will be tight-to-terrible.  But college isn't the only answer, in my opinion and experience. 

A family member who travel welds makes more money than any of his siblings, including the sibling with a Master's working at a high position in their healthcare field. 

[SHP]

4 hours ago, mum said:

I am ALL for college. But it isn't for everyone. I think the takeaway from the sample of 11 is that one needs SOME qualifications. Welding is not 'college' but a welder makes good money. One could enlist in the military and get paid enough to live, and learn a skill at the same time.  There are federal jobs like the post office that offer stability, advancement and a pension. Those jobs can support a family (I have immediate family in all 3).

If one has NO qualifications then life will probably be hard and finances will be tight-to-terrible.  But college isn't the only answer, in my opinion and experience. 

Welding is college. At least here. I mentioned in the retirement thread that I cannot wait to be 65 to get all the free classes. Welding is on my list. So is motorcycle maintenance, and basically everything else. One can learn in high school, if it is offered, but it frequently isn't. One can pay for an overpriced private Welding school, but it is still a type or schooling. Even an apprenticeship is working and going to school and apprenticeships are not easy to get, at least not here. 

[frogger]

On 1/20/2024 at 3:07 PM, teachermom2834 said:

I am seeing such an anti-college push around me. I get it. College isn't for everyone. There are other options. Loads of debt is bad. My kids who went to college are doing fine. Even with moderate student loan debt they are ok. 

One thing that gets me upset is that people who are anti-college aren't pushing going to trade school or learning a valuable skill. They are just anti-college without any further plan instead. 

I get it. College isn't a guarantee of anything. Major matters. How much you spend on college matters. How you go about pursuing your goals matters. 

 

 

I do see college graduates struggle. I also have a frustration with the fact that college isn't neccessary for many jobs that require it. That is changing somewhat with the tight labor market. There are also jobs that require masters and still pay low wages! How do they find workers for such things? Your heart really has to be into it. 

But housing and healthcare are the monsters that squash the low wage workers. 

But yes, pursuing a goal is key. Trades, some of the allied health professions that just require certifications, technicians. Many things require learning but not a full degree. Some things you can test out of. 

 

[frogger]

1 hour ago, SHP said:

Welding is college. At least here. I mentioned in the retirement thread that I cannot wait to be 65 to get all the free classes. Welding is on my list. So is motorcycle maintenance, and basically everything else. One can learn in high school, if it is offered, but it frequently isn't. One can pay for an overpriced private Welding school, but it is still a type or schooling. Even an apprenticeship is working and going to school and apprenticeships are not easy to get, at least not here. 

You can get certified without school. It is performance based rather than hours in a classroom based. 

https://www.aws.org/Certification-and-Education/Professional-Certification/Certified-Welder-Program/?step=1

[Hannah]

4 hours ago, Brittany1116 said:

A family member who travel welds makes more money than any of his siblings, including the sibling with a Master's working at a high position in their healthcare field. 

Non Destructive Testing of materials is also a good field if you're prepared to travel. There are different specialisations such as weld testing, allow castings, aeronautics, etc.  One can take courses here for just one specialisation and grow from there, or also diploma courses that cover more than one testing specialisation.

[SKL]

On 1/20/2024 at 4:19 PM, Harriet Vane said:

Education and choice of career is a major determinant here. I have 9 nieces and nephews plus my own two kids in the range of 19-27 years old. These 11 young adults live in 5 different states, so I really do think what I see in my tiny cohort here is a reflection of a BIG problem, not a region-specific problem.

The ones who are fine in this economy:

Two couples with undergrad degrees and almost done with master's or PhD programs--they are homeowners and totally fine. Single guy with a master's degree and a lucrative job isn't a homeowner but totally could be and his student loans are paid off. One couple with undergrad degrees and lucrative jobs, intending to move on to a master's at some point--they will always be fine and currently house hunting. 

The ones who are terribly poor and struggling:

7 singles left. None of them have a degree. Two are trying hard to finish certifications (cosmetology for one and massage for the other)--they cannot live with parents and have no family support at all. Another young adult is in school with no family support at all. And two others are working full time in minimum wage jobs with no plans for degrees or certifications. 

Two of those singles are working minimum wage jobs but can live with parents, so they are comfortable for the moment. Without their parents, they would be in the same situation as the five singles who are out on their own with no family support are desperately poor. None of them earn enough money to even rent a room, so they are always looking for roommate situations. There are times they don't have enough for groceries. It's very, very hard to even hold two part-time jobs (though all of them do it as much as able) because their employers will not work with competing schedules. (This is VERY common--managers of minimum wage workers expect to OWN their employees. Scheduling is last-minute and constantly changing and often arbitrary. It is very much a culture of the minimum wage world.) Some of the five have health care and some do not. They are working their tails off, always hustling to get side jobs, and desperately poor and desperately unstable.

Since everyone's discussing the education side of this sample, I want to bring up another thing I notice.

The "couples" in your sample seem to all be doing well.  Marriage or long-term commitment seems to correlate with success.  Why do we think that is?

I assume that, for one, it's the fact that they share resources and have someone to fall back on.  Besides that, maybe they are more focused on the future / long-term goals in their day to day life.  Maybe they have a better ability to form relationships, which is reflected not only at home but also in the workplace and wherever they got educated.

Education is so important, but the ability to get educated depends in part on the ability to get along with people, and the ability to focus on long-term goals.

I am sorry that those struggling singles can't get any help at all from their parents.

As parents, I think we need to plan on being there for our kids in whatever ways they really need us.  Like when we teach them how to ride a bike, we're neither leaving them on their own nor doing everything for them.

For kids who don't have functional parents, I hope the school system or someone can point these youth to organizations designed to help that demographic.  I learned recently that our state has a lot of services available for foster youth in transition, for example, but people need to know these resources exist.  There are internships etc. that are open only to kids with limited resources.  And a kid who really has no resources should be able to get a lot of educational aid that they don't have to pay back.  But that doesn't help if the kid doesn't have the skills to succeed in school.

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

The "couples" in your sample seem to all be doing well.  Marriage or long-term commitment seems to correlate with success.  Why do we think that is?

I assume that, for one, it's the fact that they share resources and have someone to fall back on.  Besides that, maybe they are more focused on the future / long-term goals in their day to day life.  Maybe they have a better ability to form relationships, which is reflected not only at home but also in the workplace and wherever they got educated.

Good point, and I agree it's two-fold:

1. Resource sharing is a huge help, especially when it comes to housing and childcare. Here's where being a couple *directly* confers a material advantage, and it's why single moms are so often in poverty. 

2. There is a big overlap in the skills needed to form successful long-term relationships and and those to be successful in the workplace. Here, being part of a stable couple is an indicator for possessing a certain skillset that helps function in the world. 

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

The "couples" in your sample seem to all be doing well.  Marriage or long-term commitment seems to correlate with success.  Why do we think that is?

I assume that, for one, it's the fact that they share resources and have someone to fall back on.  Besides that, maybe they are more focused on the future / long-term goals in their day to day life.  Maybe they have a better ability to form relationships, which is reflected not only at home but also in the workplace and wherever they got educated.

There has been a societal shift away from marriage as the cornerstone of building a life and more to marriage being the capstone, something that should only happen once you are established and stable and I'm not sure it's a good shift, for this reason.  Marriage seems to help create stability, as you've pointed out, but there is such a cultural push that says you need to be stable and secure first.  I

I have the oldest children in my friend group, I'm the first one with an adult child, and recently I've been talking to everyone about the fact that our kids might need to stay living at home longer than we did.  Everyone seems to have the idea that this is fine, but that married young adults MUST leave home.  If you still live at home you shouldn't be married seems to be the prevailing idea.  I'm not entirely sure that is going to be feasible or advisable for everyone.  I don't like the idea of a married couple living in my house, but I'm wrapping my mind around the idea that it might end up being necessary to give new little families a good start.  

[Harriet Vane]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Since everyone's discussing the education side of this sample, I want to bring up another thing I notice.

The "couples" in your sample seem to all be doing well.  Marriage or long-term commitment seems to correlate with success.  Why do we think that is?

I assume that, for one, it's the fact that they share resources and have someone to fall back on.  Besides that, maybe they are more focused on the future / long-term goals in their day to day life.  Maybe they have a better ability to form relationships, which is reflected not only at home but also in the workplace and wherever they got educated.

Education is so important, but the ability to get educated depends in part on the ability to get along with people, and the ability to focus on long-term goals.

I am sorry that those struggling singles can't get any help at all from their parents.

As parents, I think we need to plan on being there for our kids in whatever ways they really need us.  Like when we teach them how to ride a bike, we're neither leaving them on their own nor doing everything for them.

For kids who don't have functional parents, I hope the school system or someone can point these youth to organizations designed to help that demographic.  I learned recently that our state has a lot of services available for foster youth in transition, for example, but people need to know these resources exist.  There are internships etc. that are open only to kids with limited resources.  And a kid who really has no resources should be able to get a lot of educational aid that they don't have to pay back.  But that doesn't help if the kid doesn't have the skills to succeed in school.

Each couple I mentioned would still have the capacity for home ownership as singles. Their shared resources gives them a super-comfortable life, but each of them would live quite comfortably on a single income as well. It’s because their jobs pay well and because all but one couple have paid off their student loans either by cleverly taking advantage of helpful resources along the way (resources that they had to both find and figure out how to access/use—not an easy task) or through significant parental commitment to higher education. 

My 7 without college ARE focused on long-term goals, some more than others. But each one does actually have a plan that they are trying hard to do. The issue is that they are continually sabotaged by factors beyond their control—arbitrary scheduling difficulties with jobs, lack of insurance, unreliable cars (the only type they can afford), and housing instability due to poverty. It is ALWAYS two steps forward, one step back. 

[regentrude]

44 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

There has been a societal shift away from marriage as the cornerstone of building a life and more to marriage being the capstone, something that should only happen once you are established and stable and I'm not sure it's a good shift, for this reason.  Marriage seems to help create stability, as you've pointed out, but there is such a cultural push that says you need to be stable and secure first.  I

I have the oldest children in my friend group, I'm the first one with an adult child, and recently I've been talking to everyone about the fact that our kids might need to stay living at home longer than we did.  Everyone seems to have the idea that this is fine, but that married young adults MUST leave home.  If you still live at home you shouldn't be married seems to be the prevailing idea.  I'm not entirely sure that is going to be feasible or advisable for everyone.  I don't like the idea of a married couple living in my house, but I'm wrapping my mind around the idea that it might end up being necessary to give new little families a good start.  

Two thoughts:

1. Marriage is no longer the only societally accepted form of long-term partnership. Many of the younger people who aren't married are still in long-term committed relationships.

2. Actually, in amny places historically, financial independence was often a *requirement* for a marriage license. You couldn't marry if you didn't have the means to support a family.

[Heartstrings]

26 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Two thoughts:

1. Marriage is no longer the only societally accepted form of long-term partnership. Many of the younger people who aren't married are still in long-term committed relationships.

2. Actually, in amny places historically, financial independence was often a *requirement* for a marriage license. You couldn't marry if you didn't have the means to support a family.

I think the standards by which someone is judged as ready or stable are different now.   It’s not enough to be able to rent a tiny place together and be starting in a career or wrapping up an education, parents and society push that you need to be able to buy a home at the same time as the wedding, be several years into a career, have tons of money in the bank, all on your own first .  I don’t see it as coming from the young people themselves, it’s pushed on them from parents and just society.   You don’t get married (or partnered) until you are established instead of establishing life together.   Which that works fine for some people it does mean that some others aren’t benefiting from the settling down aspect of marriage, or committed partnering , the two are better than one mind set.  

I also see young people being hurt financially  from the semi committed, but not really, aspect of partnering without marriage. Marriage comes with certain legal protections that aren’t present in a non-marriage partnering and often the partnering of young people I’m seeing is much more casual rather than committed.  It looks committed rather quickly but ends just as quickly, often leaving one partner way worse off.  Lots of people “aren’t ready to get married” but entangle their money as if they are in an ill considered way that ends up hurting one partner while benefiting the other.

   I’m not really talking about the long term committed partnerships, carefully chosen instead of marriage, but about the fast, casual not really committed relationships that young people often end up in.   I think these fast casual relationships occur partly due to pressure not to consider marriage until much later.  It plays into kind of the prolonged adolescence that a few seem to carry through their 20s.   They still feel and act like children at 25 instead of focusing on long term goals.   I’ve heard people speak of getting married at 27 as practically being a child marriage.  

Edited January 22 by Heartstrings

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

I have the oldest children in my friend group, I'm the first one with an adult child, and recently I've been talking to everyone about the fact that our kids might need to stay living at home longer than we did. 

Out of curiosity, how old were you, and people of your generation that you know, when you were able to rent or buy a nice place and move out and be independent (without racking up debt)?

[frogger]

35 minutes ago, SKL said:

Out of curiosity, how old were you, and people of your generation that you know, when you were able to rent or buy a nice place and move out and be independent (without racking up debt)?

I might live in an outlier family but honestly my siblings and I were all all out before 18. My friends who went to college had more help from parents though. 

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Out of curiosity, how old were you, and people of your generation that you know, when you were able to rent or buy a nice place and move out and be independent (without racking up debt)?

I moved out 5 months after high school graduation with a decent office job and a child of my own, so I had daycare expenses but no car payments. Baby daddy was around for a few months then gone and I was on my own.   
Daycare was around $100 a week or so, my first place was $300 and my second on my own was $500.  Groceries were $50 a week and I ate out once a week, every Sunday after grocery shopping I bought 2 Happy Meals for lunch.  That was after we got a washer and dryer, before that it was weekly Happy Meals at the laundromat.   I think I made $8.50 to around $10 during that time period.  When I got up to $10 plus I added lunch out with the other office girls on Friday to the budget.
(edited to add: once I was on my own I was getting no government assistance, in case that was a question with a baby at 18.  At $8.50 an hour with only 1 child I never qualified for any assistance)  

Then I met, dated and married my husband.  We were married and had bought a house before I turned 22, with a new baby 1 year later.  
 

Out of my immediate friends current ages 30-45, 2 moved out to college dorms at 18 then on their own or with new husbands right after, 1 moved out on her own at 18 while starting college, 1 moved in with her new husband at 18.  I can’t think of anyone who stayed home past either 18 or 19 unless they were traditional college students living in dorms then moving out on their right after, with maybe a brief stint back home right after graduation.  
 
I think we all married and owned homes by 22 or 23.   

Edited January 22 by Heartstrings

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

I moved out 5 months after high school graduation with a decent office job and a child of my own, so I had daycare expenses but no car payments. Baby daddy was around for a few months then gone and I was on my own.   
Daycare was around $100 a week or so, my first place was $300 and my second on my own was $500.  Groceries were $50 a week and I ate out once a week, every Sunday after grocery shopping I bought 2 Happy Meals for lunch.  That was after we got a washer and dryer, before that it was weekly Happy Meals at the laundromat.   I think I made $8.50 to around $10 during that time period.  When I got up to $10 plus I added lunch out with the other office girls on Friday to the budget.
(edited to add: once I was on my own I was getting no government assistance, in case that was a question with a baby at 18.  At $8.50 an hour with only 1 child I never qualified for any assistance)  

Then I met, dated and married my husband.  We were married and had bought a house before I turned 22, with a new baby 1 year later.  
 

Out of my immediate friends current ages 30-45, 2 moved out to college dorms at 18 then on their own or with new husbands right after, 1 moved out on her own at 18 while starting college, 1 moved in with her new husband at 18.  I can’t think of anyone who stayed home past either 18 or 19 unless they were traditional college students living in dorms then moving out on their right after, with maybe a brief stint back home right after graduation.  
 
I think we all married and owned homes by 22 or 23.   

That's cool that you got a good, full-time office job just out of high school.  I think that would be hard to get now, unless the young person knew the owners.

For those going to college, since you consider that independence, how were they paying for tuition and living expenses?

[Heartstrings]

14 minutes ago, SKL said:

For those going to college, since you consider that independence, how were they paying for tuition and living expenses?

If I remember correctly one was on a full scholarship and worked part-time for extras and one's parents were able to pay for the education out of savings and I think she also worked part-time for extras.   I think living in dorms is a quasi-independence.  Not fully independent, but not quite the same as living at home either. I think my point there was that they were able to move out fully right after college graduation and buy a house within a year or two.  We do live in a low cost of living area though, which makes some things easier.  

I know that my office job was the most professional job that any of us had at 18.  Of the two that moved out directly both worked retail, and the married one's spouse had an entry-level office job similar to the one I had. 

[mum]

12 hours ago, SHP said:

Welding is college. At least here. I mentioned in the retirement thread that I cannot wait to be 65 to get all the free classes. Welding is on my list. So is motorcycle maintenance, and basically everything else. One can learn in high school, if it is offered, but it frequently isn't. One can pay for an overpriced private Welding school, but it is still a type or schooling. Even an apprenticeship is working and going to school and apprenticeships are not easy to get, at least not here. 

I should have clarified, college=4 year degree for me in this discussion. Things like welding are vocational paths. 

I see too many with college degrees with a mountain of debt and no specific qualifications, bouncing from one job to another. This isn't a general statement, this is specific people in my direct circle. 

My soapbox about college is that hardly anyone NEEDS to go to an expensive college. Many want to and confuse the want with need. In-state public college is in reach for those for whom  4 year college is the correct academic fit. Choice about college is the first big financial decision point, followed by how much car to buy and how much house to buy. It's a good thing to present the college decision in this context. Overextending financially is mostly not worth it for any of these things. 

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, mum said:

My soapbox about college is that hardly anyone NEEDS to go to an expensive college. Many want to and confuse the want with need. In-state public college is in reach for those for whom  4 year college is the correct academic fit.

I'm going to disagree a bit here.  For kids in the middle, who don't qualify for grants but whose parents arent able to help much, even in state public can be out of reach.  Our oldest is capped at $5000 a year in student loans due to parental income, but we're not able to help as much as our income makes it seem.  We were low income until the past 5 years or so when my husband got a bachelors and then a masters. That wasn't enough time to save up a lot of money and paying back loans now means that we can't cash flow thousands a semester.  $5000 a year in loans plus what can be earned at minimum wage puts even "affordable" state colleges out of reach.  Luckily we live near a satellite campus that is truly inexpensive and kiddo can live at home.  

[KSera]

5 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I think we all married and owned homes by 22 or 23.   

I expect there are strong regional variations in this. Being married by that age was pretty unusual among people I knew, and home ownership was unknown of for those ages. 

Edited January 22 by KSera

[SKL]

8 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

If I remember correctly one was on a full scholarship and worked part-time for extras and one's parents were able to pay for the education out of savings and I think she also worked part-time for extras.   I think living in dorms is a quasi-independence.  Not fully independent, but not quite the same as living at home either. I think my point there was that they were able to move out fully right after college graduation and buy a house within a year or two.  We do live in a low cost of living area though, which makes some things easier. 

OK I was really going for financial independence, which living on a college scholarship or family college fund isn't, in my opinion.  So in general, even when you were a young adult, it wasn't like everyone in that age group had the ability to buy a house, on their own without any sharing or family help, by age 22.  For those who could, houses were on average a lot smaller than the average houses that young professionals want to buy today.

Furthermore, the majority of young people would not be able to finance a professional education without loans, so a "full ride" from scholarships or parents can mean a very different financial picture well after college graduation.

I honestly can't think of anyone in my family who lived alone for any length of time as a young adult.  Either they lived with family, had roommates, or had a domestic partner / spouse.

The "living in the parents' basement" joke has taken on a broader meaning than originally intended, I think.  Throughout history, it's been pretty normal for a son to live with his folks or vice versa, but said son would be working (or at least going to school full-time), paying a fair share of the bills, doing his fair share of the house maintenance, etc.  Not sitting all day playing games / watching TV and stinking up the place.  I think the drug culture probably created that unhelpful caricature.

[Heartstrings]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

So in general, even when you were a young adult, it wasn't like everyone in that age group had the ability to buy a house, on their own without any sharing or family help, by age 22.  For those who could, houses were on average a lot smaller than the average houses that young professionals want to buy today.

Maybe not buy a house, but definitely move out to a small but safe and clean apartment.  2 of us did at 18 alone, 1 with a spouse. That’s increasingly difficult and is already impossible in some places.  I bought a house at 21, most of my friends at 22 or 23.  I know that’s not normal everywhere, but living separately from parents if desired was very doable at 18 and definitely before 20.  Young adults living at home past that was to save up money, not due to inability to afford to do it.   My own kiddo couldn’t do that today.  His living at home is out of necessity. 

[SKL]

But isn't it better for the environment if fewer singles are out living separately?

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Out of curiosity, how old were you, and people of your generation that you know, when you were able to rent or buy a nice place and move out and be independent (without racking up debt)?

I grew up in a very working class neighborhood, and nearly everyone moved out as soon as they graduated from HS, either into a small apartment on their own or into a shared house. It was totally normal and expected that as soon as a couple got married, they bought a house. My sister and all of my step-siblings married in their early 20s and immediately bought homes. Both of my brothers owned small starter homes by 21; one was a mechanic and the other was a deckhand on fishing boats. The latter got married at 25, bought a nice 4 BR house, and kept the little 2BR house as a rental. None of my siblings or step-siblings had any parental help at all, although my sister and her husband had downpayment help from her in-laws, which allowed them to buy a really nice 4 BR in a great area, but they could afford the mortgage payments themselves. This was in NJ.

I was the outlier because I went off to college instead of getting a job and getting married.  None of my college friends went back to live with parents; they all either went off to grad/med school or they found good jobs right after graduation. Most were married and owned homes by their mid-20s. 

[Clarita]

4 hours ago, SKL said:

Out of curiosity, how old were you, and people of your generation that you know, when you were able to rent or buy a nice place and move out and be independent (without racking up debt)?

A lot of my friends and I that grew up in the area, we lived with our parents until we got married (probably upper middle class to upper class neighborhood). The reasoning was "why would I move out". 

None of our parents needed to do anything with their houses. Most of us had at least our own rooms. The parents didn't really mind either because their kids had good jobs and could help financially around the house if need be or want be (mom could get the shiny new washer and dryer that dad didn't really want to get her). We live in a HCOL area and parents also suffer from the issue discussed earlier in the thread that downsizing didn't necessary save them money. Lots of factors involved like new houses might come with HOAs, mortgages paid off, CA has prop13.

Marriage mostly occurred mid-twenties to mid-thirties.      

[scholastica]

Financially independent and moved out on my own at 23 shortly after college graduation. Married at 25. Homeowner with dh at 26. We had the benefit of our parents being able to pay for our college tuition, room and board and we each were gifted a serviceable vehicle in college that went with us. We know how privileged we are to have started out life after college completely debt free. It’s a huge leg up. 

[Harriet Vane]

6 hours ago, SKL said:

Out of curiosity, how old were you, and people of your generation that you know, when you were able to rent or buy a nice place and move out and be independent (without racking up debt)?

I was incredibly poor throughout high school and college and did not have any family support at all through college. I had a really incredible scholarship in college that helped so that I was able to afford room and board in the dorms for three years. My senior year was tough--partially because I was so poor, and partially because my Pell grants didn't come through until April of that year (grrr). I rented an apartment with four other girls and I worked my regular job as well as working as the apartment building manager to pay for it. At one point I had an additional job but I just couldn't manage three jobs and my class load, so I went down to two and stayed as frugal as I could be.

After I graduated I got a decent job immediately. A co-worker who was single was able to rent a one-bedroom apartment, though she had to be frugal. I got married in September of my graduation year, so dh and I were able to rent an apartment quite comfortably with our dual income. We paid off my school loans (which were minimal due to that wonderful, blessed scholarship) and then bought a house when I was 26.

[frogger]

6 hours ago, SKL said:

But isn't it better for the environment if fewer singles are out living separately?

I agree. But I don't think it has to be married people. And I have seen your posts enough to know you recognize room mates as a good alternative. 

What is interesting is my 18 year old has been pricing things to move out. He would prefer not to stick around with mom and dad. I think he just wants to feel independent which is understandable.

Anyway it is much much cheaper for him to rent a 2-4 bedroom home if he has roomates to fill the other rooms then it is for him to get an apartment. I think large housing is a much softer market here because we have fewer families and more singles. It does seem strange that people assume a four plex of single bedroom or studio apartments will take more infastructure than a 4 bedroom home when people are filling up every room anyway. If you can't find friends to go in with you are stuck paying trying to find an apartment because it is much more dangerous to share a home with a stranger than a four plex but that is what people end up doing. I mean they produce the same amount of feces but 🤷‍♀️. Often extra rooms, garages, all sorts of things are rented. I remember looking with him and someone was renting a bed in a corner of their living room, not even a seperate bedroom. I don't know if someone took it or not but I wouldn't be surprised. If there isn't enough housing these things will happen. 

My friend with 7 kids bought a home on septic. They simply know they are going to have to pump it. It isn't rooms that matter with sewage. It is the number of people. 

Edited January 23 by frogger

[PronghornD]

10 hours ago, SKL said:

Out of curiosity, how old were you, and people of your generation that you know, when you were able to rent or buy a nice place and move out and be independent (without racking up debt)?

It kind of depends on what you call a nice place. At 24 I got my first apartment. It had been someone's dining room, and they converted it into a studio. I had a pull-out couch to sleep on, a hot plate to cook on, a refrigerator, a bathroom sink for doing dishes. If anyone asked, I was supposed to say that I had access to the rest of the house, since it was not legal as an apartment, just as a furnished room. To me, having grown up with very little, this was a nice (but expensive) place. After my year's lease was up, though, I moved into a roommate situation in a half-renovated apartment in a bad neighborhood. That one was cheaper -- but very cold. My first nice a reasonably spacious place came after marriage at the age of 26. We bought a two-family house in a bad neighborhood with another couple.

[mum]

7 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I'm going to disagree a bit here.  For kids in the middle, who don't qualify for grants but whose parents arent able to help much, even in state public can be out of reach.  Our oldest is capped at $5000 a year in student loans due to parental income, but we're not able to help as much as our income makes it seem.  We were low income until the past 5 years or so when my husband got a bachelors and then a masters. That wasn't enough time to save up a lot of money and paying back loans now means that we can't cash flow thousands a semester.  $5000 a year in loans plus what can be earned at minimum wage puts even "affordable" state colleges out of reach.  Luckily we live near a satellite campus that is truly inexpensive and kiddo can live at home.  

You've done exactly what I think should be done! Looked at what you can afford and gone with that choice. For some, an 'expensive' school is actually cheaper because of large scholarships. My bottom line is that kid goes where they/parents can afford. Which is how I hope my kids will make every large financial decision. Because it's easy to feel like we need more than we can afford, but good to live within our means. I will give my one disclaimer, there are a VERY few majors where what college you attended matters. But if we are very honest with ourselves, that's a tiny number of majors. 

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, frogger said:

I agree. But I don't think it has to be married people. And I have seen your posts enough to know you recognize room mates as a good alternative. 

What is interesting is my 18 year old has been pricing things to move out. He would prefer not to stick around with mom and dad. I think he just wants to feel independent which is understandable.

Anyway it is much much cheaper for him to rent a 2-4 bedroom home if he has roomates to fill the other rooms then it is for him to get an apartment. I think large housing is a much softer market here because we have fewer families and more singles. It does seem strange that people assume a four plex of single bedroom or studio apartments will take more infastructure than a 4 bedroom home when people are filling up every room anyway. If you can't find friends to go in with you are stuck paying trying to find an apartment because it is much more dangerous to share a home with a stranger than a four plex but that is what people end up doing. I mean they produce the same amount of feces but 🤷‍♀️. Often extra rooms, garages, all sorts of things are rented. I remember looking with him and someone was renting a bed in a corner of their living room, not even a seperate bedroom. I don't know if someone took it or not but I wouldn't be surprised. If there isn't enough housing these things will happen. 

My friend with 7 kids bought a home on septic. They simply know they are going to have to pump it. It isn't rooms that matter with sewage. It is the number of people. 

A common thing where I am is to rent a 3 bedroom house or apartment and 3 couples plus a single or two cram in to split rent 6-8 ways.  It sounds like a nightmare to me, and a little dangerous, but I guess you gotta rough it a little.  

[SHP]

21 hours ago, frogger said:

You can get certified without school. It is performance based rather than hours in a classroom based. 

https://www.aws.org/Certification-and-Education/Professional-Certification/Certified-Welder-Program/?step=1

Good luck finding a place you can walk into with no training to get that experience. 

[SHP]

10 hours ago, mum said:

I should have clarified, college=4 year degree for me in this discussion. Things like welding are vocational paths. 

I see too many with college degrees with a mountain of debt and no specific qualifications, bouncing from one job to another. This isn't a general statement, this is specific people in my direct circle. 

My soapbox about college is that hardly anyone NEEDS to go to an expensive college. Many want to and confuse the want with need. In-state public college is in reach for those for whom  4 year college is the correct academic fit. Choice about college is the first big financial decision point, followed by how much car to buy and how much house to buy. It's a good thing to present the college decision in this context. Overextending financially is mostly not worth it for any of these things. 

2 year schools =/= trade schools

The 4 year school I attended took all my credits from the 2 year school I attended because it was still college. 

And trade schools are not free.

[frogger]

34 minutes ago, SHP said:

Good luck finding a place you can walk into with no training to get that experience. 

Well, I live in a place with lots of people who have mig and tig welders in their garage and yes it is a privalage. I recognize that is not available to everyone. But for some kids whose parents, relatives, employers have the ability and invest in them it is a possability.  My teen was welding  today in fact, building a stand for his punching bag.

My oldest son wished he would have gotten his CDL. He wasn't that far from it because a guy at the shop he worked as a shop hand took the time to teach him to drive a tractor trailer. He wasn't ready to test yet when he left for college because that was just his "summer job" and college was starting.  My son found this shop job when he was cleaning dog poop out of neighbor's yards and cleaned the shop msnagers yard as a high school kid and that was how he ended being hired at the shop where they taught him all sorts of stuff. Of course, I guess what my son paid in was many hours of tedious sandplasting and pressure washing for the mechanics. The low skill job he was actually hired for.

I realize that where you live and who you know greatly affects the opportunities you have. Most of my children have received or earned on the job training from their employers. From Bike mechanics, to operating equipment, to office admin. 3rd child was super excited to start at a mountaineering equipment store recently. He was hired to sell skies and cold weather gear. That was what he had to offer and got him hired.  He wants to learn... everything else!

I do know colleges allow for a lot of testing out of classes but not entirily. There is going to school to learn (which is good) but there is also times when it feels like paying money to sit in classes and waste your time. That is what drives people bonkers. When you have to be in a classroom for x amount of hours to get a paper telling the world what you supposedly learned. You may find great teachers along the way. You may also find classes that are a waste of time for stuff you could learn faster on your own. I prefer things that allow you to prove yourself if it is the type of thing that can be proven. 

Oldest son is finding ways to teach himself PCB design then he hopes to  demonstrate his abilities to a company designing robotic crawlers for non destructive testing of pipelines. He doesn't need the degree (though he has an EE degree, it isn't required) he needs the ability to design these things to get hired. 

[frogger]

2 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

A common thing where I am is to rent a 3 bedroom house or apartment and 3 couples plus a single or two cram in to split rent 6-8 ways.  It sounds like a nightmare to me, and a little dangerous, but I guess you gotta rough it a little.  

When I was young and living on my own in a different state from parents off of three minimum wage jobs one of the obstacles I discovered was fire codes and limits placed by landlords. 😂 I completely understand that more people use more utilities and wear and tear on the apartment but boy was it frustrating. Not frustrating enough to move to a cardboard box though. I had no car to move to since I could only afford a bicycle. The trully bad things about bike commuting is you can't sleep in them or lock up your stuff in them. 

[SHP]

10 minutes ago, frogger said:

Well, I live in a place with lots of people who have mig and tig welders in their garage and yes it is a privalage. I recognize that is not available to everyone. But for some kids whose parents, relatives, employers have the ability and invest in them it is a possability.  My teen was welding  today in fact, building a stand for his punching bag.

My oldest son wished he would have gotten his CDL. He wasn't that far from it because a guy at the shop he worked as a shop hand took the time to teach him to drive a tractor trailer. He wasn't ready to test yet when he left for college because that was just his "summer job" and college was starting.  My son found this shop job when he was cleaning dog poop out of neighbor's yards and cleaned the shop msnagers yard as a high school kid and that was how he ended being hired at the shop where they taught him all sorts of stuff. Of course, I guess what my son paid in was many hours of tedious sandplasting and pressure washing for the mechanics. The low skill job he was actually hired for.

I realize that where you live and who you know greatly affects the opportunities you have. Most of my children have received or earned on the job training from their employers. From Bike mechanics, to operating equipment, to office admin. 3rd child was super excited to start at a mountaineering equipment store recently. He was hired to sell skies and cold weather gear. That was what he had to offer and got him hired.  He wants to learn... everything else!

I do know colleges allow for a lot of testing out of classes but not entirily. There is going to school to learn (which is good) but there is also times when it feels like paying money to sit in classes and waste your time. That is what drives people bonkers. When you have to be in a classroom for x amount of hours to get a paper telling the world what you supposedly learned. You may find great teachers along the way. You may also find classes that are a waste of time for stuff you could learn faster on your own. I prefer things that allow you to prove yourself if it is the type of thing that can be proven. 

Oldest son is finding ways to teach himself PCB design then he hopes to  demonstrate his abilities to a company designing robotic crawlers for non destructive testing of pipelines. He doesn't need the degree (though he has an EE degree, it isn't required) he needs the ability to design these things to get hired. 

This really highlights what I am seeing. It is a lot of luck and who you know to get in the door. It really shouldn't be this way. 

The option to test out is "offered" here. But not really. My husband sat through a class he could have tested out of blindfolded. He begged to test out. He offered references to confirm his work experience. He spoke to multiple people and quoted the test out policy. Still no. He ended up paired with a clueless student and was basically an unpaid teacher's aid.