Deer behavior: problem and rant

[Innisfree]

We’re in a suburban neighborhood with lots of woody edge environment. It’s perfect for deer, and we have about half a million of them. All well and good, except a large minority of the human neighbors feed the deer. We know of three houses spaced along our street of less than half a mile where deer are obviously fed daily; others probably do the same in less visible backyard areas.

The deer have lost almost all fear of humans. Some seem to expect hand feeding. Walking down the street is akin to walking in a petting zoo, with lots of family groups of deer appearing at different locations, some tamer than others. In the evening, given the woods between the houses, it’s impossible to predict where the deer will be until we’re very close to them.

Right now several does have fairly young fawns.

We need to walk dogs at least twice daily. Our dogs are leashed and well trained, and have gotten pretty good at ignoring the deer, but of course they’re interested.

One of the does has become increasingly aggressive toward dd and one dog. In the last few days the doe has escalated from approaching with ears pinned back to approaching and stomping.

She’s concerned about protecting her fawn, which is understandable, but I’m concerned that she may actually pose a danger to dd and the dog. I did some reading last night which suggests that deer do occasionally attack dogs and humans, especially when they’re protecting fawns. They can cause significant injuries: they’re two hundred pound hooved animals that rear up and stomp on whatever they’re attacking.

Dd and I have talked about turning around at the first sign of anxiety on the part of deer, but I’m wondering if we just need to stop walking in the neighborhood until the doe calms down. It’s going to be a huge nuisance to have to drive to suitable walking areas twice daily. 

So… does anyone have experience with aggressive deer? It sounds like an absurd situation, but from dd’s description of this doe’s behavior, I think it could get out of hand. Is there anything we can do, short of abandoning our own neighborhood for walks? I don’t want to increase the doe’s sense that she needs to protect her fawn, so making noise might not be the way to go. Anything that seems to challenge her, or frighten her, could make things worse. We thought of carrying a bright flashlight to shine at her. I’m not sure how she would react to that, other than maybe the classic deer-in-headlights freeze. Maybe that would be enough…?

My rant here is just that I wish people would let wild animals be wild. If umpteen people weren’t feeding the deer and getting them habituated to being close to humans, this wouldn’t be an issue.

[Bambam]

I have no idea, but we lived in a neighborhood with lots of deer - and a few neighbors feeding them. 
I did observe one mama deer chasing a dog that got close to her baby - and she absolutely turned on him and chased him and tried her best to bite him. It was a little frightening to watch (neighbor's dog, I called her to let her know what happened after her dog raced home). 

I hope you can find a solution. Now I'm wondering if there exists a deer spray like bear spray? 

Deer have so many ticks, I'm not sure why folks are so interested in having them so close? Texas has a severe deer overpopulation problem right now - they aren't as healthy as they should be since there are so many. 

[MercyA]

I know a deer expert. I will ask today and get back to you.

[Innisfree]

3 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I know a deer expert. I will ask today and get back to you.

Thank you! I appreciate that.

[Innisfree]

5 minutes ago, Bambam said:

Deer have so many ticks, I'm not sure why folks are so interested in having them so close?

I’ve wondered the same thing. During the height of the pandemic, when reports came out about large percentages of deer having Covid antibodies and potentially being able to pass it to humans, I wondered even more. 

[PeterPan]

Can you talk with your county game warden? They may be able to get this stopped. As you say, it's incredibly unwise. And YES deer can be dangerous or charge, mercy. We live surrounded by deer but we would never presume they are tame or safe or wouldn't do something. Your situation sounds scary to me.

I think I would take a whistle in that situation. Take something to scare the deer back before they ever get close to you like that. That is just completely not acceptable. Have you seen bear bells? They use them in Alaska when hiking, haha. 

[Innisfree]

Just now, PeterPan said:

Can you talk with your county game warden?

As soon as the holiday weekend is over, I plan to call them. A whistle could be a good idea, thanks. I think the key would be using before we’re close to the deer, to encourage them to move away.

[PeterPan]

5 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

As soon as the holiday weekend is over, I plan to call them. A whistle could be a good idea, thanks. I think the key would be using before we’re close to the deer, to encourage them to move away.

Yes, treat it like you would any other situation with a large wild animal. Be loud, be unpleasant for them to approach, and let them hear you a good ways off. And I'd probably stand in front of anyone's house who has been feeding the stupid deer and BLOW THE WHISTLE right there a whole bunch of times. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

Btw, have you seen the moon guide for deer? Deer tend to be out feeding and most active when the moon is overhead (or underfooot). You can improve your safety immediately by timing your walks for times when the moon is *not* overhead or underfoot. It's why deer can seem so random, because they are actually drawn by the moon, just like the tides, etc.

https://moonguide.com/pages/deer-hunters-moonguide-app

[Carrie12345]

I don’t have any real advice because I’ve only had 1 buck stand up to a dog, and he eventually backed down. But I’d advise to be even more careful as we go into rutting season!

[Ting Tang]

Yep, contact your game warden, department of natural resources, etc.  If it is legal in your state, the humans still need to be deterred.  Is there a Facebook group?  You can post things. 

[Innisfree]

I just checked our laws. It is actually illegal to feed wildlife if doing so causes a danger to public health. It’s also illegal under any circumstances from September 1 through, I forget, maybe December. So it looks like the game warden should be able to tell people to stop putting food out. We’ll still have a population of hungry, frustrated, tame, and sometimes aggressive deer in the neighborhood, but maybe they’ll slowly become less habituated to humans: not an immediate solution, but better.

[PeterPan]

I'm googling this, and some cities have laws or ordinances against feeding deer. It's possible your neighbors are violating the law.

[Innisfree]

Just now, PeterPan said:

I'm googling this, and some cities have laws or ordinances against feeding deer. It's possible your neighbors are violating the law.

Yep

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, Innisfree said:

I just checked our laws. It is actually illegal to feed wildlife if doing so causes a danger to public health. It’s also illegal under any circumstances from September 1 through, I forget, maybe December. So it looks like the game warden should be able to tell people to stop putting food out. We’ll still have a population of hungry, frustrated, tame, and sometimes aggressive deer in the neighborhood, but maybe they’ll slowly become less habituated to humans: not an immediate solution, but better.

Good sleuthing! The laws I found also define "food". In our area they sell salt blocks so that was interesting to realize they'd be violating the law if used in certain cities.

[PeterPan]

You might make some video if it happens while you're out again. 

[Innisfree]

Just now, PeterPan said:

Good sleuthing! The laws I found also define "food". In our area they sell salt blocks so that was interesting to realize they'd be violating the law if used in certain cities.

Yeah, I’ve seen a salt block down the street. Our law includes minerals. 😉

[PeterPan]

9 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

Yeah, I’ve seen a salt block down the street. Our law includes minerals. 😉

Well I'm glad you have the law on your side and will be able to get some help! I would definitely get some photographic evidence and make video. You need to have evidence it's happening and evidence of harm, since harm is the key feature of the law most of the year. Otherwise it's just you alleging. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by PeterPan

[Pawz4me]

I'd try a handheld air horn while I was still far away from the deer.

[PeterPan]

31 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I'd try a handheld air horn while I was still far away from the deer.

That could be very effective during those early morning walks...🤣

[Pawz4me]

24 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

That could be very effective during those early morning walks...🤣

Has the added benefit of clueing the neighbors in to your unhappiness about the situation. 😉 

Edited September 2, 2023 by Pawz4me
Cluing or clueing? Neither looks right, the Google says either is correct

[MercyA]

My friend pretty much said what others have said here--find out if the feeding is illegal and get the DNR or equivalent involved. Sounds like that is the plan! And my friend said while the doe likely would not attack your DD, she may very well kick at your dog. I know you don't want to increase the doe's fear, but I agree with others that noisemakers are probably your best bet.  

[-----]

Wow that's a lot of deer in a small space.  It does sound dangerous.

We had tons of them when we lived in the woods, but they would scatter and hide when we walked out the door.  And no problems with aggressive deer.  Maybe your deer are competing for food along with becoming WAY too acclimated to humans.  

You probably can't do this given it's a neighborhood, but whenever we had a problem bear hanging around, we just did some shooting on our property and ALL the bears would disappear for quite a while.  The same would likely be true for deer. 

Try to think of anything you can do to SCARE them.  The foghorn sounds good, but they might figure that one out.  Firecrackers would be good, too. The guns are good because they usually know what that means.  At least our deer did because we were surrounded by hunters who hunted them.

Bang pots together maybe?  And keep it all random and unexpected because they learn fast, just like bears, and anything done on a regular basis will become their new 'normal' and they'll ignore it.

Also, I might would insist the Game Warden come out and actually SEE what's going on.  IOW, don't let him brush you off with the 'wild animals will be wild animals' speech. 

Good luck.  The ticks alone would have me out there with a gun.

Edited September 2, 2023 by kathyl

[livetoread]

Squirt gun? Nerf gun?

[katilac]

I have a mental image of the deer hanging out on the street corner, wearing leather jackets and smoking cigarettes. 

5 hours ago, Bambam said:

 Deer have so many ticks, I'm not sure why folks are so interested in having them so close? 

We watched Bambi at an impressionable age. 

[KungFuPanda]

They are downright entitled in my neighborhood and nobody is feeding them because nobody wants lymes disease. They’re walking down the street and snacking on landscaping plants. They’ve developed a taste for “deer resistant” plants. They’ve trimmed my rhododendron to look like a tree. It’s ridiculous. We need to start eating them. 

[dsmith]

We are in the suburbs of NJ and have quite a few deer around. We've noticed a pattern to when they are coming through our immediate area. It seems to be around 10 am one way and 6 pm the other way. I don't know if your deer follow any kind of pattern, but perhaps if they do you could walk the dog around the times they may be out and about near you. I've never seen an aggressive doe or buck near here. We usually have a doe in our back yard with fawns every year, and we've peacefully coexisted. They like to hang out under our bushes, almost like a nest. Now that our old neighbors have moved out nobody seems to be feeding any of the deer in the area. The one doe they were feeding seemed to become a herd outcast. 

[City Mouse]

I live in an area with lots of annoying deer in town. While not common, a couple of years ago one dog was attacked and killed by a deer. The dog’s owner was injured fighting the deer. I have had one in my yard this spring start to move toward my dog, and I immediately got the dog inside. Found out later that there were 2 babies near by. Usually the deer are more cautious around people. I do make sure to talk and make noise when there are deer in the yard.

 

[popmom]

On 9/2/2023 at 12:15 PM, Bambam said:

Deer have so many ticks, I'm not sure why folks are so interested in having them so close? Texas has a severe deer overpopulation problem right now - they aren't as healthy as they should be since there are so many. 

yep. I used to live in Hollywood Park, TX. infamous for the inbred deer. It's been 10 years. I wonder what it's like now. We never had any aggressive encounters.

We are pretty overrun with deer where we are now--not in TX. Also in a suburb, but most people here seem to understand NOT to feed them. Thankfully.

And yeah they will even eat deer resistant plants now. 😕 

Our issue is that we have poachers. That is dangerous in a suburb. Every once in awhile someone will find a dead deer or an arrow in their yard. I'm not against hunting and eating them. I enjoy venison. But not in my neighborhood.

[Pam in CT]

Sigh. Deer are a plague in places where they don't belong.

 

Thirding the ideas of DNR and air horn if it comes to that. 

But before enlisting such measure, I'd first suggest just... walking over and ringing the doorbell and talking to the neighbors?  Letting them know what's happening?  They very well may not know, and they very well might act responsibly if they did know.  Turning them in, or blasting an early morning horn on them (whose purpose and context they won't know, unless you tell them) starts out with escalation when a short conversation might very well do the trick, KWIM? 

Most people on this earth are pretty decent people.

[Faith-manor]

22 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

Sigh. Deer are a plague in places where they don't belong.

 

Thirding the ideas of DNR and air horn if it comes to that. 

But before enlisting such measure, I'd first suggest just... walking over and ringing the doorbell and talking to the neighbors?  Letting them know what's happening?  They very well may not know, and they very well might act responsibly if they did know.  Turning them in, or blasting an early morning horn on them (whose purpose and context they won't know, unless you tell them) starts out with escalation when a short conversation might very well do the trick, KWIM? 

Most people on this earth are pretty decent people.

Yes. I would have this conversation first as well. Also, it is really dangerous to the deer because deer wasting disease and bovine tuberculosis is spread often at feeding/baiting sites because one sick deer in a clump of eager eaters at the same pile, can infect all of them. At times, it is very illegal in my state to feed them because the DNR does not want them constantly coming back to the same feed pile. If not fed by humans, they disperse and forage for food which is better for them. It is also better for dairy and beef farmers because the deer spread bovine tuberculosis to the herds whenever it gets epidemic in the deer population. Then those cows have to be slaughtered to stop the spread and keep it from getting to humans. So maybe OP could gently explain that in the end, feeding the deer is very bad for their health. People can be very unaware of this.

Then again, there is my mother in law whom we had to come down on with both feet because we told her and told her and told her not to do it, and she did it anyway, multiple times. So we told her that if she goes kept it up, someone with cause to visit the house, like the mail lady with packages to deliver to the porch might turn her in, and she would be fined a very vastly fine. The threat of wallet raiding by the state was what put an end to her deer feeding. Sigh.

Done escalate unless you really have to do so.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Faith-manor

[GoodGrief3]

We deal with moose in the neighborhoods here, basically oversized deer. I have not found air horns to be effective with them. I do suggest giving an aggressive doe a wide berth, and contacting Fish and Wildlife (or whatever your local organization is called.) Specify that this is a problem doe. Probably not necessary to talk about the neighbors feeding the deer at this point. They will hopefully want to deal with the immediate safety issue.

[Innisfree]

15 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

Sigh. Deer are a plague in places where they don't belong.

 

Thirding the ideas of DNR and air horn if it comes to that. 

But before enlisting such measure, I'd first suggest just... walking over and ringing the doorbell and talking to the neighbors?  Letting them know what's happening?  They very well may not know, and they very well might act responsibly if they did know.  Turning them in, or blasting an early morning horn on them (whose purpose and context they won't know, unless you tell them) starts out with escalation when a short conversation might very well do the trick, KWIM? 

Most people on this earth are pretty decent people.

Good point. You’re right. I’m not doing anything immediately, because other urgent stuff has come up. The feeding issue can hopefully be addressed as you suggest. I’m not sure that resolves the immediate safety issue, but probably nothing short of removing the doe would do that. I’m not sure that’s a realistic solution, either, given the difficulty of identifying her. I can’t make a wildlife officer walk the streets in the late afternoon and evening with a dog. And she’s got a fawn… hate to encourage just taking her out, which probably means killing both of them. We’ve shifted walking times, at least temporarily.