Drag Story time

[SKL]

The topic of teen suicide is a big one and might be helpful to discuss on WTM, though I am sure it would also be very difficult.  I think the majority of people I know had at least frequent suicidal ideation as teens.  And where I live, with the spikes in accidental drug overdoses and suicides, it's an incredibly scary time to parent a teen.

I wouldn't minimize the concern that a child struggling with gender may have suicidal thoughts, but I think there's much more there than gender issues.  However the gender issue is addressed, that's not going to make our kids safe.

[Eos]

14 minutes ago, LMD said:

Just fyi - parents on both 'sides' have lost teens. That also happens when one side of a debate paints the other side as a genocidal enemy.

Thank you for this insight, I was unthinking.

[LMD]

21 minutes ago, Eos said:

Thank you for this insight, I was unthinking.

All good. Raising teens is freaking hard.

[Terabith]

Teen suicide is obviously a huge issue but it is not why I say the right wants cultural genocide.  
 

 

[Drama Llama]

I'm pretty sure that no one on this thread has said that debate equal genocide.  The term was used to refer to the actions of certain right wing American politicians who push legislation that places people at risk, such as the law that allows medical providers to refuse emergency treatment to trans people.  

[Terabith]

I think this is a topic that merits discussion.  I have  concerns about the left on this topic too.  Honestly, it feels like everything is so absolute that discussion is very hard. 
 

I have concerns about teens transitioning with no gatekeeping.  And I know a ton of people on the left who are like wtf, there’s all kinds of gatekeepers. But I know my non binary teen was offered testosterone at 16 when they hadn’t even asked, and I know that mental health counseling that explored issues beyond transitioning was impossible for us to access.  It’s a real issue, and I don’t think it serves people well, and I am very concerned about the inability to talk about this without being labeled a bigot, even in groups of parents of transgender teens.  On the other hand, I have huge issues with laws that prohibit teens from accessing transition related medical care under any circumstances, because unintended consequences are a huge problem, and because there are no absolutes.  I think the current system is wrong, but I also think there are cases where it’s needed.  Law never practices good medicine.  
 

But the right wants LGBT people not to exist.  It’s not because they’re so mean and kids will kill themselves.  It’s because of laws that prohibit adults from transitioning.  It’s because of laws that say doctors, pharmacists, and EMTs can refuse ALL healthcare to anyone they choose.  Every single trans adult I know has been denied non transition related he’s care by medical professionals.  MANY TIMES.  Recently.  One friend was in a car accident and the EMTs were like, “Oh yeah, we’re not treating you, fag,” and laughed at them as they lay bleeding.  Dozens of doctors have refused to treat them for strep throat because they are trans.  All of that is legal.  
 

Texas is investigating families for child abuse if they allow kids to change their names socially, get gender non conforming haircuts, or wear gender non conforming clothing.

In addition, trans people all over the South are being threatened with prison if they pee in a public bathroom.  None of my adult trans friends are flamboyant, and they all pass as their chosen gender.  None of them are wearing tutus and gold bras.  My friend with XX chromosomes has muscles and a beard and lots of tattoos: Is he supposed to go into a women’s restroom?  Everyone would be very uncomfortable.  Trans people are not legally allowed to exist in public.  
 

Tennessee has anti drag laws written in such a way that anyone can be arrested for wearing gender non conforming clothing.  
 

Public facing professionals are not allowed to show any support to lgbt people.  You can’t refer to your same gender spouse or trans kids. You can’t wear anything deemed to have rainbows.  Books that have gay characters are not allowed to exist in libraries.  
 

And people who are running for local government positions have on their Facebook profile pictures of guns pointing at targets that look like people with gender non conforming clothing and slogans like, “Kill all the gays.”

THAT is why I say the right wants to commit cultural genocide on LGBT people.  I am not engaging in hyperbole.  I am simply taking people at their word.  

Edited June 20, 2023 by Terabith

[SKL]

For those who don't live in the US, I do want to point out that what is described in certain states is not true throughout the US.  I don't know the exact situation in every state, but I'm in a moderate swing state, and not only do trans people just being trans not raise an eyebrow here, but it's been that way for decades at least.

Now if we're talking about people being "flamboyant," that will raise some eyebrows from older folks, but it's still live and let live, as long as you aren't all up in someone else's business.

We do have concerns about biological males being in all-girls spaces where the girls are vulnerable, e.g., locker rooms and women's prisons.  We don't love biological males racing against females and taking all the trophies.  We'd be fine with trans people having separate facilities and sports options where females aren't put at an obvious disadvantage.  I don't think public school libraries need to have books that include explicit sex scenes of any kind.  If anyone is going to extrapolate these views into genocide, I don't think that's rational.

I don't know and don't care whether or not our area has optional drag queen story hours.  I don't think taxpayer money should be spent on it, and I don't think it should be done in spaces where there is a captive audience (such as public schools where kids don't have the option to walk away).

Disclaimer - no matter where you are on this planet, there are going to be some people who are mean and stupid.  The most liberal location on the planet will have some group of boys who still think gay bashing and trans bashing is fun.  Just like some of them think raping girls is fun.  I've seen children of lesbians speak out against homosexuality.  You can't gauge a society's tolerance based on the extremes.

[SKL]

39 minutes ago, Terabith said:

And people who are running for local government positions have on their Facebook profile pictures of guns pointing at targets that look like people with gender non conforming clothing and slogans like, “Kill all the gays.”

Are you sure this wasn't a bot pretending to be a government official?  Because that is how they divide us.

Is there a link to this facebook page?  I've certainly never seen anything like this in my 56 years of life.

[Terabith]

Just now, SKL said:

Are you sure this wasn't a bot pretending to be a government official?  Because that is how they divide us.

Is there a link to this facebook page?  I've certainly never seen anything like this in my 56 years of life.

This is someone RUNNING for local government.  It is not a government sanctioned site.  

[SKL]

Just now, Terabith said:

This is someone RUNNING for local government.  It is not a government sanctioned site.  

Link?

How is "k!ll all the ___" not censored?

[rebcoola]

So interesting my teen has not been offered hormone blockers or testosterone.  Even though they have been fully socially transitioned for 2 years FTM.  Finding good therapists is also an issue.

41 minutes ago, Terabith said:

 have concerns about teens transitioning with no gatekeeping.  And I know a ton of people on the left who are like wtf, there’s all kinds of gatekeepers. But I know my non binary teen was offered testosterone at 16 when they hadn’t even asked, and I know that mental health counseling that explored issues beyond transitioning was impossible for us to access.

 

[Terabith]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Link?

How is "k!ll all the ___" not censored?

I saw it three weeks ago, in a neighborhood buying/ selling group, and frankly, I don't remember their name.  Sorry.  

[prairiewindmomma]

7 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Believe me you don't want this at all. this is what they are doing here. No more female public toilets. Instead they are gender free. which means they have ripped off the seats on the toilets and there is no back splash either. there is just a metal toilet bowel completely covered in urine the floors are covered in urine and the walls. and while they are at it they removed the sanitary disposal from most remaining female public toilets and just have one in the central area because they wouldn't want to offend any person who identifies as female but doesn't have periods.

 

 

???? We have them here already. At the public pool they have a men’s room, a women’s room, and a large string of all gender bathrooms with full handicapped access so parents can help children or spouses can help each other or people who don’t want to change around others can do so. 

At dh’s work, it’s just a string of rooms, and people can choose as they like.

At the local parks even, it’s all gender. It makes the lines go much quicker.

What I appreciate about them is that they do all have changing tables and sanitary supply dispensers. It means fathers can change baby diapers because typically men’s restrooms do not have changing tables. This was a huge issue for us many years ago when our wheelchair bound daughter needed assistance. I had just had a baby and couldn’t do either baby care or toileting care for my kid in a wheelchair due to a medical situation of mine. We essentially memorized where we could go safely with regards to bathroom access. 
 

I am sorry your experience has been something else.

 

[KSera]

15 hours ago, BandH said:

I'm pretty sure that no one on this thread has said that debate equal genocide.  The term was used to refer to the actions of certain right wing American politicians who push legislation that places people at risk, such as the law that allows medical providers to refuse emergency treatment to trans people.  

That's a shockingly wrong law and that's a place I think government can and should be involved in this instance--there should be laws that do not allow medical providers to decline emergency treatment to anyone. It seems like that should be one that could be passed, because everyone could be classified in one way or another--religious people would surely want to make sure no one could deny them treatment because of their religion for example.  All that said, that's not how my own trans kid is interpreting the genocide language. We are in an area without any anti lgbt legislation of any kind (and in fact have protections the opposite), yet my ds has taken the message that "people want to kill him" which is a horrible thing for someone to walk around thinking.

15 hours ago, Terabith said:

I think this is a topic that merits discussion.  I have  concerns about the left on this topic too.  Honestly, it feels like everything is so absolute that discussion is very hard. 
 

I have concerns about teens transitioning with no gatekeeping.  And I know a ton of people on the left who are like wtf, there’s all kinds of gatekeepers. But I know my non binary teen was offered testosterone at 16 when they hadn’t even asked, and I know that mental health counseling that explored issues beyond transitioning was impossible for us to access.  It’s a real issue, and I don’t think it serves people well, and I am very concerned about the inability to talk about this without being labeled a bigot, even in groups of parents of transgender teens.  On the other hand, I have huge issues with laws that prohibit teens from accessing transition related medical care under any circumstances, because unintended consequences are a huge problem, and because there are no absolutes.  I think the current system is wrong, but I also think there are cases where it’s needed.  Law never practices good medicine.  
 

But the right wants LGBT people not to exist.  It’s not because they’re so mean and kids will kill themselves.  It’s because of laws that prohibit adults from transitioning.  It’s because of laws that say doctors, pharmacists, and EMTs can refuse ALL healthcare to anyone they choose.  Every single trans adult I know has been denied non transition related he’s care by medical professionals.  MANY TIMES.  Recently.  One friend was in a car accident and the EMTs were like, “Oh yeah, we’re not treating you, fag,” and laughed at them as they lay bleeding.  Dozens of doctors have refused to treat them for strep throat because they are trans.  All of that is legal.  
 

Texas is investigating families for child abuse if they allow kids to change their names socially, get gender non conforming haircuts, or wear gender non conforming clothing.

In addition, trans people all over the South are being threatened with prison if they pee in a public bathroom.  None of my adult trans friends are flamboyant, and they all pass as their chosen gender.  None of them are wearing tutus and gold bras.  My friend with XX chromosomes has muscles and a beard and lots of tattoos: Is he supposed to go into a women’s restroom?  Everyone would be very uncomfortable.  Trans people are not legally allowed to exist in public.  
 

Tennessee has anti drag laws written in such a way that anyone can be arrested for wearing gender non conforming clothing.  
 

Public facing professionals are not allowed to show any support to lgbt people.  You can’t refer to your same gender spouse or trans kids. You can’t wear anything deemed to have rainbows.  Books that have gay characters are not allowed to exist in libraries.  
 

And people who are running for local government positions have on their Facebook profile pictures of guns pointing at targets that look like people with gender non conforming clothing and slogans like, “Kill all the gays.”

THAT is why I say the right wants to commit cultural genocide on LGBT people.  I am not engaging in hyperbole.  I am simply taking people at their word.  

Wow, Terabith, it's truly like we live in different countries. Your story about the EMTs is so far outside how things work here that I'm gobsmacked that could happen in this country and the EMTs wouldn't be charged with a crime.

[deleted]

Edited June 21, 2023 by KSera

[SHP]

39 minutes ago, SKL said:

We'd be fine with trans people having separate facilities and sports options 

This sounds an awful lot like segregation and we know from fairly recent history in the US that this does not work.

 

 

Re sports: In many many areas youth recreational sports are still divided by gender with some sports almost all boys or all girls and having a child who wants to participate in a recreational sport league and is the only boy/girl is very difficult. A parent has to be very involved and constantly advocating. This is just having a cis child and 6 week long recreational leagues for k-8. I cannot imagine the headaches the parents go through to advocate for their trans child who wants to participate in any sport anywhere at all, especially once they are older or have the skill set to play at a more competitive level. 

 

[maize]

52 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I saw it three weeks ago, in a neighborhood buying/ selling group, and frankly, I don't remember their name.  Sorry.  

That doesn't sound like a trustworthy source. 

[KSera]

4 minutes ago, SHP said:

Re sports: In many many areas youth recreational sports are still divided by gender with some sports almost all boys or all girls and having a child who wants to participate in a recreational sport league and is the only boy/girl is very difficult. A parent has to be very involved and constantly advocating. This is just having a cis child and 6 week long recreational leagues for k-8. I cannot imagine the headaches the parents go through to advocate for their trans child who wants to participate in any sport anywhere at all, especially once they are older or have the skill set to play at a more competitive level. 

There are a couple professional sports that have recently adapted to this by keeping two categories but having one be "open" (meaning not gender constrained in any way, open to people with any combination of gender identity and biology) and one "female only" which is biological female specific and has limits having to do usually with whether they experienced male puberty and/or testosterone levels. Currently, this approach isn't satisfactory to everyone, but it will be interesting to see whether as people get used to it and no longer feel like it's supposed to be either male or female, it becomes a good solution. Theoretically, it really could be. I think it's just tied up with too much of the other debate such that it feels very sticky still.

[maize]

8 minutes ago, SHP said:

This sounds an awful lot like segregation and we know from fairly recent history in the US that this does not work.

Women and girls have had separate sports for decades, and yes it does work. We had to fight for it because females aren't generally competitive with males, especially post puberty, and females deserve a chance to compete in their own sphere. 

Some sports, even at the professional level, are moving towards a female category and an open category; that makes room for trans competitors without undoing the hard work females have done to be able to compete in our own sphere.

[prairiewindmomma]

Alabama mayor: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48521788.amp

 

I’m aware of Scott Esk calling for the death of gay people in Oklahoma in 2013. https://www.newsweek.com/gop-candidate-saying-totally-just-kill-gay-people-resurfaces-oklahoma-1735846?amp=1
 

Mike Hill of FL made a similar comment: https://www.politico.com/states/florida/story/2019/08/12/mike-hill-joked-about-killing-gay-people-then-he-clashed-with-republican-leaders-1139282

Georgia Congressman: https://rollcall.com/2016/06/15/congressman-who-read-anti-gay-bible-verse-prays-for-orlando-victims-loved-ones/

I am willing to believe that she has seen that because a large number of things popped up when I googled….mostly pastors, but there was also a Florida politician who called trans people “demons and imps” and lots of instances of adjacent hate speech. 

 

[Heartstrings]

19 minutes ago, KSera said:

ow, Terabith, it's truly like we live in different countries

This is EXACTLY what I said earlier.  If you don’t live where it’s happening, you don’t understand.  It seems unfathomable, yet here it is.  
 

I truly believe people are arguing in good faith based on their belief that it’s not that bad, because that is their experience.  You can’t fathom how bad it is because you can’t imagine people being so cruel, because it’s incomprehensible. Your experience insist that it can’t be that bad.  The word genocide *has to be* an exaggeration, because the alternative is just too horrible to possibly be true.  
 
It IS that terrible.  Just like with slavery, or Jim Crow, the South is just uniquely terrible ya’ll.  Have to see it to believe bad.  
 

This region really is *uniquely* cruel to LGBT, uniquely callous to pregnant woman and still unique in our racism.  Over and over and over you are faced with how bad it is in the South, and yet each time it’s incomprehensible to decent people that it can be so.   Law makers really DO require pregnant people to bleed out in parking lots, and doctors do it.  Law makers really DO allow paramedics to allow people to bleed out if they are gay, and paramedics really DO do it.  
 

If you aren’t here and you are having thoughts about it not being possible for it to be this bad, you are wrong.  

Edited June 20, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Dmmetler]

We're in the process of creating a 5 year poan for parks and rec, and one of the biggest needs is accessible, family restrooms. Having a third option that has the features families need will help those who don't fit neatly into a gender box as well. The plan is to add bathrooms for this, not convert existing ones, unless we already have single stall restrooms where conversion is just changing a sign on the single ones from "men" or. "women" to "restroom". 

 

Rec sports is another issue. What we have right now is that u8 and below have no gender division, u12 and below are mixed leagues, but parents can request an all boy, all girl, or mixed team, and if there aren't enough boys or girls to make a whole team, they're mixed by default. Where possible, teams play other teams composed the same way, but it's not always possible, and larger leagues will crown champions in each subdivision. After that point, we really don't have rec level sports until you get to adults, and the school sports stuff picks up. Adult rec is co-ed. There basically ARE no rec sports for teens until they're old enough to join an adult team. It's either school (which is often highly competitive) or travel. 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Dmmetler

[bolt.]

I don't understand why converting to individual no-gender bathrooms isn't happening all over the place.

It doesn't strike me as that big of a renovation to adapt "stalls" into more solid-walled secure cubicles; remove or create cubicles around existing urinals; and remove various doors and walls to make the hand-washing area seem more open and communal. Basically everything that has plumbing can probably stay exactly where it is. (Maybe every 2nd urinal would have to come out.)

On the door to each cubicle just label it with a little pictogram of a toilet or a urinal and let everybody choose whatever fixture suits their current need/preference.

[SHP]

1 minute ago, maize said:

Women and girls have had separate sports for decades, and yes it does work. We had to fight for it because females aren't generally competitive with males, especially post puberty, and females deserve a chance to compete in their own sphere. 

Some sports, even at the professional level, are moving towards a female category and an open category; that makes room for trans competitors without undoing the hard work females have done to be able to compete in our own sphere.

I was referring to recreational leagues for k-8 and not a specific sport or if it was primarily "girls" or "boys" for a reason. Have a 7 year old cis girl who wants to play a sport that is "for boys"? It takes a lot of work on the parents part to get them on a recreational level team, regardless of skill level. And vise verse. There may not be any options for boys so if they want to play that sport they have to play with girls. They may not have ever played that sport before and be the worst player out there but they have no other options. 

Again, I am talking recreational level k-8. The kids do not change or shower on site. They arrive in uniform and leave in uniform. In enforcing these things it will result in young kids, both cis and trans, being excluded. Kids who probably have no clue of the history and politics behind the why but are left excluded from something they are interested in. The 6 year old boy who wants to join the local recreational softball team cannot. The 9 year old girl who wants to play hockey cannot because there is not a local girls team. 

 

 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I wouldn’t really have any idea that some of this was happening if it wasn’t for this board.  I live in a conservative area of a blue state, but aside from one annoying very small town county legislator in the county I’m living in, everyone is really very live and let live.  Our state EMS director is gay.  The woman he succeeded is a lesbian.  One of my friends is the operations director of a nearby large ambulance company and is a transman.  I wrote and teach a class that is soon to be required in all EMT classes in the state that is specifically on cultural competency for EMS and includes things like understanding and respecting people’s modesty(large Hasidic and Amish populations here), religion, and pronouns.  I consider myself a conservative Christian but it requires exactly nothing from me to ask a patient what their preferred pronouns are.  And I’ve had patients tear up when I asked because people don’t.

But I don’t really have problems believing that it’s different in other states. I have two siblings that are all but estranged who live in very red states who are probably lobbying for the kind of bills you’re talking about. 

As far as bathrooms I prefer complete privacy and single bathrooms would really be the best way to go. That would require a lot of redesigning places like airports but I think just about anything can be done if people want it bad enough.

[prairiewindmomma]

On a related note from the Google search I did re: calls for death from politicians, this link popped up which tracked the word “groomers”, noting huge spikes occurred right before political votes: https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/new-report-anti-lgbtq-grooming-narrative-surged-more-than-400-on-social-media-following-floridas-dont-say-gay-or-trans-law-as-social-platforms-enabled-extremist-politicians-and-their-allies-to-peddle-inflamatory-discriminatory-rhetoric

 

[KSera]

14 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I truly believe people are arguing in good faith based on their belief that it’s not that bad, because that is their experience.

I don't actually know that anything in this thread has been based on an argument that it's not that bad--just the laws banning all the things are bad enough--it's just awful to hear just how bad things actually are in the South. Seems like we've been discussing various issues and how they're best addressed, but I don't know any arguments in this thread that about things just not being that bad.

[City Mouse]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

You can't gauge a society's tolerance based on the extremes.

Yes and no.

The current extreme is quite public and vocal and seemingly large. When state governments become the extreme, how else do we gauge that society? 
It is considered normal now to be vocally discriminatory against certain groups. Used to be that the extremes existed but were more hidden - even the KKK wore hoods intentionally to hide their identity. Not anymore. The more vocal and public the better. Now the victims are the ones who have to hide.

[Heartstrings]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

I don't actually know that anything in this thread has been based on an argument that it's not that bad--just the laws banning all the things are bad enough--it's just awful to hear just how bad things actually are in the South. Seems like we've been discussing various issues and how they're best addressed, but I don't know any arguments in this thread that about things just not being that bad.

There has been a lot of minimizing and brushing away.  

[SHP]

11 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I don't understand why converting to individual no-gender bathrooms isn't happening all over the place.

It doesn't strike me as that big of a renovation to adapt "stalls" into more solid-walled secure cubicles; remove or create cubicles around existing urinals; and remove various doors and walls to make the hand-washing area seem more open and communal. Basically everything that has plumbing can probably stay exactly where it is. (Maybe every 2nd urinal would have to come out.)

On the door to each cubicle just label it with a little pictogram of a toilet or a urinal and let everybody choose whatever fixture suits their current need/preference.

1. It costs money

2. It would be one less thing that can used to create policy that excludes.

[bolt.]

44 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

As far as bathrooms I prefer complete privacy and single bathrooms would really be the best way to go. That would require a lot of redesigning places like airports but I think just about anything can be done if people want it bad enough.

I don't see much need for a significant redesign, if mere functionality is the goal. Sure, there might be better designs for aesthetic purposes, but for basics.

1. Remove stall "walls" and build real walls.

2. Replace stall doors with real doors, with ordinary handles and locks.

3. Leave toilets where they are: one inside each now-enclosed cubicle.

4. Leave the handwashing sinks where they are. Remove any overtly gendered decor choices from the handwashing area. Consider adding filling stations for water bottles, vending machines, or other elements that make this area seem more like a multi-use, public-feeling, multi-gender space. Decrease the sense that washing one's hands is a private activity (it's not).

5. Evaluate the spacing of urinals to see if it allows for the creation of solid-walled cubicles, possibly remove some urinals. Build walls and doors around as many urinals as space allows.

6. Redesign the "bathroom entrances" with considerably greater width, open sight lines and a feeling of connection between the handwashing area and the rest of the airport, rather than a feeling of twists and privacy. After all, there are lots of reasons a person might want to wash their hands.

7. Create signs at the former "entrances" that imply various washrooms are "that way" (and possibly that a handwashing area is also present in this direction). Signage should not imply that a washroom is being entered.

8. Sign each cubicle door with the "bathroom for anybody" pictogram and a "toilet" or "urinal" pictogram.

No plumbing required, only basic drywalling, framing, and various forms of finishing.

Edited June 20, 2023 by bolt.

[SHP]

24 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

We're in the process of creating a 5 year poan for parks and rec, and one of the biggest needs is accessible, family restrooms. Having a third option that has the features families need will help those who don't fit neatly into a gender box as well. The plan is to add bathrooms for this, not convert existing ones, unless we already have single stall restrooms where conversion is just changing a sign on the single ones from "men" or. "women" to "restroom". 

 

Rec sports is another issue. What we have right now is that u8 and below have no gender division, u12 and below are mixed leagues, but parents can request an all boy, all girl, or mixed team, and if there aren't enough boys or girls to make a whole team, they're mixed by default. Where possible, teams play other teams composed the same way, but it's not always possible, and larger leagues will crown champions in each subdivision. After that point, we really don't have rec level sports until you get to adults, and the school sports stuff picks up. Adult rec is co-ed. There basically ARE no rec sports for teens until they're old enough to join an adult team. It's either school (which is often highly competitive) or travel. 

 

 

 

I wish all recreational sports for kids were set up like you described. 

I think that the lack of recreational sports for teens is a huge issue all around, there are no options here either. Not all teens want or are able* to play for their school and not all families can afford travel sports.

*Back when we rode dinosaurs to school it was very common for the high school aged older siblings to watch the elementary aged siblings after school. That means they had to take the dino-bus home right after school, they did not have the option to stay for practices. The school release times were structured to ensure that all high school students would be dropped off or have time to walk/bike/drive home before the elementary school kids were. 

[Terabith]

I want to point out that I do not even live in a red state.  I live in a blue city in a purple state, but we are surrounded by red states.  The county (versus the city that we're in) five minutes away, however, is very red.  

It isn't healthy for trans people to think that people want to kill them, but they aren't WRONG. They are aware of laws in the South.  They have to be.  It is legitimately not safe for them to travel to these red states.   Even in blue states, where the culture is not the same as it is here, they are aware of the rural/ urban divide and that there are plenty of people in their state who feel the way the legislatures in the South do.  It can feel like gaslighting to be constantly told that they're exaggerating, because they know that all that has to happen is for DeSantis to win the presidency in 2024, and their blue state is suddenly not safe.  

[1234]

7 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I want to point out that I do not even live in a red state.  I live in a blue city in a purple state, but we are surrounded by red states.  The county (versus the city that we're in) five minutes away, however, is very red.  

It isn't healthy for trans people to think that people want to kill them, but they aren't WRONG. They are aware of laws in the South.  They have to be.  It is legitimately not safe for them to travel to these red states.   Even in blue states, where the culture is not the same as it is here, they are aware of the rural/ urban divide and that there are plenty of people in their state who feel the way the legislatures in the South do.  It can feel like gaslighting to be constantly told that they're exaggerating, because they know that all that has to happen is for DeSantis to win the presidency in 2024, and their blue state is suddenly not safe.  

Yes, my trans ds has already been physically assaulted so it’s wild to see some act like things aren’t really that bad. It’s why I’ve pretty much quit posting here about anything trans related. Things are very bad and many, like my own dc, feel things will get worse before they get better. It’s scary. 

[MercyA]

12 minutes ago, bolt. said:

5. Evaluate the spacing of urinals to see if it allows for the creation of solid-walled cubicles, possibly remove some urinals. Build walls and doors around as many urinals as space allows.

Yes. My DH, DD, and I were recently at a convention with unisex bathrooms. None of the urinals had stalls around them. Men either had to use a urinal while women were parading by or find a stall (most of which were occupied by women, which made some men uncomfortable going into that area).

I was at a huge rest stop many years ago that had solid brick stalls with full-length doors, floor to ceiling. It was LOVELY. It is doable.

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, MercyA said:

as at a huge rest stop many years ago that had solid brick stalls with full-length doors, floor to ceiling. It was LOVELY. It is doable.

Most pilot truck stops are like this.   It is very nice and one of the reasons that I try to stop at Pilots as much as possible when I travel, especially with my kids .  

[rebcoola]

19 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I want to point out that I do not even live in a red state.  I live in a blue city in a purple state, but we are surrounded by red states.  The county (versus the city that we're in) five minutes away, however, is very red.  

 

Shoot I live in one of the bluest states and some people cant get care because religious organizations own more than half of all the hospital-medical centers. 

Our area is red and interim mayor encouraged people to voice concerns over the all ages drag show happening on Easter and the restaurant was vandalized.  

People just are in their bubbles 

[Dmmetler]

Just now, Heartstrings said:

Most pilot truck stops are like this.   It is very nice and one of the reasons that I try to stop at Pilots as much as possible when I travel, especially with my kids .  

Truck stops in general seem to be nice and understand privacy needs. We stop at Love's quite a bit because the bathrooms feel safe, and a lot of the ones at rest areas just plain don't. 

[KSera]

59 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

Yes, my trans ds has already been physically assaulted so it’s wild to see some act like things aren’t really that bad. It’s why I’ve pretty much quit posting here about anything trans related. Things are very bad and many, like my own dc, feel things will get worse before they get better. It’s scary. 

I'm sorry that happened to your son. That is a fear of mine even in our very accepting area. It only takes one person, and he certainly runs into types like that occasionally. It's scary. I'm just still not seeing that anyone in this thread has said things really aren't that bad. The only thing I can see that might be interpreted that way is from the people who don't like the use of the word "genocide" for one reason or another. For me, it's because it's actively harmful to my ds's mental health. It seems like people are saying, "well too bad, we care more about using this word." I understand that for people not struggling in that way, they can handle the word. I get disheartened myself because people say they care about people's mental health, but then dimiss things that are actually harming other people's mental health if those things don't align with their own ideas (all the suicide talk that is clearly in opposition to best practice is an even bigger one).

**please don’t quote the personal parts 

Edited June 20, 2023 by KSera
Adding don’t quote

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Truck stops in general seem to be nice and understand privacy needs. We stop at Love's quite a bit because the bathrooms feel safe, and a lot of the ones at rest areas just plain don't. 

This is a good tip I didn't know. Thanks!

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

Maybe a smidge off topic, but I’m never sure how to handle this.  You say not to use the word because you feel it’s harmful to your child, but other trans voices ARE using it and saying it’s the right word to use.   What do we do then? I want to “listen to trans voices” but they aren’t speaking as one.   I don’t want to be a jerk to either group, but am to one side or the other no matter what. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Heartstrings

[KSera]

18 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Maybe a smidge off topic, but I’m never sure how to handle this.  You say not to use the word because you feel it’s harmful to your child, but other trans voices ARE using it and saying it’s the right word to use.   What do we do then? I want to “listen to trans voices” but they aren’t speaking as one.   I don’t want to be a jerk to either group, but am to one side or the other no matter what. 

I know what you’re saying, and understand the trickiness, but in this specific case, it’s not like not using that specific word in your speech is going to somehow remove your allyship. I’m not even saying stop using it, I’m simply saying that I disagree with saying that people who don’t like the word used that way are minimizing things in this thread.  In the case of suicide risk, just because a kid is being told by another trans person that they (kid) are very likely to kill themselves because they are trans doesn’t make it then not a problem and something other people should also freely say, just because it’s the common language in the community. And that is very common language that trans kids are hearing. It’s doing harm, and in the case of actual risk, I'm going to come down on first do no harm.

 

*as an aside @Heartstrings, could you remove the quote of me in your post above this? That's the part my "don't quote" request was referencing. Thanks!

[SKL]

What word are we talking about?

[ktgrok]

4 hours ago, Terabith said:

I think this is a topic that merits discussion.  I have  concerns about the left on this topic too.  Honestly, it feels like everything is so absolute that discussion is very hard. 
 

But the right wants LGBT people not to exist.  It’s not because they’re so mean and kids will kill themselves.  It’s because of laws that prohibit adults from transitioning.  It’s because of laws that say doctors, pharmacists, and EMTs can refuse ALL healthcare to anyone they choose.  Every single trans adult I know has been denied non transition related he’s care by medical professionals.  MANY TIMES.  Recently.  One friend was in a car accident and the EMTs were like, “Oh yeah, we’re not treating you, fag,” and laughed at them as they lay bleeding.  Dozens of doctors have refused to treat them for strep throat because they are trans.  All of that is legal.  
 

Texas is investigating families for child abuse if they allow kids to change their names socially, get gender non conforming haircuts, or wear gender non conforming clothing.

In addition, trans people all over the South are being threatened with prison if they pee in a public bathroom.  None of my adult trans friends are flamboyant, and they all pass as their chosen gender.  None of them are wearing tutus and gold bras.  My friend with XX chromosomes has muscles and a beard and lots of tattoos: Is he supposed to go into a women’s restroom?  Everyone would be very uncomfortable.  Trans people are not legally allowed to exist in public.  
 

Tennessee has anti drag laws written in such a way that anyone can be arrested for wearing gender non conforming clothing.  
 

Public facing professionals are not allowed to show any support to lgbt people.  You can’t refer to your same gender spouse or trans kids. You can’t wear anything deemed to have rainbows.  Books that have gay characters are not allowed to exist in libraries.  
 

And people who are running for local government positions have on their Facebook profile pictures of guns pointing at targets that look like people with gender non conforming clothing and slogans like, “Kill all the gays.”

THAT is why I say the right wants to commit cultural genocide on LGBT people.  I am not engaging in hyperbole.  I am simply taking people at their word.  

All this. If my options are drag shows I may or may not like, or people arrested for wearing non gender conorming clothes in public, I'm going to choose to have the drag shows. And that's where we are at here. They are using extremes to make vague laws that are then used on the real targets - regular LGBTQ people trying to just live their lives. 

3 hours ago, KSera said:

That's a shockingly wrong law and that's a place I think government can and should be involved in this instance--there should be laws that do not allow medical providers to decline emergency treatment to anyone. It seems like that should be one that could be passed,

Well, given that a law was passed that is the exact opposite....yeah, not likely we in the south will put in protections for people. We are doing the exact opposite. 

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

I want to point out that I do not even live in a red state.  I live in a blue city in a purple state, but we are surrounded by red states.  The county (versus the city that we're in) five minutes away, however, is very red.  

It isn't healthy for trans people to think that people want to kill them, but they aren't WRONG. 

exactly

[KSera]

10 minutes ago, SKL said:

What word are we talking about?

Genocide, specifically in the context of transgender people.

5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

All this. If my options are drag shows I may or may not like, or people arrested for wearing non gender conorming clothes in public, I'm going to choose to have the drag shows. And that's where we are at here. They are using extremes to make vague laws that are then used on the real targets - regular LGBTQ people trying to just live their lives.

Agree. I'm totally against the laws just because I think drag story time is a ridiculous thing for the government to be legislating about, but the side effects you mention make it far more sinister.

7 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Well, given that a law was passed that is the exact opposite....yeah, not likely we in the south will put in protections for people. We are doing the exact opposite. 

I was thinking/hoping this would rise to the federal level and federal protections could be put in place. It seems like a basic human right that no one can be denied emergency medical care, so it seems like something that could end up in the Supreme Court to me. Do you know if court cases have begun on the local level over it yet? I should probably look that up.

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

Genocide, specifically in the context of transgender people.

Agree. I'm totally against the laws just because I think drag story time is a ridiculous thing for the government to be legislating about, but the side effects you mention make it far more sinister.

I was thinking/hoping this would rise to the federal level and federal protections could be put in place. It seems like a basic human right that no one can be denied emergency medical care, so it seems like something that could end up in the Supreme Court to me. Do you know if court cases have begun on the local level over it yet? I should probably look that up.

I dont' know. I do wonder how this works given the EMTALA regulations that require a person to be stabilized. But does EMTALA apply to pre- hospital care or just ER? I'd have to look it up. 

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I dont' know. I do wonder how this works given the EMTALA regulations that require a person to be stabilized. But does EMTALA apply to pre- hospital care or just ER? I'd have to look it up. 

Good question. I just looked up a summary of the bill you're talking about and it's shocking to me that can be law anywhere in this country (but clearly it is). I have a lot I'd like to say about that, but I can't say it on chat and will have to take it to politics. I'll just say I don't think someone can win a presidential general election in this country while advocating (and in fact signing) a law like that. I really don't. That's truly disgusting and despicable.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

18 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I dont' know. I do wonder how this works given the EMTALA regulations that require a person to be stabilized. But does EMTALA apply to pre- hospital care or just ER? I'd have to look it up. 

EMTALA does not cover prehospital care. If a person is on hospital property they are required to evaluate and stabilize, and arrange a transfer to another facility if they don’t provide the definitive care the person needs.

I cannot find laws that allow denying treatment in any emergency situation under any circumstances.  But everything google is turning up for me is dated 2021 or earlier. I did find the Florida law, but since any agency, hospital or doctor who receives Medicaid or Medicare patients is held to federal law which supersedes state law, I am not sure how that would work. Also after reading the bill in Florida(https://m.flsenate.gov/session/bill/2023/1580/billtext/er/pdf)it still specifically states it does not apply to emergency care. As far as I can find, anyone who is refusing emergency care can lose their license or certification.  I have a friend who is an EMS attorney in Texas and I sent him a message(not that it matters but he identifies as queer and is a drag queen himself as well as a paramedic and attorney—and is one of my favorite people in the world) as he will know much much more than I do.  He keeps up to date on all of this.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[Terabith]

To be fair, none of the cases that I know of personally where people were denied medical treatment in hospitals or clinics were emergent.  

But it really, really sucks when you cannot get treated for strep throat or your thyroid explicitly because you are trans.  

[Faith-manor]

18 minutes ago, Terabith said:

To be fair, none of the cases that I know of personally where people were denied medical treatment in hospitals or clinics were emergent.  

But it really, really sucks when you cannot get treated for strep throat or your thyroid explicitly because you are trans.  

Agreed. There was a case of a lesbian couple here in Michigan being turned down for pediatric care for their daughter because the physician was against gay people. Way to punish the child.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/sex-couple-blames-discrimination-pediatrician-allegedly-refuses-newborn/story?id=29080781

Don't want to treat people? Don't be a doctor. Plain and simple.

[Melissa Louise]

5 hours ago, Terabith said:

 

 

But the right wants LGBT people not to exist.  It’s not because they’re so mean and kids will kill themselves.  It’s because of laws that prohibit adults from transitioning.  It’s because of laws that say doctors, pharmacists, and EMTs can refuse ALL healthcare to anyone they choose.  Every single trans adult I know has been denied non transition related he’s care by medical professionals.  MANY TIMES.  Recently.  One friend was in a car accident and the EMTs were like, “Oh yeah, we’re not treating you, fag,” and laughed at them as they lay bleeding.  Dozens of doctors have refused to treat them for strep throat because they are trans.  All of that is legal.  
 

 

Laws that allow HCP's to pick and choose who they treat, and use of homophobic slurs, are wrong. 

I hope your friend with the broken leg was able to be treated elsewhere.