Enrollment Cliff ???

[Frances]

3 hours ago, Clarice said:

That's great. I don't know why you're hung up on one example, though. I was hoping it would be part of a larger conversation, but you've been like a dog with a dog with a bone, focusing on a singular tree you don't like rather than the entire forest. 

I would have much preferred talking about those choices in context of the larger scheme. For example, King College of NY and Trinity, as mentioned earlier in this very thread, are struggling. However, Hillsdale and Patrick Henry are thriving. Wouldn't it be much more interesting to discuss why that is, rather than our discussion about LPNs vs RNs in one location?

Apprenticeships are seeing an increase. Colleges and universities are going to have compete against those for students as well. Will that affect enrollment from certain areas, i.e. rural or maybe even inner cities, where many students would financially struggle with tuition for a four or even two-year college?

The broader context I was going for from your example is the detrimental effects of young people being encouraged by the adults in their lives to get on a political bandwagon against supposed “wokeness” rather than being encouraged to use their critical thinking skills and have the maturity to be open to new experiences, rather than limiting their options and their future careers. It’s like common sense, reason, and critical thinking skills, not to mention facts, have been thrown out the window all over the place in order to score political points. 
 

And the even broader question of should colleges continue to lessen their standards and the level of education they provide in order to cater to families so as to survive? The idea that a student going to community college should not be exposed to new views or ideas such as in the world religion class you described and that the college needs to change it is abhorrent to me, right along with college administrators putting limits on how many students can fail or getting involved in grading in other ways. It’s all just part of the dumbing down of our education system that started with K12 and is now rapidly spreading to colleges and universities. Where it ends is likely a true college education only being available to the elite and a continued degradation of our democratic norms and institutions because we don’t have a well educated populace.

It does seem like lower level programs in a trade school are the right choice for the students and families you describe, rather than college, CC or otherwise. As a willingness to be open to new ideas and different ways of doing things and strong critical thinking skills are needed for higher level education and careers.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Frances

[notagoodfitafterall]

As someone else pointed out, it's going to be tricky to know which colleges will suffer most. Some LACs are doing well, but others are struggling. The same is true for CCs, and, I would guess, some bigger universities.

I know people talked about "canned courses," and we're seeing that already at some schools, but I wonder if any will take the opposite route. Offering more unique course, potentially more "hands-on" work, could be a great way for colleges to differentiate themselves. It's almost ironic to consider colleges having to sell themselves to prospective students, but that may well become the case.

To be honest, @Frances and @... both have good points. It begs the question, in this new day and age, will it be students or colleges who have to "suck it up" with regards to courses? The answer is likely related to the competition in the area, both the geographic area and the subject area.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, shoestringsandducttape said:

As someone else pointed out, it's going to be tricky to know which colleges will suffer most. Some LACs are doing well, but others are struggling. The same is true for CCs, and, I would guess, some bigger universities.

I know people talked about "canned courses," and we're seeing that already at some schools, but I wonder if any will take the opposite route. Offering more unique course, potentially more "hands-on" work, could be a great way for colleges to differentiate themselves. It's almost ironic to consider colleges having to sell themselves to prospective students, but that may well become the case.

To be honest, @Frances and @... both have good points. It begs the question, in this new day and age, will it be students or colleges who have to "suck it up" with regards to courses? The answer is likely related to the competition in the area, both the geographic area and the subject area.

I don’t think colleges trying to differentiate themselves from the pack and sell themselves to prospective students is anything new. What I think has been increasing for quite some time is college being seen as a product like any other and just a means to an end, while at the same time the costs has increased much more rapidly than most other expenses. Sadly, I don’t think most parents and students really care about being well educated or expanding their horizons. I think they just want the degree. My husband used to teach a science course for non-majors during the summer. And every summer on the first day of class he would ask how many students would just purchase the credit and their desired grade if they could and skip taking the class completely. And every summer, every single student raised their hand. It was also pretty eye opening what they were willing to pay. Most were willing to pay far more than the class cost, especially if they could buy an A. 

So I don’t doubt that many colleges will have to continue to cater to the lowest common denominator in order to survive and not risk invoking revolt and financial ruin by exposing students to new, uncomfortable ideas and demanding hard work and excellence. But we as a society will all suffer. Honestly, it makes me think we might be better off with the model used in some European countries like Germany where students are tracked into different paths from a relatively young age, so the range of students attending college is not as wide, and apprenticeships are a strong option. But at least there, the average student is getting a much better k12 education than here, so the dangers of a marginally educated populace are not quite the same.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Frances

[notagoodfitafterall]

8 minutes ago, Frances said:

I don’t think colleges trying to differentiate themselves from the pack and sell themselves to prospective students is anything new. What I think has been increasing for quite some time is college being seen as a product like any other and just a means to an end, while at the same time the costs has increased much more rapidly than most other expenses. Sadly, I don’t think most parents and students really care about being well educated or expanding their horizons. I think they just want the degree. My husband used to teach a science course for non-majors during the summer. And every summer on the first day of class he would ask how many students would just purchase the credit and their desired grade if they could and skip taking the class completely. And every summer, every single student raised their hand. It was also pretty eye opening what they were willing to pay. Most were willing to pay far more than the class cost, especially if they could buy an A. 

So I don’t doubt that many colleges will have to continue to cater to the lowest common denominator in order to survive and not risk invoking revolt and financial ruin by exposing students to new, uncomfortable ideas and demanding hard work and excellence. But we as a society will all suffer. Honestly, it makes me think we might be better off with the model used in some European countries like Germany where students are tracked into different paths from a relatively young age, so the range of students attending college is not as wide, and apprenticeships are a strong option. But at least there, the average student is getting a much better k12 education than here, so the dangers of a marginally educated populace are not quite the same.

I'm going to be brutally honest and say something very unpopular here: the only value I see in a college education is to get a degree and a job. For us, K-12 is about a broad education; it's about developing interests and inspiring further study. But college? By that point, it feels like the basics should be taught, and students should be ready to specialize. I don't necessarily care if my doctor has read Shakespeare as long as he knows better than to give my 9-year-old tetracycline, you know? 

In that way, I suppose I'm closer to preferring the British university system, where they take fewer electives/general education courses and more courses in their major. Like you said your husband experienced, students usually don't care for subjects outside their majors anyway.

[MagistraKennedy]

On 3/19/2023 at 9:22 PM, Lori D. said:

I know of three smaller LACs that are scrambling to stay alive financially, and if they do not raise needed funds, there is a good chance they will be shutting down within the next 2-3 years.

Universities have definitely shifted away from their philosophy/theology roots from several hundred years ago -- and moved to a "job training" education focus in the past 60 years. With sky-rocketed college costs/debt, and now the recent explosion of alternative ways of gaining that "job training" education focus, coupled with declining enrollment and employment shifts... Well, it's not surprising that smaller LACs may end up closing their doors, and larger universities may have to find new ways of staying relevant and competitive.

 

Not just universities ---- a small LAC in our area just announced restructuring of their academic programs, including canning their philosophy, theater, and physics programs. https://www.bellarmine.edu/news/archives/2023/03/22/academic-restructuring-under-new-strategic-vision-ensures-bellarmine-is-positioned-to-meet-regional-workforce-needs/

My husband said, "It's a business move." According to College Confidential, their endowment is low. 

It just makes me bananas --- eliminating philosophy and theatre majors at a liberal arts school seems bizarre. 

[Frances]

53 minutes ago, shoestringsandducttape said:

I'm going to be brutally honest and say something very unpopular here: the only value I see in a college education is to get a degree and a job. For us, K-12 is about a broad education; it's about developing interests and inspiring further study. But college? By that point, it feels like the basics should be taught, and students should be ready to specialize. I don't necessarily care if my doctor has read Shakespeare as long as he knows better than to give my 9-year-old tetracycline, you know? 

In that way, I suppose I'm closer to preferring the British university system, where they take fewer electives/general education courses and more courses in their major. Like you said your husband experienced, students usually don't care for subjects outside their majors anyway.

But what percentage of students in the US are getting an excellent, broad education in k12? The British system works because in general their college bound students have already covered the equivalent of US college distribution requirements. It’s the same for virtually every international student and colleague I’ve ever met from a wide variety of countries. But then again, most of them are from countries where students are tracked from a relatively young age and university admittance is based on a common set of exams and/or grades. The US, on the other hand, pretty much allows for almost infinite second chances and do-overs, as long as you can keep paying or borrowing, and almost anyone can get into some college, whether or not they are actually prepared to succeed. In fact, many CCs and even some universities have become places to try and make up for what was lacking in k12, as much as trying to actually provide a college education.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Frances

[notagoodfitafterall]

Honestly? I would say that a negligible number of students in the U.S. public school system are receiving a quality education, whether that quality is measured in a liberal arts sense or a STEM/trade sense. If I believed in our school system, my kids would be in it.

At the end of the day, though, it would be easier to get Richard Dawkins to convert to Christianity and Franklin Graham to convert to atheism than it would be to get the American public school system to offer a quality education. The first hurdle is that I don't think we could get a consensus on what a quality education is. However, I do believe in a person's ability to find his or her own interests and pursue it, and replacing the general education courses with more work in the major area is something colleges could and should consider on an individual basis.

With regards to the idea of do-overs, I agree we offer too many considering the cost. I have a whole tangent about pass rates, testing, etc. that really doesn't belong here. Unfortunately, we're likely going to see the opposite. With a smaller pool to draw students from, colleges will be pushing even harder for students to take and retake courses. 

[Roadrunner]

I love the British system, but I am a minority here in that opinion. My child would love to spend the next two years immersed in his interests instead of chasing gazillion APs. 

[notagoodfitafterall]

I'm torn with regards to the British 6th Form. The quality of the K-10 education really determines how willing I am to allow total specialization in 11th and 12 grade. Still, I'd rather see a kid actually want to learn than just study for a test. But, such is our system. 😕

[kokotg]

1 hour ago, shoestringsandducttape said:

However, I do believe in a person's ability to find his or her own interests and pursue it, and replacing the general education courses with more work in the major area is something colleges could and should consider on an individual basis.

 

Is that hard to find in the US, though? My oldest kid went to a liberal arts college thinking he wanted to take a big variety of classes, but he ended up taking almost all math and geography (and computer science and statistics, which are in the same department as math). It's fairly easy to get most core requirements for most schools out of the way in high school these days, between DE and AP credit. There are still some colleges that are very committed to a certain academic experience and that won't let you opt out of a broad core with credit from high school, but those are easy to avoid if that's not what you want (though the ones that come to mind are definitely not schools that are hurting for applicants...like UChicago springs to mind immediately as having a pretty rigid curriculum, from what I understand. My next kid is at Vanderbilt in the music school, so he's VERY specialized, but arts and sciences has fairly broad core requirements that you can't use AP credit to get out of (though you can use DE, interestingly). But at almost all of the LACs my oldest got into, there are either no requirements or the requirements are so broad that by the time you transfer in AP credit there's very little you'd HAVE to take outside your area of interest and in closely related departments. Like in theory the liberal arts experience is about a broad range of experiences, and you certainly CAN have that, but it's also, in my experience, about pretty loose requirements that give you the freedom to EITHER explore or specialize.

Edited March 27, 2023 by kokotg

[notagoodfitafterall]

1 minute ago, kokotg said:

Is that hard to find in the US, though? My kid went to a liberal arts college thinking he wanted to take a big variety of classes, but he ended up taking almost all math and geography (and computer science and statistics, which are in the same department as math). It's fairly easy to get most core requirements for most schools out of the way in high school these days, between DE and AP credit. There are still some colleges that are very committed to a certain academic experience and that won't let you opt out of a broad core with credit from high school, but those are easy to avoid if that's not what you want (though the ones that come to mind are definitely not schools that are hurting for applicants...like UChicago springs to mind immediately as having a pretty rigid curriculum, from what I understand. My kid is at Vanderbilt in the music school, so he's VERY specialized, but arts and sciences has fairly broad core requirements that you can't use AP credit to get out of (though you can use DE, interestingly). But at almost all of the LACs my oldest got into, there are either no requirements or the requirements are so broad that by the time you transfer in AP credit there's very little you'd HAVE to take outside your area of interest and in closely related departments. Like in theory the liberal arts experience is about a broad range of experiences, and you certainly CAN have that, but it's also, in my experience, about pretty loose requirements that give you the freedom to EITHER explore or specialize.

Are AP and DE really getting out of gen. ed. requirements? They seem to just push college off onto high schoolers. At this point, it feels like a four-year degree takes six years when all the DE and AP classes are factored into it. 

[kokotg]

1 minute ago, shoestringsandducttape said:

Are AP and DE really getting out of gen. ed. requirements? They seem to just push college off onto high schoolers. At this point, it feels like a four-year degree takes six years when all the DE and AP classes are factored into it. 

I guess I don't get what you're saying then...you want K-12 to be when kids get a rich and diverse education across different disciplines, but you also don't want them to do anything could be considered college level work in high school so that they can, in fact, focus on their major field more when they get to college? At any rate, there are plenty of LAC that have pretty much zero gen ed requirements if that's what someone wants.

[Roadrunner]

3 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I guess I don't get what you're saying then...you want K-12 to be when kids get a rich and diverse education across different disciplines, but you also don't want them to do anything could be considered college level work in high school so that they can, in fact, focus on their major field more when they get to college? At any rate, there are plenty of LAC that have pretty much zero gen ed requirements if that's what someone wants.

I like the idea of k-10 for general education and 11 and 12 more focused on perusing interests. I would  love my rising junior to be able to concentrate on 4-5 classes deeply  instead of having to chase full load (7 classes here) to prove rigor to colleges. I don’t mind Chicago style core but most colleges I think do general Ed very badly with random string of classes with no coherent story. 

[Frances]

29 minutes ago, shoestringsandducttape said:

Are AP and DE really getting out of gen. ed. requirements? They seem to just push college off onto high schoolers. At this point, it feels like a four-year degree takes six years when all the DE and AP classes are factored into it. 

Well it’s why university can be only three years in the UK. College bound high school students there are doing work quite equivalent to what some college students do here for distribution requirements. Plus, the quality of lots of AP and DE classes is quite low, so many students aren’t really doing college level work in high school. 

[notagoodfitafterall]

1 hour ago, kokotg said:

I guess I don't get what you're saying then...you want K-12 to be when kids get a rich and diverse education across different disciplines, but you also don't want them to do anything could be considered college level work in high school so that they can, in fact, focus on their major field more when they get to college? At any rate, there are plenty of LAC that have pretty much zero gen ed requirements if that's what someone wants.

I don't want them to chase exams. Learning shouldn't be about that. I also don't think there should have to be an exam to prove you don't need to study U.S. history or government or whatever in college. A high school diploma should be enough for those sorts of courses. I guess in my view we can pinky swear we really have covered 'x' and move on. I might be willing to agree with a high school level exam for subjects. 

I just, to me, APs and DEs should only be for classes that students enjoy and excel at. They should be how a student shows strengths, not what they do gen. ed. For example, a student wanting to go into engineering should be able to set herself apart by taking AP Calculus, AP Physics, and AP Chemistry. She shouldn't have to take AP Spanish to avoid taking a foreign language at school or AP World History to avoid history. 

ETA We already talk about humanities majors, especially English majors, taking "a dumbed down college algebra course." Why can't we say that if the SAT or ACT score was good enough to get into that college for that major, then there's no need for another class in math? Why are the options for that student either go way above the requirements for AP Calculus (or AP Precalculus now) or essentially retake algebra in college? It just feels senseless. 

 

To bring this back to the enrollment cliff, I'm hopeful the pressure for so many APs will drop, and students can focus only on being "advanced" in their preferred disciplines and can be, well, at the high school level in the other courses. 

[kokotg]

28 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I like the idea of k-10 for general education and 11 and 12 more focused on perusing interests. I would  love my rising junior to be able to concentrate on 4-5 classes deeply  instead of having to chase full load (7 classes here) to prove rigor to colleges. I don’t mind Chicago style core but most colleges I think do general Ed very badly with random string of classes with no coherent story. 

well, high school's a different issue, but I will see that I see a trend toward this kind of thing in a lot of schools already...my husband's old school had a program where kids could study veterinary stuff and another for agriculture. And I do think that kids who are aiming for selective colleges are expected to do just TOO MUCH in general. But that takes us back to population trends...it's just sort of what happens when too many kids are trying for too few spots. But I'd also say that I always want there to be plenty of space for kids who DON'T want to specialize early on and DON'T know what they want to do yet and do want to try out a lot of different things and get a broad education. Humanities departments shutting down at struggling colleges gives students fewer choices and leaves less room for those kinds of kids. 

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I like the idea of k-10 for general education and 11 and 12 more focused on perusing interests. I would  love my rising junior to be able to concentrate on 4-5 classes deeply  instead of having to chase full load (7 classes here) to prove rigor to colleges.

IB program does specialize partially in 11th and 12th grades.

[Roadrunner]

5 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

IB program does specialize partially in 11th and 12th grades.

I wish we had access to that. It’s offered only in one district around me and you have to live there to enroll. 

[Arcadia]

3 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I wish we had access to that. It’s offered only in one district around me and you have to live there to enroll. 

Its not offered in my school district either but we did check out the IB program at the private German school in Menlo Park.

[Roadrunner]

4 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Its not offered in my school district either but we did check out the IB program at the private German school in Menlo Park.

I hear they are amazing for liberal arts kids but not so good for math/science. My younger one would have loved it. 

[Arcadia]

18 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I hear they are amazing for liberal arts kids but not so good for math/science. My younger one would have loved it. 

My nephew did very well in his IB program. His higher level subjects are all math and sciences. He graduated from industrial engineering.  
 

ETA: he went into banking after graduation because it pays better. That’s typical of my relatives.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Arcadia

[SeaConquest]

On 3/25/2023 at 10:07 AM, Frances said:

The broader context I was going for from your example is the detrimental effects of young people being encouraged by the adults in their lives to get on a political bandwagon against supposed “wokeness” rather than being encouraged to use their critical thinking skills and have the maturity to be open to new experiences, rather than limiting their options and their future careers. It’s like common sense, reason, and critical thinking skills, not to mention facts, have been thrown out the window all over the place in order to score political points. 
 

And the even broader question of should colleges continue to lessen their standards and the level of education they provide in order to cater to families so as to survive? The idea that a student going to community college should not be exposed to new views or ideas such as in the world religion class you described and that the college needs to change it is abhorrent to me, right along with college administrators putting limits on how many students can fail or getting involved in grading in other ways. It’s all just part of the dumbing down of our education system that started with K12 and is now rapidly spreading to colleges and universities. Where it ends is likely a true college education only being available to the elite and a continued degradation of our democratic norms and institutions because we don’t have a well educated populace.

It does seem like lower level programs in a trade school are the right choice for the students and families you describe, rather than college, CC or otherwise. As a willingness to be open to new ideas and different ways of doing things and strong critical thinking skills are needed for higher level education and careers.

Not to mention that bias in our healthcare system is systemic and very well evidenced.  

Clarice wanted to discuss why certain institutions are thriving. Well, IMO the evidence regarding increased political polarization would suggest that college enrollment demographics are simply another extension of that phenomenon. You mentioned that, where you live, students are turning down higher paying careers rather than face some putatively "woke" class. And, where I live, students are more likely to stop attending schools in states that are hostile to social justice, LGBTQ+, reproductive rights, gun control, and the environment than they were 10 years ago (even if merit/scholarship money is thrown at them). IMHO, we will likely see enrollment remain steady at the colleges representing the more political extremes of the spectrum due to increasing polarization and confirmation bias.  

[Roadrunner]

Polarization is an issue but not the one I have seen sway college decisions among the moderate families. Crime seems to be more of a concern here.

I can tell you either political extreme usually doesn’t get you anywhere. CA campuses are so on the left that kids are returning home more conservative. I have decided if I want my kid to be a crazy liberal, I need to send him to a super conservative campus, and if I want him to be a crazy conservative, he is going to Berkeley. 🤣🤣🤣 I am only half joking.

 

[8filltheheart]

I think this conversation is completely overblown. Kids have opted against applying to colleges based on campus culture and locality and politics for a very long time.  Do you really believe today's issues are so newly unique that they will impact enrollment numbers significantly? I am definitely rolling my eyes. Seriously. Those issues are typically very high on a student's discernment list. The what's change by individual, but they have always existed. 

[Roadrunner]

17 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I think this conversation is completely overblown. Kids have opted against applying to colleges based on campus culture and locality and politics for a very long time.  Do you really believe today's issues are so newly unique that they will impact enrollment numbers significantly? I am definitely rolling my eyes. Seriously. Those issues are typically very high on a student's discernment list. The what's change by individual, but they have always existed. 

Oh yes. Conversations here among parents are usually about affordability, class availability, strength of the program, crime, housing issues. 

[SeaConquest]

1 hour ago, 8filltheheart said:

I think this conversation is completely overblown. Kids have opted against applying to colleges based on campus culture and locality and politics for a very long time.  Do you really believe today's issues are so newly unique that they will impact enrollment numbers significantly? I am definitely rolling my eyes. Seriously. Those issues are typically very high on a student's discernment list. The what's change by individual, but they have always existed. 

Just to be clear, I don't think increased political polarization is going to be a massive driver of college enrollment decisions; I was simply responding to Clarice's query to discuss a phenomenon she was seeing locally. IMO increased political polarization's overall affect re college enrollment is likely marginal, at best, but may help colleges that are less moderate politically to keep filling seats. That's all I was saying. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by SeaConquest

[chiguirre]

1 hour ago, 8filltheheart said:

I think this conversation is completely overblown. Kids have opted against applying to colleges based on campus culture and locality and politics for a very long time.  Do you really believe today's issues are so newly unique that they will impact enrollment numbers significantly? I am definitely rolling my eyes. Seriously. Those issues are typically very high on a student's discernment list. The what's change by individual, but they have always existed. 

I do believe that the abortion restrictions will impact enrollment numbers. The effect may take a few years to show, but I think women of my generation who experienced campus sexual assaults to either themselves or their friends will be very leery of sending a daughter to a state where she can't get an abortion quietly. Personally, I would tell my dd not to return to TX for college after the Navy. I'm not sure there's an equal number of pro-lifers in NY or CA eager to send their dds to TX to get sued by some busybody if they decide they need an abortion. Not everyone pays close attention to the news, so I think it will take a couple of years and some crazy headlines to see the effect, but I have no doubt that we will see it.

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

I do believe that the abortion restrictions will impact enrollment numbers. The effect may take a few years to show, but I think women of my generation who experienced campus sexual assaults to either themselves or their friends will be very leery of sending a daughter to a state where she can't get an abortion quietly. Personally, I would tell my dd not to return to TX for college after the Navy. I'm not sure there's an equal number of pro-lifers in NY or CA eager to send their dds to TX to get sued by some busybody if they decide they need an abortion. Not everyone pays close attention to the news, so I think it will take a couple of years and some crazy headlines to see the effect, but I have no doubt that we will see it.

Even more likely is that the lack of available/appropriate gyno care period, with or without pregnancy, will make young women and men think twice.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Sneezyone

[SanDiegoMom]

3 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Polarization is an issue but not the one I have seen sway college decisions among the moderate families. Crime seems to be more of a concern here.

I can tell you either political extreme usually doesn’t get you anywhere. CA campuses are so on the left that kids are returning home more conservative. I have decided if I want my kid to be a crazy liberal, I need to send him to a super conservative campus, and if I want him to be a crazy conservative, he is going to Berkeley. 🤣🤣🤣 I am only half joking.

 

So true.  We just went to Admitted Students Day for UC Irvine Law and the Federalist Table was not visited very much. They stressed how non-partisan they are and more of their members are center-left or centrist. 

And then there are the ones who are just there because its close, cheaper, they got scholarships, etc.  

We are center-left, but are much more centrist than when we lived in a predominantly Republican community.   

 

[Sneezyone]

For the love of God, CA is one of FIFTY states! We get it, it's big. I went to school there too. I didn't raise my kids there for a reason.

[Roadrunner]

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

For the love of God, CA is one of FIFTY states! We get it, it's big. I went to school there too. I didn't raise my kids there for a reason.

For the love of god, let us have a conversation we want to have. If you want to talk about other states, nobody is stopping you. We all love conversation and that’s why we are here. We discuss what we experience around us. If you don’t want to read it, don’t read, and please stop trying to shut us up. 🙄

[Sneezyone]

39 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

For the love of god, let us have a conversation we want to have. If you want to talk about other states, nobody is stopping you. We all love conversation and that’s why we are here. We discuss what we experience around us. If you don’t want to read it, don’t read, and please stop trying to shut us up. 🙄

If that's the conversation you want to have, start a thread on all things CA-related.

• I want to know how the enrollment/demographic cliff will affect CA?
• I want to know if testing matters outside CA?
• I want to know my kid's chances of admission at CA public colleges?
• I want to know about meeting ABCDE requirements in CA?
• I want to know whether any other states are like CA in this way?
• I want to know how the rest of the world lives without CA values?
• I want to know if all Californians recognize their insularity?

One of the best things about this place is discovering new things about all kinds of people/places. If you want to hyper focus on local concerns, that's more than fine, I've no issue with it. JUST SAY SO and other readers can scroll on by. Everyone gets notifications when comments are posted to a thread we're following. It'd save many folks a click or two to declare your stance/intentions.

[Lawyer&Mom]

3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

For the love of God, CA is one of FIFTY states! We get it, it's big. I went to school there too. I didn't raise my kids there for a reason.

It’s one of fifty states, but one in eight US residents lives in CA.  It seems fair for CA topics to play a large role in these threads. 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

It’s one of fifty states, but one in eight US residents lives in CA.  It seems fair for CA topics to play a large role in these threads. 

Do one of 8 forum members live there? Do one of 8 colleges in America call CA home? I’d think those things more relevant.

[Roadrunner]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Do one of 8 forum members live there? Do one of 8 colleges in America call CA home? I’d think those things more relevant.

For your sanity, please set up an ignore list. I just did. 

[Sneezyone]

24 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

For your sanity, please set up an ignore list. I just did. 

You’ve been on it for some time. Thanks for the tip tho. You’ve spent YEARS complaining about CA admissions only to have kiddo get into some of the best (which is AWESOME!!) and you’re still bitching. It’s sad. Truly. Take the win. Move on. It’s getting tacky. What apparently passes for moderate in CA is cray most everywhere else. It skews perceptions of reality in inappropriate ways. CA residents are disproportionately YOUNG with some 20% under 15. It’s not representative of the U.S. If I were a Californian, you know what’d I’d be thinking about? How to affordably EXPORT our kids to states with sinking college enrollments and how to load balance the statewide youth of CA and TX and FL with other locales. But, no, it’s all about the culture war narratives and not solutions. SMH. Pathetic.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Roadrunner]

Meanwhile in UK

https://www.ft.com/content/68e573c3-11f6-4243-85f1-d89428187372

UK higher education applicants to rise to 1mn a year by 2030, warns UCAS

[SanDiegoMom]

Can someone point me to the forum rules  that informs us which states we are and aren’t allowed to talk about? Apparently I missed some update.  

[daijobu]

On 3/26/2023 at 2:51 PM, shoestringsandducttape said:

I'm going to be brutally honest and say something very unpopular here: the only value I see in a college education is to get a degree and a job.

This thread about colleges turning to vocational training for lucrative careers reminds me of the classic scenes in Community where the wealth of the HVAC department exceeds the rest of the college. 

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by daijobu

[gstharr]

One way the UC and Cal State systems are preparing for the cliff is by easing cc transfer:  https://news.yahoo.com/uc-proposes-first-time-systemwide-020858562.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall.   

[Roadrunner]

It’s possible some will be bought out. Look at Northeastern campus at former Mills College. 

[Roadrunner]

3 minutes ago, gstharr said:

One way the UC and Cal State systems are preparing for the cliff is by easing cc transfer:  https://news.yahoo.com/uc-proposes-first-time-systemwide-020858562.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall.   

There are so many issues here. First the pandemic created a number of issues causing kids not to enroll into CCs (don’t get me started with what was happening in online classes at CCs at that time). Second, the number of applications at UCs are crazy and admissions rates plunging so it’s not like UCs are hurting for kids. The problem is everybody wants to go to the exact same 3 or 4 UCs and they can only take so many kids and house them. And dropping the SAT meant kids are applying straight into the system instead of going the CC route first as many uses to do. 
CC system is great and should be encouraged, but the state can’t make up its mind. On one hand they are pushing everybody into four year colleges and then screaming about declining CC enrollment. 
And how are they going to guarantee anything? If 100 kids qualify and they have only 20 spots, what happens? Even higher class sizes and no housing? That benefits nobody. 

[notagoodfitafterall]

Iowa Wesleyan University to close after nearly 2 centuries | Fox News

Another one bites the dust. 

I'm starting to wonder if we will see a slow drying up of colleges, or if we're about to see a cascade. 

[Sneezyone]

You can find the financial health of various colleges using the Forbes link posted in this thread. Some colleges will not do well as the number of available students dries up whether because of their location/amenities/programs or lack of fit/match with the students who are interested and willing to relocate but this isn't a surprise for anyone following higher ed trends. What do they offer? What is *their* hook? If you can't readily identify that and the school has neither the money nor the prestige to survive the lack of a hook, maybe look elsewhere.

[Roadrunner]

Another interesting example. Marymount California University closed a while back after years of falling enrollment. This is in a state where demand for education is huge as evidence by plummeting admissions rates for UCs. UCLA just snatched up it’s campus. 
https://www.highereddive.com/news/ucla-buys-former-marymount-california-campuses-for-80m/632818/

So at least here it’s not the demographic decline that is driving the closing of some schools. 

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

This has been incredibly interesting to read, as the parent of a child who will graduate at the end of this “cliff”.

Selfishly, I hope it means that DS will have a better shot at a competitive placement in a quality program. 

I am concerned about the impact of further narrowing students’ academic background by eliminating courses / majors in literature, philosophy, & the arts. Public K-12 schools have already lost so much depth & breadth, so much vibrancy - it would be a shame to see the same trend expand to the university level. 

[kirstenhill]

Another one for the collection of colleges closing in part due to declining enrollment. This one caught my eye because one of my high school besties went to school here: 

Stritch University closing: https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/stritch-university-in-wisconsin-is-closing-after-86-years/

Edited April 12, 2023 by kirstenhill
Typo

[daijobu]

21 hours ago, kirstenhill said:

Another one for the collection of colleges closing in part due to declining enrollment. This one caught my eye because one of my high school besties went to school here: 

Stritch University closing: https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/stritch-university-in-wisconsin-is-closing-after-86-years/

I'm  not familiar with Stritch, but it reminds me of another small Catholic college, Notre Dame de Namur, which shut down it's undergraduate school and sold much of its land to Stanford.  In contrast, Santa Clara University, another larger Catholic college, is doing pretty well, I think because they offer several engineering and CS degrees.  

[Arcadia]

9 minutes ago, daijobu said:

I'm  not familiar with Stritch, but it reminds me of another small Catholic college, Notre Dame de Namur, which shut down it's undergraduate school and sold much of its land to Stanford.  In contrast, Santa Clara University, another larger Catholic college, is doing pretty well, I think because they offer several engineering and CS degrees.  

SCU is used as a local “safety” by many of my neighbors in the south bay because its near home.  The tuition offer my friend got makes it similar to paying for UC with dorm. Also SCU does give preference to its “feeder schools”. There is a question on common app for whether an applicant is from certain schools.

[MagistraKennedy]

On 3/26/2023 at 9:37 PM, notagoodfitafterall said:

 

I just, to me, APs and DEs should only be for classes that students enjoy and excel at. They should be how a student shows strengths, not what they do gen. ed. For example, a student wanting to go into engineering should be able to set herself apart by taking AP Calculus, AP Physics, and AP Chemistry. She shouldn't have to take AP Spanish to avoid taking a foreign language at school or AP World History to avoid history. 

ETA We already talk about humanities majors, especially English majors, taking "a dumbed down college algebra course." Why can't we say that if the SAT or ACT score was good enough to get into that college for that major, then there's no need for another class in math? Why are the options for that student either go way above the requirements for AP Calculus (or AP Precalculus now) or essentially retake algebra in college? It just feels senseless. 

 

Wasn't this the way it was, years ago? I took 3 AP courses in high school --- AP Biology (brutal for all of us), AP US History, and AP English.
I took AP Bio because I thought I wanted to be a nurse (that panned out well), AP English because I loved literature, and to this day, I still don't know how I ended up in APUSH. Guess which class I scored high enough on the AP exam to earn credit? APUSH, of all things. And I really don't know a lot about US History. 😂

RE: SAT /ACT scores -- some schools already do this for English -- score XYZ on the English portion and you're catapulted over ENG 101 and into 102. I agree with you that math should be the same.