Constant disrespect

[happyWImom]

I know there are so many people on here asking questions about discipline, so here we go again!

I am about at the end of my rope with my dd. She can be very sweet and loving, but she also is constantly testing, pushing buttons, and has a huge attitude problem. Whatever I say, she has to argue about it. For instance, if I say "Go to your room-she'll say "I'll leave the livingroom, but not in my room, or If I say "Go to your room & shut the door" she'll say "Ill go to my room, but I'm keeping the door open." You get the picture-it's constant push and pull. Constantly questioning whatever I say, ask her to do, etc... She will never obey without question. It's not that I want her to behave like a little soldier or something, but this is exhausting. We do discipline. I take away privileges, cancel plans, etc... So, we aren't lax on things. I feel like I'm constantly on her though, and it doesn't seem to have a whole lot of effect. I try and talk to her about it-afterwards when she's not all worked up, and we pray about it. Then she goes into the "I'm so bad, I can't be good, etc... mantra". And, I feel like such a mean mom when I take away something that she loves, but I don't want to back down. Like this morning, she wanted to go play in the snow (LOVES to be outside) so I said yes, then told her to take off her ballet slippers first. Response: "Why? I'm just going to have boots on?" I told her just please do what I ask-response was to throw the shoes across the room. So then I told her she couldn't go outside. Of course she had a huge tantrum, said she wasn't going to pick the shoes up, wasn't going to her room....

Any ideas? I'm desparate.:confused:

[Jean in Newcastle]

Um. In my house if I said to "go to your room" she would go to her room even if I had to help her to do so. But I am a stickler that from very little that they need to give me full obedience. There are a couple of reasons I am a stickler for that - 1. there are times when their safety depends on obeying absolutely (ie. Get out of the street!) 2. I am also a stickler for not abusing my "power" as an authority figure 3. I believe that God wants children to obey their parents and half-obedience or talking back doesn't cut it.

[wide eyes & laughter]

that yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness? Brings sweetness? Do that. If it (whatever "it" is) is done matter of factly (without feeding into dc's drama) and without a trace of anger (wait if you are angry until you've cooled down enough to implement any discipline) then you should see sweetness, I would think.

 

I hesitate to say what we do for discipline here in public forum. But our way does yield sweetness and peace.... If interested, you can pm me and I will disclose all :001_smile:

[Maria/ME]

I don't have any super duper advice...just a BTDT commiseration. From your sig line I see your daughter is around 6 or so...I do think this may be a developmental stage. My daughter was about 8 when this started happening. Here are a few things we did, may or may not apply or be helpful in your case.

 

1) First, I became neutral in these situations. Not pleading, not exasperated (outwardly HA!) just firm and following through. In my case, my dd saw my waffling as a chink in my authority and she would flout it if she could. If she flouted my simple requests we followed through on taking privileges away. In her case an early bed time.

 

2) I became less picky on other things. I gave up some of my control. I would ask myself "Do I really need to have her do this or can she come up with an idea that would work just as well..." So I started to allow her "say" in things I could "let go" in. This gave her more control and independence.

 

3) Praise, praise, praise.

 

4) Tantrums. A huge lightbulb went on during one tantrum and I realized that when she is out of control she really wants me there for her. In the middle of a tantrum at her worst point she yelled "Help me! Help me!" and I just held her while she fell apart. Isnt' that what we all need? So now when she tantrums I wait nearby and gauge when she's ready to be held and talk.

 

5) Talk at neutral time. When things are going really well, I will sometimes bring up "Boy you were really upset the other day...how did you feel..." and often she realizes her emotions were out of control or that she was angry without good reason. We especially talk about the best way to talk to each other with respect. We ask "How do your father and I treat each other?" or "Do I speak that way to my friends?" "What would be a better way to say that." And when she is starting to gear up for a fight, I'll stop and say..."let's rethink how to say this nicer..."

 

6) Catch yourself. Stop before you say something inappropriate and let her know that you have to keep yourself in check also. Adults do to..not just kids...it's something we ALL work on.

 

 

These things didn't work overnight. Or in a week. Or in a month. Not a quick fix. But with consistency these things worked in our case. HOnestly, I had to change the way I thought and dealt with her. That was the hardest. I realized I was TOO much of a control freak. And that I could LIGHTEN UP already.

 

But that's just me...hope it works out...remember this is a phase and you'll get through it!

[wide eyes & laughter]

I don't have any super duper advice...just a BTDT commiseration. From your sig line I see your daughter is around 6 or so...I do think this may be a developmental stage. My daughter was about 8 when this started happening. Here are a few things we did, may or may not apply or be helpful in your case.

 

1) First, I became neutral in these situations. Not pleading, not exasperated (outwardly HA!) just firm and following through. In my case, my dd saw my waffling as a chink in my authority and she would flout it if she could. If she flouted my simple requests we followed through on taking privileges away. In her case an early bed time.

 

2) I became less picky on other things. I gave up some of my control. I would ask myself "Do I really need to have her do this or can she come up with an idea that would work just as well..." So I started to allow her "say" in things I could "let go" in. This gave her more control and independence.

 

3) Praise, praise, praise.

 

4) Tantrums. A huge lightbulb went on during one tantrum and I realized that when she is out of control she really wants me there for her. In the middle of a tantrum at her worst point she yelled "Help me! Help me!" and I just held her while she fell apart. Isnt' that what we all need? So now when she tantrums I wait nearby and gauge when she's ready to be held and talk.

 

5) Talk at neutral time. When things are going really well, I will sometimes bring up "Boy you were really upset the other day...how did you feel..." and often she realizes her emotions were out of control or that she was angry without good reason. We especially talk about the best way to talk to each other with respect. We ask "How do your father and I treat each other?" or "Do I speak that way to my friends?" "What would be a better way to say that." And when she is starting to gear up for a fight, I'll stop and say..."let's rethink how to say this nicer..."

 

6) Catch yourself. Stop before you say something inappropriate and let her know that you have to keep yourself in check also. Adults do to..not just kids...it's something we ALL work on.

 

 

These things didn't work overnight. Or in a week. Or in a month. Not a quick fix. But with consistency these things worked in our case. HOnestly, I had to change the way I thought and dealt with her. That was the hardest. I realized I was TOO much of a control freak. And that I could LIGHTEN UP already.

 

But that's just me...hope it works out...remember this is a phase and you'll get through it!

 

I agree with all and think this is great advice - to see ways to "come along side" and help dc to express self with words.

 

I would also caution not to see this as a "phase". I've known a few adults who throw fits and have lots of drama in their lives. Apparently they never outgrew this phase?:glare:

[jld]

Considering she's six years old, I would just try to be very loving with her. Talk about why what she is doing bothers you, with lots of hugs and I love you so muches, hold her on your lap while you're talking to her, and listen carefully and thoughtfully when she tells you why she does what she does. Offer "do-overs". Give in when you can. Try to see things from her point of view. One book some parents like is Kids Are Worth It by Barbara Coloroso.

 

Obedient little kids do not necessarily turn out to be obedient older kids. Focus more on building a relationship with her by listening and respecting her point of view, and then explaining yours. Hold your ground when you really need to, but don't let your own pride or stubbornness guide you.

 

And, of course, if this all sounds crazy, feel free to ignore this post!:)

[AnnetteB]

hmm, yes, obedience is a lesson that is best learned early on. Mine get a message early on that we do nothing if they are not obedient. No outdoor play if you are not dressed warmly, no trip to the park or library if chores and schoolwork are not complete, no outing if seatbelts aren't fastened...we just sit in the car and I hum quietly... it cracks the older kids up to see their younger sibs even try to get away with stuff. Our youngest doesn't know why he runs for his room when I send him there and start to count 1...2....He just knows that the other kids go to their room immediately if they are ordered thus. lol My kids know that I am not opposed to spanking if they do something really dangerous or terribly mean, so they don't do it. In actual practice I haven't had to spank some of them at all and only the orneriest a handful of times when he was younger. (he is 24 now) I do believe that I would have thrown those ballet shoes into the donate bag and that would be the end of that little tantrum. I have to be firm or my nine would walk all over me. I hope I don't sound too mean, my kids know that they are loved and we are an extremely peaceful bunch of people because we work this sort of stuff out early on when they can easily learn the whole cause and effect/action and consequence relationship.

[happyWImom]

Um. In my house if I said to "go to your room" she would go to her room even if I had to help her to do so. But I am a stickler that from very little that they need to give me full obedience. There are a couple of reasons I am a stickler for that - 1. there are times when their safety depends on obeying absolutely (ie. Get out of the street!) 2. I am also a stickler for not abusing my "power" as an authority figure 3. I believe that God wants children to obey their parents and half-obedience or talking back doesn't cut it.

 

Yes, we have talked about this a lot! That we ask you to do things or not to do things for a reason, not to be mean, and that they need to do it without question because it could become a safety issue sometime. I used several Little House on the Praire examples-"If Laura would have asked Ma "why?", the bear would have eaten them!" Also, we do very much stress that God wants them to obey, Honor thy father and mother. And if there is out and out direct disobedience, we do get the paddle. We don't use it much, because overuse can become a problem I know. I guess we just have to stick firmly to things an keep repeating. Right?

How did you demand the obedience?

[Garga]

It's almost impossible to give advice without knowing you and your family. Some questions:

 

1. What is your tone of voice when talking to her? Is it harsh? Critical? Exasperated? Wimpy?

 

I have one friend who speaks very harshly to her kids, and has discipline trouble. I have another friend who speaks very gently to her kids, and has discipline trouble. The parents who speak calm and matter of fact have the best results.

 

2. Do you lavish her with love other times?

 

Randomly throughout the day, I'll tell one of my sons (3 and 6) that it's hug time and give them a great big hug. Then, I'll let them sit next to me for awhile with my arm around their shoulder. We've had DRAMATIC improvements in attitude since I started doing that.

 

HTH, FWIW

[Jenn in Mo]

I'm not a big fan of explaining my point of view to a 6 year old child. Um, no. I'm the parent. You're the child. You can do what I say the first time, with a cheerful yes ma'am, or I will help you do what I say. There is not an option here. ANY back talk or questioning of my authority will result in further discipline. We don't discuss it. I don't would not explain myself to a child questioning me. It's a done deal. Much later, when all was settled, I might explain why I requested what I requested and re-emphasize the fact that it is not necessary for her to know why I say what I say, it is only necessary for her to honor Mama and trust that I am making decisions that I feel are best for her.

 

In the slippers situation, I would have done as you did and say "Since you cannot obey with a cheerful attitude, you will not be going outside until after lunch today." If she threw a fit, I'd tell her she could take her fit to her bedroom and tell her that her ugly behaviour had just cost her the privilege of going outside for the rest of the day, tomorrow, the next day, the week...whatever. If she had trouble finding her bedroom, I'd help her find it. If she sassed me through any of this, she'd feel a spanking.

 

I have to say though, my children do not sass. I don't think they ever have. That is not bragging....some of mine are strong-willed, some are stubborn, some are sneaky. All of mine are children and are thus fiesty, spicy, and full of childishness. They are far from perfect. I say this only to convey to you that it is not a given fact of life, nor does it have to be acceptable in any form. Mine act up, but they always know to show respect. They always have the security of knowing mom will handle it. I think sometimes kids push and push the limits, not because they are bad kids at all, but because they want a firm, clearly marked out line. They will push until they find it. My kids are happy. They do not fear me. We have a happy household where we respect each other.

 

I know it is exhausting. I KNOW it is exhausting. Stay with this. Stay firm. Stay unemotional in the middle of the discipline situation. It is not personal. Think of it more as an 'establishing of a new way of doing things.' New habits are hard to establish sometimes, but they don't get easier by being lenient. Help her establish them and don't give in....at all.

 

There are awesome books.....Don't Make Me Count to Three, Learning with Love and Logic, anything by Elizabeth Pantley, and gazillions more which will probably be recommended. You can do this! You really can. This will change, but you'll have to change it.

[SonshineLearner]

So, I'm seeing your post, and maybe you're like me....Nice? Too nice? I'm not passive, but I'm very easy going. I really see the way I like to parent, work with my two oldest children. (step) They were partly raised before I got them (6 & 9) and they had some sadness happen before my husband and I were married. (The sadness is that their parents had divorced...and they were in daycare which they hated.) SO, I was a welcomed person in their life, since they got to stay at home instead of daycare. SO, I'm not sure how these things affected how they are, but they just obey. Maybe once every 6 months, I say something corrective, and they are positive in their response.

 

On the other hand, my 10 year old sounds like your daughter. Dramatic, and would throw her ballet shoes if she didn't get her way! I have spanked her, and would again, and yes it does help to change their attitude. BUT, if you're like me....at all...I don't want to spank her every day. I don't ever spank out of anger, and so I can decide what to do. For us, instead of spanking...we usually talk about her heart change...what we need from her...how it can benefit her now and later.

 

If you want an attitude change, and you would like something that helps without spanking...try work. For us, it means that my husband will make her work until she's no longer stubborn. For me, it's hard, because I would quit the attitude after the first 15 minutes...or maybe an hour! For her, the first time took all day, literally. All she had to do..was the first job (this was working outside with my husband moving bricks or wood or something like that) and then do the next job without yelling or stomping or something like that. They worked all day long, probably a total of something like 9 hrs...(with a lunch break) and finally at the almost end of the day, he told her to do her next chore, and she did it without any attitude.

 

This is the funny thing, I would HATE someone who did this to/for me, and she LOVES him for his efforts. She actually respects his strictness. Don't think this makes it so she never has an attitude, but it's great for making a huge step in the right direction. You have to commit to following through.

 

Lately, I started having her do time out with her hands on her head. I just do small increments with her...2 minutes with a minutes added if she argues... For us, it's working so far...because I only use it for attitude...and she's got the ability to stop the consequence early. (And, I can apply this with no guilt...so I don't go back on my word. I mean...when it's something that's hard to enforce, you're more likely to lighten up later on the consequence.)

You really can't spank a child into a good attitude. Well, that's my opinion. (If you do spank them and they catch a good attitude (one that isn't just out of fear of another spank) it's because of being willing to listen, not just a spanking)

 

The positive is that if you can help them control themselves without anyone being too bitter (you included) that when she gets older... She can be a strong even-tempered leader! :-) That's what I like to think about...is what this is shaping her to be.

 

Carrie:-)

[Garga]

You asked someone how they demand the obedience. Here's what I started doing. It's on the raisinggodlytomatoes.com webside. I don't agree with a number of things on that website, but this part I do agree with and it works for us:

 

If the child is doing a behavior you don't like, (like throwing the shoes), have them repeat the behavior the correct way over and over until they do it the correct way on their own.

 

She throws the shoes. You say, CALMLY, "DD, walk across the room and pick up your shoes." She doesn't. You keep saying it until she does, no matter how long it takes. She finally STOMPS across the room and snatches them up. You tell her to put them down again. She throws them down.

 

You tell her to go back to where she started and then walk across the floor and pick up the shoes. There could be more stomping, etc. You KEEP DOING THIS until she calmly walks across the floor and picks up the shoes gently.

 

THEN, you tell her to put them on. Then you go aaalll the way back to where this started and tell her to "take off the shoes so you can put on your boots." And you keep having her take them off and put them on until she does it nicely.

 

Do this for a few days and it'll get old fast. Once she realizes she'll have to do everything 5 times over until she does it nicely, she'll start doing it nicely right away.

 

Biggest thing: be consistent about making her do-over. Let it take as long as it takes! Do it over for the next hour if need be. Put in the time now and it will pay off later. (And also STAY COMPLETELY CALM THE WHOLE TIME.)

 

This worked like magic for my 6 year old. It only took a couple of days.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Garga_

[Jenn in Mo]

I guess we just have to stick firmly to things an keep repeating. Right?

How did you demand the obedience?

 

I know this wasn't for me, but I can't help myself.....I would urge you to NOT repeat yourself. James Dobson wrote in one of his books about a little boy whose mother was calling for him to come here. He ignored her. She continued to repeat and he continued to ignore until her voice reached a certain pitch and decibel. He knew when she "really meant it". Until her voice reached that point, he knew he didn't have to obey.

 

Say it once. Cheerful obedience or consequences. After giving them so many chances before, it can seem almost unfair to expect first time obedience. It's not unfair. If anything, it is unfair to not give them this skill...this lesson in self-control and self-discipline.

 

One more thing: mine say "Yes, Ma'am" after they are given instructions as a way to tell me, "I hear you and I am going to obey." Any form of it "Yes, mom" or even just "okay" are very helpful, imo. I think it is important they acknowledge that they heard you and plan on obeying.

[coffeefreak]

I have a book called, "Good and Angry," that I've been reading for 3 years:lol:. It is great and backs up what Maria was telling you. They have it at Amazon and CBD.

Blessings (from a Mom whose BTDT and STDT sometimes:glare:)!

Dorinda

[OHGrandma]

.... I guess we just have to stick firmly to things an keep repeating. Right?

How did you demand the obedience?

 

Be careful about how you keep repeating. Repetitive commands without enforcement will lead the child to think she can continue to ignore or disobey.

You gave this as an example:

Like this morning, she wanted to go play in the snow (LOVES to be outside) so I said yes, then told her to take off her ballet slippers first. Response: "Why? I'm just going to have boots on?" I told her just please do what I ask-response was to throw the shoes across the room. So then I told her she couldn't go outside. Of course she had a huge tantrum, said she wasn't going to pick the shoes up, wasn't going to her room....

I would try this:

Like this morning, she wanted to go play in the snow so I said yes, then told her to take off her ballet slippers first. Response: "Why? I'm just going to have boots on?" Your response: Leave the room, be sure the child can not or will not go out at that point. Let the child come after you. Ignore her. When she finally asks again about going outside, briefly state that she had not obeyed and would not be going out now. Do not engage in any more discussion about going out, discussion is closed.

[Pongo]

Um. In my house if I said to "go to your room" she would go to her room even if I had to help her to do so.

 

This is exactly what we do. We use a method I found out about years ago called, Get Off Your Butt Parenting I have to say I have three different personalities to deal with and this works.

[Danestress]

and then I would address and discipline each and every time without failure.

 

I think what happens is that parents don't want to really punish every time when it feels like it's absolutely constant.

 

 

So I would find a way to have a small consequence and impose it absolutely every single time she is defiant. Asking, "why" isn't defiant in my book, but refusing to comply unless you agree with the answer to "why" is.

 

When my DS was this age, I hated feeling like the meanest Mom in the world by punishing every time he was mouthy. So I came on the idea of putting 20 nickles in a jar and telling him he could have all the money left over at the end of the week. You might have to increase the stakes - maybe 50 dimes would be better if you have a bad problem and can afford to part with the money:) But the thing is, you have to take that dime out every single time she is rude, bossy, defiant, argumentative etc. It just be totally consistent.

She has to understand that you are going to give her lots of instructions, and that she's to comply immediately without argument or she will lose a dime. Tell her right up front - "we are practicing because what I want is immediate compliance."

 

The other thing that might work is to have a mandatory 5 minute time out every time. But every. single. time. She may spend a lot of time in a chair for a while. The thing I like about the dime idea is that it's totally in my control. I didn't end up arguing about it. I just took the dime out. The time out feels more punative, and requires you to MAKE her sit in time out.

 

I will say that it only took a couple of weeks of the nickle thing to totally break my son of some bad habits. And I didn't feel like we had to do it forever. It was just for a period to practice polite and respectful speech. My other two sons were so naturally good natured and compliant that I sometimes forget that not all children come that way:)

 

I also think sometimes Moms just talk too much - especially to their daughters. They explain, they justify, they give reasons and heart felt arguments, they try to get the daughter to talk about her feelings. Blah blah. There really honestly isn't that much to talk about. You are the parent. You are in charge. She is six. She is not in charge. Unless you honestly believe you are a controlling person and you need to reign that in some, you need to just matter of factly let her know that she's no longer going to side line the day with drama, arguing, and a need to force you to justify yourself. She's going to obey or suffer a small consequence.

[Erica in PA]

I can only offer you a bit of commiseration. I have posted here before about my dd, who is also 6 years old, and sounds quite a bit like your dd. It is very difficult, because she is so demanding, and just refuses to ever be "put in her place." She is constantly asserting herself, and refusing to comply with things that make her feel as though she's being told what to do. She cannot stand being instructed or corrected, no matter how sweetly or how authoritatively it's done. It's like she thinks she is an adult, and dh's and my equal instead of our child, so she balks at being treated like the child she is.

 

At this point, I really feel that the best thing I can do is pray for my dd, because I really think it's a heart issue between her and God. Of course I try my best to be consistent with discipline, and to give her lots of positive attention as well, but ultimately, her heart needs to change through maturity and through God's guidance.

[hornblower]

Wow. Eye-opening thread.

 

I don't parent at all like most of what's been written here. :001_huh:

I have one 'spirited' kid and one more normal 'just a kid' kid; my kids are polite and well behaved. I don't really think about discipline, don't use time-outs, don't withdraw privileges.

 

I do keep my kids close. I do talk with them & listen to them. I explain why I ask certain things be done. I treat them the way I want to be treated.

 

This other stuff is very strange to me.

[Tami]

I would recommend checking out the resources from Family Tools -- particularly the PEGS board. This can get you an instant program for better behavior with built-in consequences and rewards: Choose-A-Chore and Pick-A-Privilege.

 

Good stuff, and I think it would really help you out! It has been invaluable to our family - we have used it for years, and it can grow and change as your family does.

[Goldilocks]

I have recently started reading a couple of books on Oppositional Defiance Disorder after learning that my 6 yo DD probably has this. What struck me in your post was the reference to constantly arguing and refusing to do as you ask. I am still working my way through the books but understanding that my dd is emotionally immature and doing the best she can in the situation has helped me stay calm so that I can teach her the right way to react. I have also learned that her responses are based on the (false) belief that I don't love her. This is wy she is so dramatic when "bad" things happen to her. In her mind it is proof that I don't love her.

 

I don't know if this is true of your daughter or not, just thought I would throw it out there. While some of the advice you have received is great, a lot of it just wouldn't work with a child with ODD. It would just add fuel to the fire.

[SonshineLearner]

Hornblower,

Maybe this is the case between having Siberian Huskies and What's an easier submissive dog? EXCEPT when you have babies you don't get to choose the breed. I mean, with children that you can explain things to and they will listen or listen and choose to talk until you get to an agreement..that's great! But, what you do with a child who refuses to listen...or listens agrees and then just does what they want to....

Carrie

[bumbledeb]

Just a thought, from my own experiences: I think part of the reason I don't get this kind of defiance from my kids is that they trust that when I do insist upon something (which is very rare) that it is something really important which actually matters.

 

I remember reading once that the most obedient children are those that are not asked to be obedient too often.

 

Regarding the example given, I wouldn't have asked dd to take off her ballet shoes. If she wanted to wear them inside her boots I'd have maybe mentioned one or two problems that might arise from that choice (if I happened to think there were any worth mentioning) but I'd have been happy to go ahead and let her wear them if she wanted to.

 

I can imagine it must be very frustrating for children to have their lives micro-managed and that frustration could lead to defiance.

[hornblower]

Hornblower,

Maybe this is the case between having Siberian Huskies and What's an easier submissive dog?

 

LOL. I have a malamute - I know them stubborn northern breeds!

 

And that's why I mentioned I have a spirited kid. She's more like a malamute X terrier with a bit of border collie mixed in (stubborn, obsessive & too smart for her own good). :lol: My son is a bit easier - I think more of a retriever - but I think only b/e I'm comparing to her. There's a good reason our kids are almost 4y apart - I really thought I wouldn't have another with such a tough cookie child.

 

Build a strong relationship.

Show wise, benevolent leadership.

Reward the good.

Ignore the bad.

Interrupt and redirect unsafe.

Control access to problem issues until self control is established.

 

Karen Pryor's Don't Shoot the Dog is what got me started.... and no, it's not about dog training. It's in the La Leche League parenting library.

[Tami]

I was just curious how this answers the poster's question or is supportive to those who are struggling. It would feel like a smack in the head to me. ;)

 

Are you saying that if others were good parents like you, they would have polite and well-behaved children, or what is your point of your post?

 

Wow. Eye-opening thread.

 

I don't parent at all like most of what's been written here. :001_huh:

I have one 'spirited' kid and one more normal 'just a kid' kid; my kids are polite and well behaved. I don't really think about discipline, don't use time-outs, don't withdraw privileges.

 

I do keep my kids close. I do talk with them & listen to them. I explain why I ask certain things be done. I treat them the way I want to be treated.

 

This other stuff is very strange to me.

[Jenn in Mo]

Reward the good.

Ignore the bad.

 

Ignoring the bad is where we differ. But I agree with the rest. You mentioned in your earlier post something about respecting them and basically treating them the way you would like to be treated. In this area, I'd have to say that even as an adult, I don't want my bad ignored. I want corrected in love. If someone who loves me sees me doing something bad, I would be hurt if I later realized my error and realized they didn't step in with loving correction.

 

Method does make a difference, of course. As an adult, I've been corrected by those who were lovingly concerned for me and I've been corrected by those who "knew better" than me. But I'd have to say that even the hurtful correction I've known as an adult was still an opportunity for me to grow.

[hornblower]

I was just curious how this answers the poster's question or is supportive to those who are struggling. It would feel like a smack in the head to me. ;)

 

Are you saying that if others were good parents like you, they would have polite and well-behaved children, or what is your point of your post?

 

I sincerely apologize if that's the way it came across as it was not my intention.

 

My point was that someone has said I've used tool A on this job and it's not working & she got lots of responses for how to to use tool A differently - faster, harder, with the other end ;)

 

I merely wished to point out that I have found the same result can be achieved without using tool A at all.

 

It's the 'if all you have is a hammer, you think everything needs nailing' problem. I suggest other tools may be helpful.

 

And I was merely expressing my surprise at the number of people who seem to use tool A as I don't know many people IRL who do.

 

No offense. Different roads, different choices.

 

warmly,

Hornblower

[Maria/ME]

I think someone mentioned this already (or was that a different thread? Losing track...) but we are all of different backgrounds, and our kids are all different, obviously. So child A could respond to parent A VERY VERY differently than they would respond to parent B, if they had that parent. Now through personality/genetics/experience in the background of all parents and children.

 

Does that make sense?I think we can only say "In my case...." because it may or may not work for another person.There are dynamics involved that are very different in every case. I don't like how my bff parents, it doesn't seem to work at all. I think "If I had that kid...." but the fact is, not only do I NOT have that child, if I did, I may do what I think is best and it MAY NOT WORK...even if it works for my child. By friends child will NOT react to me in the same way my child does.

 

Perhaps if we kept that in mind.....?

[happyWImom]

I really appreciate everyone's advice! I am trying the "work punishment" right now on my son-and I love it! He is actually being very cheerful about it. Hey, anything that gets the chores done!

 

Dd was told that if she had good behavior until after lunch she could go outside, so that's where she is now.

 

A lot of the advice is great, because it tells me things I already know, but don't always think about. Like the tone of voice-I try, but realize it's sooo important, because if I'm getting her to try and have self-control but I'm always yelling-doesn't work.

 

Anyway-thanks everyone!:001_smile::001_smile::001_smile:

[Peela]

I would pick you battles and make sure you are not micro managing. Everyone has different parenting styles and often what we think is important is really not so important in the big scheme of things, and it helps the whole situation to learn to let the little stuff slide. Let them learn from their own mistakes more..natural consequences and all that.

You also might have a very fiesty young girl there...and perhaps she is not feeling respected, so she is fighting for her perceived rights? Its natural.

I would do more stuff to build a good relationship with her, so she doesn't see you as getting in the way of having a good time. Have a good time with her as well.

Then, the discipline side of things can be easier because it doesn't dominate your lives. It doesnt seem like she feels you are on he side- you are her adversary instead. Some kids like it that way- they enjoy the banter- but I think its important as a parent not to fall into that pattern too much.

[Maria/ME]

Like the tone of voice-I try, but realize it's sooo important, because if I'm getting her to try and have self-control but I'm always yelling-doesn't work.

 

 

 

A good point, as my dh pulled me aside and told me that I SOUND irritable even if I don't mean it. It's fine for him, he 'gets' me...but he felt it was hard on our daughter...

[Barb_]

How did you demand the obedience?

 

Develop a voice of authority. Moms will often soften their voices or go shrill when they want a child to do something. Consciously lower your pitch (dropping your chin and raising just your eyes will help with this) *and* your volume while knitting your brows and slightly squinting your eyes. Act like you mean business. Don't say please when you mean, "Do it now!" Pleases are reserved for when something is actually a request. It is okay to issue commands as a parent. I have a feeling you aren't comfortable with your position of authority and your daughter can sense that.

 

Barb

[Kay in Cal]

Honestly, I've come to the conclusion that it is next to impossible to second-guess the parenting of others. There may be some basics most people can agree on, but so much is dependant on personality. The same parenting styles do not always work the same on different children. I know some people don't "believe in" ADHD, SID, asynchronous development, giftedness, learning disabilities, etc... but a couple of weeks with some very challenging kids and they would.

 

Love, firm boundaries, respect, calm voices--I think most of us would agree these are good things. But they don't always produce the same results. Doesn't mean you are parenting wrong, just that you have a different child. I would be very hesitant listening to anyone who claims that thier method will "always without fail" work. But remember-- YMMV! :D

[Laura Corin]

Develop a voice of authority. .... Don't say please when you mean, "Do it now!" Pleases are reserved for when something is actually a request. It is okay to issue commands as a parent. I have a feeling you aren't comfortable with your position of authority and your daughter can sense that.

 

Barb

 

I always say 'please' to my children (well, I try - sometimes I fail). I want to teach them by example that one can demand in a polite manner, just as in the workplace a manager will say 'please' to a subordinate, but the subordinate still knows that s/he has no choice.

 

Laura

[Barb_]

I always say 'please' to my children (well, I try - sometimes I fail). I want to teach them by example that one can demand in a polite manner, just as in the workplace a manager will say 'please' to a subordinate, but the subordinate still knows that s/he has no choice.

 

Laura

 

If I want my child to put their dishes in the sink I'll say, "Honey, please remember to put your dishes in the sink." But if a child is already transgressing (ie throwing a shoe or talking back), time for pleases has passed. That's more along the lines of what I'm talking about. Sometimes parents, usually moms, overuse the word please to try and wheedle co-operation when kids are really looking for someone to act like they are in charge. "Junior, please stop throwing sand at Bobby. I know he is on the horsie but it is his turn. Please stop kicking him now, kicking hurts. If you don't stop kicking and throwing sand, I'm going to count to three and then you'll get a time out. Okay, now I'm counting to three...one...two...well...I warned you I was going to count to three, didn't I? Now please stop throwing sand and I have a yummy snack in my bag...don't you want a yummy snack?"

 

I'm in no way insinuating that the OP, or you for that matter, is related to Junior's mom. Just making a point. Saying please once a child has already backtalked or done something wrong compromises a parent's authority. It just does.

 

Barb

[Anne]

Kay, I totally agree with you - each child, each parent, each situation is different.

 

One of the great things about this board is that we can hear how a bunch of different people parent, and get new ideas - "tools for our toolkit". Hearing what you do with your child may give me an idea on how to deal with mine - even if it's not the thing you're doing! :)

 

Anne

[sunshine]

Considering she's six years old, I would just try to be very loving with her. Talk about why what she is doing bothers you, with lots of hugs and I love you so muches, hold her on your lap while you're talking to her, and listen carefully and thoughtfully when she tells you why she does what she does. Offer "do-overs". Give in when you can. Try to see things from her point of view. One book some parents like is Kids Are Worth It by Barbara Coloroso.

 

Obedient little kids do not necessarily turn out to be obedient older kids. Focus more on building a relationship with her by listening and respecting her point of view, and then explaining yours. Hold your ground when you really need to, but don't let your own pride or stubbornness guide you.

 

And, of course, if this all sounds crazy, feel free to ignore this post!:)

:iagree: I also wonder if she is feeling separated from you. I noticed that my middle child was getting disobedient and disrespectful, silently, not verbally, like totally ignoring what I was saying and I would have to say it several times and she would finally answer angrily. I watched her alot because this is my sweetest child with the most tender heart. I have not given this child more than 5 or 6 spankings in 9 years. And they were swats not even spanks. She will cry at a harsh tone. So I figured that I was losing her heart, maybe the attention that her little sister demands all the time (she is in constant trouble), or the demands of her senior brother and all his needy friends (they all want to be adopted) from me was making her feel left out and she started pulling away.

So, I made concerted effort to call her over to me, to touch her as I passed her, tell her that her outfits were very well coordinated or her handwriting was especially good. I also made sure that I looked at her when she spoke to me, that when we read books I pulled her close, or read one of her favorites first. I make sure that once a week or every 10 days she and I do something just us together. Even if it is going on a walk or making a craft. The grocery store, I just take her and leave the others at home.

It made a huge difference. She started to obey again immediately, to instruct her little sister in things that were right. I can force her to obey, but one day she will be big enough that she won't have to. I have to make sure that she will want to, for her sake. I also explain my commands constantly, why I need them to do it, why they can't not obey, what the dangerous consquences could be etc...

She is six, love that baby to obedience. It will work. Who would not want to please someone who loves them so well. Isn't that why we obey God?

[Laura Corin]

Considering she's six years old, I would just try to be very loving with her. Talk about why what she is doing bothers you, with lots of hugs and I love you so muches, hold her on your lap while you're talking to her, and listen carefully and thoughtfully when she tells you why she does what she does. Offer "do-overs". Give in when you can. Try to see things from her point of view. One book some parents like is Kids Are Worth It by Barbara Coloroso.

 

Obedient little kids do not necessarily turn out to be obedient older kids. Focus more on building a relationship with her by listening and respecting her point of view, and then explaining yours. Hold your ground when you really need to, but don't let your own pride or stubbornness guide you.

 

And, of course, if this all sounds crazy, feel free to ignore this post!:)

 

Laura

[Laura Corin]

But if a child is already transgressing (ie throwing a shoe or talking back), time for pleases has passed. That's more along the lines of what I'm talking about. Sometimes parents, usually moms, overuse the word please to try and wheedle co-operation when kids are really looking for someone to act like they are in charge.

 

You are right, I don't sound like 'junior's mum'. If the first, polite, request doesn't produce results (or a valid reason for delay) then it's time for a cuddle and a talk.

 

Laura

[Peela]

:iagree: I also wonder if she is feeling separated from you.

 

That's what I was trying to say, too. Reconnecting in a positive way can shift the whole focus.

That's why the whole Godly Tomatoes idea appeals to me, though I have not needed to use it much- it is about drawing the child closer, rather than enforcing authority alone (such as with time outs or standing tall and yelling or whatever), which can increase a child's sense of separation.

If a child is not feeling connected and close, they will definitely misbehave to get attention- it is as important as breathing.

[KidsHappen]

First of all, after many years I have learned to only make requests that are important. I ask myself, will it matter tomrrow, next week, next year. Also, is is something that she will learn herself through natural consequences? If she goes out in the cold in ballet slippers, it won't take her too long to learn that her feet are cold and boots would be a better idea.

 

Second, I do allow dc to state their point of view but if I have decided that this is important and something that they need to compy with, I explain why and then make it perfectly clear that if they do not comply, I will help them do so.

 

Finally, is the child so upset that they literally cannot control themselves. Especially if they are able to communicate this and ask for help. Heed this clue. Children like this frequently have problems that cannot be addressed by disipline alone.

Edited December 18, 2008 by KidsHappen
typos.