Is it possible to teach someone how to have a positive outlook on life?

[Melissa in Australia]

12 hours ago, TheReader said:

Just that....can it be taught? 

Person A sees and gets weighed down by the bad in everything, and this affects that person's mood, attitude, etc. for the remainder of the day - they can't shake it off. 

Person B is able to find the good in whatever thing, focus on that, and thus shake off the bad mood that wants to set in. 

For example -- Person B used to routinely be the brunt of/recipient of all out  fights perpetrated by one child. The child would rage/tantrum/meltdown in epic proportions, hitting, kicking, scratching, etc. Person B.  Person B would, when the episode was over, make the effort to note "well, today's tantrum only lasted 10 mins, not 15" or "well, no scratches today, that's good" or whatever.  It took conscious effort, for a year or more, but now, Person B defaults to that.  (Person B never retaliated or reacted physically to the child, who is now a nearly-grown-up teen).

Can Person A learn to do the same thing/can it be taught to them? Are there other techniques that can be suggested? 

Also, if you are Person B in this scenario, and have a Person A like this, are there tips/techniques for not being weighed down yourself by this? 

If you are Person A, and have a Person B like this, do you have tips or suggestions for what you want your Person B to do to help encourage you? 

(someone's bound to say "person a should see a therapist" -- yes, probably, but they won't; person b is debating it for themself, though....)

In the scenario you are using as an example could it be that person b is able to disassociate better?

As the recipient of abuse from 2 disabled children I find some days I am able to disassociate  ( me be the rock them the ocean churning around) better and seem more outwardly positive than other days, where it really gets me down 

 

Not sure disassociate is the right word, maybe  disconnect? disengage brain from the onslaught? 

Anyway my point is that people have differing abilities to do this and it definately impacts on how positive a person can stay. 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Melissa in Australia

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, Melissa in Australia said:

In the scenario you are using as an example could it be that person b is able to disassociate better?

As the recipient of abuse from 2 disabled children I find some days I am able to disassociate  ( me be the rock them the ocean churning around) better and seem more outwardly positive than other days, where it really gets me down 

 

Not sure disassociate is the right word, maybe  disconnect? disengage brain from the onslaught? 

Anyway my point is that people have differing abilities to do this and it definately impacts on how positive a person can stay. 

Yep this was my thought when reading this. As a silly but related example we have pet house birds. Occasionally they get bored and screech. It takes about two minutes of that before I’m going nuts. DH can happily sit and read or study and totally ignore it. Similarly when kids were smaller, DH could cheerfully ignore or sleep through crying and I couldn’t. So is suspect aside from optimism bias etc some people just really can’t cope with intense noise or emotions or chaos as well as others. 

[Scarlett]

I am a weird mix of optimistic and terminally jaded.  I am a rapid processor…..I quickly see the end to all possibilities.  I have to use all sorts of tricks to reel my mind in…   Because I forget that the unexpected can occur.  
But to answer the question….the person who is negative has to want to view things differently. 

[katilac]

14 hours ago, TheReader said:

Just that....can it be taught? 

 <snip>

(someone's bound to say "person a should see a therapist" -- yes, probably, but they won't; person b is debating it for themself, though....)

Hmm, some things people commonly correlate to a positive attitude can be learned, like less verbal complaining and how to reframe. Certain skills can be taught (in the sense of explaining and demonstrating them)  to someone who is requesting to learn them, but they are not best taught by a spouse or other loved one, when both are adults. 

Have they refused to see a therapist or medical doctor, or are you assuming that they will refuse? 

13 hours ago, Elizabeth86 said:

I’m often described as negative, but truly I don’t feel so negative in my own mind. It is all driven by my anxiety. I’d like to not feel that way, but it is just who I am at this point.  

Anxiety can be a terrible thing. Please know that it is possible for it to improve. Even if you've tried a lot of things with no success, the next time you try it might be the right thing, or your brain might have been prepared by prior attempts and now something you've already tried might help a lot more. And I'm not asking, but I always want to put out my PSA that improving anxiety always involves work, but sometimes medication is required to get you to a place where you can actually do the work. Anxiety is not who you are, it is something that is happening to you. 

13 hours ago, TheReader said:

  the mood is palpable whether words are spoken or not.

 

13 hours ago, TheReader said:

 Here, the gloomy person has emotions/moods that just....vibrate....and affect everyone around them. It is exhausting to constantly remain afloat and not dragged under.  It is mildly easier now that the other people in the house don't need me as a life buoy as well. 

 A person vibrating with that much negative energy, even when no words are spoken, is not a negative person but an anxious/stressed/depressed person. The power of positive thinking is not going to solve this. 

12 hours ago, TheReader said:

This is really helpful, actually. Thank you. 

I think my problem is in feeling like I need to be the umbrella bringer, poncho holder, etc. for the person in the storm, for myself (to not get swamped by their storm), for the other family members (who are fairly good now at navigating this on their own but didn't used to be, so it's still ingrained in me to be prepared enough for everyone). 

I hope and pray I'm not ever making Person A feel....guilty? inadequate? bad? worse about theirself?....for the fact they have this storm inside them. I really really really try not to.  In conversations, they've sometimes stated things like "I know I'm in a bad mood a lot lately, and I'm trying to snap out of it" -- it's in those conversations when I've asked "have you ever tried.....(insert thing here, such as a gratitude journal, or acknowledging a good thing in the midst of a bad thing, or at the end of the day, finding one best thing of the day)"   Otherwise I try not to offer advice unless asked, try to listen in the times they share whatever it is that's bringing them down that day, try to empathize ("man, that stinks...I would hate to deal with that...."), do not try to fix it, do not say things like "seriously, that bothers you?" or anything, etc. 

I don't think the "have you ever tried . . . " response is particularly helpful. Saying that they're trying to snap out of a bad mood is not a request for advice. And, if the mood is so low and pervasive that you feel swamped by it and it's affecting the whole household, a gratitude journal is not going to fix it. It might be one tool among many, but suggesting it is like offering to bring an umbrella to their hurricane. And you need to not be the person offering tools if the situation is that bad, both because you're too close to it to be objective and because it's probably calling for a professional at that point (which could be a medical doctor writing a scrip, a counselor, or both). 

Even if it is possible to teach someone else to have a positive outlook on life, nobody can positive their way out of overwhelming stress or depression or anxiety. A task like a gratitude journal might look like a life raft to you, but it can look like an anchor to a person who is already struggling to keep their head above the water. When you're using words like being swamped and dragged under by their mood, things have gone beyond walking on the sunny side of the street. 

Having said all that, it is perfectly valid for you tell him that the current situation is untenable. That you think he needs to go to the doctor, get some bloodwork to rule out physical causes, and consider next steps from there. If he refuses or endlessly puts it off, you tell him that refusing to seek/try medical advice, meds, or counseling means that you will seek marriage counseling, with or without him. He needs to hear, "I love you but you're hurting me. I love you but I can't fix this." He needs to know it's serious. 

At some point, that only you can recognize, he might need to hear, "I love you, but I need some distance from this for my own health." 

You can't be his helper, but you can tell him help is needed. 

[BlsdMama]

In our "hypothetical" scenario, person B couldn't handle the constant stream of negativity.  Person A internalized what Person B was saying (it's overwhelming to be surrounded by negativity on a consistent basis) and opted for anxiety meds.  It. Changed. Everything.

Person A, as a person who seeks to "better the process" both by job and naturally, can't NOT see how things/processes/people could improve.  However, with anxiety meds, the way Person A communicated improved and became overall more positive.

If your Person A won't seek counseling nor see that his/her way is negative or could be improved, then I don't know how you help that.  In your scenario, it is likely that A sees B as a PollyAnna who puts up with bad behavior or bad things and isn't "proactive."

[TheReader]

10 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

In the scenario you are using as an example could it be that person b is able to disassociate better?

As the recipient of abuse from 2 disabled children I find some days I am able to disassociate  ( me be the rock them the ocean churning around) better and seem more outwardly positive than other days, where it really gets me down 

 

Not sure disassociate is the right word, maybe  disconnect? disengage brain from the onslaught? 

Anyway my point is that people have differing abilities to do this and it definately impacts on how positive a person can stay. 

That is a very very very interesting thought.....hmm. I'm going to ponder that, but....hmm. Possibly yes.  

Thanks for chiming in with that; it's something to look at for sure. 

[TheReader]

6 hours ago, katilac said:

Hmm, some things people commonly correlate to a positive attitude can be learned, like less verbal complaining and how to reframe. Certain skills can be taught (in the sense of explaining and demonstrating them)  to someone who is requesting to learn them, but they are not best taught by a spouse or other loved one, when both are adults. 

Have they refused to see a therapist or medical doctor, or are you assuming that they will refuse? 

Anxiety can be a terrible thing. Please know that it is possible for it to improve. Even if you've tried a lot of things with no success, the next time you try it might be the right thing, or your brain might have been prepared by prior attempts and now something you've already tried might help a lot more. And I'm not asking, but I always want to put out my PSA that improving anxiety always involves work, but sometimes medication is required to get you to a place where you can actually do the work. Anxiety is not who you are, it is something that is happening to you. 

 

 A person vibrating with that much negative energy, even when no words are spoken, is not a negative person but an anxious/stressed/depressed person. The power of positive thinking is not going to solve this. 

I don't think the "have you ever tried . . . " response is particularly helpful. Saying that they're trying to snap out of a bad mood is not a request for advice. And, if the mood is so low and pervasive that you feel swamped by it and it's affecting the whole household, a gratitude journal is not going to fix it. It might be one tool among many, but suggesting it is like offering to bring an umbrella to their hurricane. And you need to not be the person offering tools if the situation is that bad, both because you're too close to it to be objective and because it's probably calling for a professional at that point (which could be a medical doctor writing a scrip, a counselor, or both). 

Even if it is possible to teach someone else to have a positive outlook on life, nobody can positive their way out of overwhelming stress or depression or anxiety. A task like a gratitude journal might look like a life raft to you, but it can look like an anchor to a person who is already struggling to keep their head above the water. When you're using words like being swamped and dragged under by their mood, things have gone beyond walking on the sunny side of the street. 

Having said all that, it is perfectly valid for you tell him that the current situation is untenable. That you think he needs to go to the doctor, get some bloodwork to rule out physical causes, and consider next steps from there. If he refuses or endlessly puts it off, you tell him that refusing to seek/try medical advice, meds, or counseling means that you will seek marriage counseling, with or without him. He needs to hear, "I love you but you're hurting me. I love you but I can't fix this." He needs to know it's serious. 

At some point, that only you can recognize, he might need to hear, "I love you, but I need some distance from this for my own health." 

You can't be his helper, but you can tell him help is needed. 

thank you for all of this; there's a history of resistance to meds for mental health things.  Any mention that perhaps this is bigger than just "a bad mood" gets scoffed at and dismissed.  I am not a doctor, nor do I play one on the internet, but I am 99% certain there is a chemical imbalance of one sort or another happening - whether depression, anxiety, both, or "just" the chronic stress of the past 3 yrs having changed brain chemistry or something.  (not just covid stress, but  family stress from things going on/did go on with the kids). 

Pair this with a high level of insecurity, and any kind of "I love you but you have to get help or else" statement will have to be very very very carefully worded. I am pondering how to do that. 

 

22 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

In our "hypothetical" scenario, person B couldn't handle the constant stream of negativity.  Person A internalized what Person B was saying (it's overwhelming to be surrounded by negativity on a consistent basis) and opted for anxiety meds.  It. Changed. Everything.

Person A, as a person who seeks to "better the process" both by job and naturally, can't NOT see how things/processes/people could improve.  However, with anxiety meds, the way Person A communicated improved and became overall more positive.

If your Person A won't seek counseling nor see that his/her way is negative or could be improved, then I don't know how you help that.  In your scenario, it is likely that A sees B as a PollyAnna who puts up with bad behavior or bad things and isn't "proactive."

That last is interesting; thank you. That's very possibly true, I don't know. I'm pondering how to help him believe that he needs help. He does see his way is negative, he does want to improve it......he scoffs at the idea/balks at the idea that a doctor needs be involved. 

[TheReader]

So, a summary/update/"here's what the Reader is hearing in this thread" --  y'all correct me if I'm missing anything, but here's what I've taken away thus far: 

 

....suggesting tips to him is not helpful unless he specifically asks something like "You are able to see the good and focus on that, how exactly do you do that?"  - otherwise I risk coming off like I'm minimalizing/dismissing his depression as nothing more than a bad day (when you and I all recognize that's likely not the case, even if he doesn't recognize that)
 

....I need to work in the meantime on boundaries for myself, and ways to create separation between his moods and my need to not get dragged down by it, because I cannot change his mood/depression, but I can protect myself from same

....I need to stop trying to be his helper in this, and just instead be a supportive listener, let him vent, don't try to fix it, commiserate but don't jump right in with encouragement (that may not seem like it/sound like it to him in that moment), etc. - but w/boundaries as well

...I need to, in the setting of the boundaries, communicate to him (at some time when it will be well received), what his mood/depression is doing to the household in an attempt to encourage him to seek outside help (rule out a physical cause) and then let it be his decision 

....throwing a B-complex vitamin at him can't hurt and might help (we already do eat well, get lots of exercise, get sunshine, etc.)

 

If I've missed any of the big stuff, y'all let me know please. If I've misunderstood something that's been said, please gently correct me. Thanks!

[TravelingChris]

22 hours ago, TheReader said:

This is very true. Also very difficult, at times.  Here, the gloomy person has emotions/moods that just....vibrate....and affect everyone around them. It is exhausting to constantly remain afloat and not dragged under.  It is mildly easier now that the other people in the house don't need me as a life buoy as well. 

The cumulative stress of the last 3 years is, I'm sure, a major factor. And the fact said gloomy person has been working from home since, thus giving them no change of scenery/break from us, and us no break from them. They are resistant to returning to the office though, and on non-gloomy days, it's wonderful having them home (and, ha, our life wouldn't function these days w/o that flexibility). 

Probably I should ask the better question -- if you are the non-gloomy one, how do you not be drowned by it? That's the part that *I* can control, assuming I can learn a way. 

When my dh got his sleep[ apnea and his vitamin d levels up, he greatly improved his mood.  Also,  I know if dh doesn't get enough sleep, he will be very irritable.  Which isn't me. 

[TheReader]

2 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

When my dh got his sleep[ apnea and his vitamin d levels up, he greatly improved his mood.  Also,  I know if dh doesn't get enough sleep, he will be very irritable.  Which isn't me. 

Oh, that is another very good point.  There's definitely sleep stuff going on (probably sleep apnea, but another thing he won't get checked out). Thank you! 

[Zinnia2]

We read through a book by Dawn Huebner, What to do when you Grumble Too Much, that was helpful to our family.  Alas, it's written to kids, so it's a hard sell to a young adult.  But the concepts in there are solid, and I think they helped my husband and me as much as they did our kids.  It also gave a common language to use with my grumbliest, glass half empty, kid, and over time, he has implemented a good bit.  His anxiety is also better now, and that has helped a lot.

[Clemsondana]

In addition to B vitamins, there are a number of supplements associated with various aspects of mental health, including anxiety.  Most are fairly typical - magnesium, fish oil, etc.  You might look at some of those to try.  They might not help, but they might, and might also be an easier sell than seeing a doctor for a prescription.  There are some 'mood support'-style that combine some of them, so that might also be an approach if he's wanting to change but not thinking it's doctor-worthy.  People are sometimes less sensitive to the idea of having a vitamin deficiency since lots of people supplement something.  

[TechWife]

On 11/10/2022 at 11:38 AM, sassenach said:

I believe it's possible for a negative person to *learn* a more positive mindset, but no, I don't think it's possible for anyone to *teach* positivity. Change is an inside job. 

This. Attitude is learned, but not taught. The most that can be done is to set behavior expectations for children, such as “whining is allowed in your bedroom.” That doesn’t change the mindset, but it does help them learn a bit of self control and to recognize that they aren’t to pull others into their own pit. 

[heartlikealion]

My knee-jerk reaction is that person B is probably driving person A nuts. I know in this write up we're supposed to think, "let's fix person A" but I'm a little bit of a person A and have a person B in my life lol. 

I have gone to tons of therapy. It's sorta irrelevant. You can be predispositioned (or default?) to a glass half empty or half full mindset imo. 

Trying to point out the silver lining to someone can be described as sympathetic vs empathetic. It can also be described as toxic positivity. To me, the person B in my life sometimes spreads toxic positivity. 

I have stopped opening up as much to my family because of their need to say well-meaning but sometimes annoying (to me) things such as, "I'm praying for you." Like I didn't vent for you to offer a solution or try to fix it. Just let me have my thoughts. 

[heartlikealion]

 

[Clemsondana]

1 hour ago, Geul said:

Good info, thanks. My husband has health issues. He doesn't feel well, also went through a stressful period at work. It seems that all this led to his low mood (I'd even say pre-depressed) state. I agree with you that a lack of vitamins might work, but isn't it better to address a doctor and do a blood test to find out what exactly the body lacks?

You can test for some of them.  i don't know how much some of the levels fluctuate so I don't know whether there are good tests for steady-state Mg and Zn levels, but i know that B, D, and Omega3 levels can be tested for.  But, there isn't much contraindication for these supplements for most people even if they aren't strictly necessary.  If she has a spouse who is resistant to seeking medical help for these issues, adding a vitamin supplement might be an easy fix.  And, the other complication with some of these is that they actually can't tell you what level a particular patient needs.  With vitamin D, a relative recently got back bloodwork that said that their levels were within the safe range, between 300-800 (I think - I don't remember the specifics).  But, there was a note, that said that 10% of people had neuropsychological effects with levels under 400; relative had a level of 350.  Similar things are true of other things like hormone levels or medicine levels in the bloodstream.  There are many medical situations where the only way to figure out whether a treatment helps, or what the ideal dose is for a particular patient, is to try it and see what works.  

[Pam in CT]

Since this thread has revived...

 

... I want to thank @forty-two  from the depths of my being for expressing this dynamic so powerfully:

On 11/10/2022 at 12:18 PM, forty-two said:

I am Person B, but I'm not sure it's an unalloyed good.  Sometimes I'm reflexively looking at the positive because I can't handle negative feelings - it allows me to avoid having to learn how. And that's been a problem, because I'm fairly empathic (in the colloquial sense of feeling others' emotions as if they were my own), and for a long time I couldn't handle people being sad at me.  My toolbox was limited to "trying to help/make them feel better", either by solving the problem making them feel bad or by solving the feeling bad (aka hugging it better - which does work surprisingly well).  Letting them just feel bad about a bad situation wasn't on the table, because I couldn't handle the emotions, even by proxy. 

And, secondly, I think reflexively looking for the silver lining, to make the cloud something I can live with, sometimes leads to me minimizing the cloud as "not that bad".  And sometimes that's not really true - the cloud *is* bad, is something that really should not be, and focusing on the 5% silver lining and dismissing the 95% bad as "not that bad" - well, it's a distorted, false view of reality, and it causes me to be blase about things that maybe I really shouldn't be blase about.  That finding the silver lining is good, but it is also good to acknowledge the bad for what it is - and that feeling bad about bad things is perhaps *more* appropriate than ignoring/minimizing the bad in favor of a laser-focus on the good.

So, in good Person B fashion ;), maybe try to reframe things a bit, to think of the strengths that Person A's approach brings to the table.  It helps me to separate my own big feelings from theirs when I can acknowledge that their feelings, though painful, are nevertheless a reality-based response to the situation.  (And with kids whose big emotions are maybe an overreaction, I do try to gently help them calibrate the intensity of the emotions to the intensity of the problem, while also considering whether the problem they are dealing with is in fact more intense than it looks to me from the outside.  And I tell myself the very same thing, when it comes to how upset and panicky other people's big feelings make me feel - it's *not* the big problem it feels like, I *don't* have to go into overdrive trying to make it go away.)  It helps me deal with it when I can remind myself that their feeling bad *isn't* my responsibility to fix, that helping someone doesn't have to mean making them feel better - that feeling bad about bad things is painful but *good*. 

But that said, sometimes it's still really painful for me to deal with.  When it comes to small-ish things - ranting about computer problems, for instance - I've come right out and said that the unproductive ranting is very hard for me to deal with, and asked them to not do it around me.  Ditto for silently making it everyone else's problem.  For bigger things - where it's just bad, and there's nothing to be said for it - I do what I can to help and quietly go hide when I need to.  Ditto if it's small but they are just being upset without trying to inflict it on the rest of us.  It's ok for them to be sad - and acknowledging that helps me separate myself from their feelings - and it's ok for me to take a break from feeling their sad when I need to.

Over the last two weeks I've come back several times to this extremely succinct insight.

My mother -- whom I adore -- is like this; we have long and affectionately called her Pollyanna in Hell after the Roz Chast comic.

95% of the time it's endearing, or a blessing.

 

But then the 5%, when my brother or I or our late father when he was alive had a real, serious issue -- job loss, infertility, miscarriage, mental illness in the family, a really-struggling kid, the existential risk to democracy and our horror in the face of it, the bladder cancer that killed my father -- we cannot talk to her about these things. Because she does not have the capacity to hold it.  And her relentless insistence of At Least... or Why Don't You Just... or etc, and her expectation that we join her in her Sunnyside...

is

not

helpful.

It is alienating. It forces the person in serious pain/ trouble/ financial distress / in my father's case: extreme physical pain and realization that the time had come to stop medically futile treatment in the face of her continued relentless "optimism" to Put on a Happy Face for her sake, to protect and tend to her and her inability to hold the distress. 

 

 

OP: I do not know if you are doing any such thing. But such a thing is real.

 

 

 

This is also very good -- thanks for this as well.

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Pam in CT
missing link

[TheReader]

16 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

Since this thread has revived...

 

... I want to thank @forty-two  from the depths of my being for expressing this dynamic so powerfully:

 

OP: I do not know if you are doing any such thing. But such a thing is real.

 

Thank you; it's one of the things I've held in mind as well since this thread. I'm not sure. I hope not. But I'm more aware of it, and working to not. 

 

[maize]

My response below assumes that there is a clinical mood disorder in play. This is something that needs to be addressed differently than just sometimes feeling pessimistic about life/the world/specific circumstances.

If mental health difficulties are involved (and it sounds to me like they are) the answer is to address those.

Which I realize can be near impossible when the person primarily impacted is not willing to consider the option.

Unfortunately, mental illness has secondary as well as primary victims, and living with someone with unaddressed mental illness can be truly miserable, even nightmarish. In my experience, living with a person with severe depression can absolutely feel like there is a miasma of gloom and despair filling the entire house. Maybe this is because as social beings our brains are adapted to naturally mirror the emotions of the people around us; I don't know. But I know all too well what it feels like and imposing this kind of life on family members because the person at the center of it is unwilling to seek treatment is not fair to them.

Maybe at some point when this person is not in a dark mood OP can explain to him just how much impact his moods are having on the entire family. I'm sure he loves them and does not actually want to hurt them; unfortunately hurt doesn't have to be willful to be real. 

I'd encourage working to improve mental health in any way I can. In the meantime, some things that OP can do herself include learning and practicing validation (hard, but can be beneficial) and finding ways to minimize the impact on her and the children. Maybe get out of the house when a negative mood has taken it over.

I'm sorry you are dealing with this. Sorry too that he is dealing with this. Hopefully he can come to see that he has the responsibility to try to address his moods and to not drag his whole family down.

Edited November 21, 2022 by maize

[Melissa Louise]

Yes, the person affected definitely has a responsibility to address. 

God, though, it's so hard. Even when you are committed to the effort, find someone good to treat you, and find the $$$$. 

I'm three years in to a serious, committed analysis with a very skilled practitioner (meds don't work + no other accessible treatment) and it is the hardest I have ever worked in my life. 

It would kill me rn to have someone tell me to have a better mindset. I mean, sure, I also would like not to be like this. It is not fun. It is worth the effort to change but it is HARD. 

 

[maize]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yes, the person affected definitely has a responsibility to address. 

God, though, it's so hard. Even when you are committed to the effort, find someone good to treat you, and find the $$$$. 

I'm three years in to a serious, committed analysis with a very skilled practitioner (meds don't work + no other accessible treatment) and it is the hardest I have ever worked in my life. 

It would kill me rn to have someone tell me to have a better mindset. I mean, sure, I also would like not to be like this. It is not fun. It is worth the effort to change but it is HARD. 

 

That's the kicker, isn't it? Even when someone wants to address mental health, adequate and effective treatment can be ridiculously difficult to access.

[Melissa Louise]

6 minutes ago, maize said:

That's the kicker, isn't it? Even when someone wants to address mental health, adequate and effective treatment can be ridiculously difficult to access.

And even when you get it - still hard, hard work. No easy fixes. 

 

[heartlikealion]

Is the implication that one person “retaliated” toward a child and that was the basis of defining their attitude as problematic? 

Otherwise, I don’t see why everyone is so fast to say this person that’s weighed down needs mental help etc. Like not everyone is going to have the same world view. And arguably, peppy people are just as frustrating. 

[maize]

2 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

Is the implication that one person “retaliated” toward a child and that was the basis of defining their attitude as problematic? 

Otherwise, I don’t see why everyone is so fast to say this person that’s weighed down needs mental help etc. Like not everyone is going to have the same world view. And arguably, peppy people are just as frustrating. 

Some of how this kind of situation has played out in my household is that the person struggling with anxiety and depression engages in cognitive distortions like catastrophizing. In the case of, say, a child having a meltdown and kicking/scratching etc., this person might go into a negative thought cycle where they presume that the child in question is inherently flawed, a monster of some sort, unlikely to ever achieve anything good, and likely to grow up to be a criminal. They will both express these thoughts and end up ruminating on them incessantly. It's not just a glass-half-empty-vs-half-full kind of thing, but more like their brain distorts their perception of reality to a point where they perceive it as many factors of magnitude worse than it is, and then projects that dark and hopeless perception onto the intents of the people around them and into the future as if it is true and assured.

(ETA this is just one example of a direction the distorted thinking can go; there are lots of other possible directions, including turning inward in a "I am a total failure as a parent and have completely screwed up my kids" kind of direction. The point is that the problem gets seriously distorted and vastly overblown in nature and scope.)

https://positivepsychology.com/catastrophizing/#:~:text=Catastrophizing functions as a cognitive,inability to manage potential threats.

Edited November 22, 2022 by maize

[TheReader]

1 hour ago, heartlikealion said:

Is the implication that one person “retaliated” toward a child and that was the basis of defining their attitude as problematic? 

Otherwise, I don’t see why everyone is so fast to say this person that’s weighed down needs mental help etc. Like not everyone is going to have the same world view. And arguably, peppy people are just as frustrating. 

no, that was not intended as the implication, and in reading the thread the first time, what most people picked up on was the.....mood so heavy and dark that it just vibrates through the whole household.   That a mood *that* intense is, possibly, indicative of needing more help than just a shift in thinking. 

 

[heartlikealion]

Thank you for clarifying, ladies. 

[kbutton]

On 11/10/2022 at 10:46 AM, TheReader said:

If you are Person A, and have a Person B like this, do you have tips or suggestions for what you want your Person B to do to help encourage you? 

I haven't read any replies yet, but I would say that Person B needs to understand that what works for them may not be motivating to Person A at all.

It's not always about being a positive or negative person, and framing it that way can come across as simplistic and discouraging at times (though I can tell you are seeing this is a skill that has been honed, and framing it that way, which is better than just being very Pollyanna). It can feel to Person A as if Person B is overly positive just for the sake of being positive.

Most people are somewhere in between these two perspectives, I think.

Person A might need to find something else to focus on vs. trying to be positive about the situation. Person B might not be a good person for Person A to vent to. Focusing on the positive aspects of the negative situation is not the only possible strategy. Respite, self-care, having a safe person to vent to, distraction, meditation, a stress-relieving hobby, etc. are all things that could potentially be a better one for Person A (and more!!!). 

Sometimes when life sucks, you want to be able to say so. 

[kbutton]

On 11/10/2022 at 11:28 AM, TheReader said:

To clarify: the fights with the tantruming child were years ago, when the child was young and was the one doing all the fighting - not the parent. The parent was the recipient of the scratches, hits, kicks, etc. and used this method of coping -- "oh, I didn't get scratched today, only hit.." as a means of maintaining a positive relationship with said child (there were at the time undx'ed stuff going on that has since been taken care of, and child is now a nice, calm, pleasant almost grown up). 

So, I am more of a [sort of] negative person--glass half empty and pleasantly surprised when it's actually full and better prepared [usually] when it's not. 

I am also the person who was on the receiving end of tantrums--kid in question was ultimately diagnosed with ASD, and he's a very pleasant young adult now. He's amazing. 

DH had his head in the sand and was relentlessly committed to the narrative that things weren't as bad as they seemed, but eventually when I got my way with evaluations and help, he became the one that is gloomy, stressed, etc. while still being strangely positive.

It's a major problem.

On 11/10/2022 at 11:31 AM, TheReader said:

Hugs to you.  I definitely don't want to have him feel like he can't share. I'm sorry you feel that way. In our house, the mood is palpable whether words are spoken or not....in many cases, words would be better, b/c then the family would all know what's the root of the mood, not be left wondering. Conversations to try and explain that have not resulted in any change. 

Mine won't share, really, but the settling of the gloom over the household (veneered in positivity! or the DeNial River! runs very strong).

On 11/10/2022 at 12:18 PM, forty-two said:

I am Person B, but I'm not sure it's an unalloyed good. 

I am very late to the party, but I want to point out, as others have, that this is super gracious and so very true. It was a kindness to type all of that out.

On 11/10/2022 at 12:57 PM, TheReader said:

re: the bold -- as Person B, the bright-side-finding comment ("today's tantrum only lasted 10 mins, not 15") was my own internal dialogue, not spoken outloud to anyone, just my internal view to get through the day -- to shift my own thoughts from "here we are on the 57th tantrum in a row, I cannot stand this child" and to, instead, a healthier "hey, these tantrums are slowly but surely improving, and there is hope, and look, today's was shorter, so that's good" so that I could still parent that child with a positive attitude and still endure the tantrums-to-come, because I'd framed them now in my mind as a thing that was improving. 

That was never verbalized to the kid (who is not Person A), nor do I use that technique outloud with Person A when they are being negative. It was just an example of how I reframe things, in my own mind, to shift my attitude, and wondering if that kind of shift can be taught/learned or not (so, could Person A learn to use that technique themselves with negative things that happen). 

It sounds like you are asking gracious questions about a situation that is more complicated than being a positive or negative coper. Hugs.

On 11/10/2022 at 7:06 PM, Clemsondana said:

I do think it's important to sort out reflexive negativity and reflexive arguing.  I actually think that spouse was more reflexive than actually negative, if that makes sense. 

So, we have ADHD mixed up in the situation. We have weird FOO issues in there with non-NT but undiagnosed parents. Reflexive anything goes with ADHD, and then if you add in an inability to see the big picture, an inability to deal with time that = Not Now, and some carefully buried anxiety...well, everything becomes reflexive.

If the OP is dealing with those sorts of things...you are not alone. 

On 11/11/2022 at 2:44 AM, katilac said:

 A person vibrating with that much negative energy, even when no words are spoken, is not a negative person but an anxious/stressed/depressed person. The power of positive thinking is not going to solve this. 

Yes, and I would seriously consider whether there is some ADHD or ASD or other undiagnosed thing going on that means skills haven't been learned, and that's leading to the anxiety. Or not. But with a kid that has a history of very atypical behavior, chances are heredity is in play. 

It is very, very common dynamic for the mom to be dealing with undiagnosed kid stuff up to her eyeballs and dad to be paddling up the river of DeNial. Very common. 

Even if that has "passed" because said child is grown, there is a lot of garbage now floating in that river. DeNial can be head in the sand, or it can be avoidance/abdication of responsibility. In this case, it sounds like a complete inability to handle stress, so the OP handled it instead. Positive and negative is a tangential topic.