How useful is a few years of a language? Particularly Mandarin?

[Drama Llama]

My 11 year old speaks decent Spanish.  His current career plan is to work for his grandfather's company, and Spanish would be very useful there.  Of course he's 11, so next year he might want to be something entirely different.  

At his current school, the kids start languages in 6th grade, and since he already had enough Spanish to skip the first level, and skipping wasn't an option, he chose Mandarin.  His thought was that he'd continue to grow his Spanish outside of school, and at some point he'd switch and test into a harder class.  And he's really been good about studying, and seeking out opportunities to learn Spanish outside of school.  Including doing all of his older  brother's HW.  (Not cheating. He just photocopies it and does it, while his brother also does it. 

But now he's decided he has "too much homework" ( he gets all of his homework done in the car on the way to/from school, really he's not suffering) so he wants to take seventh grade Spanish next year.  

I told him that since I don't think he'll learn anything in seventh grade Spanish, he might as well stick with Mandarin a little longer.  He countered that he doesn't think he'll get good enough in middle school to use it.  

So, I'm wondering what people think?  Is 3 years of middle school Mandarin enough to be useful?  It's supposedly the equivalent of 2 years of HS or 1 year of college.

[Laura Corin]

Mandarin is a tough language with a steep learning curve. I personally don't think that it's worthwhile to have a little Mandarin.  Much better to have solid Spanish,  even if there's some review in what's offered.

For reference,  I'm a native English speaker who became fairly fluent in Mandarin. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Laura Corin

[Arcadia]

If he doesn’t want to continue with Chinese,  there isn’t any point. We are Chinese and my kids had a hardworking Chinese tutor. My kids aren’t keen on putting in the effort to be fluent. To be fair DS16 have to put in more work/effort for any academics while DS17 was happy to “underperform”. My friend did force her kids to learn Chinese and both have forgotten most of it. They took Spanish in high school.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Arcadia
typo

[Catwoman]

Stick with Spanish. Why make his life harder than it has to be? 

[Amira]

Three years of middle school language is rarely enough to be worthwhile in any language, especially how languages are usually taught in the US. It might be the equivalent of one semester in a decent university program.  I think it would be more effective to switch back to Spanish full time, especially since there are opportunities to use it and he wants to make the switch.  Can he test to see if he can go into eighth grade Spanish?  Most language teachers want students placed at the right level to make it easier to teach a group of students. But even if that isn’t a possibility, I think it’s still better to switch to Spanish since that’s what he wants to do and is motivated to work on it outside of class.

[HomeAgain]

I would ask, how many opportunities outside of the classroom are there for him to continue learning and keep up Mandarin once he finishes?

That's the key.  Language now should be able to propel to more education later, but if there isn't the opportunity, it becomes shelved and forgotten in the mind.

[Katy]

I’d switch him to Spanish. 

[kiwik]

The value isn't in being able to speak the language but in learning a second language and about a different culture.

[Insertcreativenamehere]

If he's motivated to learn Spanish and enjoys it, I'd switch him to the Spanish class even if it's mostly review for him. 

[kristin0713]

Spanish is definitely more useful here in the US than Mandarin, unless he has aspirations to work internationally or become a missionary or something where he could really use the language. Three years would be enough to give him a jumpstart to pursue it more seriously in high school if he wanted. I actually knew a girl in high school that did a semester in China junior year. But if he’s interested in Spanish, that’s the way to go IMO. 

[wintermom]

If he decides to add on another language, it's much easier to build on a language from a related language group. French and Italian are within the same group as Spanish. So for less time and effort, he could pick these up quicker than jumping into a completely different language group. 

BTW, I emphasize that 'he' should be the one to decide. Learning a language is impossible if the learner doesn't choose to. If he's motivated, he already has the benefit of being strong in more than one language.

[Junie]

53 minutes ago, wintermom said:

If he decides to add on another language, it's much easier to build on a language from a related language group. French and Italian are within the same group as Spanish. So for less time and effort, he could pick these up quicker than jumping into a completely different language group. 

BTW, I emphasize that 'he' should be the one to decide. Learning a language is impossible if the learner doesn't choose to. If he's motivated, he already has the benefit of being strong in more than one language.

This is what I was going to suggest.  Are Spanish and Mandarin the only options.  I think another Romance language, French, Italian, Portuguese, might be a better fit for him if he doesn't want to continue with Mandarin and he thinks that he wouldn't learn much in the Spanish class.

I would definitely let him drop Mandarin.

[HomeAgain]

43 minutes ago, wintermom said:

If he decides to add on another language, it's much easier to build on a language from a related language group. French and Italian are within the same group as Spanish. So for less time and effort, he could pick these up quicker than jumping into a completely different language group. 

BTW, I emphasize that 'he' should be the one to decide. Learning a language is impossible if the learner doesn't choose to. If he's motivated, he already has the benefit of being strong in more than one language.

This. At some point it becomes "throwing marshmallows" and not worth the time.

I have a personal perspective on the first part.  My most comfortable languages are those that share grammar ideas, but not words.  It is a LOT of work to make my brain focus in Portuguese or Italian without French bleeding over, and so much less work to move from, say, French to Russian.  My brain compartmentalizes and if the languages are too close, I become a mess in both when trying to speak in the newer one.  It also gives me a headache in multilingual situations where my brain goes through the steps of translating, then identifying core language, then speaking back.  Disneyland Paris was overwhelming at times because of the multilingual crowds.

While I can passably read in more than one Romance language, I will always struggle with the pronunciation aspect in languages where my vocabulary isn't as strong as my first.

[kirstenhill]

I'd let him take the easy Spanish class.  I think the instructor will figure out he has stronger skills and may give him some enrichment potentially even if the actual classwork is below his current level. 

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Junie said:

This is what I was going to suggest.  Are Spanish and Mandarin the only options.  I think another Romance language, French, Italian, Portuguese, might be a better fit for him if he doesn't want to continue with Mandarin and he thinks that he wouldn't learn much in the Spanish class.

I would definitely let him drop Mandarin.

They are at the only options at this point.  They have other options but you have to start those in 6th, or in 9th.  There's not a track for starting those in 7th or 8th.  

He chose Mandarin.  I guess my biggest question isn't really how will he use it as an adult.   It's whether there's a benefit from him having a subject that challenges him.  School comes pretty easily to him.  

I will probably let him switch, if the school agrees. I told him he needs to go find out what his options are.  

 

[Annie G]

17 minutes ago, kirstenhill said:

I'd let him take the easy Spanish class.  I think the instructor will figure out he has stronger skills and may give him some enrichment potentially even if the actual classwork is below his current level. 

And perhaps the instructor will give him a chance to develop some tutoring or leadership skills since he’ll be ahead of his classmates.  Not in a teacher’s pet kind of way, but as enrichment.  Is he the kid who enjoys cooking? He might be able to do some class demonstrations to teach about food/culture or something.

[catz]

The thing about taking a language class is there is a good chance he will get stronger with fluency and pronunciation even if he has seen a lot of the content.  I just hit 300+ days on duolingo spanish, I haven't worked on a language since high school.  A huge part of that program is ongoing review and listening.  I'm pretty impressed with how effective that seems to be.  My college age son had dual enrolled Spanish in high school and restarted college in Spanish 1 and is really glad he is.  He is in his last semester and oh my gosh, if the kid doesn't actually have some decent fluency now.  They're reading a novel in Spanish in his current class.  

I also wonder if he's a kid that likes finishing homework in the car, I know he does sports, etc is he really maintaining his Spanish outside of school?  

I'd let it be his decision.  

[Faith-manor]

Even though the work might be easy, there is value in being in the Spanish class just to practice speaking it. Concepts can also be reinforced by helping other students. Mandarin is crazy tough so if his heart is with Spanish, and he has a plan to use it in the future, I would drop Mandarin. An easy A is also sometimes an okay thing. Not having to work so hard on the homework can free up time for other studies and pursuits. 

[Carrie12345]

As someone who did 2 years of HS German and 2 of French, I wouldn’t anticipate any lasting fluency without an avenue for routine practice.  I mean… I can still fly through the beginning levels of Duolingo. A few basic phrases flow out naturally if I’m being silly with accents.  I *probably* wouldn’t die in Canada, and I might navigate Germany slightly better than someone who’s never taken German. But I don’t have to worry much because they do good English, lol.

I’m almost certain there are multiple studies that talk about the advantages of even dabbling in multiple languages that have nothing to do with the actual USAGE, just the brain practice.  Spanish is clearly the more useful USAGE, but Mandarin is probably a terrific brain exercise.  I don’t think either choice is going to HURT anything in the long run.

[prairiewindmomma]

I would let it be his call either way. A few years of Mandarin isn’t likely to be very useful, but sometimes learning a completely different language helps us think about language differently. It will likely also help his ear. 
 

Spanish is helpful in the US, but as far as global languages go, Mandarin is way more relevant than Italian or most other Romance languages. 

[Drama Llama]

37 minutes ago, catz said:

I also wonder if he's a kid that likes finishing homework in the car, I know he does sports, etc is he really maintaining his Spanish outside of school?  

I'd let it be his decision.  

I can't really explain the Spanish thing.  He doesn't like it when he is assigned work.  I think the issue with the Mandarin homework is that somebody else is telling him he needs to do it, and he would rather do things of his choice, even if those things are remarkably similar. So, he speeds through his Mandarin homework because he wants to be done with homework, and then begs his brother for copies of his Spanish homework, and sits next to him and does them.  We also live in an area, and our network of friends and family, is such that he pretty frequently gets Spanish practice by going to the park for pick up soccer, or making small talk with a neighbor, or baking cookies with a family friend.  

I am a little worried that he'll lose interest in Spanish when it's assigned.  

[Arcadia]

13 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

 We also live in an area, and our network of friends and family, is such that he pretty frequently gets Spanish practice by going to the park for pick up soccer, or making small talk with a neighbor, or baking cookies with a family friend.  

I am a little worried that he'll lose interest in Spanish when it's assigned.  

He has pragmatic uses for Spanish in his daily life which would hopefully make homework less annoying. My friend’s daughter picked Spanish for high school because she wanted to go pre-med and Spanish is useful. She is now aiming for dentistry as medical school is too competitive (her words). She is a very pragmatic person and works as a dental assistant during college spring/winter/summer breaks.
My DS17 is relearning Chinese because he is too free and no classes in the spring quarter strike his fancy. However, he has plenty of chances to use Chinese where we live. DS17 took Japanese for the high school requirement. He took German in elementary public charter school (online) and then started attending Saturday German school classes.

[Clarita]

12 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

So, I'm wondering what people think?  Is 3 years of middle school Mandarin enough to be useful?  It's supposedly the equivalent of 2 years of HS or 1 year of college.

Let him drop it. It doesn't matter how many years he will take it, if he isn't excited about the foreign language it won't be useful. On the other hand if he was interested in learning the language it will be useful and he'll find a way to use it. This comes from someone who did 12 years of Chinese school ended up pretty illiterate.